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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#851 Kvothe

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:34

He did presumably say it, but it wasn't, was it?


“My race pace was pretty much identical to Jenson’s, but he was able to switch the tyres on extremely well, which explains how he was able to pull a gap so quickly at the start and also after the restart.”


I think if taken in the context of what he said, barring the start and the third stint when stuck behind Vettel, in clean air their race pace was identical. Of course it could never be identical in the pure use of the word but very similar, and this would appear to be backed up by the data kindly provided by the FIA.

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#852 Kvothe

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:35

Wow, never read that comment about Jenson, ever!


It was bound to happen once :p

#853 trogggy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:37

I think if taken in the context of what he said, barring the start and the third stint when stuck behind Vettel, in clean air their race pace was identical. Of course it could never be identical in the pure use of the word but very similar, and this would appear to be backed up by the data kindly provided by the FIA.

Take a look at the start. When do you stop talking about switching tyres on and start talking about race pace? After how many laps?

Edited by trogggy, 21 March 2012 - 17:37.


#854 as65p

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:39

Actually in Buttons place I would really like how LH talks himself into "all is fine, I'm doing okay, nothing to see here, move on". :cat:

#855 fieraku

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:44

Wow, never read that comment about Jenson, ever!

I truly don't understand that comment,Lewis has always been the one that heated tires too fast or faster than all to be safe, which at times resulted in faster degradation.Has Lewis ever had this particular problem,coz I can't recall one,or could it be he's trying to be smoother against his natural aggressive style to make the tires work better thus the glitch?



#856 P123

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:44

Take a look at the start. When do you stop talking about switching tyres on and start talking about race pace? After how many laps?


Depends how long it takes the tyres to come up to operating temp. JB was able to open a gap early each stint, and then Hamilton pegged him which indicated that JB had much superior cold tyre pace. I'm sure Hamilton and his team have access to more data than just bare lap times. Strangely, some seem to be affronted at the mere suggestion that at times Hamilton's lap times were "pretty much identical" to his teammate and "there were periods when Lewis was going a lot quicker than Jenson in that second stint". That's not the same as saying Hamilton would have won, before the inevitable attacks start from the prickly few.

#857 P123

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:46

Actually in Buttons place I would really like how LH talks himself into "all is fine, I'm doing okay, nothing to see here, move on". :cat:


Except he didn't. Button may have superior comprehension, or maybe just doesn't care in comparison to you.  ;)

#858 Kvothe

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:48

Take a look at the start. When do you stop talking about switching tyres on and start talking about race pace? After how many laps?


Are you sceptical of what Lewis has said? If so then take a look at the timing information (I can't access it where i am) and note the laptimes for both drivers for the first few laps. We know JB was setting the fastest laps out of the two, so when Lewis begins to match him, is it because of an increase in his own pace, or a decrease in Jenson's. if its the former and Button's time are still marginally improving, then not only would this support Lewis' explanation that his tyres hadn't warmed up, but you would also get the answer to your question.

#859 Kvothe

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:51

Depends how long it takes the tyres to come up to operating temp. JB was able to open a gap early each stint, and then Hamilton pegged him which indicated that JB had much superior cold tyre pace. I'm sure Hamilton and his team have access to more data than just bare lap times. Strangely, some seem to be affronted at the mere suggestion that at times Hamilton's lap times were "pretty much identical" to his teammate and "there were periods when Lewis was going a lot quicker than Jenson in that second stint". That's not the same as saying Hamilton would have won, before the inevitable attacks start from the prickly few.



I'm sensing that as well, although I can only guess at the reasons.

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#860 fieraku

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 17:59

Are you sceptical of what Lewis has said? If so then take a look at the timing information (I can't access it where i am) and note the laptimes for both drivers for the first few laps. We know JB was setting the fastest laps out of the two, so when Lewis begins to match him, is it because of an increase in his own pace, or a decrease in Jenson's. if its the former and Button's time are still marginally improving, then not only would this support Lewis' explanation that his tyres hadn't warmed up, but you would also get the answer to your question.


