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Is it time for Ferrari to replace it's management?


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#101 Mandzipop

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 23:38

The media outcry is based on an initial statement made by Fry with regard to internal targets and instead of posting the crux of the articles you go and post the sensational headlines publications make as basis for your judgement.

Kind of ironic you calling it a comedic farce it it not...


This is the problem. They have internal targets and nobody knows what they are. They know they haven't met what the internal targets are, but does that mean that they are off the pace? The problem is that they have targets to work for as does every team. This is not about race wins, this is about overall performance targets. They don't know what the opposition will be doing so they cant say I want to be 1 second quicker than the Red Bull when they have no idea how good the Red Bull will be.

This is the case for every management team in any company. Regardless of the nature of the business. Most companies have targets and usually have a fair idea of where their competition is. F1 isn't like that. The management team set the targets and employ the best staff available to achieve those targets. They also look to gain financial sponsorship from above to get the tools they need. Everyone says that Stefano is too nice etc... That is the media face of Stefano. For all we know, behind closed doors he might be very different. A TP is a manager and a manager in all companies does not usually get very far by throwing the toys out of the pram. Every TP has to be a clever negotiator. Stefano might be very good in that area. But what he needs to do is to put a bit more emphasis on migration.

Ferrari are in the stage of migration from being dependant on track testing to using more CFD and windtunnel technology. It is a very slow process. I am learning that with my own job and I am at the bottom of the food chain. Ferrari had 2 options. Get the facilities then get the people to operate them. Or get the right people in place and then invest in the right tools. However they need the expertise of the people who know what the right tools are in the first place to get them. Its like me buying an SLR camera without advice. You cant say, thats more expensive so it will obviously be better. When in all truth that might not be the case.

People say that Ferrari became more Italian. That was probably not intentional, but more likely consequential of the loss of the Brawn/Todt era. Byrne is still onboard. People want immediate results, but Ferrari are in a migration process that will take years to sort out. The entire methodolgy has to change and it ain't going to happen overnight. LdM is the one who hires and fires the big names. Stefano deals with the ones that are on the slightly lower end of the food chain. He doesn't fire the big names. He gives reports to LdM about their progress in their field.

Ferrari know they need improved facilities and they are trying to re-structure that. Calling for heads to roll when people don't know what is going on behind the scenes is 1 dimensional as that is the media face. Stability is the key to success and they need to keep that. They have to get the right people in place. If Adrian Newey said thats it I'm off to Ferrari, it could make things worse as Ferrari might not have the structure in place to enable him to function at his best.

Ok I think I've already had my rant.  ;)

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#102 WhiteBlue

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 00:06

I personally think Tombazis will be fired if Ferrari fail to deliver a championship this year. Fry is too new for him to go anywhere. I also have a strange feeling Domi is safe.

You could be very right with that prediction. But it would again be doctoring symptoms rather than the underlying problem. It is the chairman's job to analyse the need for resources and make sure they act on it. IMO Domi can't attract the necessary talent because the talent will know of the blame culture in Ferrari and that is ultimately Monte's failure.


#103 Sakae

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 00:22

This is the problem. They have internal targets and nobody knows what they are.

Are you sure about that? I don't, that's true, but SF employees might. You guys are heating up far too quickly. Lets wait at least until lights go off, FFS.

#104 zyphro

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 00:32

I personally think Tombazis will be fired if Ferrari fail to deliver a championship this year. Fry is too new for him to go anywhere. I also have a strange feeling Domi is safe.


He is welcome with Aldo to Mercedes GP. :)

#105 zyphro

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 00:34

Does anyone know what happened to Dyer (after the scapegoating by Domi)?

#106 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:14

Are you sure about that? I don't, that's true, but SF employees might.

Well off course SF employees do :stoned: I'm sure she meant *we* don't know.

You guys are heating up far too quickly. Lets wait at least until lights go off, FFS.


That's what she said as well, no?

#107 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:20

You could be very right with that prediction. But it would again be doctoring symptoms rather than the underlying problem. It is the chairman's job to analyse the need for resources and make sure they act on it.


Disagree. Dom, or anyone in a managerial position like his, cannot possibly know the details of what's needed. His job is to get this information from the leaders of the respective departments, work with the team to consolidate the various needs into a coherent plan, and make sure that the engineers get what they need. I can't see that he has failed in this.

IMO Domi can't attract the necessary talent because the talent will know of the blame culture in Ferrari and that is ultimately Monte's failure.


