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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#751 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 18:34

Luck or not FA started 13th? and got only 5pts less than Lewis in the end,so that's how races could go and how irrelevant Quali can be if you have good race pace vs one lap speed,i.e Merc.

Quali still important,you avoid some slowers hard drivers on your way.

Overtaking a Schumacher,Maldonado,Massa isn't the same as overtaking a Rosberg,Raikkonen,Alonso on risk.

Lewis must not crash above everything else,no more 0 points against Button or Vettel.

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 March 2012 - 18:36.


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#752 stairpotato

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 18:44

You are picking and choosing your data. Taking a select part of the stint proves nothing. As far as I know, both drivers were instructed to save fuel so your point is moot.


The ONLY fact we have been given about pace relating to fuel is that 'extreme' fuel saving was needed from lap 8.

Jenson was able to pull a gap consistently for the first nine laps of the race. It's not unreasonable to see a direct line between the fuel save instruction and pace relative to Lewis slowing somewhat. We know from the SC car period that Jenson was able to pull a gap when he needed to - and Jenson was also able to set fastest lap.

In any event, my initial reason for adding my thoughts here was that it was stated in this thread (by you?) that Jenson was only quicker for the first 2-3 laps after which time it stabilised. This is demonstrably not true. He was quicker for 9 consecutive laps. On lap 8 he was told to save fuel. On lap ten he was suddenly slower than Lewis. Draw your own conclusions.

#753 Guizotia

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 18:47

lol with fans like these, he does not need haters


Lets not go way overboard with the tire issue

If he is leading the race at the first corner, provided his setup is ok and the team respond and react to whats happening (instead of theoretical lap to stop or other bullsh*t like that), he could win the race.

Matter of fact he may not have to lead at the first corner to do so, provided the strategy is right and stars align.

He is not so bad as to need an extra stop on these tires or so, and people forget b4 that fateful slow stop and stint where things fell apart last year, he was on course to beat JB to 2nd in Malaysia.

Finally, it could rain throwing tyre issues out the window.

Fans complaining about Lewis attitude or head need to look at themselves first :lol:


Is it possible that the McLaren is better in clean air - i.e. the exhaust is sensitive to air disturbance?


#754 Dunder

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 19:30

No he won't. With the expected tire deg, he won't even finish in the top 5.


LOL.
The McLaren was a bit heavier on the tyres than the RBR, Lotus and Sauber. They were equal or better than every other team.

It was one race, a race where grid position has always been important.
I am quite confident that they have the ability to set up a car for Sepang that is aimed at being kinder to the tyres.


#755 bonjon1979a

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 19:47

It'll be interesting to see if this he who is in front pits first thing sticks - i could well imagine one of them saying, 'Guys, I'm coming in for tyres' and force their hand. Funnily enough, I see Jenson doing this before Lewis does - I worry that beneath the bravado and chutzpah, Lewis is far more insecure than JB and I'm not sure that he would do such a thing. He was a far better racer when he was in conflict with his team mate - ie Alonso. If they continue this nice guy routine they've got going then I think there's only going to be one winner and that'll be JB. Hamilton needs to tap into his win at all costs mentality and start calling the shots.

However, this may seem slightly contradictory but I also feel that there will be a couple of 'events' this year that will determine who comes out on top. A deluge coming down just after one of the cars passes the pit entrance, a gearbox gone, a rim failure - whatever it may be, luck will definitely play a significant part in this championship as I feel like we could really be in for another 2010.

#756 stairpotato

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 19:50

It'll be interesting to see if this he who is in front pits first thing sticks - i could well imagine one of them saying, 'Guys, I'm coming in for tyres' and force their hand. Funnily enough, I see Jenson doing this before Lewis does - I worry that beneath the bravado and chutzpah, Lewis is far more insecure than JB and I'm not sure that he would do such a thing. He was a far better racer when he was in conflict with his team mate - ie Alonso. If they continue this nice guy routine they've got going then I think there's only going to be one winner and that'll be JB. Hamilton needs to tap into his win at all costs mentality and start calling the shots.

However, this may seem slightly contradictory but I also feel that there will be a couple of 'events' this year that will determine who comes out on top. A deluge coming down just after one of the cars passes the pit entrance, a gearbox gone, a rim failure - whatever it may be, luck will definitely play a significant part in this championship as I feel like we could really be in for another 2010.