I don't see it.Jb does a 32.9 on lap 5 a 33.1 on lap 8 so by then Ham's tyres should've been up to temp no?Hamilton never gets close to those times,it seems like JB was just pacing himself to the first pitstop.

Lap

+/- gap JB LH
1 1:39.264 (SU )[1] 1:40.622 (SU )[2] -1.358 -1.358 1
2 1:33.414 [1] 1:34.297 [2] -0.883 -2.241 2
3 1:33.350 [1] 1:33.566 [2] -0.216 -2.457 3
4 1:33.131 [1] 1:33.347 [2] -0.216 -2.673 4
5 1:32.984 [1] 1:33.446 [2] -0.462 -3.135 5
6 1:33.117 [1] 1:33.380 [2] -0.263 -3.398 6
7 1:33.244 [1] 1:33.315 [2] -0.071 -3.469 7
8 1:33.124 [1] 1:33.461 [2] -0.337 -3.806 8
9 1:33.394 [1] 1:33.561 [2] -0.167 -3.973 9
10 1:33.767 [1] 1:33.471 [2] +0.296 -3.677 1
11 1:33.985 [1] 1:33.617 [2] +0.368 -3.309 2
12 1:33.628 [1] 1:33.732 [2] -0.104 -3.413 10
13 1:33.970 [1] 1:33.881 [2] +0.089 -3.324 3
14 1:34.164 [1] 1:34.255 [2] -0.091 -3.415 11
15 1:34.645 [1] 1:34.730 [2] -0.085 -3.500 12

Edited by fieraku, 21 March 2012 - 18:02.


#861 trogggy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 18:22

Are you sceptical of what Lewis has said?

Yep.

If so then take a look at the timing information (I can't access it where i am) and note the laptimes for both drivers for the first few laps.

I did. That's why I'm sceptical.

We know JB was setting the fastest laps out of the two, so when Lewis begins to match him, is it because of an increase in his own pace, or a decrease in Jenson's. if its the former and Button's time are still marginally improving, then not only would this support Lewis' explanation that his tyres hadn't warmed up, but you would also get the answer to your question.

LH started to match him when they were both told to save fuel.  ;)

#862 trogggy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 18:23

Strangely, some seem to be affronted at the mere suggestion that at times Hamilton's lap times were "pretty much identical" to his teammate and "there were periods when Lewis was going a lot quicker than Jenson in that second stint". That's not the same as saying Hamilton would have won, before the inevitable attacks start from the prickly few.

If that's aimed at me then I suggest you should take a look at my recent posting, because you couldn't be further from the truth.

#863 stairpotato

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 18:32

I don't see it.Jb does a 32.9 on lap 5 a 33.1 on lap 8 so by then Ham's tyres should've been up to temp no?Hamilton never gets close to those times,it seems like JB was just pacing himself to the first pitstop.

Lap

+/- gap JB LH
1 1:39.264 (SU )[1] 1:40.622 (SU )[2] -1.358 -1.358 1
2 1:33.414 [1] 1:34.297 [2] -0.883 -2.241 2
3 1:33.350 [1] 1:33.566 [2] -0.216 -2.457 3
4 1:33.131 [1] 1:33.347 [2] -0.216 -2.673 4
5 1:32.984 [1] 1:33.446 [2] -0.462 -3.135 5
6 1:33.117 [1] 1:33.380 [2] -0.263 -3.398 6
7 1:33.244 [1] 1:33.315 [2] -0.071 -3.469 7
8 1:33.124 [1] 1:33.461 [2] -0.337 -3.806 8
9 1:33.394 [1] 1:33.561 [2] -0.167 -3.973 9
10 1:33.767 [1] 1:33.471 [2] +0.296 -3.677 1
11 1:33.985 [1] 1:33.617 [2] +0.368 -3.309 2
12 1:33.628 [1] 1:33.732 [2] -0.104 -3.413 10
13 1:33.970 [1] 1:33.881 [2] +0.089 -3.324 3
14 1:34.164 [1] 1:34.255 [2] -0.091 -3.415 11
15 1:34.645 [1] 1:34.730 [2] -0.085 -3.500 12


This is the point I keep making - right up until McLaren ordered their 'extreme' fuel saving - Jenson was on average a quarter of a second a lap faster (and even faster than that if you factor in the first two laps.

