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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#501 Anomnader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:15

Just bloody pit them when they're losing performance!

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#502 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:18

Just bloody pit them when they're losing performance!

And if that means a driver 3-stops instead of 2-stops so loses positions you'll be fine with that?

#503 hammibal

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:20

I admit his startegy was sub-par today - how's that? :D

Exactly and he knows now that he cant afford Jenson to get in front of him at the start otherwise he risks getting run out of tyres

#504 hammibal

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:21

And if that means a driver 3-stops instead of 2-stops so loses positions you'll be fine with that?

Webber pitted 3 laps before Lewis and still did a 2 stopper

#505 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:25

Webber pitted 3 laps before Lewis and still did a 2 stopper

I was responding to 'pit them when they're losing performance', not 'it would have been better to pit him a couple of laps earlier today.'

#506 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:26

Seems like a strategy worth exploring.

There would either have to be a minimum gap where that was implemented (to avoid the undercut) or lead driver is told if he doesn't pit other guy will...or i guess there could be some sort of agreement where any advantage give is later reciprocated (doubtful).

Don't get me wrong, as a lewis fan i'd much prefer something like this as their respective styles means he's more likely to lose out when running second...and if jb is clever he might very well run a lap or two longer than optmal to hurt lewis.

But i can see the logic and simplicity of a black and white rule, much as i don't like it. And i have a certain comfort that when lewis is ahead he's less vulnerable to jb than he would be otherwise.


Pit » BUT: "This pace is good. The cars behind have started to pit; we're in really good shape."

Pit » BUT: "Box this lap, confirm."
Button: "Box this lap."

Button: "Where is Lewis?
Pit » BUT: "He has just pitted and he's 8s behind you. You have RAI and PER between you."

Pit » HAM: "Okay Lewis, give it everything these tyres have got."

Pit » HAM: "Box this lap."
Hamilton: "Box this lap okay."

Pit » HAM: "Remember to stay right of the white line. We're racing RAI and PER as we leave the pits."


Edited by fieraku, 18 March 2012 - 16:27.


#507 Lazy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:27

I admit his startegy was sub-par today - how's that? :D


:)

#508 Lazy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:28

So why are we having these argument.
The simple truth is that pitting both drivers one lap earlier gives the team a much better resault.

:D


#509 Lazy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:32

Exactly and he knows now that he cant afford Jenson to get in front of him at the start otherwise he risks getting run out of tyres

:lol:

#510 icecream_man

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:35

Excellent race by Jenson today, thoroughly enjoyed it, pulled out a lead when he needed to then just maintained the gap, and on a dry track with no changing conditions too. Perfect ! It's gonna be a brilliant season !

Tough luck on Lewis strategy-wise - if he'd got to the first corner first he'd have had first shout on strategy, but he didn't, he fluffed it, simple as that


#511 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:41

Don't get me wrong, as a lewis fan i'd much prefer something like this as their respective styles means he's more likely to lose out when running second...and if jb is clever he might very well run a lap or two longer than optmal to hurt lewis.


JB is clever!

#512 muramasa

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:54

So why are we having these argument.
The simple truth is that pitting both drivers one lap earlier gives the team a much better resault.

defo, but still just damn one lap. and it was extremly hard to predict dropoff and pinpoint pitstop to cliffing point, esp this race it was just one lap. I know in the races this kind of split second decision can be crucial, but still hindsight...way too harsh to say "shudve pitted ONE lap earlier" imo. Also LH's 1:36.403 on lap 16 was totally unexpected, had it not for that, LH wouldve been back in clear air. You dont race alone so sth like that happens, it's bad luck.

Also, the one's in front gets priority in strategy seems to be the team's rule, abit inflexible it might look but it seems best solution to me, as I'm not so sure potential intra-team controversy/conflict is better than some degree of compromise on strategy in the long term.


#513 Anomnader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 16:59

Also, the one's in front gets priority in strategy seems to be the team's rule, abit inflexible it might look but it seems best solution to me, as I'm not so sure potential intra-team controversy/conflict is better than some degree of compromise on strategy in the long term.



The only problem with this is that in the past we've seen this rule being ignored when it suits, eg: when button is behind and gets pulled in first.