You guys act like this is something new...

...this has been the way McLaren run things for years...

#757 Dunder

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 19:55

You guys act like this is something new...

...this has been the way McLaren run things for years...


Generally in reverse though.
When there was refuelling it was nearly always an advantage to stay out longer. The "undercut" has really only been a factor where there is no refuelling and where degradation rates are high i.e. not very often before last year.


#758 icecream_man

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 20:09

You guys act like this is something new...

...this has been the way McLaren run things for years...


Precisely, it's a team "rule" that everyone was well aware of before the race and had the order been reversed at the first corner Lewis would have had first shout.

It's not as if McLaren change the rule on a whim to suit a specific driver, they've been very consistent with applying it and it's the logical fair way to go about things, the only exception being a wet race where generally the trailing driver tends to be used as a guinea-pig on a drying track which can be a benefit to the lead driver if they get it wrong, or the trailing driver if they get it right, in those circumstances it's very much a lottery as to which way it'll go.

I really can't see how people can possibly take issue with it just cos their driver happens to lose out on prime strategy in a specific race, there will almost certainly be races where the roles are reversed and Jenson gets the sub-prime pitstop, that's the way it goes and you certainly won't hear me moaning when it happens

Edited by icecream_man, 20 March 2012 - 20:10.


#759 hammibal

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 20:34

You do also need to keep in mind where the other cars are. The earlier you pit in the first stint the more chance there is of coming out behind other cars. Unless you have built a healthy lead which wasn't the case this weekend.

Thats fine if you're still pulling away, the opposite was the case, if Lewis had pitted 2 laps earlier he would have come out infront of Perez plus he wouldnt have hit the cliff

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#760 icecream_man

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 20:45

Thats fine if you're still pulling away, the opposite was the case, if Lewis had pitted 2 laps earlier he would have come out infront of Perez plus he wouldnt have hit the cliff


No, he'd have hit the cliff with his next set of tyres instead, unless he pitted 2 laps earlier the next time around as well, in which case he'd have hit the cliff with his last set. As someone else already pointed out, you can't get those 2 laps back, he either had to make them last til the necessary lap for the strategy he was on or totally compromise the strategy

#761 hammibal

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 20:49

Well at least he didn't crash into Massa :well:

Massa has new friends now :wave:

A gap of 3 secs is now the safe gap in F1 - Jenson could have pulled out more if he wanted to.

Lewis got trounced in the 4th quarter last year. He blamed relationships, bubble's, misc - it didn't matter that Button beat him because neither were competing for the WDC. He would be back better, focused and faster....

1st race in and Jenson comprehensively thrashed him. Malaysia is perhaps coming too soon for him - confidence must be very low at the moment and Vettel beat him in an apparently slower car.

Humbling :cat:

Vettel beat him because of a badly timed first pitstop, a SC, then a short fuelled car that limited both Lewis's and Jenson's speed

The bolded, exactly. As I already wrote yesterday.

Would have loved the reaction here though, if McLaren had put him on a four-stopper and he'd have finished 6th. :D

Webber stopped 3 laps before Lewis and did a 2 stopper

#762 Clatter

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 20:55

Vettel beat him because of a badly timed first pitstop, a SC, then a short fuelled car that limited both Lewis's and Jenson's speed


That's how he got past, he might still have beaten him anyway as we will never know if he could have overtaken him in the later stages.

#763 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:05

That's how he got past, he might still have beaten him anyway as we will never know if he could have overtaken him in the later stages.


Hamilton struggled in comparison to JB, but he was never in a million years going to be overtaken by Vettel. Seb was banging off the rev limiter before he got anywhere near passing Schumacher, and that was during the first few laps, and was against the Merc, nevermind Hamilton in a McLaren.

#764 hammibal

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:07

That's how he got past, he might still have beaten him anyway as we will never know if he could have overtaken him in the later stages.

Webber didnt manage it, also Lewis would have pulled away at the SC restart when the Red Bulls were struggling

#765 icecream_man

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:09

Webber didnt manage it, also Lewis would have pulled away at the SC restart when the Red Bulls were struggling


If that's true then why didn't he mount a challenge against Vettel at the restart instead of falling back ?

#766 hammibal

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:29

If that's true then why didn't he mount a challenge against Vettel at the restart instead of falling back ?