Whatever way you look at it - when both drivers were able to drive exactly as they pleased - Jenson was significantly quicker.

I'm not saying it's going to be like that every time - but you can't just write off last weekend.

#864 MP422

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 18:39

If that's aimed at me then I suggest you should take a look at my recent posting, because you couldn't be further from the truth.


Well you do reply to every poster with a prickly interrogating question ! look back in the thread.

#865 trogggy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 18:40

Well you do reply to every poster with a prickly interrogating question ! look back in the thread.

:cry:

#866 as65p

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 18:48

Except he didn't. Button may have superior comprehension, or maybe just doesn't care in comparison to you. ;)


Who didn't what?

Can't you hear the allmighty sigh of relief coming from LH's statement, that he has found a means to explain away his defeat last sunday?  ;)

#867 sofarapartguy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:04

I still got the feeling that Jenson had more pace in him - there was just no need to pull a bigger gap to Hamilton, specially of to talk about tire managment. Last year Vettel had bigger advantage in race pace, but he wasn't pushing on every single lap - these days 3-5-7 seconds of a gap is pretty enough to control the race.

#868 Afterburner

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:06

Lewis said his race pace was identical, not that he was faster, so there is no implication that this was a one off result.

If his pace was merely identical to Jenson's, wouldn't that indicate that this one was a one-off in the sense that he's typically known to be quicker than Jense on race-day, especially when starting ahead of him?

You could say I'm trying to be nice here (:p), but even as a strong believer in Button's ability I still feel Hamilton will be a threat for the title this year as long as his mental state remains stable. Lewis may be down but I'm certainly not declaring him 'out' yet.

#869 fed up

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:08

http://www.f1fanatic...yres-extremely/

Interesting new information:

Lewis:

The point about the race pace is pretty much what most of us have been saying, although it is reasurring to know that the gap Jenson pulled at the beginning was down to him being able to get the heat into his tyres earlier and not an outright pace advantage.


Saying Jenson got the car dialled in better is effectively admitting he was faster. But Lewis doesn't just say that - accept it and move on. It's as if he can't bring himself to accept that Jenson can sometimes be faster. Jenson can.

Lewis will win the odd race for sure but I can't see him beating Jenson over a season. His judgement is clouded by a lack of humility. He doesn't respect the other drivers so he blames himslef when he gets beaten - never gives credit where it's due. He respected Alonso and rose to the challenge - he doesn't respect Button so will think he just has to turn up in the right frame of mind and he'll thrash him. He won't of course.

When Jenson was getting thrashed by Lewis - he admitted it and worked hard to get on terms. Now he is on Lewis' level I can't see him getting compacent - he wknows how to kick a man when he's down - ask JV.

There's plenty more pain and medicine to come before the season is out - Lewis better get used.

Pride comes before the fall.


#870 tommyhjortasen

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:09

Who didn't what?

Can't you hear the allmighty sigh of relief coming from LH's statement, that he has found a means to explain away his defeat last sunday? ;)



Sure could, but he must be in some "angst" now when a new race is coming up this weekend.

I take it for sure that Jenson will have the upper hand if it rains or the track is damp.

#871 TeamMacca

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:10

Just watching the Flying lap and apparently, Lewis had a bit of wheelspin at the practice start, his engineers game him new clutch settings which infact made it worse, so once again Mclaren mess it up for Lewis :-)

#872 fieraku

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:11

Who didn't what?

Can't you hear the allmighty sigh of relief coming from LH's statement, that he has found a means to explain away his defeat last sunday? ;)

That's not funny if he really believes that,because without live timing and just looking at a screen it was obvious he had no pace and wasn't matching anything,JB opened a 4 second gap which on these tires it seems enough or it did in OZ,and then cruised on from there.