You keep saying this in the face of the fact that they have hired considerable amounts of top notch talent, like Hamashima (brilliant move), Fry, Tombazis (who knows all about the culture in Ferrari and still came back), and lots of others. Not everyone they might want is available for various reasons, but that's always the case. I can't see you blame RB or McL for failing to hire Hamashima.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 11 March 2012 - 01:39.


#108 AlexS

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:26

Domenicalli is there because it suits Montezemolo.

Btw the last soap opera coming from Domenicalli is this:

Mejoran las relaciones entre Alonso y Massa
Sobre el compañero de Alonso en la escudería, Domenicali cree que "Massa ha madurado" y que su relación con el piloto español también ha mejorado: "por primera vez han hablado por teléfono tras las pruebas para compartir impresiones", indica.


"The relations between Alonso and Massa improved and for first time they talked by telephone between races to share opinions. "

http://www.marca.com...1331373155.html

Is this a way to manage a team?

Edited by AlexS, 11 March 2012 - 01:27.


#109 Sakae

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:40

Well off course SF employees do :stoned: I'm sure she meant *we* don't know.



That's what she said as well, no?

She? Ehmm, sorry. :blush:

#110 ScuderiaSV1

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:41

You could be very right with that prediction. But it would again be doctoring symptoms rather than the underlying problem. It is the chairman's job to analyse the need for resources and make sure they act on it. IMO Domi can't attract the necessary talent because the talent will know of the blame culture in Ferrari and that is ultimately Monte's failure.


I'm struggling to comprehend why this is all Monte's fault. It is believed Ferrari have a larger budget than any other team on the grid. Have we ever know Monte as a man to withhold resources from his squad if he felt they were necessary?

As I mentioned in my prior post.. I think it was a genius move to recruit Hamashima.

I think the bigger problem is Ferrari didn't adequately prepare themselves for a transition from on-track testing for their car development when the development ban came into effect. If we have heard Monte ramble on about two things in the media, they are:
1. lack of in-season testing
2. current regulations rely too heavily on aero

I think these two points highlight what is hampering Ferrari the most. They failed to adequately prepare for #1 because they had a test track. And could bang out as many kilometres they felt necessary prior to the testing ban. While other teams were all ready developing their cars by other means (CFD, simulators, wind-tunnel) due to the fact they couldn't on-track test like Ferrari.. Thus, when the development ban came into effect: Ferrari were on the backfoot. Do you think it's any coincidence that Ferrari have struggled to match the performance of the top competitors since 2009? I don't mention 2008 because they car was being designed the year prior.

As for #2, I think it is explained in the prior paragraph. The over-reliance of on-track testing and lack of proactivity to convert to off-track data to simulate what happens on track is being highlighted. Ferrari had to re-calibrate the wind tunnel last year. Now they have to re-design their sidepods because their off-track data still is not synced up adequately to the on-track data. From what I saw in testing: Ferrari seemed to be running with external instruments (i.e. periscope) with greater frequency than the other teams. Would they being doing this if the data was synced up adequately with what was being seen from CFD/wind-tunnel? But the major question is: is this the fault of Monte? Who should be taking the blame?

Should it be Domi for not putting the correct engineers in place to help the transition from a huge reliance of on-track data development to off-track? I think the Pat Fry hire was a knee-jerk reaction and influenced by the fact that their off-track data is not correlating to the track like it should. And Fry hasn't been around long enough to judge his impact objectively..

#111 itsademo

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:53

Ok, I tell you what. Let's have the FOM monies divided equally between the teams regardless of constructors points and while we're at it take the team with lowest amount of sponsorship revenue and set that as the ceiling for all teams. That way everybody has the same resources and we see what the sport comes to in the name of fairness. More importantly let's see if Red Bull are competitive under these conditions and able to afford their engineering team. Seems you have forgotten that Red Bull has probably outspent even Ferrari in the last two years.

Furthermore, Montezemolo has been through it all... The success and the drought so I can't see how removing him will change their fortunes other than benefit your kind because you don't like him. Give me a break.

No hows about something really fair and what Ferrari will fight against untill they realise they are dinosars.
Prize money basede on your results THIS SEASON not what you did a decade ago but as that would not give Ferrari an unfair advantage they will never agree to being judged on what they do now just like their fans ignore the fact its directors who decide direction and have final say on all employees so if the wrong people are employeed directors should take the fall.
After all isnt that why they caim to be worth so much they set the direction a company move in.
Give you a break no probs enjoy but give a person who is paid millions a break when he gets it so very wrong for so long no thanks

#112 Sakae

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 02:00

I'm struggling to comprehend why this is all Monte's fault. It is believed Ferrari have a larger budget than any other team on the grid. Have we ever know Monte as a man to withhold resources from his squad if he felt they were necessary?