He was being held up for the first few laps if you'd have noticed, also DRS is not allowed for the first 2 laps after the SC

#767 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:37

He was being held up for the first few laps if you'd have noticed, also DRS is not allowed for the first 2 laps after the SC


So he was prevented from mounting a challenge on Vettel, because he was being held up by Vettel?

#768 hammibal

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:42

So he was prevented from mounting a challenge on Vettel, because he was being held up by Vettel?

The first few laps he was quicker than Vettel, is it not harder to pass without DRS?

#769 SuperSoft

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:56

I haven't seen this anywhere here, so am wondering whether it was only picked up on the Australian coverage and not Sky?

Before the race started the Aussie commentators, one of whom drove in the Porsche race around the track, highlighted quite a wide painted strip on the track just ahead of Lewis's pit box. They stated then that this might cause more problems for Lewis than anyone because it would be right in the spot where he would need all his traction, just after pulling away, and that it was likely he might suffer a bit through lack of traction off the start.

It is weird that they pointed this out before the race. They mentioned it again afterwards and seemed to suggest it may have contributed to Lewis's poor start.

I am only posting this because there is lots of talk about Lewis having a mistake at the start when I am not so sure it was a mistake but just a lack of traction at a crucial point.

** Actually I have watched the start on YouTube again and it is clear as day that Lewis lost traction on the white line, you can see him lose advantage to Button immediately after he crosses it.

It does beg the question why on Earth there is a big strip of paint in front of the poll sitters start box.


Not suggesting this was the sole cause of Lewis finishing 3rd, he obviously was not on fire on Sunday, but had Button not got past him at the start we would have seen a different race and who knows what would have happened.

Edited by SuperSoft, 20 March 2012 - 22:07.


#770 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:58

The first few laps he was quicker than Vettel, is it not harder to pass without DRS?


The original question was why he didn't mount a challenge on Vettel, while Button was streaking away in front. I don't see that that answers this question, without the conclusion that he just wasn't quite as quick as JB was.


#771 icecream_man

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:03

The first few laps he was quicker than Vettel, is it not harder to pass without DRS?


Yes it is, but the Red Bull, as has already been noted, struggles to get its tyres up to temp in relation to the McLaren, it could have been a possible opportunity but he wasn't close enough to even attempt a move as far as I could see.

tbh I'm still genuinely puzzled by what I saw at the weekend on the whole.

At the start when Jenson got the jump at the first corner I was expecting Lewis to be hounding him to try and get the place back, but Jenson just vanished, which I found quite astounding given it was a dry track, I wasn't expecting that at all
When stuck behind Perez I was expecting a move similar to the one Vettel pulled on Rosberg, but it didn't happen, admittedly it's a hard track to pass on but still, with Perez on worn tyres and Lewis on new ones I expected something.
Then that SC restart as I said, with Red Bull taking longer to get tyres up to temp I again thought that was Lewis' chance and thought he'd be all over Vettel, but he wasn't, far from it, sure he was in dirty air but he didn't seem to have too much in the way of handling problems whilst tucked up behind Perez.

It almost seemed to me like he'd lost a bit of that fighting spirit, the "spark" that we've seen in previous years appeared to be absent. I'm not overly fussed as I'm hoping for a Jenson WDC this year, but I still just found it a bit odd. I expected more out of him than I saw this weekend

#772 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:09

If that's true then why didn't he mount a challenge against Vettel at the restart instead of falling back ?

He tried for a number of laps, realised DRS was ineffective and then intentionally opened up a gap in order to save his tyres.

#773 stairpotato

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:10

Yes it is, but the Red Bull, as has already been noted, struggles to get its tyres up to temp in relation to the McLaren, it could have been a possible opportunity but he wasn't close enough to even attempt a move as far as I could see.

tbh I'm still genuinely puzzled by what I saw at the weekend on the whole.

At the start when Jenson got the jump at the first corner I was expecting Lewis to be hounding him to try and get the place back, but Jenson just vanished, which I found quite astounding given it was a dry track, I wasn't expecting that at all
When stuck behind Perez I was expecting a move similar to the one Vettel pulled on Rosberg, but it didn't happen, admittedly it's a hard track to pass on but still, with Perez on worn tyres and Lewis on new ones I expected something.
Then that SC restart as I said, with Red Bull taking longer to get tyres up to temp I again thought that was Lewis' chance and thought he'd be all over Vettel, but he wasn't, far from it, sure he was in dirty air but he didn't seem to have too much in the way of handling problems whilst tucked up behind Perez.