I hope this is some PR stunt,because if not then they haven't learned anything and this "one off" might turn into a couple or a handful.

#873 as65p

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:13

....but even as a strong believer in Button's ability I still feel Hamilton will be a threat for the title this year as long as his mental state remains stable. Lewis may be down but I'm certainly not declaring him 'out' yet.


This. And the bolded is key. Hamilton definitely has the driving ability and talent to dig it out with Button all season long, no question. Buttons advantage is that he will carry on regardless even if Hamilton manages to beat him two or three times in row. If the opposite happens... I think Hamilton would disintegrate.

Go Jenson! :)

#874 mlsnoopy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:17

It isn't just one stop, is it? He goes early for stop one (wouldn't be one lap early, surely two?) then presumably early for the next one and the next one - before you know it you're five or six laps out of kilter vs the strategy and the tyres go off the cliff in the last stint. All this in the first full race distance on this tyre combination on an ever-changing track. If you think Hamilton has all that worked out better than McLaren then it is you that are talking nonsense.


How do you get six laps. So if he has a short fitst stint and than normal 2nd and 3rd stint he is only 2 laps short, isn't he. Not 6 as you would like to belive. He only needs to extend the life of the prime tyres for 1 lap each. Surely that is better than desrtoying a tyre trying to pass a car.

You are saying they should have hopped into their McLaren Time Machine™, run forward to the end of the race, checked to see if their final stint tyres would hold up and not go off the cliff, then back in the Time Machine and subtract whatever laps were needed to keep Hamilton happy?

Here's an alternative to that, which could have been achieved without time travel - how about Hamilton uses his widely vaunted overtaking skills to get past the Sauber which is on old tyres?


But he did pass him. The point is that with the correct strategy he wouldn't even need to pass him risk destroying the tyres when doing the passinf, risk contact,.... That is the point. The team is putting him at unnecessery risk on track, the same thing has been happening for the past 2 years. Button gets helped but Hamilton is left on its own and needs to get the resault with driving.

#875 as65p

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:17

That's not funny if he really believes that,because without live timing and just looking at a screen it was obvious he had no pace and wasn't matching anything,JB opened a 4 second gap which on these tires it seems enough or it did in OZ,and then cruised on from there.

I hope this is some PR stunt,because if not then they haven't learned anything and this "one off" might turn into a couple or a handful.


Can't believe I'm encouraging you :eek:  ;) , but on the bright side, if LH beats Button next sunday (which is of course absolutely possible) he might get away once more with this kind of delusion. If not, it will become increasingly hard for him, mentally.

#876 as65p

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:22

How do you get six laps. So if he has a short fitst stint and than normal 2nd and 3rd stint he is only 2 laps short, isn't he. Not 6 as you would like to belive. He only needs to extend the life of the prime tyres for 1 lap each. Surely that is better than desrtoying a tyre trying to pass a car.



But he did pass him. The point is that with the correct strategy he wouldn't even need to pass him risk destroying the tyres when doing the passinf, risk contact,.... That is the point. The team is putting him at unnecessery risk on track, the same thing has been happening for the past 2 years. Button gets helped but Hamilton is left on its own and needs to get the resault with driving.


Wut? :drunk:

Your last posts are far worse than any conspiracies I read from Alonso die-hards in 2007. And that's really saying something!

#877 Dunder

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:25

How do you get six laps. So if he has a short fitst stint and than normal 2nd and 3rd stint he is only 2 laps short, isn't he. Not 6 as you would like to belive. He only needs to extend the life of the prime tyres for 1 lap each. Surely that is better than desrtoying a tyre trying to pass a car.



But he did pass him. The point is that with the correct strategy he wouldn't even need to pass him risk destroying the tyres when doing the passinf, risk contact,.... That is the point. The team is putting him at unnecessery risk on track, the same thing has been happening for the past 2 years. Button gets helped but Hamilton is left on its own and needs to get the resault with driving.


The the "correct" strategy he would have come out between Raikkonen and Perez.
At that point the Lotus was just as likely to be going many more laps before pitting.


