26 replies to this topic

[petestenning]

I have found an interesting fact while looking at a program for the Thruxton Final meeting in 1975.

The points table for the BP Super Visco F3 Championship , there is not one Englishman in the top ten.?

There was talent there , namely Tim Brise, Steve South, so the obvious thought is why did they not race/finish as often as they should.

Was the foreign talent better , the cars were unreliable/difficult to drive ?

Top ten were
Gunnar Nilsson, Sweden, undoubted talent that was never to show his full potential
Danny Sullivan, USA, Indy car driver of note
Alex Ribiero, Brazil , He seemed to disappear from these shores at least .
Patrick Neve, Belgium, drove the unusual Safir with some success.
Larry Perkins, Australia , better known in his home country where he was a top talent.
Ingo Hoffman Brazil, went on to F2 but them disappeared.
Eddie Cheever, USA, Went all the way to F1
Richard Hawkins, NZ, the only one with any real connection the UK as he lived here .
Pierre Dieudonne, Belgium, Much known as a saloon car driver of talent BMW mainly.
Conny Andersson, Sweden, a man who visited the UK to race at some of the bigger meetings always in F3 when i saw him.

And just to show how bad this was Andersson only had 12 points

[MCS]

I have found an interesting fact while looking at a program for the Thruxton Final meeting in 1975.

The points table for the BP Super Visco F3 Championship , there is not one Englishman in the top ten.?

There was talent there , namely Tim Brise, Steve South, so the obvious thought is why did they not race/finish as often as they should.

Was the foreign talent better , the cars were unreliable/difficult to drive ?

Simple answer - they couldn't get the money. Dick Parsons and Bob Arnott also raced in the 1975 championship, but only when they could afford to...

[petestenning]

Whilst i agree with Parsons not having a budget , Nor did Chris Barnett have a backer afaik, did Arnott not have backing from Swansong ?

Also Rupert Keegan surely had a budget from B.A.F.

[zoff2005]

In 1975 the quickest British drivers were in Formula Atlantic. Tony Brise for example.
Marcus

[petestenning]

Marcus that is a very valid point about Atlantic.

[Alan Cox]

In 1975 the quickest British drivers were in Formula Atlantic. Tony Brise for example.
Marcus

Having progressed there via F3 in '72 and '73.

[Phil Rainford]

In 1975 the quickest British drivers were in Formula Atlantic. Tony Brise for example.
Marcus

And racing in F1 in 75


PAR

[Phil Rainford]

Agree with the Formula Atlantic point

Also it was not as if British drivers had not moved onwards and upwards

Look at those who drove a Grand Prix car in 1975

Jim Crawford
John Watson
Brian Henton
Mike Wilds
Bob Evans
Tom Pryce
Dave Morgan
Tony Brise
James Hunt
Tony Trimmer

PAR

Edited by Phil Rainford, 04 March 2012 - 12:31.

[David McKinney]

Was 1975 one of those years there was more than one F3 championship?

And if so, did the Brits concentrate on the other one?

[Tim Murray]

No, there was only the BP championship, plus half a dozen non-championship events. After F3's very poor 1974 season I think any aspiring Britsih driver would have perceived the competitive F Atlantic series as a much better bet at the start of 1975.

Edited by Tim Murray, 04 March 2012 - 12:17.

[arttidesco]

Was 1975 one of those years there was more than one F3 championship?

And if so, did the Brits concentrate on the other one?

IIRC the (new ?) 2 litre British F3 was too expensive for local talent to compete and the two Formula Atlantic Championships were the more viable option.

Atlantic racers Brise, Crawford and Nilsson, who drove a March in F3 and a Chevron in Atlantic, all made F1 starts by the end of '75.

[alansart]

No, there was only the BP championship, plus half a dozen non-championship events. After F3's very poor 1974 season I think any aspiring Britsih driver would have perceived the competitive F Atlantic series as a much better bet at the start of 1975.

The 74 season wasn't good with some races being mixed with F4 and Monoposto to fill the grids so it's hardly surprising that there were defections to Atlantics.

[Allen Brown]

I blame Autosport.

Their coverage of the 1974 F3 season was so poor that it would have been very difficult for any British driver to get sponsorship for a season of F3 in 1975. Not the same problem in other countries.

[Phil Rainford]

I have found an interesting fact while looking at a program for the Thruxton Final meeting in 1975.

The points table for the BP Super Visco F3 Championship , there is not one Englishman in the top ten.?

There was talent there , namely Tim Brise, Steve South, so the obvious thought is why did they not race/finish as often as they should.

Was the foreign talent better , the cars were unreliable/difficult to drive ?

Top ten were
Gunnar Nilsson, Sweden, undoubted talent that was never to show his full potential
Danny Sullivan, USA, Indy car driver of note
Alex Ribiero, Brazil , He seemed to disappear from these shores at least .
Patrick Neve, Belgium, drove the unusual Safir with some success.
Larry Perkins, Australia , better known in his home country where he was a top talent.
Ingo Hoffman Brazil, went on to F2 but them disappeared.
Eddie Cheever, USA, Went all the way to F1
Richard Hawkins, NZ, the only one with any real connection the UK as he lived here .
Pierre Dieudonne, Belgium, Much known as a saloon car driver of talent BMW mainly.
Conny Andersson, Sweden, a man who visited the UK to race at some of the bigger meetings always in F3 when i saw him.