#514 BuzzingHornet

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:02

Button beat Hamilton fair and square, the rest is just detail that would not have altered that.

Very happy for Button, he is doing to Lewis exactly what he did to Villeneuve, and still people are underrating him. How many WDC team mates does he need to beat in the same car...

As for asking for Lewis to be pulled in first... LOL... you have to earn the right to call the strategy and he blew it at the start, and then could not keep up with Button.

Edited by BuzzingHornet, 18 March 2012 - 17:03.


#515 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:04

The only problem with this is that in the past we've seen this rule being ignored when it suits, eg: when button is behind and gets pulled in first.

When they've been running together?
When? I honestly can't remember that.

Btw do we know that LH wasn't called in before Button because it was verboten, rather than because his engineer thought it better to wait (so as to not run off the cliff at the end of the race)? That seems to be the general assumption.

#516 sofarapartguy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:04

Button beat Hamilton fair and square, the rest is just detail that would not have altered that.

Very happy for Button, he is doing to Lewis exactly what he did to Villeneuve, and still people are underrating him. How many WDC team mates does he need to beat in the same car...


At the moment I think such situation plays in Buttons hands even better - by the moment top guys understand what really happened, Button will win a couple of races and cruise to the WDC.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 18 March 2012 - 17:06.


#517 enrm6

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:10

Pitting Lewis first doesn't ultimately help him as he then has to go longer in subsequent stints and his final one was already marginal.

Also, if Lewis is closer to Jenson at the second stop then they can't stack them.

The demeanour thing is worrying. Even with all the talk he's picking up where he left off last season. I have no problem with him being dissappointed, who wouldn't be? However he should be looking for the positives, like his supporters on this thread. He currently sits in the fastest car. He got pole and if he keeps getting them he won't always have poor starts. He's also just got a healthy haul of points from round 1. Hopefully by now he's come to the same conclusion himself.

#518 Anomnader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:13

The demeanour thing is worrying. Even with all the talk he's picking up where he left off last season. I have no problem with him being dissappointed, who wouldn't be? However he should be looking for the positives, like his supporters on this thread. He currently sits in the fastest car. He got pole and if he keeps getting them he won't always have poor starts. He's also just got a healthy haul of points from round 1. Hopefully by now he's come to the same conclusion himself.


If you don't feel like the teams got your back then its going to be upsetting.

#519 BillBald

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:17

I've always rated Jenson very highly, but I must admit he surprised me a little today.

Pulling a gap in the first couple of laps was obviously good from a DRS point of view, but I was worried that he might pay for it at the end of the first stint.

Lewis behind him was always at least 3 seconds behind, therefore running in clean air. I really expected to see the gap start to reduce.

And then again at the SC restart, astonishing pace in the first lap or two.

He must have his setup really well sorted, to feel able to push like that.






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#520 enrm6

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:17

If you don't feel like the teams got your back then its going to be upsetting.


And that's irrational. It also reinforces the bad place he's in mentally. Exactly what his sports psych will be working on with him.

#521 muramasa

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:20

The only problem with this is that in the past we've seen this rule being ignored when it suits, eg: when button is behind and gets pulled in first.

sure , but was it not because Lewis opted later stop, or situation and reason for reverse pit turn so clear to see, or not?
This time it was "normal" situation, there was absolutely nothing stupid going on. Saying "shudve defo been pitted ONE(!) lap earlier" is easy and only hindsight, and too harsh on the team. If Lewis is dropping off apparently for 2 or 3 laps already and they still didnt let him pit because Button keeps asking postponing pitstop, sure the team is dumb and deserves blame, but this time they were almost spot on and nothing strange. Also his time on lap16 was unexpected, you would expect late 1:34s - early 1:35s instead of 1:36:4. Dropoff has come just at unfortunate timing, which is hard to foresee, and again, you dont race alone.
Next time it'll be Lewis turn to get lucky!


#522 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:22

Pitting Lewis first doesn't ultimately help him as he then has to go longer in subsequent stints and his final one was already marginal.

Also, if Lewis is closer to Jenson at the second stop then they can't stack them.