#878 Lazy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:36

Just watching the Flying lap and apparently, Lewis had a bit of wheelspin at the practice start, his engineers game him new clutch settings which infact made it worse, so once again Mclaren mess it up for Lewis :-)


It happens too often to be coincidence, it can only be deliberate sabotage by Whitless to help out his boyfriend :mad:

#879 Coral

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:38

This. And the bolded is key. Hamilton definitely has the driving ability and talent to dig it out with Button all season long, no question. Buttons advantage is that he will carry on regardless even if Hamilton manages to beat him two or three times in row. If the opposite happens... I think Hamilton would disintegrate.

Go Jenson! :)


So you want Lewis to "disintegrate" do you? That is not very sporting, is it? I have read several comments like that by Button fans and it disturbs me that so many of them seem to want Jenson to destroy Lewis mentally. Sadly, I think Jenson already has Lewis on the ropes...I fear for Lewis's entire future in F1 at the moment. :|

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#880 Lazy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:43

So you want Lewis to "disintegrate" do you? That is not very sporting, is it? I have read several comments like that by Button fans and it disturbs me that so many of them seem to want Jenson to destroy Lewis mentally. Sadly, I think Jenson already has Lewis on the ropes...I fear for Lewis's entire future in F1 at the moment. :|


It's hard to imagine you being too upset if it were Jenson disintegrating.

#881 as65p

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:46

So you want Lewis to "disintegrate" do you? That is not very sporting, is it? I have read several comments like that by Button fans and it disturbs me that so many of them seem to want Jenson to destroy Lewis mentally. Sadly, I think Jenson already has Lewis on the ropes...I fear for Lewis's entire future in F1 at the moment. :|


Every top sport is a mental as much as a physical game.

#882 gricey1981

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:48

This. And the bolded is key. Hamilton definitely has the driving ability and talent to dig it out with Button all season long, no question. Buttons advantage is that he will carry on regardless even if Hamilton manages to beat him two or three times in row. If the opposite happens... I think Hamilton would disintegrate.

Go Jenson! :)


Do you reckon he will throw all his toys out like Fred did when he was beaten and couldnt handle it?

#883 as65p

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:52

Do you reckon he will throw all his toys out like Fred did when he was beaten and couldnt handle it?


I don't think he's tough enough to go down fighting like Alonso.

#884 gricey1981

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:54

I don't think he's tough enough to go down fighting like Alonso.


he didn't really go down fighting did he what with threatening the team about going to the FIA and all.

So do you think he will get all bitchy and threatening like Fred did or do you think he will handle it better than that?

#885 as65p

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:56

he didn't really go down fighting did he what with threatening the team about going to the FIA and all.

So do you think he will get all bitchy and threatening like Fred did or do you think he will handle it better than that?


How often do you intend to re-phrase the question? Let's face it, fat chance that I'll ever give the answer that would please you. :wave:

#886 ForeverF1

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 19:59

Enough about Hamilton vs. Alonso thanks. Please keep to the topic of Lewis vs. Jenson.

#887 robefc

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 20:04

I unfortunately don't have access to the same information as lewis and his engineers but if they've found a genuine reason (set up or whatever) for his lack of pace to jenson then I'll be as mightily relieved as him.

His comments about identical race pace notwithstanding if he's feeling upbeat after the analysis I presume it's not just him seeing things and his engineers have also found evidence for him to be upbeat.

Pity about the start, these things happen in F1 but really really bad timing after his 2011, a great start would have been such a boost. On the other hand, given button's superior, perhaps we (lewis fans) were spared a more psychologically damaging defeat.

Can't wait for this weekend but don't want the comedown on a sunday like last weekend or too many weekends last season!

#888 hammibal

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 20:52

I truly don't understand that comment,Lewis has always been the one that heated tires too fast or faster than all to be safe, which at times resulted in faster degradation.Has Lewis ever had this particular problem,coz I can't recall one,or could it be he's trying to be smoother against his natural aggressive style to make the tires work better thus the glitch?

Maybe this had something to do with Jenson running more downforce?


