48 replies to this topic

[D.M.N.]

This programme may be of interest to some people here which appeared on DigiGuide last night:

DOCUMENTARY: How to Go Faster and Influence People: The Gordon Murray F1 Story
On: BBC Four (9)
Date: Sunday 25th March 2012 (starting in 15 days)
Time: 21:00 to 22:00 (1 hour long)

(Stereo, Widescreen, Subtitles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excerpt taken from DigiGuide - the world's best TV guide available from http://www.getdigigu....tv/?p=1&r=7646

Copyright © GipsyMedia Limited.

No description on there as of yet, description should appear in the next week or so. (scheduling time shouldn't change, but keep an eye out)

Edited by D.M.N., 10 March 2012 - 19:04.

[ghinzani]

Good old BBC4!! Thanks for the heads up

Edited by ghinzani, 11 March 2012 - 09:09.

[RTH]

This is a must see .

[arttidesco]

A Mark Stewart Production I believe

[LittleChris]

Good to hear

[Ralf Pickel]

Would anybody be able to please make a copy on DVD for me ? I would, of course cover costs etc.
Would really love to see that, having admired GM´s work.
I don´t see it being aired here on any channel - and iPlayer doesn´t work outside the UK.

Ralf

[rallen]

This is great news! rather random though - rather specialist even for BBC4. Does anyone know if this is going to be a series? (John Barnard anyone?!)

[Shockabuku]

No mention of it on the 25th as far as the BBC Four website is concerned...

BBC Four Schedule for 25th

[John Saunders]

Not listed in next weeks Radio Times

[chdphd]

Not in Sky Guide either.

[mfd]

Not listed in next weeks Radio Times

It will now be on BBC4 Sunday April 8th at 21:00. Private showing somewhere in London today.

[Shockabuku]

It will now be on BBC4 Sunday April 8th at 21:00. Private showing somewhere in London today.

Unfortunately it doesn't look like it's going to be shown on the 8th either.
BBC Four schedule

[FredF1]

Google throws up this.

Dear CAR subscribers

We have just today been informed by the BBC scheduling department that the broadcast time for HOW TO GO FASTER AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: The Gordon Murray F1 Story has been bumped at the last minute.

They have not provided us with a confirmed alternate date but they suggest it may be shown on the weekend of this year's British Grand Prix.

We sincerely apologize for any confusion this may have caused and we will alert CAR of the correct broadcast date when it has been confirmed by the BBC.

MARK STEWART PRODUCTIONS

[Vitesse2]

They have not provided us with a confirmed alternate date but they suggest it may be shown on the weekend of this year's British Grand Prix.

MARK STEWART PRODUCTIONS

Would it be too cynical of me to suggest that BBC have realised that Sky's extra coverage of F1 is making them look rather foolish and that they're going to try a retaliation in July by showing this, the other Mark Stewart programmes on Clark, Hill and Stewart and anything else F1-related in their archive that they don't actually have to pay Bernie to screen again? Not that they've got much of that Repeats of "The Power and the Glory" perhaps?

[Shockabuku]

They have not provided us with a confirmed alternate date but they suggest it may be shown on the weekend of this year's British Grand Prix.


MARK STEWART PRODUCTIONS

According to the BBC website, and as per the suggestion mentioned in the above quote, it's due to be broadcast on Sunday 8th July at 8pm on BBC Four.

Edited by Shockabuku, 02 July 2012 - 16:23.

[droopsnoot]

Freeview description says this is about Gordon Murray's City Car.

[Gary C]

'anything else F1-related in their archive that they don't actually have to pay Bernie to screen again? Not that they've got much of that rolleyes.gif Repeats of "The Power and the Glory" perhaps?'
LOL. Well, they turned down my Lotus 72 documentary !

[MrAerodynamicist]

Radio Times description:
Documentary chronicling the achievements of the Formula One car designer, who gained fame for his innovative approach to the engineering of racing machines. Among his successes are the controversial Brabham BT46B, which used a fan to increase cornering speeds by sucking the vehicle closer to the track, and the McLaren MP4/4, which dominated the 1988 season, winning 15 of the 16 races. The programme also provides an insight into his work on road cars, from the record-breaking McLaren F1 to his current project the T25, which he believes is the way forward for both the design and manufacture of city cars.

[MartLgn]

Just watching this now and finding the random insertion of F1 between the story of the new small car rather irritating. THis programme also suffers from the apparantly mandatory problem with programmes such as this, namely incorrect footage which does not reflect the narration. 'Early 80's formula 1' is accompanied with footage of Ronnie Petersons demise at Monza in 1978, the Mclaren MP4/4 is shown with footage of the MP4/5 and the pioneering use of refuelling in 1982 is interspersed with footage of the 1983 Brabham, poor research or just lack of interest?

[RTH]

Superb.

