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1938 British Empire Trophy


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#1 sramoa

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:17

Hi guys!Somebody have got entries or results for this Handicap event(C. Dodson won)?
I didn't find in search results and other any sites and MotorSport magazine...

Thanks

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:41

I wouldn't have believed MotorSport wouldn't have covered such as important event, but it seems you're right...

#3 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 13:03

Here are the results as given in the Motor Sport Book of Donington. Surely they must also have appeared in the magazine?

1st: C. J. P. Dodson (744-c.c. Austin S), 69.62 m.p.h., 64 laps, 2 hr. 33 min. 31 sec.
2nd: "B. Bira" (1,488-c.c. ERA S), 73.72 m.p.h., 64 laps, 2 hr. 35 min. 9 sec.
3rd: Billy Cotton and W. E. Wilkinson (1.488-c.c. ERA S), 62 laps, 71.47 m.p.h.
4th: Louis Gerard (2,984-c.c. Delage), 61 laps, 71.08 m.p.h.
5th: K. D. Evans (2,904-c.c. Alfa Romeo S), 60 laps, 72.6 m.p.h.
6th: H. L. Hadley (744-c.c. Austin S), 60 laps, 64.03 m.p.h.
7th: Percy Maclure (1,989-c.c. Riley), 58 laps, 67.01 m.p.h.
8th: J. F. Gee (1,496-c.c. Riley), 58 laps, 64.56 m.p.h.
9th: J. Paul (3,550-c.c. Delahaye), 58 laps, 70.12 m.p.h.
10th: F. R. Gerard (1,486-c.c. Riley), 57 laps, 62.68 m.p.h.
11th: I. H. Nickols (747-c.c. MG S), 52 laps, 59.38 m.p.h.

Class Winners:
A, (750-c.c. S and 1,100-c.c. U/s.), H. L. Hadley.
B, (1,100-c.c. S and 1,500-c.c. U/s.), J. F. Gee.
C, (1,500-c.c. S and 3,000-c.c. U/s.), Louis Gerard..
D, (unlimited c.c.), K. D. Evans.

Team Prize: F. R. Gerard, J. F. Gee and P. Maclure.

Note: Laps completed include credit laps.

Edited by Tim Murray, 10 March 2012 - 13:05.


#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 13:08

I wouldn't have believed MotorSport wouldn't have covered such as important event, but it seems you're right...

That was while they were in dispute with Donington over photography passes - that's also why there are no pictures in their 1938 Donington GP report. Fred Craner wasn't WB's favourite person in early 1938: see page 198 in the May edition. ;)

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 16:29

Preview and report from The Times, 8/4/38 and 11/4/38

Posted Image Posted Image

#6 sramoa

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 18:48

Thanks Tim and Richard!

#7 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 18:53

"APM Holt" in the preview should of course read "APR Rolt"!

#8 sramoa

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 19:07

"APM Holt" in the preview should of course read "APR Rolt"!


Tony Rolt

#9 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 19:13

Aged 19.

#10 sramoa

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 09:20

....and maybe I searching a more British event this time:
100 miles Coronation Trophy race at Donington Park,14 May 1938-won R. Mays 1.5 L ERA car

#11 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 09:50

Again from the Motor Sport Book of Donington:

CORONATION TROPHY RACE. 100-mile Handicap up to 5,000-c.c.:

1st: R. Mays (1,748-c.c. ERA S), rec. 7 min. 28 sec., 1 hr. 32 min. 5 sec., 69.59 m.p.h.
2nd: A. P. R. Rolt (1,488-c.c. ERA S), rec. 7 min. 28 sec., 1 hr. 34 min. 5 sec., 68.01 m.p.h.
3rd: I. F. Connell (1,488-c.c. ERA S), rec. 7 min. 28 sec., 1 hr. 34 min. 29 sec., 67.71 m.p.h.
4th: I. H. Nichols (746-c.c. MG S), rec. 13 min. 20 sec., 1 hr. 37 min. 32 sec., 61.52 m.p.h.

Still Running at Finish:
T. C. Harrison (1,089-c.c. Riley), rec. 13 min. 20 sec., 30 laps in 1 hr. 34 min. 55 sec.
H. C. Hunter (1,486-c.c. Alta S), rec. 7 min. 28 sec., 30 laps in 1 hr. 35 min. 46.2 sec.
A. Cudden-Fletcher (1,087-c.c. MG S), rec. 11 min. 12 sec., 30 laps in 1 hr. 37 min. 7.2 sec.
J. Dugdale (1,087-c.c. MG), rec. 13 min. 20 sec., 26 laps in 1 hr. 35 min. 10 sec.

Distance: Thirty laps. Sixteen ran.


#12 taylov

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 13:13

Here are the 2 programmes in question.

Tony

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#13 D-Type

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 18:01

Interesting!
I've never seen a 1750 ERA mentioned before. Was this R4D at an interim stage in its development from 1.5 to 2 litres?
Or a move up a class to take a class win that struck lucky and took an overall win?