It almost seemed to me like he'd lost a bit of that fighting spirit, the "spark" that we've seen in previous years appeared to be absent. I'm not overly fussed as I'm hoping for a Jenson WDC this year, but I still just found it a bit odd. I expected more out of him than I saw this weekend


I don't see why anyone would be that surprised to be honest. Jenson had a better 2011 than Lewis, he's clearly demonstrated that on his day he is at least as quick, and potentially quicker than Lewis. A bigger surprise would be if one driver dominated the other over the course of the whole season.

Whilst I think Jenson did a GREAT job, and would like to see him take his second WDC, I don't expect to see Jenson dominated Lewis this year (unless Lewis lets it get to him).




#774 stairpotato

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:11

He tried for a number of laps, realised DRS was ineffective and then intentionally opened up a gap in order to save his tyres.


Fact or supposition?

#775 Andy865

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:17

Obviously the latter.

#776 icecream_man

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:19

Well, bottom line is it was only the first race, lets see how the season goes I guess. Just left me a bit :confused: :confused: is all :)

#777 bonjon1979a

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:45

Generally in reverse though.
When there was refuelling it was nearly always an advantage to stay out longer. The "undercut" has really only been a factor where there is no refuelling and where degradation rates are high i.e. not very often before last year.


Exactly dunder- they may've had this rule for a while but it's only really mattered in the last few years because of ban on refueling and undercut. Previously, pit stops were dictated by the amount of fuel on board - teams had windows to bring the cars in and couldn't really wait, if it was time to come in, they came in and tyre deg wasn't really an issue. It's all changed now and drivers are going to have to be a bit more bolshy to get what they want as teams will do whatever they can to bring their cars home in an orderly fashion as high up as possible -
especially Mclaren who are desperate for the WCC. Hamilton or Jenson, depending on how it goes, may have to take matters into their own hands to win the WDC.

#778 ClockworkRacing

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:49

Man,Lewis is being owned by Jenson,the way Jenson opened that gap was just astonishing,i couldn´t believe my eyes!And just as the bloke above said,Lewis could´ve tried something on Perez,but he didn´t IMO he isn´t totally upbeat and focused as he claims to be,but roll on Malaysia

#779 m0912329

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:50

I am sure had Hamilton was fortunate to pass Perez early enough, he would be easily running away from Vettel for dominant McLaren 1-2. Having said that, I hope they carry on form at Malaysia!

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#780 BigCHrome

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 23:05

The ONLY fact we have been given about pace relating to fuel is that 'extreme' fuel saving was needed from lap 8.

Jenson was able to pull a gap consistently for the first nine laps of the race. It's not unreasonable to see a direct line between the fuel save instruction and pace relative to Lewis slowing somewhat. We know from the SC car period that Jenson was able to pull a gap when he needed to - and Jenson was also able to set fastest lap.

In any event, my initial reason for adding my thoughts here was that it was stated in this thread (by you?) that Jenson was only quicker for the first 2-3 laps after which time it stabilised. This is demonstrably not true. He was quicker for 9 consecutive laps. On lap 8 he was told to save fuel. On lap ten he was suddenly slower than Lewis. Draw your own conclusions.


They drive the same car genius, if Button had to save fuel then so did Hamilton.

#781 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 23:18

They drive the same car genius, if Button had to save fuel then so did Hamilton.

They probably both had to save a bit but there's nothing to say they both had to do the same level of saving. Driving style, traffic and individual racing circumstance will all have an effect

#782 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 23:42

Fact or supposition?

Fact. Lewis stated it after the race.

#783 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 23:43

Obviously the latter.

Obviously not. The article was posted in the McLaren thread after the race if you wish to go hunting for it.

#784 stairpotato

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:52

They drive the same car genius, if Button had to save fuel then so did Hamilton.


Have you ever noticed that in a car the faster you go, the more fuel you use?

Now. What do we know about Jenson's pace versus Lewis's pace in the laps leading up to them both needing to save fuel? Wait, what? Jenson was faster? Oh yeah! Have you had a lightbulb moment yet?