The demeanour thing is worrying. Even with all the talk he's picking up where he left off last season. I have no problem with him being dissappointed, who wouldn't be? However he should be looking for the positives, like his supporters on this thread. He currently sits in the fastest car. He got pole and if he keeps getting them he won't always have poor starts. He's also just got a healthy haul of points from round 1. Hopefully by now he's come to the same conclusion himself.


The car is good. He can fight for the WDC with it. So can Button, possibly even more effectively. Vettel could also challenge, but it may well be that Button is what stands between him and a 2nd WDC. He should recognise that it is a long season, and Button will have his days. Button never seemed to be downbeat when Lewis came out on top before, and that stood to him. I suppose he can't help being dejected, but it doesn't do him any good.

#523 MinT

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:24

I see the tin - foil hats are out early this season.

Meanwhile back in the real world- teams give lead strategy to the car/driver in front plus if Hami wants to pit he should call it - show me the evidence where he asked to pit first and got told "no".

Hmailton is not the lead driver in the team - why do so many of you expect the team to treat him as such.

What you should really be considering is why after Button past him - he didnt use his skill to at least put Button under pressure. When has Button ever driven off the front at the start of a race and left Hami behind ?

#524 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:32

sure , but was it not because Lewis opted later stop, or situation and reason for reverse pit turn so clear to see, or not?
This time it was "normal" situation, there was absolutely nothing stupid going on. Saying "shudve defo been pitted ONE(!) lap earlier" is easy and only hindsight, and too harsh on the team. If Lewis is dropping off apparently for 2 or 3 laps already and they still didnt let him pit because Button keeps asking postponing pitstop, sure the team is dumb and deserves blame, but this time they were almost spot on and nothing strange. Also his time on lap16 was unexpected, you would expect late 1:34s - early 1:35s instead of 1:36:4. Dropoff has come just at unfortunate timing, which is hard to foresee, and again, you dont race alone.
Next time it'll be Lewis turn to get lucky!

He was,to Vettel and to the traffic Perez/Kimi which he spent his tires trying to get past when he should've been infront in clean air cruising.The late first stop lost him a guaranteed 2nd and gifted it to Vettel.

Some of us in the race thread called it as it was happening live,no hindsight needed.

#525 Burtros

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:35

absolutley perfect from Jenson today, a delight to sit there and watch him deliver this morning. Seemed to have enough pace at the right moments and for a few laps at the start I could have been back in 1998.... Jenson was close to Lewis in qualy, more so than normal and he does produce weekends like that when hes comfortable with a car. Its great to see someone enjoying it so much. Jenson seems a huge motivational force within McLaren.

As for Lewis, I see nothing in the race to cause concern although the reaction on here was always going to be extreme and reads to much into it. Jenson was faster in race trim ona track he goes well at. From the start he just didnt hook it up as well, it wont always happen but today it did. From there, it was rub of the green really - you can cut and dice the strategy and ask how McLaren could have done it better, but he was losing time on those tyres to the cars behind so going an extra lap wouldnt have worked, and pitting before Jenson would have been 2 laps earlier than he did stop and perhaps compromised him later in the race for tyres - he seemed very marginal near the end with Webber. Saftey Car was just a final kick in the nuts if you like.

Of concern was his mood at the end. Its also boring, bad for his image and doesnt endear him to many within McLaren I dont think.

Edited by Burtros, 18 March 2012 - 17:37.


#526 Afterburner

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:36

This is certainly a great start to the season for JB. Christian Horner said that he thought Jenson would be their biggest competitor this year - and on this performance who'd argue with that?

Certainly not me! He drove a remarkable race. JB showed 'em a master class today--well done! :D

EDIT: I made this post in the JB thread and now it's here...? And it has apparently been edited as well. :confused:

Edited by Afterburner, 18 March 2012 - 18:04.


#527 Dalton007

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:40

Masterclass from Jenson. He had extra pace available to him if he wanted to use it.

#528 Peter3hg

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:42

Masterclass from Jenson. He had extra pace available to him if he wanted to use it.


If he had the fuel to use it is probably more accurate.

#529 Dalton007

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:44

Lewis didn't have the pace from lap one. Very odd. Jenson pulled out a 3 sec gap and Lewis couldn't get back at him. Jenson had time in reserve today.