I read somewhere on this RC stats showing SF leading the pack in spending by significant amount, and whilst money cannot buy you happines, surely as hek Dome cannot complain that team is underfunded. That argument simply is off the table.

#113 Octavian

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 02:40

Bring in Flavio.

Like him or not (I don't!!) he knows how to win.

#114 WhiteBlue

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 02:52

I'm struggling to comprehend why this is all Monte's fault. It is believed Ferrari have a larger budget than any other team on the grid. Have we ever know Monte as a man to withhold resources from his squad if he felt they were necessary?

As I mentioned in my prior post.. I think it was a genius move to recruit Hamashima.

I think the bigger problem is Ferrari didn't adequately prepare themselves for a transition from on-track testing for their car development when the development ban came into effect. If we have heard Monte ramble on about two things in the media, they are:
1. lack of in-season testing
2. current regulations rely too heavily on aero

I think these two points highlight what is hampering Ferrari the most. They failed to adequately prepare for #1 because they had a test track. And could bang out as many kilometres they felt necessary prior to the testing ban. While other teams were all ready developing their cars by other means (CFD, simulators, wind-tunnel) due to the fact they couldn't on-track test like Ferrari.. Thus, when the development ban came into effect: Ferrari were on the backfoot. Do you think it's any coincidence that Ferrari have struggled to match the performance of the top competitors since 2009? I don't mention 2008 because they car was being designed the year prior.

As for #2, I think it is explained in the prior paragraph. The over-reliance of on-track testing and lack of proactivity to convert to off-track data to simulate what happens on track is being highlighted. Ferrari had to re-calibrate the wind tunnel last year. Now they have to re-design their sidepods because their off-track data still is not synced up adequately to the on-track data. From what I saw in testing: Ferrari seemed to be running with external instruments (i.e. periscope) with greater frequency than the other teams. Would they being doing this if the data was synced up adequately with what was being seen from CFD/wind-tunnel? But the major question is: is this the fault of Monte? Who should be taking the blame?

Should it be Domi for not putting the correct engineers in place to help the transition from a huge reliance of on-track data development to off-track? I think the Pat Fry hire was a knee-jerk reaction and influenced by the fact that their off-track data is not correlating to the track like it should. And Fry hasn't been around long enough to judge his impact objectively..


Very astute thinking! But I think you are missing a point here. FOTA was founded in spring/summer 2009 and their basic resource restriction policy was clear in May 2009 when it was outlined by Mercedes. Three months later the whole shebang was codified and given the seal of the FiA and the Concord agreement. Precisely on August 1st 2009 all the strategies of man power reduction, abolishing the test teams, prohibiting track testing and relying on brains to performance rather than $$$$$ to performance were known to the last Iota.

Now I ask you why the man on top of the pile and chairman of FOTA did not ready his organization for the new political realities that he must have known were materializing for F1 due to the power equilibrium that he was experiencing first hand? Even two years after that date Domenicali told the the international press that Ferrari had not made the transition from wasting tons of resources on every known issue to a lean and sharp organization that could be competitive under the conditions negotiated with the other teams.

My answer to that is simple. Monte did not wish to see what was the reality. He had become so much used to having the governing body wield to his wishes that he simply did not believe the new policy of RRA would actually be implemented. So the fat cat management was continued at Ferrari instead of the huge efficiency improvements that all other top teams implemented. They obviously thought that they could avert the implementation of the RRA plan by politicking. To a certain extend that became true. They significantly jacked up the original plan and sabotaged the FOTA attempt to include engines in the RRA.

During the course of these years Ferrari kept falling behind other teams in the engineering efficiency race and all they do now is complaining that their views are not shared by others. Any half intelligent guy should have understood that the mainly UK based teams would associate to deny Ferrari some of their unfair advantages by voting them down. So a strategic thinker would have seen the need to adjust to the new reality instead of complaining all the time about it. Monte failed very badly in that task. He kept blaming his people and kept firing the weakest links. I predict that he will continue to do so in the future and that is going to be Ferrari's downfall.

They need a positive thinking leader with the ability of reinforcing the good and motivating his people instead of making excuses for his own failures and firing guys who are not really in a position to achieve the unachievable.


#115 ScuderiaSV1

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:39

Very astute thinking! But I think you are missing a point here. FOTA was founded in spring/summer 2009 and their basic resource restriction policy was clear in May 2009 when it was outlined by Mercedes. Three months later the whole shebang was codified and given the seal of the FiA and the Concord agreement. Precisely on August 1st 2009 all the strategies of man power reduction, abolishing the test teams, prohibiting track testing and relying on brains to performance rather than $$$$$ to performance were known to the last Iota.

