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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#901 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 23:04

Don't they all?

Please keep this about the drivers and not each other.

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#902 trogggy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 00:23

Lewis does two 1:34s on the first two laps, and then slips down to the low 33s so I think there was a definite tire warming issue, for the first two laps. Of course after that Lewis seems to be only around two tenths down (with some variations obviously.

Just throwing it out there, so don't attack me, but dirty air anyone?

Dirty air 3 seconds back?

Err, no. :p

#903 Lazy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:09

Sometimes i want Lewis to do well just too upset some posters on here


:D

Some of us are still waiting for apologies for mockery/abuse received in 2010 :)

#904 Lights

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:20

Dirty air 3 seconds back?

Err, no. :p

Actually during the Korea qualifying of 2011, Andy Latham race engineer of Lewis Hamilton, told him he would need a gap of at least 5 seconds to completely avoid the effects of dirty air. If that's the minimum difference to avoid the effects its likely that being within 3 seconds means there was still an effect of some kind.

#905 gricey1981

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:45

Actually during the Korea qualifying of 2011, Andy Latham race engineer of Lewis Hamilton, told him he would need a gap of at least 5 seconds to completely avoid the effects of dirty air. If that's the minimum difference to avoid the effects its likely that being within 3 seconds means there was still an effect of some kind.


It seems an awful long way back though doesnt it if true.

I wonder if it explains why the leader is able to get a jump on everybody at the start.

#906 gricey1981

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:46

:D

Some of us are still waiting for apologies for mockery/abuse received in 2010 :)



Touche! well I was wrong... looks like Button isnt too terrible after all. :)

#907 Force Ten

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:53

It seems an awful long way back though doesnt it if true.

I wonder if it explains why the leader is able to get a jump on everybody at the start.

It doesn't make sense though. If true then by lap 5 the race would always be something like leader/3sec gap/2nd/3sec gap/3rd/3sec gap/4th/3sec gap/ going on forever. Yet it never happens, some fellas sit right at the exhaustpipes of the guy in front, some drop back immediately, some try to maintain a gap.

#908 trogggy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:33

Actually during the Korea qualifying of 2011, Andy Latham race engineer of Lewis Hamilton, told him he would need a gap of at least 5 seconds to completely avoid the effects of dirty air. If that's the minimum difference to avoid the effects its likely that being within 3 seconds means there was still an effect of some kind.

I remember the post.
What are you saying though? That he did have the same pace in those laps (3-9 or so)?

#909 Lazy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:21

Touche! well I was wrong... looks like Button isnt too terrible after all. :)


:)


#910 ayanate

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:47

Lewis Hamilton has not shown up to this point that he understands this sport enough to win consistently. F1 is not about just driving a car very fast, there is so much more to it than that. In my opinion, it is the subtle aspects of strategy that is really lacking and a bit of discipline as well.

I don't believe he planned with his side of the garage what he would do if Jenson got in front of him at the start of the race. He should have planned for that scenario knowing fully well that running behind Jenson's turbulent air will mean that his tyres will probably degrade quicker, so he MUST pit first. This is simple for anyone to see, it doesn't appear that Hamilton gets it. It seems to me that everytime JB is in front of LH, the team just turn their focus on JB and leave Lewis to roast his tyres (Mclaren - well JB is managing just fine so deal with it Lewis). Oh why can't that boy read his team the riot act? He has earned his number 1 joint status in the team, why surrender it so meekly to Jenson?

I'm so upset with Lewis for getting rid of his dad who we now see was obviously the brains behind the scene. The first race of 2012 shows that nothing has changed, he is number 2 and he is slowly going through an acceptance of status process; 'I have a great life', 'not many people are lucky to get into F1' etc.

#911 mich

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:49

I think Lewis doesn't find better use of Pirelli even now.
On the other hand, Jenson found it or his natural driving style is more suitable to Pirelli.

Kamui Kobayashi said in Japanese that because of Pirelli 2011 was a difficult season for drivers braking lately, shifting weight to front and cornering with front grip.
These drivers are not only Kobayashi but also Webber, Massa, Schumacher and of course Lewis Hamilton.
They tended to loose their grip earlier than their team mates.
Especially driving style of Lewis with Bridgestone was very hard for his front and it was a key of his remarkable pace.
Yasuhide Hamashima who was a chief director of Bridgestone and now in Ferrari said "Lewis use his inner front tyre very hardly, like cornering with only it."