#530 MP422

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:45

Surprisingly strong performance by Button. Good first race result for both drivers !!! Bring on Malaysia !!

Long season ladies.

#531 WitnessX

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:45

The only problem with this is that in the past we've seen this rule being ignored when it suits, eg: when button is behind and gets pulled in first.

IIRC its only occured in wet to dry races when they have switched from intermediates to slicks, Hungary and Silverstone last year for example, but thats normal as the teams normally use the driver behind as the "guinea-pigs" (Massa, Webber...). In either instance there was sufficient time between the drivers not to threaten the lead. I also remember Lewis pitting before Jenson at Turkey and Japan because of tyre issues.

#532 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:47

JB was amazing,he took no prisoners and was not going to be denied.His re-start after SC was a thing of beauty.He's at the top of his game later in his career almost Zidane like.

#533 BillBald

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:49

The only problem with this is that in the past we've seen this rule being ignored when it suits, eg: when button is behind and gets pulled in first.


If you could name an instance of this happening, that would make for a better discussion.



#534 Octavian

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:57

JB was amazing,he took no prisoners and was not going to be denied.His re-start after SC was a thing of beauty.He's at the top of his game later in his career almost Zidane like.


There's little need for the soccer reference, this is F1 and not short of examples of this!
It is Senna like, Prost like, Stewart like, Piquet like, etc etc etc - we've been spoiled by some really young drivers being very successful in the last few years but a lot of great drivers hit their peak in their late 20s and early 30s, especially multi world champions, so it shouldn't come as a shock that Button is hitting his peak too, it's when talent and experience come together in harmony and I think that's going to give Button his second title this year.

#535 Kvothe

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:58

I see the tin - foil hats are out early this season.

Meanwhile back in the real world- teams give lead strategy to the car/driver in front plus if Hami wants to pit he should call it - show me the evidence where he asked to pit first and got told "no".

Hmailton is not the lead driver in the team - why do so many of you expect the team to treat him as such.

What you should really be considering is why after Button past him - he didnt use his skill to at least put Button under pressure. When has Button ever driven off the front at the start of a race and left Hami behind ?


http://www.dailymoti...auto#from=embed

Watch from 3:29 ;)

#536 Coops3

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 18:02

Jenson beat Lewis on pace today, simple as that. I predict an epic battle between these two! Should be good!

#537 ForzaGTR

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 18:04

No excuses from me, Jenson outpaced Lewis today. Great performance. I hope Lewis can find more race pace next week. The good news is the car is quick and sexy as hell.

Edited by Olly F1, 18 March 2012 - 18:05.


#538 TheBunk

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 18:52

just read the press conference. For all the supposed problems some here say Lewis had, Jenson didnt have a perfect set up neither

Edited by TheBunk, 18 March 2012 - 18:52.


#539 zack1994

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:09

What about jenson building a 3 sec plus lead at the start?

And, not a fair comparison because jb had clear air, but I'm not sure lewis could have matched jb's pace post SC

I'm a tad worried, actually very worried, what happened was basically my biggest fear in the event of macca having a top car, I just hope post race they can see some sort of explanation.

I don't think you should be worried his pace before the first stop was fine jenson was just a little bit quicker on the first few laps.
In malaysia he'll be very strong.

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#540 Nigol

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:15

No excuses from me, Jenson outpaced Lewis today. Great performance. I hope Lewis can find more race pace next week. The good news is the car is quick and sexy as hell.


:up:

#541 jj2728

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:39

Button sure put his stamp of authority on the race. An outstanding drive.

#542 PNSD

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 21:58

Good race for the team.

Awesome by JB, OK by Lewis.

Still this is 1 race of 20. I repeat, 20!!! Those saying this is JB's season are silly. Those saying Lewis is finished are even more silly.

I could pick out a single race from any previous season and draw conclusions... I am amazed at some of the posts in here, 1 race that is all.

Lewis was pissed off because he lost to his team mate, who won. At worst he should have been 2nd. If the roles were reversed and Lewis won with JB 3rd, in private JB would be equally as pissed off as Lewis now. However maybe on screen he would probably not show it as much as Lewis.