Edited by D-Type, 12 March 2012 - 08:00.


#14 David McKinney

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 18:39

The 2-litre engine had appeared long before. I suspect the choice of engine-size for this race had to do with handicapping (eg, if there was a separate break at 1750cc)

Mays's regular mount throughout 1938 was indeed R4D

#15 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 19:53

There's some doubt about the engine size. The report says:

Raymond Mays ran on to win unchallenged in his ERA, which was rumoured to have a 1,750-c.c. engine but which the programme gave as the usual 1,488-c.c. supercharged.

.
The relevant class was for supercharged cars between 1,100-c.c. and 2,500-c.c. (and 1,500 to 4,000-c.c. unsupercharged).

#16 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 21:49

Mays used the 1748cc engine in the International Trophy, where the class split was an unusual 1750cc. He sometimes used it in hillclimbs too: to take the cynical view that might have been in order to ensure a class win in the event he didn't get FTD - if anything was going to beat him at Shelsley or Prescott it was likely to be Fane's single-seater Frazer Nash, which would therefore have also won the 1500cc class.

Edited by Vitesse2, 11 March 2012 - 21:59.


#17 sramoa

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 04:47

Here are the 2 programmes in question.

Tony

Posted Image


Do you have entry list for Coronation Trophy?

#18 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 17:48

Again from the Motor Sport Book of Donington:

CORONATION TROPHY RACE. 100-mile Handicap up to 5,000-c.c.:

1st: R. Mays (1,748-c.c. ERA S), rec. 7 min. 28 sec., 1 hr. 32 min. 5 sec., 69.59 m.p.h.
2nd: A. P. R. Rolt (1,488-c.c. ERA S), rec. 7 min. 28 sec., 1 hr. 34 min. 5 sec., 68.01 m.p.h.
3rd: I. F. Connell (1,488-c.c. ERA S), rec. 7 min. 28 sec., 1 hr. 34 min. 29 sec., 67.71 m.p.h.
4th: I. H. Nichols (746-c.c. MG S), rec. 13 min. 20 sec., 1 hr. 37 min. 32 sec., 61.52 m.p.h.

Still Running at Finish:
T. C. Harrison (1,089-c.c. Riley), rec. 13 min. 20 sec., 30 laps in 1 hr. 34 min. 55 sec.
H. C. Hunter (1,486-c.c. Alta S), rec. 7 min. 28 sec., 30 laps in 1 hr. 35 min. 46.2 sec.
A. Cudden-Fletcher (1,087-c.c. MG S), rec. 11 min. 12 sec., 30 laps in 1 hr. 37 min. 7.2 sec.
J. Dugdale (1,087-c.c. MG), rec. 13 min. 20 sec., 26 laps in 1 hr. 35 min. 10 sec.

Distance: Thirty laps. Sixteen ran.

Fifteen years later the 1938 runner up Tony Rolt went one place better by winning the 1953 Coronation Trophy Race at the re-opening of the Crystal Palace circuit.

#19 Sharman

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:42

I haven't looked it up Eric but I guess that even then he engine was a pre war design.

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#20 Option1

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 15:06

As an off-topic aside, why the fervent injunction that "Race Numbers Must Not Be Published" on the 9 April programme?

Neil

#21 Darren Galpin

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 16:18

As an off-topic aside, why the fervent injunction that "Race Numbers Must Not Be Published" on the 9 April programme?

Neil


Probably to stop advance betting?

#22 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 18:46

As an off-topic aside, why the fervent injunction that "Race Numbers Must Not Be Published" on the 9 April programme?

Neil

Probably to stop advance betting?

Simply to make sure spectators bought a programme on the day. That one is overprinted "advance copy", so was presumably originally a press freebie: all three motoring weeklies - and The Times - used to publish previews of major meetings which included entry lists. But not the numbers, which could have deprived the organisers of several thousand shillings if people simply tore the list out of their daily paper or weekly motoring magazine.

#23 taylov

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:37

Simply to make sure spectators bought a programme on the day. That one is overprinted "advance copy", so was presumably originally a press freebie: all three motoring weeklies - and The Times - used to publish previews of major meetings which included entry lists. But not the numbers, which could have deprived the organisers of several thousand shillings if people simply tore the list out of their daily paper or weekly motoring magazine.


I have seen several examples of this on UK race programmes pre-WW2, mainly Donington but also Crystal Palace.

If one goes back further other approaches were used to maximise programme sales, including changing the cars' numbers between practice and race day, or, in the very early days, not carrying numbers at all until race day.

Tony

#24 D-Type

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:04

I have seen several examples of this on UK race programmes pre-WW2, mainly Donington but also Crystal Palace.

If one goes back further other approaches were used to maximise programme sales, including changing the cars' numbers between practice and race day, or, in the very early days, not carrying numbers at all until race day.

Tony

The Belgians also did the "change numbers from practice to the race" trick post-WW2. It complicates things when identifying photos (DSJ commented on being caught out a few years afterwards when he was looking at what turned out to be practice pics)