IMO he failed to improve his driving style; he is unnecessarily cautious.
I remember Villeneuve said like that "Don't change his aggressive style or he loose his pace."
He struggled to overtake Perez last weekend. (also Schumacher last year Italian GP).
Don't you think it means he lost both his aggressive style and pace?

Edited by mich, 22 March 2012 - 09:07.


#912 WitnessX

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:53

Actually during the Korea qualifying of 2011, Andy Latham race engineer of Lewis Hamilton, told him he would need a gap of at least 5 seconds to completely avoid the effects of dirty air. If that's the minimum difference to avoid the effects its likely that being within 3 seconds means there was still an effect of some kind.

He did not say anything about "dirty air" !!

Engineer (presumably Latham) on Radio:
"Everyone is bunched up at the moment, (I) suggest we need at least a five second gap to Webber ahead by the time you start your lap" (sic)

Any conclusion that it primarily because of "dirty air" and not as buffer zone to cover catching up the driver in front, or them having problems does not make any sense to me.

#913 zack1994

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:56

He did not say anything about "dirty air" !!

Engineer (presumably Latham) on Radio:
"Everyone is bunched up at the moment, (I) suggest we need at least a five second gap to Webber ahead by the time you start your lap" (sic)

Any conclusion that it primarily because of "dirty air" and not as buffer zone to cover catching up the driver in front, or them having problems does not make any sense to me.

I was just about to ask whether he mentioned dirty air in this quote obviously not.


#914 ayanate

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:12

I think Lewis doesn't find better use of Pirelli even now.
On the other hand, Jenson found it or his natural driving style is more suitable to Pirelli.

Kamui Kobayashi said in Japanese that because of Pirelli 2011 was a difficult season for drivers braking lately, shifting weight to front and cornering with front grip.
These drivers are not only Kobayashi but also Webber, Massa, Schumacher and of course Lewis Hamilton.
They tended to loose their grip earlier than their team mates.
Especially driving style of Lewis with Bridgestone was very hard for his front and it was a key of his remarkable pace.
Yasuhide Hamashima who was a chief director of Bridgestone and now in Ferrari said "Lewis use his inner front tyre very hardly, like cornering with only it."

IMO he failed to improve his driving style; he is unnecessarily cautious.
I remember Villeneuve said like that "Don't change his aggressive style or he loose his pace."
He struggled to overtake Perez last weekend. (also Schumacher last year Italian GP).
Don't you think it is mean he lost both his aggressive style and pace?


This to LH fans is an excuse, his adaptability is supposed to be one of his key strengths. You can make a point that strategy over a season will account for more points than overtaking. The weakness in strategy is his biggest problem now with JB matching him for speed. JB came to Mclaren to learn how to go faster and has done a fantastic job of it.

#915 Nigol

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:15

Didn't they need a 3 sec gap to Jenson in Suzuka Q3 last year to be not affected by dirty air?

Jenson has beaten him this time, how knows how it will be this weekend.

#916 libano

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:17

Lewis Hamilton has not shown up to this point that he understands this sport enough to win consistently. F1 is not about just driving a car very fast, there is so much more to it than that. In my opinion, it is the subtle aspects of strategy that is really lacking and a bit of discipline as well.


yet compared to jenson, he's won considerably more gp's in considerably less races. i wouldn't underestimate him. they all hit a rough patch at some point. he's still a young guy and will come around.


#917 Kraken

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:19

Lewis does two 1:34s on the first two laps, and then slips down to the low 33s so I think there was a definite tire warming issue, for the first two laps. Of course after that Lewis seems to be only around two tenths down (with some variations obviously.

Just throwing it out there, so don't attack me, but dirty air anyone?

Lewis himself said that Jensen was able to switch the tyres on extremely well and that was the difference in the race. If he thought it was because he was in dirty air I would have thought he would have said that.

#918 ayanate

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:22

yet compared to jenson, he's won considerably more gp's in considerably less races. i wouldn't underestimate him. they all hit a rough patch at some point. he's still a young guy and will come around.



Are you serious mate? LH started in F1 with a winning car, JB had to wait five years in F1 until a rain-soaked Hungarian GP in 2006 to win his first GP. JB's saving grace was always that his team mates never won either, didn't believe it then, I do now.

#919 zack1994

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:26

yet compared to jenson, he's won considerably more gp's in considerably less races. i wouldn't underestimate him. they all hit a rough patch at some point. he's still a young guy and will come around.