And just to show how bad this was Andersson only had 12 points

Looking at this list the top seven all went on the race in GPs....


PAR

[Allen Brown]

I've brought this forward as this seems a good time:

British Formula 3 1974

Also relevant is British Formula 3 1975.

[David McKinney]

I blame Autosport.

Their coverage of the 1974 F3 season was so poor that it would have been very difficult for any British driver to get sponsorship for a season of F3 in 1975. Not the same problem in other countries.

Chicken and egg. I think the coverage was poor because the quality of the field was poor (Henton was the only one of the contenders I would have predicted in 1973 to be a front-runner in 1974)

[ReWind]

Ingo Hoffman Brazil, went on to F2 but then disappeared.

Not an accurate assessment as Ingo Hoffmann had a long motor racing career in his native Brazil and enjoyed huge success there.

[petestenning]

Not an accurate assessment as Ingo Hoffmann had a long motor racing career in his native Brazil and enjoyed huge success there.

I agree i was meaning in Europe , but did not make that clear. TBH Hoffmann was fairly rapid in F2 when i saw him compete.

[MCS]

Whilst i agree with Parsons not having a budget , Nor did Chris Barnett have a backer afaik, did Arnott not have backing from Swansong ?

Also Rupert Keegan surely had a budget from B.A.F.

Barnett (I think) ran out of money, Arnott didn't have a lot from Swansong Records and missed a number of races, Keegan had plenty and was learning - witness the number of nosecones he went through during the season - and Tim Brise I simply can't remember off the top of my head, unless he appeared in a Modus later in the season. Stephen South struggled not only with a limited budget, but also the under-developed one-off Ray, finishing the season in somebody else's March 753 (John Stokes' Bogarts of Birmingham car), when Stokes decided to try and give the Englishman a better chance.

Edited by MCS, 04 March 2012 - 20:08.

[LittleChris]

I agree i was meaning in Europe , but did not make that clear. TBH Hoffmann was fairly rapid in F2 when i saw him compete.

Fastest lap at Rouen F2 in 1977 and 1978 which is a pretty good indicator of someone with talent. I remember him being highly rated at the tiime but the infrequent Fittipaldi drives completely screwed his career. Shame, as in a decent car I think he could've been well up at the front of the field
.

[arttidesco]

Fastest lap at Rouen F2 in 1977 and 1978 which is a pretty good indicator of someone with talent. I remember him being highly rated at the tiime but the infrequent Fittipaldi drives completely screwed his career. Shame, as in a decent car I think he could've been well up at the front of the field
.

12 National Stock Car Championships show he never lost his appetite for the sport or winning

[Marc Sproule]

Here's a couple of snaps of Brise from '75, he was driving Teddy Yip's F5000 car in the US.

http://www.flickr.co...157626135973193

http://www.flickr.co...57626135973193/

[Alan Cox]

... and Tim Brise I simply can't remember off the top of my head, unless he appeared in a Modus later in the season.

Tim Brise began the season at an April Silverstone round and did take a seventh and a sixth at Silverstone in August with a works Modus, but otherwise didn't have much success. He was also entered at various mid-season meetings with an Elden.

[Stephen W]

Tim Brise began the season at an April Silverstone round and did take a seventh and a sixth at Silverstone in August with a works Modus, but otherwise didn't have much success. He was also entered at various mid-season meetings with an Elden.

Wasn't he also driving in FAtlantic at that meeting?

[john winfield]

Fastest lap at Rouen F2 in 1977 and 1978 which is a pretty good indicator of someone with talent. I remember him being highly rated at the tiime but the infrequent Fittipaldi drives completely screwed his career. Shame, as in a decent car I think he could've been well up at the front of the field
.

Quite right Chris. I wonder too, what if.....?

I was at Rouen in 1977, watching from the exit of Nouveau Monde with a view back up to the Trois-Freres chicane. Hoffmann picked up a puncture in the first corner accident, lost a lot of time on that long first lap and called at the pits for a tyre change. What followed was one of the best drives that I've ever seen. Sure, the Ralts were very good that weekend - Cheever was untroubled at the front with Tambay and Arnoux out - but Ingo drove magnificently. 37 laps of all-out commitment! From miles behind on the second lap he finished up fifth, faster than anybody, on the ragged edge, throwing up dust every lap at the chicane, thundering down to the hairpin before screaming away up the hill.
If he could do that at Rouen, perhaps he would have enjoyed Formula One a few years earlier, at the Nurburgring, Clermont-Ferrand and Spa!

[ChrisJson]

Looking at this list the top seven all went on the race in GPs....


PAR

...and the tenth!

[Mallory Dan]

'75 was also a dreadful year economically in Britain, £££ were hard to come by. But if you look at the Brits who did F3 that year, none were ever anything like 'top-line' drivers, South being the exception.