#785 BigCHrome

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:33

Have you ever noticed that in a car the faster you go, the more fuel you use?

Now. What do we know about Jenson's pace versus Lewis's pace in the laps leading up to them both needing to save fuel? Wait, what? Jenson was faster? Oh yeah! Have you had a lightbulb moment yet?


Hahaha oh wow.

Are you really saying that going 3 sec faster over 8 laps would mean that Button had to seriously conserve fuel for the rest of the race while Hamilton could keep his optimal mixture settings....?

Edited by BigCHrome, 21 March 2012 - 05:41.


#786 Raelene

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:40

so far we have

low fuel (even though JB had the same problem)
tyres
a white line on his start
settled for 3rd

have I missed any reasons?

Edited by Raelene, 21 March 2012 - 05:46.


#787 AMG FAN

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:45

So he was prevented from mounting a challenge on Vettel, because he was being held up by Vettel?

Vettel himself said this that he held Lewis up for the first few laps cuz he was struggling to get heat into the tyres...i think Lewis would have been able to hold Vettel off,let's remember that before the SC,Lewis was already fending Vettel off and before he pit,he opened a 1.7 gap....it actually went up to 2.2 from .5 but Vettel cut it down to 1.7 before Lewis went into the pit.

#788 stairpotato

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:11

Hahaha oh wow.

Are you really saying that going 3 sec faster over 8 laps would mean that Button had to seriously conserve fuel for the rest of the race while Hamilton could keep his optimal mixture settings....?


No that's clearly NOT what I'm saying.

For the laps where we know that both cars were running without fuel save, Jenson was significantly faster. Even if you ignore the first two laps, Jenson was then able to pull away at a quarter of a second a lap. This is the ONLY section of the race where we can compare the pace of the two drivers with any certainty.

From lap 8 onwards fuel saving was being used. We don't know what fuel save settings either driver was on and therefore comparing the pace of the drivers becomes more of a problem - because you don't know whether one driver is faster than another because they have more raw pace, or because they are on a different fuel setting.

I don't think this is a particularly complex concept to grasp...

#789 stairpotato

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:14

so far we have

low fuel (even though JB had the same problem)
tyres
a white line on his start
settled for 3rd

have I missed any reasons?


Yes..I'm sure I've seen:

Lewis didn't have as 'good' a set-up
Gear ratios
Engineers caused him to have a bad start
Dirty air!!!



#790 SirRacer

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:16

I think most of us would agree Jenson is beating Hamilton because of the pirelli's.
Of course most of us would also agree that Lewis beat Button in their first year because of the bridgestone's.

What really matters is who is able to be competitive no matter what the circumstances are, and I think between Hamilton and Button, Hamilton gets it.

#791 stairpotato

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:22

I think most of us would agree Jenson is beating Hamilton because of the pirelli's.
Of course most of us would also agree that Lewis beat Button in their first year because of the bridgestone's.

What really matters is who is able to be competitive no matter what the circumstances are, and I think between Hamilton and Button, Hamilton gets it.


I can't work out whether or not you're trying to be funny?

In his career Jenson's been quick on Michelin tyres (3rd in the championship behind the dominant Ferrari), quick on Bridgestone tyres (World Drivers Champion) and quick on Pirelli tyres (runner up 2011).

I fail to see how you make your logic work...

#792 SirRacer

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:31

I can't work out whether or not you're trying to be funny?

In his career Jenson's been quick on Michelin tyres (3rd in the championship behind the dominant Ferrari), quick on Bridgestone tyres (World Drivers Champion) and quick on Pirelli tyres (runner up 2011).

I fail to see how you make your logic work...

Hamilton beat Button fair and square in their only year togheter with bridgestones, in qualy and in race. Also Hamilton (and other drivers) said they can't push the pirellis as much as they did back then with the bridgestones. Given the fact that Button's driving style takes more care of the tires I would say the pirellis suit him more.

And this is how my logic works.

#793 tommyhjortasen

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:48

Have you ever noticed that in a car the faster you go, the more fuel you use?

Now. What do we know about Jenson's pace versus Lewis's pace in the laps leading up to them both needing to save fuel? Wait, what? Jenson was faster? Oh yeah! Have you had a lightbulb moment yet?