With considerably better cars to be fair and being probably the best prepared driver to come in to f1, but yeah i agree he will be very strong throughout the year and anyone underestimating him are setting themselves up to look stupid.

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#920 libano

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:49

Are you serious mate? LH started in F1 with a winning car, JB had to wait five years in F1 until a rain-soaked Hungarian GP in 2006 to win his first GP.


i know that. but looking at hamilton's stats, they suggest to me that he understands the sport well enough to win consistently. he's won several gp's each year since his debut in 2007, in cars that were more or less competitive. how many gp's has kovalainen won in his 2 years at McLaren? give credit where credit's due. i don't think lewis ever had a car as superior as the 2009 brawn, which kind of levels out the stats.

#921 bauss

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:55

If the hysteria by many here has any credence, LH will be reduced to a Massa at the end of this season.

We shall see

#922 GlenP

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:58

i know that. but looking at hamilton's stats, they suggest to me that he understands the sport well enough to win consistently. he's won several gp's each year since his debut in 2007, in cars that were more or less competitive. how many gp's has kovalainen won in his 2 years at McLaren? give credit where credit's due. i don't think lewis ever had a car as superior as the 2009 brawn, which kind of levels out the stats.

Doubts of that kind are the reason to look closely at the races where the two of them have identical cars and opportunities.

Lewis has had a unique opportunity, but he has also delivered in the face of the pressure of that opportunity which is not to be underestimated. That's a reasonable conclusion - taking that further and comparing it to Jenson's earlier career fortunes is not reasonable in the same way.

#923 trogggy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:00

If the hysteria by many here has any credence, LH will be reduced to a Massa at the end of this season.

We shall see

Don't worry. If it had any credence Button would have been destroyed in the first half dozen races of 2010.

#924 GlenP

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:01

If the hysteria by many here has any credence, LH will be reduced to a Massa at the end of this season.

We shall see

I also don't think the doom is warranted. Neither driver is going to get beaten every time, as shown by their pairing over the two years. The really daft ideas are coming from people who expected a complete turn-around for no reason other than hope. The final result will be on balance - any ideas of dominance and all that nonsense are strictly for the nutters.

#925 Kvothe

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:23

He did not say anything about "dirty air" !!

Engineer (presumably Latham) on Radio:
"Everyone is bunched up at the moment, (I) suggest we need at least a five second gap to Webber ahead by the time you start your lap" (sic)

Any conclusion that it primarily because of "dirty air" and not as buffer zone to cover catching up the driver in front, or them having problems does not make any sense to me.


Yes but after Andy says that Brundle who was commentating for the BBC said word for word:

So you don't get the turbolent air coming off the back, the air that's worked so hard as it crosses the bodywork of this Red Bull car

Obviously that doesn't prove anything really and I only threw out the point half in jest, which is why I'm apathetic to defend it. However if you think that cars can generally lose seconds if right behind a car and unable to pass, then to still be 3 seconds away would surely have an effect of some kind.

Reaching? Possibly.

Edited by Kvothe, 22 March 2012 - 10:24.


#926 Kvothe

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:28

Lewis himself said that Jensen was able to switch the tyres on extremely well and that was the difference in the race. If he thought it was because he was in dirty air I would have thought he would have said that.


The switching on of tires Was an explanation of the fact that Jenson took over a second a lap out of Lewis until the third lap. The dirty air was a possible suggestion to explain why Lewis said their race pace was identical after that, when at least for the first stint Lewis was on average two tenths down.

Keep up :wave: :)

Edited by Kvothe, 22 March 2012 - 10:31.


#927 trogggy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:33

The switching on of tires Was an explanation of the fact that Jenson took over a second a lap out of Lewis until the third lap. The dirty air was a possible suggestion to explain why Lewis said their race pace was identical after that, when at least for the first stint Lewis was on average two tenths down.

Keep up :wave: :)

If JB was 3 seconds behind LH and losing at least 2 tenths a lap consistently would you say his pace was the same as Lewis'?

Honestly?

#928 Kvothe

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:42

If JB was 3 seconds behind LH and losing at least 2 tenths a lap consistently would you say his pace was the same as Lewis'?

Honestly?


I honestly I don't know. This isn't really a discussion I want to have particularly because I can't pretend to know the science of dirty air, its duration, its effect ect. Which is why I didn't reply to your previous comment using the Andy Latham quote like Light did. I'm happy to have it as a possible explanation, with the fact that JB may have been faster another possible explanation.