Now I ask you why the man on top of the pile and chairman of FOTA did not ready his organization for the new political realities that he must have known were materializing for F1 due to the power equilibrium that he was experiencing first hand? Even two years after that date Domenicali told the the international press that Ferrari had not made the transition from wasting tons of resources on every known issue to a lean and sharp organization that could be competitive under the conditions negotiated with the other teams.

My answer to that is simple. Monte did not wish to see what was the reality. He had become so much used to having the governing body wield to his wishes that he simply did not believe the new policy of RRA would actually be implemented. So the fat cat management was continued at Ferrari instead of the huge efficiency improvements that all other top teams implemented. They obviously thought that they could avert the implementation of the RRA plan by politicking. To a certain extend that became true. They significantly jacked up the original plan and sabotaged the FOTA attempt to include engines in the RRA.

During the course of these years Ferrari kept falling behind other teams in the engineering efficiency race and all they do now is complaining that their views are not shared by others. Any half intelligent guy should have understood that the mainly UK based teams would associate to deny Ferrari some of their unfair advantages by voting them down. So a strategic thinker would have seen the need to adjust to the new reality instead of complaining all the time about it. Monte failed very badly in that task. He kept blaming his people and kept firing the weakest links. I predict that he will continue to do so in the future and that is going to be Ferrari's downfall.

They need a positive thinking leader with the ability of reinforcing the good and motivating his people instead of making excuses for his own failures and firing guys who are not really in a position to achieve the unachievable.


At the end of the day.. I think we are in an "agree to agree" situation. :stoned:

I'll be honest.. I don't follow the politicking in F1 as closely as you do. I was aware of some of the facts that you posted.

But does Monte deserve to be canned just for this? Given what he achieved as Ferrari chairman from 2000 - 2007, is this enough to cut him loose as chairman? Or should Domi share some of the blame? I'm not astute to the inner workings of Ferrari. But I don't think a blind eye can be turned to the success that Monte has brought to the Scuderia in the last decade. Based off of what you say: he took a mighty risky and the gamble didn't pay off. But he has a big rules overhaul in the near future. And arguably the best driver on the grid lining up in the #5 car this year.

#116 SeanValen

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 04:21

Ferrari challenged for the championship in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008,, 2010

Ferrari did not challenge in 2005, 2009 and in 2011

Post Schumacher's ferrari, they've done well, and 2008 could of gone either way, so could of 2010.


If Ferrari are not challenging for wins to give them enough points for a championship challenge for like 2-3 years straight, then there's a issue big one.


They were the most successful team last decade, and this decade is still young. But I don't expect a repeat of last years decade, that sort of thing is unique, and it's great ferrari started the century off winning in style, Schumacher'S Ferrari team set the bench high that any season where ferrari are not challenging, there suddenly is a crisis, where though before ferrari and schumacher's success, it was kinda expected ferrari to be up against other big teams and ferrari to get 1 or 2 wins was unique, Prost's 1990 season was the odd one out in the drought of ferrari before Schuey won 2000.

Edited by SeanValen, 11 March 2012 - 14:04.


#117 pingu666

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 04:27

I know its ferrari and all, but shit, they won the title in 07, contended strongly in 08, 09 wasnt that great, 10 contended for title strongly, 11 mixed year.

winning a competative title is 25% personel, 25% car, 50% luck. so contending means alot.

#118 Ferrari2183

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 05:38

This is the problem. They have internal targets and nobody knows what they are. They know they haven't met what the internal targets are, but does that mean that they are off the pace? The problem is that they have targets to work for as does every team. This is not about race wins, this is about overall performance targets. They don't know what the opposition will be doing so they cant say I want to be 1 second quicker than the Red Bull when they have no idea how good the Red Bull will be.

This is the case for every management team in any company. Regardless of the nature of the business. Most companies have targets and usually have a fair idea of where their competition is. F1 isn't like that. The management team set the targets and employ the best staff available to achieve those targets. They also look to gain financial sponsorship from above to get the tools they need. Everyone says that Stefano is too nice etc... That is the media face of Stefano. For all we know, behind closed doors he might be very different. A TP is a manager and a manager in all companies does not usually get very far by throwing the toys out of the pram. Every TP has to be a clever negotiator. Stefano might be very good in that area. But what he needs to do is to put a bit more emphasis on migration.

Ferrari are in the stage of migration from being dependant on track testing to using more CFD and windtunnel technology. It is a very slow process. I am learning that with my own job and I am at the bottom of the food chain. Ferrari had 2 options. Get the facilities then get the people to operate them. Or get the right people in place and then invest in the right tools. However they need the expertise of the people who know what the right tools are in the first place to get them. Its like me buying an SLR camera without advice. You cant say, thats more expensive so it will obviously be better. When in all truth that might not be the case.