[dwh43scale]

Whilst MartLgn identifies some inaccuracies (I can't say either way without research), in the overall scheme of the programme I thought it was very interesting and provided some thought provoking ideas about whether the major manufacturers with their historical investments would be willing to go with the T25.

I also remain of the view that the McLaren F1 is the ultimate super car - just check out the size and carrying capacity against the behemoths we have today.

[jcdeleted]

In my humble opinion; pretty damn good for mainstream television. Gordon Murray erudite, especially on the eco stuff. The esteemed Mr Nye erudite and pithy. Enjoyed it more than I thought I would, and that's quite unusual.

[dank]

It's now on the iPlayer for those that missed it: http://www.bbc.co.uk...urray_F1_Story/

[brakedisc]

I did not get it.

He designed some of the best racing cars in the world, the only true super car and ends up designing a "town" car

What is he on?

[kayemod]

I did not get it.

What is he on?

A question that was asked from time to time in Gordon's heyday...

[dwh43scale]

I did not get it.

He designed some of the best racing cars in the world, the only true super car and ends up designing a "town" car

What is he on?

May be his feet are firmly on the ground ! A town car that out runs a Smart, carries an extra person and does lots of mpg. We may not like it but we are all going to have to get greener (even if only a very pale (UDT) shade).

Still want an F1 though !

[charles r]

A question that was asked from time to time in Gordon's heyday...

...Whatever it was I want some... He designed some of the most aesthetically pleasing Grand Prix cars ever, plus the F1.
I thought the programe was totally absorbing. Particularly liked the part when he was disabusing the interviewer over the legality of the fan car.
The City Car is a far sighted project and is totally in keeping with GM's visionary and radical approach to engineering. 3 seats in an energy efficient vehicle smaller than a Smart Car...

Edited by charles r, 10 July 2012 - 11:39.

[dank]

Visionary and radical approach?

The T25 is nothing but a fancy rickshaw!

[john aston]

Hmm. Or a completely refreshing take on what people actually need for urban transport.. Far more relevant to more people than the F1 and I suspect even cleverer.(But the F1 looks even gretaer now than it did then - when compared to the lardy , hideous and pointless Bugatti). And a dream garage with a T25, an F1 and a Rocket would sure suit me.

[kayemod]

I thought the programe was totally absorbing. Particularly liked the part when he was disabusing the interviewer over the legality of the fan car.

I agree, an excellent programme, that far exceeded my expectations. I agree with Colin Chapman and Ken Tyrrell on the legality, or lack of it, of the fan car though, but I've always thought that the Lotus 88 was massively illegal as well, so some ACBC inconsistency there. I was too junior to dare to argue seriously with Chapman, but as my department head was ex-Hornsey, he was virtually bullet proof as far as Lotus was concerned, and he argued with Colin all the time, mostly about paint and fibreglass, about which 'The Old Man' knew little more than what we'd told him. Trying to argue with Chapman was very difficult, as his agile mind constantly shuffled the goalposts. If you effectively countered something he'd said, he'd instantly incorporate your point into his main thesis, claiming that it was what he'd said at the outset, so fairly or otherwise, he'd win every time. I'm not surprised that largely due to him and his powers of persuasion, the BT46 disappeared after only one race.

[brakedisc]

Visionary and radical approach?

The T25 is nothing but a fancy rickshaw!

Totally agree.


I have watched it evolve via the Gordon Murray Design website and I am staggered that a man so smart in automotive terms came up with it.

[RTH]

Hmm. Or a completely refreshing take on what people actually need for urban transport.. Far more relevant to more people than the F1 and I suspect even cleverer.(But the F1 looks even gretaer now than it did then - when compared to the lardy , hideous and pointless Bugatti). And a dream garage with a T25, an F1 and a Rocket would sure suit me.

Spot on John.

[Paul Rochdale]

Kayemod

Did you ever meet Richard Parker, the designed of the Rochdale Olympic, who briefly joined Lotus in about 1962? I believe he spent a lot of time working on the suspension of the Lotus 30 and 40 sportscars but left Lotus after a year or so as he found Chapman 'difficult' to work for.

[kayemod]

Kayemod

Did you ever meet Richard Parker, the designed of the Rochdale Olympic, who briefly joined Lotus in about 1962? I believe he spent a lot of time working on the suspension of the Lotus 30 and 40 sportscars but left Lotus after a year or so as he found Chapman 'difficult' to work for.

This has little to do with Gordon Murray, though he mentioned Colin Chapman quite a few times in that programme, he clearly had the greatest respect for the man, as did most who worked with him, but no Paul, Richard Parker must have preceded me by at least ten years. Although Lotus was a small company and staff mixed quite a lot, I never had much to do with Team and the racers anyway other than socially. In Chapman's defence, I never found him 'difficult' at all, he kept close tabs on everything that went on at Lotus, but if you knew what you were doing and were getting results, he interfered very little. Something like racing car design would have been very different though I imagine, few people alive understood the subject better than him, so I can well believe that would have made working for him difficult at times, he's on record as having fallen out with a few of his designers.