Its also hard to answer because last year Lewis and JB hardly ran in tandem in clear dry conditions. Only in Malaysia and briefly Japan did this happen and in the former case JB was on softs in comparison to Lewis' hards, and in Japan Lewis suffered massive tire degradation. So its not like there have been many arguments about this.

I only answered the above two comments, because the first one seemed to imply I was making stuff up, and the second one seemed confused about why I was bringing it up.

#929 trogggy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:49

I honestly I don't know. This isn't really a discussion I want to have particularly because I can't pretend to know the science of dirty air, its duration, its effect ect. Which is why I didn't reply to your previous comment using the Andy Latham quote like Light did. I'm happy to have it as a possible explanation, with the fact that JB may have been faster another possible explanation.

Its also hard to answer because last year Lewis and JB hardly ran in tandem in clear dry conditions. Only in Malaysia and briefly Japan did this happen and in the former case JB was on softs in comparison to Lewis' hards, and in Japan Lewis suffered massive tire degradation. So its not like there have been many arguments about this.

I only answered the above two comments, because the first one seemed to imply I was making stuff up, and the second one seemed confused about why I was bringing it up.

Just to be clear - I don't think it's you who's making stuff up. You're just reporting it.  ;)
I can't honestly see how anyone can make a claim of equal pace in Aus though. There might well be good reasons for the difference in pace that we're unaware of, but that's not the same thing.

It'll be interesting to see how this thread develops the next time Lewis is a few tenths quicker, anyway.


#930 Kvothe

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:55

Just to be clear - I don't think it's you who's making stuff up. You're just reporting it. ;)
I can't honestly see how anyone can make a claim of equal pace in Aus though. There might well be good reasons for the difference in pace that we're unaware of, but that's not the same thing.

It'll be interesting to see how this thread develops the next time Lewis is a few tenths quicker, anyway.

Agreed

#931 sofarapartguy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:03

Gee... I've never seen such a desperate try to throw the possible and painfull truth out of the window.

More than 5 pages of excuses, bigger excuses and even more bigger excuses. Why not accept the possibility that Lewis was just not fast enough.

And we still bring here some "dirty air", "tire heating issues", etc.

I mean c'mon, you've been very intelligent and logical last year and during winter. And now it all sounds like blind fanboyism.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 22 March 2012 - 11:04.


#932 engel

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:06

The switching on of tires Was an explanation of the fact that Jenson took over a second a lap out of Lewis until the third lap. The dirty air was a possible suggestion to explain why Lewis said their race pace was identical after that, when at least for the first stint Lewis was on average two tenths down.

Keep up :wave: :)


If dirty air was a panacea then nobody would ever catch up to the driver ahead on the road

#933 Kvothe

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:11

Gee... I've never seen such a desperate try to throw the possible and painfull truth out of the window.

More than 5 pages of excuses, bigger excuses and even more bigger excuses. Why not accept the possibility that Lewis was just not fast enough.

And we still bring here some "dirty air", "tire heating issues", etc.

I mean c'mon, you've been very intelligent and logical last year and during winter. And now it all sounds like blind fanboyism.


:lol: que?



#934 sofarapartguy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:15

:lol: que?


That was my initial thought when I read the "dirty air" part...

#935 zack1994

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:28

Some words from jenson and lewis.
Here

#936 Kvothe

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:38

That was my initial thought when I read the "dirty air" part...


Ok ;) :rolleyes:

Edited by Kvothe, 22 March 2012 - 11:38.


#937 Lazy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:54

Every race Lewis loses we get this little dance on here where Lewis fans find, and convince themselves of, reasons why it wasn't TDG's fault. Anyone who watched the race however could clearly see that Jenson was quicker and even had pace to spare. Lewis knew it after the race, hence the long face, even if he is trying to find mitigating circumstances now.

Edit: Some Lewis fans I hasten to add :)

Edited by Lazy, 22 March 2012 - 11:57.


#938 Kvothe

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:11

^^ I hope that isn't aimed at me Lazy.

Lewis said that after debriefing with his engineers his race pace was practically identical.
trogggy pointed out it wasn't via the lap times.
Without any knowledge of what it is Lewis and his engineers looked at and in an attempt to explain why Lewis would say that I offered the possible explanation of dirty air.

Apart from my reply to the attempts to discredit me, and the usual confusion that stems from not following the argument that's pretty much it.

Edited by Kvothe, 22 March 2012 - 12:12.


#939 Lazy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 13:42

^^ I hope that isn't aimed at me Lazy.