People say that Ferrari became more Italian. That was probably not intentional, but more likely consequential of the loss of the Brawn/Todt era. Byrne is still onboard. People want immediate results, but Ferrari are in a migration process that will take years to sort out. The entire methodolgy has to change and it ain't going to happen overnight. LdM is the one who hires and fires the big names. Stefano deals with the ones that are on the slightly lower end of the food chain. He doesn't fire the big names. He gives reports to LdM about their progress in their field.

Ferrari know they need improved facilities and they are trying to re-structure that. Calling for heads to roll when people don't know what is going on behind the scenes is 1 dimensional as that is the media face. Stability is the key to success and they need to keep that. They have to get the right people in place. If Adrian Newey said thats it I'm off to Ferrari, it could make things worse as Ferrari might not have the structure in place to enable him to function at his best.

Ok I think I've already had my rant. ;)

:up:

I'm not Domenicali's biggest fan but calling for his head, especially after the interview published yesterday where he outlines Ferrari's difficulty with regards to CFD, is absurd. Calling for Montezemolo's even more so.

#119 bourbon

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 06:11

The last thing Ferrari needs is Briatore - actually the last thing F1 needs is having that fellow back. What he did was unforgiveable.

I am not a fan of Ferrari - quite the contrary actually - so my words have to be taken with a grain of salt. However, I never believe them when they cry about how woeful their machinery is. They will probably come out challenging from the start.

On the other hand, if they go on to have a 3rd bad year, I don't know how they are going to contain the Tifosi. It seems to me that they will be up to their necks with Dom, the top engineers/designers, Alonso, Massa and perhaps even Luca - although I imagine if he starts in with the usual firing, the people will be appeased.

If they are not just hyping to confound the other teams and gain hype on day 1 from an overjoyed Tifosi, amazed journos and wry competitors - then perhaps they should just chill, put their heads down and get to work on improving the 2012. What else are they gonna do?

Edited by Gilles4Ever, 11 March 2012 - 14:50.


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#120 HoldenRT

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 06:42

I sympathise with Ferrari, because they seem to be under the most pressure of anyone in the paddock. Especially from their own fans, the Tifosi and Italy in general.

It seems their own fans give their staff many sleepless nights and makes them do drastic and desperate measures (like Indy 2005 win).

But then.. Ferrari people like Luca start talking as if Ferrari rule the world and the most important F1 team and every other team should comprimise to make them happy and let them win.. and then I feel less sorry for them.

Since 2009 rule changes, Ferrari have been a big dissappointment. Especially when setting fast testing times and then being behind in early races. They are still Ferrari though, so they'll never be tooooo bad. I have no idea what the problem is within their organistation, and I won't claim to.

Desperate is a word that comes to mind though. It's similar to Williams.. will they be better off without Sam Michael? Who knows.. maybe the problem is the culture within the whole team that needs changing rather then one specific person.

#121 Konsta

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:54

Ferrari has gone exactly to the direction that it was universally expected after the management/team went all-Italian and that is down.

Now the only way up for the team is to replace Domenicali who after his promotion hasn't been capable of doing nothing else than making up scapegoats (Raikkonen, Costa) to prolong his career.


Precisely. Domenicali seems to be a two-faced failure. He hasn´t been honest at all - the way he handled (or was forced to handle) Kimi´s case was pathetic. I am sincerely glad that he has not achieved anything.

#122 eff1fan

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 13:47

The media outcry is based on an initial statement made by Fry with regard to internal targets and instead of posting the crux of the articles you go and post the sensational headlines publications make as basis for your judgement.

Kind of ironic you calling it a comedic farce it it not...


My judgement is based strictly on Ferrari's management performance in the past few years.

#123 Dolph

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 13:53

Ferrari challenged for the championship in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008,, 2010

Ferrari did not challenge in 2005 and in 2011

Post Schumacher's ferrari, they've done well, and 2008 could of gone either way, so could of 2010.


If Ferrari are not challenging for wins to give them enough points for a championship challenge for like 2-3 years straight, then there's a issue big one.


They were the most successful team last decade, and this decade is still young. But I don't expect a repeat of last years decade, that sort of thing is unique, and it's great ferrari started the century off winning in style, Schumacher'S Ferrari team set the bench high that any season where ferrari are not challenging, there suddenly is a crisis, where though before ferrari and schumacher's success, it was kinda expected ferrari to be up against other big teams and ferrari to get 1 or 2 wins was unique, Prost's 1990 season was the odd one out in the drought of ferrari before Schuey won 2000.