I mentioned this in another thread yesterday, it´s not even shore that the drivers started with the same amount of fuel.

#794 stairpotato

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:55

Hamilton beat Button fair and square in their only year togheter with bridgestones, in qualy and in race. Also Hamilton (and other drivers) said they can't push the pirellis as much as they did back then with the bridgestones. Given the fact that Button's driving style takes more care of the tires I would say the pirellis suit him more.

And this is how my logic works.


Except you can't pin the 2010 and 2011 relative performance on just one thing across an entire season.

Hamilton can't push the Pirellis as much as the Bridgestones - but then neither can Jenson - they are different tyres.

If F1 was JUST about the tyres it would be infinitely more straightforward than it really is.

For example:

In 2010 Jenson had no input in the development of the car and was in a driving position he didn't like. He was new to the team, and took time to settle in. He changed Engineer.

In 2011 you could argue that at least some of Lewis's deficit to Jenson was more mental than anything else

Jenson's tyre management whilst good is probably overrated as a factor in performance (for example last weekend Jenson was faster at the START of a stint than towards the end - the reverse of what you'd expect if this was all about tyres.

I know people love to look for easy answers - but the bottom line is that F1 is a complex and nuanced sport - don't expect the reasons for differing performances to be any less complex or nuanced.


#795 zack1994

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:06

I think most of us would agree Jenson is beating Hamilton because of the pirelli's.
Of course most of us would also agree that Lewis beat Button in their first year because of the bridgestone's.

What really matters is who is able to be competitive no matter what the circumstances are, and I think between Hamilton and Button, Hamilton gets it.

Take a look how closer he is in qualifying since 2010 thats has nothing to do with degredation or conserving tyres but he is definitely closer so hows that happened.
2010 was a solid year from jenson but from the start he was on the backfoot not being able to fit in the car properly therefore not sitting in the car the way he wanted, in 2011 and 2012 he was where he wanted to be in the car
Being alot happier with the car balance in 2011 and 2012 than in 2010 which of course means he can show his potential
Having more input in to the car.
Having to change race engineers throughout the 2010 season didn't help, now him and his race engineer have a firm understanding of each other and what jenson wants from the car.


#796 zack1994

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:08

Hamilton beat Button fair and square in their only year togheter with bridgestones, in qualy and in race. Also Hamilton (and other drivers) said they can't push the pirellis as much as they did back then with the bridgestones. Given the fact that Button's driving style takes more care of the tires I would say the pirellis suit him more.

And this is how my logic works.

The only year and jenson firsts year at mclaren.

Edited by zack1994, 21 March 2012 - 07:08.


#797 teejay

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:14

Dirty air!!!


Are you saying there is no dirty air behind other cars?

20 years of F1 engineers have been lying!

#798 SirRacer

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:22

The only year and jenson firsts year at mclaren.

So what, 2007 was Hamilton's first year at McLaren and he could beat Alonso, Alonso.

#799 SirRacer

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:25

Except you can't pin the 2010 and 2011 relative performance on just one thing across an entire season.

Hamilton can't push the Pirellis as much as the Bridgestones - but then neither can Jenson - they are different tyres.

If F1 was JUST about the tyres it would be infinitely more straightforward than it really is.

For example:

In 2010 Jenson had no input in the development of the car and was in a driving position he didn't like. He was new to the team, and took time to settle in. He changed Engineer.

In 2011 you could argue that at least some of Lewis's deficit to Jenson was more mental than anything else

Jenson's tyre management whilst good is probably overrated as a factor in performance (for example last weekend Jenson was faster at the START of a stint than towards the end - the reverse of what you'd expect if this was all about tyres.

I know people love to look for easy answers - but the bottom line is that F1 is a complex and nuanced sport - don't expect the reasons for differing performances to be any less complex or nuanced.

Hamilton will still outqualify Button by a big margin this year, meaning if he could push the tyres during race like he did with the bridgestones he would beat Jenson fair and square. Of course my opinion.


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#800 zack1994

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:37

So what, 2007 was Hamilton's first year at McLaren and he could beat Alonso, Alonso.

Testing if there was testing like there used to be jenson would not have had those problems in 2010.
Also i don't remember lewis saying he didnt fit or sit in the car properly or complaining of balance problems.

Edited by zack1994, 21 March 2012 - 07:38.