Lewis said that after debriefing with his engineers his race pace was practically identical.
trogggy pointed out it wasn't via the lap times.
Without any knowledge of what it is Lewis and his engineers looked at and in an attempt to explain why Lewis would say that I offered the possible explanation of dirty air.

Apart from my reply to the attempts to discredit me, and the usual confusion that stems from not following the argument that's pretty much it.


No, not you really Kvothe, your level of bias is normal for a sane person :)



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#940 as65p

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 14:08

Every race Lewis loses we get this little dance on here where Lewis fans find, and convince themselves of, reasons why it wasn't TDG's fault. Anyone who watched the race however could clearly see that Jenson was quicker and even had pace to spare. Lewis knew it after the race, hence the long face, even if he is trying to find mitigating circumstances now.

Edit: Some Lewis fans I hasten to add :)


Be grateful that there is only a week until the next race. Normally what you describe would snowball on and on, with no race in between I would expect that around mid-next-week Hamilton would be established as in fact the clearly quicker driver in Melbourne, only hampered by <insert-whatever>.

 ;)

#941 GlenP

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 14:14

Be grateful that there is only a week until the next race. Normally what you describe would snowball on and on, with no race in between I would expect that around mid-next-week Hamilton would be established as in fact the clearly quicker driver in Melbourne, only hampered by <insert-whatever>.

;)

Indeed - back to back races doesn't allow time for the normal cycle of confusion, anger, denial, blame and as-if-it-never-happened-confident-prediction.

#942 fieraku

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 14:25

Seriously this dirty air is a weak excuse,Maldo was 20 freakin laps on Alonso's tail and the gap was less than a second.Why he couldn't overtake?Well look at their names.

It was clear he had no answer for JB so he nicely stayed back and collect the points,didn't he even ask ''where's my pace'' or something.
So this identical times is utter bs,I've been repeating for a year now that his RE is incompetent and needs replacing,and looking at this conclusion about the race it only proves it. Identical laps my rear end.

#943 revlec

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 14:46

Indeed - back to back races doesn't allow time for the normal cycle of confusion, anger, denial, blame and as-if-it-never-happened-confident-prediction.

bashing too? :p

#944 GlenP

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 14:54

bashing too? :p

Ho ho.

I never have time for that. If anything, I seem to have done quite a lot of saying that one race a pattern does not make.

#945 Burtros

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 15:02

So this identical times is utter bs,I've been repeating for a year now that his RE is incompetent and needs replacing,and looking at this conclusion about the race it only proves it. Identical laps my rear end.


Lewis race engineer is not incompetent. Not even close. If he was, within an organisation like McLaren he would have been long gone. They are far better placed to judge this than the likes of you.



#946 fieraku

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 15:12

Lewis race engineer is not incompetent. Not even close. If he was, within an organisation like McLaren he would have been long gone. They are far better placed to judge this than the likes of you.

I'll bookmark this and bump it after 10 races,.McLaren have computers do their judging :wave: when it comes to strategy,whether in Quali or in the Race.

#947 Slartibartfast

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 15:29

fieraku says the Race Engineer is incompetent, but

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#948 hammibal

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 15:36

:D

Some of us are still waiting for apologies for mockery/abuse received in 2010 :)

Well i dont know much about that i was just referring too none supporters of either driver

#949 hammibal

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 16:44

Are you serious mate? LH started in F1 with a winning car, JB had to wait five years in F1 until a rain-soaked Hungarian GP in 2006 to win his first GP. JB's saving grace was always that his team mates never won either, didn't believe it then, I do now.

Was Jenson ready for a WDC winning car in his rookie year, but i guess thats another subject

Edited by hammibal, 22 March 2012 - 16:56.


#950 hammibal

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 16:55

Just to be clear - I don't think it's you who's making stuff up. You're just reporting it. ;)
I can't honestly see how anyone can make a claim of equal pace in Aus though. There might well be good reasons for the difference in pace that we're unaware of, but that's not the same thing.

It'll be interesting to see how this thread develops the next time Lewis is a few tenths quicker, anyway.



Every race Lewis loses we get this little dance on here where Lewis fans find, and convince themselves of, reasons why it wasn't TDG's fault. Anyone who watched the race however could clearly see that Jenson was quicker and even had pace to spare. Lewis knew it after the race, hence the long face, even if he is trying to find mitigating circumstances now.

Edit: Some Lewis fans I hasten to add :)

Well the latest is that they ran different setups which was giving Lewis oversteer in the fast corners, Jenson had the better setup, simples