2009?

#124 SeanValen

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 14:03

2009?



Yeah add that too. Went back to re-edit. Dolph legend :up: :smoking:

Edited by SeanValen, 11 March 2012 - 14:04.


#125 cilurnum

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 15:00

Ferrari has gone exactly to the direction that it was universally expected after the management/team went all-Italian and that is down.

Even when Todt, Brawn and Schumacher were there they spent a great deal of their time fending off politics and there was an unease underneath all the Ferrari celebrations at that time. When he won his first title at Ferrari the reaction to his 'conducting' of the Italian national anthem was a sign of what was under the surface.

#126 Ferrari2183

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 15:05

My judgement is based strictly on Ferrari's management performance in the past few years.

And how did you measure this performance?

#127 SirRacer

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 15:11

I'm reading in twitter that Alonso is the only one in Ferrari (of the big guys) with a secured place for 2013...

#128 ScuderiaSV1

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 15:53

I'm reading in twitter that Alonso is the only one in Ferrari (of the big guys) with a secured place for 2013...


Can you post the tweet, please?

#129 Menace

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 16:08

This should anwser your question... what a spineless man...

Asked if he felt his job was in jeopardy if Ferrari struggled, Domenicali replied: "My role is different from that of a coach. I don't design the car, but I always feel called into question."



:lol:

#130 SirRacer

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 16:09

Can you post the tweet, please?

Yes:

FA @joseluisf1
Según Umberto Zapelloni, Fernando Alonso sería el único con puesto seguro, Domenicali podría ser despedido si el F2012 no es competitivo

Translation:
Umberto Zapelloni says that Fernando Alonso would be the only one with secured place in the team. Domenicali could be fired if the F2012 is not competitive

#131 ScuderiaSV1

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 18:39

Yes:

FA @joseluisf1
Según Umberto Zapelloni, Fernando Alonso sería el único con puesto seguro, Domenicali podría ser despedido si el F2012 no es competitivo

Translation:
Umberto Zapelloni says that Fernando Alonso would be the only one with secured place in the team. Domenicali could be fired if the F2012 is not competitive


I've seen quotes from this Jose Luis on other forums.. Is he part of the Ferrari team? Or an outsider with inside information?

Also: I'm not sure if many here read espnf1. But here's an article on Domi:
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/72624.html

Here's a highlight:

"I've got pressure on my back, which is as it should be," Domenicali said. "I am not the one who designs the car: my task is to give my people everything they need in terms of organisation and structure. Having said that, I am very much aware of my responsibilities. There is pressure, but I feel the support of the whole team and of president Montezemolo."



#132 SirRacer

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 18:42

I've seen quotes from this Jose Luis on other forums.. Is he part of the Ferrari team? Or an outsider with inside information?

Also: I'm not sure if many here read espnf1. But here's an article on Domi:
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/72624.html

Here's a highlight:

Jose Luis always talk about "someone" that gives him the info, so I wouldn't think he works at Ferrari...

#133 engel

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 18:46

I m not fully up to date on Italian politics but has Luca given up on the whole running for Prime Minister thing?

#134 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 20:17

He also doesn`t do race strategy nor pit stops. What exactly does he do ? He`s useless.


Does this extend to Whitmarsh and Horner, who also don't design the cars nor calculate race strategy and pitstops? Come on, there are million things to do in the day-to-day running of an organization who employs hundreds of people. Sometimes it seems certain people here have never had a job, seriously.

@SirRacer regarding the Umberto Zapelloni quote: that's not terribly adventurous, may cat could have predicted that.

#135 Ferrari2183

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 20:50

Does this extend to Whitmarsh and Horner, who also don't design the cars nor calculate race strategy and pitstops? Come on, there are million things to do in the day-to-day running of an organization who employs hundreds of people. Sometimes it seems certain people here have never had a job, seriously.

@SirRacer regarding the Umberto Zapelloni quote: that's not terribly adventurous, may cat could have predicted that.

This thread is bordering on the ridiculous. McLaren haven't reached the heights they did in the 90's and yet nobody is calling for heads to roll. I really don't know what people want from Domenicali and Montezemolo, whom after all has been said and done were part of probably the greatest dominance ever seen in the sport and have had only 3 poor seasons over the last decade or so.

We hear excuses like political machinations, unfair advantages etc etc but it sounds like an excuse for others poor performances if you ask me.

People are saying things like Costa and Dyer were made a scape goats but the truth of the matter is that Dyer was not only responsible for the Abu Dhabi blunder but many in between and Costa never got a grip on the tyre heating issues for... Wait for it... 5 years. Anyway, none of them were dismissed by Ferrari they eventually chose to leave on their own accord.