This. And the bolded is key. Hamilton definitely has the driving ability and talent to dig it out with Button all season long, no question. Buttons advantage is that he will carry on regardless even if Hamilton manages to beat him two or three times in row. If the opposite happens... I think Hamilton would disintegrate.

Go Jenson! :)

Sometimes i want Lewis to do well just too upset some posters on here

#889 Dalton007

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 20:53

So you want Lewis to "disintegrate" do you? That is not very sporting, is it? I have read several comments like that by Button fans and it disturbs me that so many of them seem to want Jenson to destroy Lewis mentally. Sadly, I think Jenson already has Lewis on the ropes...I fear for Lewis's entire future in F1 at the moment. :|


Pots and kettles, my dear. I've read some of your unflattering comments about Jenson.



#890 Peter Perfect

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 21:07

So you want Lewis to "disintegrate" do you? That is not very sporting, is it? I have read several comments like that by Button fans and it disturbs me that so many of them seem to want Jenson to destroy Lewis mentally. Sadly, I think Jenson already has Lewis on the ropes...I fear for Lewis's entire future in F1 at the moment. :|


I completely agree. I want to see a great sporting rivalry, not one driver 'destroying' another just because I have an irrational hatred of one of them.

...
The mere thought of Button taking the No.1 from Lewis makes me feel queasy. :well: I can't wait for next season to see Button get well and truly thrashed by Nico.




#891 Lazy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 21:09

I completely agree. I want to see a great sporting rivalry, not one driver 'destroying' another just because I have an irrational hatred of one of them.

:)


#892 Lights

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 21:26

I completely agree. I want to see a great sporting rivalry, not one driver 'destroying' another just because I have an irrational hatred of one of them.

:D

#893 Coral

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 21:33

Pots and kettles, my dear. I've read some of your unflattering comments about Jenson.


So what. I have never hidden the fact that I don't like Button...I don't think he's a nice guy at all, in fact he is the driver that I trust least. Poor Lewis! However I would not wish any of them to have a mental breakdown.

#894 sofarapartguy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 21:37

Just noticed.

Of all current drivers Button has the most races at Sepang - 12. The next are Schumacher, Alonso and Webba with 10. Who would've thought..

Edited by sofarapartguy, 21 March 2012 - 21:38.


#895 Lights

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 21:50

So what. I have never hidden the fact that I don't like Button...I don't think he's a nice guy at all, in fact he is the driver that I trust least. Poor Lewis! However I would not wish any of them to have a mental breakdown.

Nobody said they do.

#896 Kvothe

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 22:04

Yep.

I did. That's why I'm sceptical.

LH started to match him when they were both told to save fuel. ;)


Lewis does two 1:34s on the first two laps, and then slips down to the low 33s so I think there was a definite tire warming issue, for the first two laps. Of course after that Lewis seems to be only around two tenths down (with some variations obviously.

Just throwing it out there, so don't attack me, but dirty air anyone?

#897 Force Ten

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 22:22

Lewis does two 1:34s on the first two laps, and then slips down to the low 33s so I think there was a definite tire warming issue, for the first two laps. Of course after that Lewis seems to be only around two tenths down (with some variations obviously.

Just throwing it out there, so don't attack me, but dirty air anyone?

Last year when Button dropped back 1,5 seconds and kept the gap he "was just slow" and "unable to keep up", remember? :)

#898 Kvothe

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 22:26

Last year when Button dropped back 1,5 seconds and kept the gap he "was just slow" and "unable to keep up", remember? :)


What race was that? Malaysia? Who said that? :)

Edited by Kvothe, 21 March 2012 - 22:26.


#899 Force Ten

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 22:30

What race was that? Malaysia? Who said that? :)

Pretty much every race where he could keep up... There were several. There, of course were several where he couldn't keep up aswell. Who? Your regular peanut gallery, I suppose. They seem less vocal this year and some have even jumped ship :drunk:

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#900 hammibal

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 22:54

Sorry if it hurt your feelings when someone prefers one driver over the other in a "vs." thread.

It comes across as a negative preference though