Lewis could have won, he knows that and therefore he was annoyed.

Good race, but this will not be a pattern for the season. If anything we will see as many races with Lewis dominating as Button, or even Vettel.

It's 1 race guys, remember that.

#543 m0912329

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:03

Good race for the team.

Awesome by JB, OK by Lewis.

Still this is 1 race of 20. I repeat, 20!!! Those saying this is JB's season are silly. Those saying Lewis is finished are even more silly.

I could pick out a single race from any previous season and draw conclusions... I am amazed at some of the posts in here, 1 race that is all.

Lewis was pissed off because he lost to his team mate, who won. At worst he should have been 2nd. If the roles were reversed and Lewis won with JB 3rd, in private JB would be equally as pissed off as Lewis now. However maybe on screen he would probably not show it as much as Lewis.

Lewis could have won, he knows that and therefore he was annoyed.

Good race, but this will not be a pattern for the season. If anything we will see as many races with Lewis dominating as Button, or even Vettel.

It's 1 race guys, remember that.


It isn't that people think it will be JB's season or that LH's season is over. The race is an example which defied many of our thoughts which were that over last two seasons LH always outpaces JB in dry races. Now JB has showed that he can outpace LH in dry as well, which I am sure took even JB fans to surprise.

I hope JB keeps up this momentum and can now match LH, and it will be a lot more competitive teammate battle this season in comparison to past two seasons where there was always one expected winner. Now it is a lot less predictable. Even if it is only one race, it means more is possible, but I don't expect this to happen over 20 whole races. I expect Lewis to make much less mistakes than last season and so finish above Button, probably not by the margin that we saw in 2010.

Edited by m0912329, 18 March 2012 - 22:05.


#544 Clatter

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:16

It isn't that people think it will be JB's season or that LH's season is over. The race is an example which defied many of our thoughts which were that over last two seasons LH always outpaces JB in dry races. Now JB has showed that he can outpace LH in dry as well, which I am sure took even JB fans to surprise.

I hope JB keeps up this momentum and can now match LH, and it will be a lot more competitive teammate battle this season in comparison to past two seasons where there was always one expected winner. Now it is a lot less predictable. Even if it is only one race, it means more is possible, but I don't expect this to happen over 20 whole races. I expect Lewis to make much less mistakes than last season and so finish above Button, probably not by the margin that we saw in 2010.


No surprise to me.

#545 gricey1981

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:21

Great race from JB.

not the end of the world for Lewis. last year he would have wrecked or something Podiums are fine.

He''ll dominate Jenson in the same way in China. Maybe even Malaysia.

Really is going to be a close battle between these 2

#546 icecream_man

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:30

The car is good. He can fight for the WDC with it. So can Button, possibly even more effectively. Vettel could also challenge, but it may well be that Button is what stands between him and a 2nd WDC. He should recognise that it is a long season, and Button will have his days. Button never seemed to be downbeat when Lewis came out on top before, and that stood to him. I suppose he can't help being dejected, but it doesn't do him any good.


You're absolutely right he certainly didn't, always kept up-beat and genuinely congratulated Lewis on his performances, what a contrast there is between the two characters ! That's the main, if not only reason I want Jenson to win

#547 zack1994

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:38

The laps prior to the first pit stops button and hamiltons pace was identical lewis wasn't struggling more with degradation than jenson the only time he struggled more was on the lap jenson pitted lewis had a bad first sector and the tyres had fallen of the clip on that lap going 1.7 slower than the preivous lap.


#548 ClockworkRacing

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:54

Lewis didn´t lose the 2nd place because of strategy,he lost it when he rejoined the track behind Perez,he lost 7 seconds there

#549 Elloh

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 23:04

Lewis didn´t lose the 2nd place because of strategy,he lost it when he rejoined the track behind Perez,he lost 7 seconds there


Why didnt he pass?

#550 icecream_man

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 23:09

Why didnt he pass?


I guess he couldn't, did remind me of last year, can't remember which race now, when LH was stuck behind MS for several laps unable to get past, then as soon as JB got ahead of him and up to the back of Schumacher JB was through at the very first opportunity with seemingly relative ease, it was quite a contrast !
Really seems to me like the tables have turned significantly