#136 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 20:57

Q&A with Bernie. I must say I agree with his remark about Ferrari's management.

Q: Ferrari seem to be in a rut. What do you see as the reasons for this? Do you think a new start would get them winning again, like when Jean Todt took over in 1993?
BE: No, because Ferrari’s problems have nothing to do with the team management. I am absolutely sure about that. I see problems on the technical side - in the aero department. Instead of firing someone they rather should hire someone - Adrian Newey!

Q: Hardly anybody would argue about Fernando Alonso’s skills, but what about his team mate Felipe Massa?

BE: One thing is clear - Felipe is not really blessed by luck, but he is fast. I rather think that it is a question of alternatives at Ferrari: who from the available drivers is faster than Felipe? I don’t see anybody. But I am sure that Robert Kubica would by now be sitting in a Ferrari had he not had his terrible rally accident.

Link

IMO, Ferrari's management is fine. That's not where the team is lacking. As Stefano said, he does not build the car, he is responsible for managing the team and making sure they have what they need. They've made various upgrades over the past couple of years, and still need a few more. CFD simulation being one of them. And they're working on it. As for aero, they are searching for that as well. But as it's been said, it's hard to find the good ones. Not that Tombazis is bad, but he needs help.

#137 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 22:17

I'm sorry the point went over you head.


What was your point, pray tell. I can't seen any in what you wrote.

He also doesn`t do race strategy nor pit stops. What exactly does he do ? He`s useless.


Couldn't help yourself. right ?


If you pretend to think that the managing director of an organisation who is responsible for hundreds of people and hundreds of millions of euros is useless because he neither designs the car nor does race strategy or pitstops, no I could not help myself.


#138 itsademo

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 22:45

IMHO, Ferrari's management is fine. That's not where the team is lacking.

snip
the management is not lacking snip...
the management is not lacking snip...
from the management
what else would you expect others are shat?

Sorry the head decides what the body does not the other way round, would you cut off a foot because the brain does not give it direction, rather than admit the brain decided on the wrong direction?
seams some think, those in power do no wrong no matter what direction they tell those below to take, or the outcome

Edited by itsademo, 11 March 2012 - 22:46.


#139 Ferrari2183

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 22:56

A few questions for you. Do you really think the best criteria to select managers is by their nationality ? Do you also think that firing tech people is the best way to solve problems (especially when the same people had performed more than well in the recent past)? Let's take Aldo Costa for instance. He was fired and Ferrari discovered, last year, that their real problem is correlation and simulation. They still have the same problems and Aldo is helping Mercedes now. Chris Dyer, a highly sucessfull engineer while working with Michael, was made the scape goat for 2010 as if Alonso didn't have any say on his strategy. Heck, Alonso was brought to Ferrari to lead the team.

It's easy, and stupid, to say I don't design the car or I don't do strategy. It's the 'save your own ass' style of management. Don't you agree that when highly capable and proved people start to underperform, the best thing to do is try and find out what's wrong with system and fix it ?

If you think there's nothing wrong with this management style then I agree with you - this thread is bordering on the ridiculous.

Nationality on its own is not a good enough criteria but then again neither of us know enough to say this is what happened with any certainty and whether we like it or not there are corporations out there who have been very successful employing this very tactic. The McLaren Management, as an example in Formula 1, is almost entirely British if not entirely.

Chris Dyer may have done well with Schumacher (as a race engineer) but he was on slippery slope after that as head of strategy (strategy is easy when you have the fastest car by some distance) and Abu Dhabi was the icing on the cake. Do you expect Alonso to drive the car, make strategy decisions and manage the team from within the cockpit?

Costa's cars, although highly developable over a season, always lacked aerodynamically since the 2009 rule changes came in. To make matters worse he never got on top of the tyre warming issues which plagued the team for a very long time. As far as I can tell the correlation issues only reared it's head when the wind tunnel was upgraded to 60% scale so the others cars cannot use this excuse. Furthermore, what he has done for Mercedes remains to be seen. I was sad to see Costa leave though and said as much in the Ferrari thread last year.

Had Ferrari stuck with these guys after years of mistakes the same people here would again be calling for Domenicali's head only this time because he had not taken action. Seems like a loose loose situation to me.

Domenicali was quite frank about the issues Ferrari are facing and he is jacking up various departments and whether or not this will be successful remains to be seen but he at least deserves the opportunity to see it through. If I'm not mistaken, Domenicali handed in his resignation after what transpired in Abu Dhabi but Montezemolo was having none of it so to say he has a save your own ass style of manager is unfair as he was merely stating the obvious but he also went on to say that he is ultimately called into question.