[DN5]

Notice it is being repeated on BBC 4 tonight at 11:50 for those who don't use iplayer and want to see it.

Geoff

[Breadmaster]

A very good programme I thought, some nice old footage (albeit with some niggles - see above) but it flowed very well and that is what makes a good documentary.
Full on tech and talking heads can be very dry, no matter how good the content.
I liked to see the old stuff, it gave some depth and i'm a sucker for a well told anecdote. Another +1 for DCN

I must admit that i've found out more by reading this very forum over the years but a visual packaging is very welcome and good skills to the BBC for it.

[mfd]

...and good skills to the BBC for it.

Mark Stewart Productions

[Breadmaster]

Indeed, my apologies.

Good skills to them for making it and the BBC for showing it.

[Stephen W]

I enjoyed the programme but was far from impressed with the final T25 - the concept of opening the whole front of the car may be OK in some parts of the world but in the UK it would be a disaster akin to having the Centre Parcs Logflume inside your vehicle!

I always thought that the fan-car Brabham was 100% legal as it was never chucked out for failing to comply with the regs but was "withdrawn" at the behest of Bernie Ecclestone so as not to rock the boat! I could understand why GM was pissed off with Bernie.

[Breadmaster]

...the concept of opening the whole front of the car may be OK in some parts of the world but in the UK it would be a disaster akin to having the Centre Parcs Logflume inside your vehicle!

Indeed - my only criticism with the T25...really impractical in the rain!

[ensign14]

I always thought that the fan-car Brabham was 100% legal as it was never chucked out for failing to comply with the regs but was "withdrawn" at the behest of Bernie Ecclestone so as not to rock the boat! I could understand why GM was pissed off with Bernie.

My view was that if the primary function of the fan was indeed to provide engine cooling then Brabham could have simply sealed off the bottom of the car so there was no indirect benefit. Because they did not do so that showed the primary function of the fan was to provide downforce. Ergo it was against the regs and should have been DQ'd. I wonder if Arrows being the beneficiary of a disqualification was an influence...

[Macca]

I always thought the fan-car did what it said on the tin - GM's calcs showed more than 50% of the air was drawn down through the rad, so it's primary function was cooling.

The Lotus 88, on the other hand........ACBC had to call an apple an orange but that didn't make it so; what he tried to call 'the aerodynamic chassis' was purely coachwork not mounted to the real chassis- so illegal once - and attached to the unsprung suspension - so illegal twice.

I like the T25 concept and execution but whether it is fully practical remains to be seen; there were some silly claims on their website earlier about increased motorway lane occupation, and while it should be good in a city, on a bit of dual-carriageway it will be very vulnerable to the wash from HGVs.

However logical the T25 is, some people drive big thirsty cars for illogical reasons; and time will tell whether the entrenched interests of the big manufacturers, steel industries and politicians can be overcome or bypassed.

Paul M

[FredF1]

Indeed - my only criticism with the T25...really impractical in the rain!

The internal footage seemed to feature an incredible amount of road and engine noise as well. I don't know if any soundproofing is planned or not.

[Garagiste]

Wonderful to hear somebody who actually gets it, that high MPG != eco friendly if it's full of toxic chemicals and transported all over the world.
Actually getting people to buy the T25 might be more challenging than anything he's faced yet, but I wish him every success.

[GMACKIE]

Then again, the VW T25 Transporter is a different story.

[David Beard]

My view was that if the primary function of the fan was indeed to provide engine cooling then Brabham could have simply sealed off the bottom of the car so there was no indirect benefit.

If they had done that, not only would there have been no down force, but no cooling either!

[Tim Murray]

No, because the fan would still have drawn air through the radiators, but it couldn't then also have created low pressure under the car.

[ensign14]

They could have blasted the cooling anywhere. (Over the rear wing? Hm.) But it showed that for all the calculations they would not have done it but for the aero gain - ergo, that was the real reason for doing it.

[kayemod]

They could have blasted the cooling anywhere. (Over the rear wing? Hm.) But it showed that for all the calculations they would not have done it but for the aero gain - ergo, that was the real reason for doing it.

We have to wonder just how good Gordon Murray was at complicated sums. His defence of the BT46 fan car didn't quite convince me, just as it failed to convince rival teams at the time, but the prog failed to mention that the fan car was actually the BT46B, no mention at all of its BT46 predecessor. This relied on surface cooling, and was an abject failure due to a total misunderstanding of the concept. A fellow F1 designer at the time calculated that the car should have had something like twice the surface area of a thirty foot long double-decker bus to achieve anything like adequate cooling. I'm not knocking Gordon, undeniably one of the F1 greats, but he didn't get things right all the time, especially where radiators and cooling were concerned.