Expecting Ferrari to win every year is absurd to say the least especially since Newey and co have found their comfort zone with these regulations. It is going to take a mammoth effort to get the better of them.

Also, saying Ferrari have the same problems is a very much premature.

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#140 AlexS

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:00

This thread is bordering on the ridiculous. McLaren haven't reached the heights they did in the 90's and yet nobody is calling for heads to roll. I really don't know what people want from Domenicali...


That the team doesn't make stupid mistakes. That is the first.
It is not difficult to see a team badly managed when it makes successive stupid mistakes. If you check my nick and Domenicali you'll see that i claim that he is not the person to lead a F1 team long ago. My opinion has not much to do with this year btw, but years of mistakes.

Edited by AlexS, 11 March 2012 - 23:00.


#141 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:00

I'm going to try and explain to you in a very slow way. When you start saying crap like that, what you are really are trying to do is to save your ass, deflect blame.


See, it seems like a miracle how much better communication works when you actually write what you want to express! Now that you made a point, let me address it: you are right that such things are often said to deflect blame. At least equally often they are just stating the facts. In this case, I don't really see how it would work as deflection when in the same sentence he says that his job is constantly on the line, or something to that effect.

It's very coherent with what he did to Fry, by throwing hin to the lions all by himself, on the last day at Barcelona. Did you get it know ? He's not trying to fix anything, and I'll repeat one more time, he's trying to save his ass. He's useless.


I was one of the posters in the (now) F2012 thread who questioned his disappearance and was unhappy with his absence from that press conference. EDIT: But I'm not so delusional to claim to know what went on and whether there were legitimate reasons.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 11 March 2012 - 23:05.


#142 zyphro

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:13

Furthermore, what he has done for Mercedes remains to be seen. I was sad to see Costa leave though and said as much in the Ferrari thread last year.


Oh I'm sure he feels very welcomed teaming up with Brawn and Schumacher again. :clap:

#143 engel

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:13

That the team doesn't make stupid mistakes. That is the first.
It is not difficult to see a team badly managed when it makes successive stupid mistakes. If you check my nick and Domenicali you'll see that i claim that he is not the person to lead a F1 team long ago. My opinion has not much to do with this year btw, but years of mistakes.


every team, including McLaren, makes stupid mistakes. Or decisions made in the heat of the moment that with 20/20 hindsight appear stupid

#144 ashnathan

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:14

Do you think Ferrari miss Aldo Costa?

#145 zyphro

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:15

Who knows.. maybe the problem is the culture within the whole team that needs changing rather then one specific person.

It's obviously the culture.

Think about it as an engineer, would you want to go there? Sure it has history, but your job security is dramatically lower comparable to other teams around you.

#146 zyphro

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:16

Do you think Ferrari miss Aldo Costa?


We'll find out soon enough (depending on the direction Mercedes GP go).

I sincerely hope he does well, not just as a Merc Gp fan but as a fan of the man himself.



#147 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:23

It's obviously the culture.

Think about it as an engineer, would you want to go there?


There seems to be no shortage of capable engineers who wanted to.

Sure it has history, but your job security is dramatically lower comparable to other teams around you.

Weirdly, the same people who often claim this are often those who call for heads to roll on a higher level, though the same argument applies: do you think it would be easy to find a top-notch team director to replace Domenicali if he sees that if you don't win the championship every year, you will be sacked after 3 or 4 years regardless of the reasons?

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 11 March 2012 - 23:24.


#148 ashnathan

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:29

I don't know why Ferrari sacked Aldo Costa, another scapegoat? He seemed to be the only engineer that would speak up and do something. The last non EBD Ferrari wasn't too shabby either.

#149 zyphro

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:35

There seems to be no shortage of capable engineers who wanted to.


Weirdly, the same people who often claim this are often those who call for heads to roll on a higher level, though the same argument applies: do you think it would be easy to find a top-notch team director to replace Domenicali if he sees that if you don't win the championship every year, you will be sacked after 3 or 4 years regardless of the reasons?


No there isn't- but as soon as someone gets a sniff of something going bad everyone will be all over you.

No again obviously: because there aren't many around. I don't call for sacking: I call for a change in the way things are done.

The blame game has gone on for too long and is ultimately destroying morale in that team.

#150 zyphro

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:39

I don't know why Ferrari sacked Aldo Costa, another scapegoat? He seemed to be the only engineer that would speak up and do something. The last non EBD Ferrari wasn't too shabby either.


Probably.

Indeed.