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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#951 Trust

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 16:57

Only one race has gone by, and this thread is on the verge of making it 25 pages? Incredible stuff.

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#952 trogggy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 17:04

Well the latest is that they ran different setups which was giving Lewis oversteer in the fast corners, Jenson had the better setup, simples

That makes perfect sense. What doesn't is that they had the same pace.
Is that fair?

#953 hammibal

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 17:24

That makes perfect sense. What doesn't is that they had the same pace.
Is that fair?

They didnt have the same pace, Jenson was quicker

#954 f1fastestlap

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 17:27

They didnt have the same pace, Jenson was quicker


Jenson was quicker at some point in the race, lewis was quicker at another...

#955 hammibal

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 17:30

Jenson was quicker at some point in the race, lewis was quicker at another...

Jenson was quicker hence Lewis saying he struggled for pace

#956 PNSD

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 17:39

I'll bookmark this and bump it after 10 races,.McLaren have computers do their judging :wave: when it comes to strategy,whether in Quali or in the Race.


Race engineer's do not have time machines, and they can not predict the future.

Lewis's car was setup to such a good degree that he got pole and was nearer two tenths quicker than his team mate than 1 tenth.

How in the hell would his race engineer be able to envisage Lewis being 2-3 tenths per lap slower based on conditions nad temperatures he could not yet predict (ie Sunday!!).

They had limited track time anyway, so no doubt went with a setup that Lewis liked, and was based on track running they did do. Likewise Jenson went with a setup that he liked, based on the running he did previously.

Want to blame the race engineer, then go ahead and show your ignorance, and quite frankly stupidity. But these guy's know how to make these car's work. They had a few months of testing and data gathering, they know what effect front angle changes have on the car's dynamics, and performance.

Lewis said he had no pace.... OK. Relative to what? His team mate, right? Well that does that mean he wasn't happy with the car? No, there was no such suggestion. So IMO Lewis was happy with his car, pre-pole and post pole, it was only on Sunday when he realized his team mate was quicker. Lewis was probably unhappy because his car balance was OK, yet was slower.

I am not blaming Lewis, or anyone. This is racing, this happens. You've watched the sport and other motor racing to know this. Why on earth you are blaming 1 man for this amazes me.

#957 hammibal

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 17:49

Race engineer's do not have time machines, and they can not predict the future.

Lewis's car was setup to such a good degree that he got pole and was nearer two tenths quicker than his team mate than 1 tenth.

How in the hell would his race engineer be able to envisage Lewis being 2-3 tenths per lap slower based on conditions nad temperatures he could not yet predict (ie Sunday!!).

They had limited track time anyway, so no doubt went with a setup that Lewis liked, and was based on track running they did do. Likewise Jenson went with a setup that he liked, based on the running he did previously.

Want to blame the race engineer, then go ahead and show your ignorance, and quite frankly stupidity. But these guy's know how to make these car's work. They had a few months of testing and data gathering, they know what effect front angle changes have on the car's dynamics, and performance.

Lewis said he had no pace.... OK. Relative to what? His team mate, right? Well that does that mean he wasn't happy with the car? No, there was no such suggestion. So IMO Lewis was happy with his car, pre-pole and post pole, it was only on Sunday when he realized his team mate was quicker. Lewis was probably unhappy because his car balance was OK, yet was slower.

I am not blaming Lewis, or anyone. This is racing, this happens. You've watched the sport and other motor racing to know this. Why on earth you are blaming 1 man for this amazes me.

The balance of Lewis's car wasnt ok, he had oversteer in fast corners

#958 PNSD

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 18:01

The balance of Lewis's car wasnt ok, he had oversteer in fast corners


Which would only occur on Sunday?

If he had it Saturday, then he is a fool for continuing with the setup knowing the Pirelli's.

So therefore you can conclude, whatever changed was the conditions from Saturday to Sunday which in turn altered the car's behaviour from Saturday. That's the only reasonable explanation, and certainly more plausible than his race engineer not knowing how to do his job =/. If there's something I love, it certainly is nobody's who believe they know more than the somebody's :D.

#959 gricey1981

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 18:13

Reading his latest article I think its going to be a good thing that Jenson is beating him fair and square in the dry. You cant really argue with those first couple of laps.

We all know that Hamilton seems to push an oversteer setup. This is what he says cost him the times in Aus.

He says the wing changes were HIS choice so no blaming the team then. Im wondering if maybe he will start to change the setup to a more neutral one which should enable him to compete better.

For whatever reason JB has had the upper hand since hungary last year and maybe Hamilton is finally learning from it , very much like in 07 after fred comprehensively beat him in Monza and Spa

Just my ramblings

Edited by gricey1981, 22 March 2012 - 18:14.


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#960 tkulla

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 18:54

This discussion brings up something interesting about Lewis and his feedback on the car. Frankly, I doubt he would have had any complaints about the balance of the car at all in the race had Button not been quicker. It's the price for being able to drive anything quickly - he's not sure if it's just right or not. Button, on the other hand, is super-sensitive and does know when it's just right. The problem for Jenson is that it's not always possible to get it there. But if this McLaren is a dream to driver and, even more importantly, continues to respond strongly and predictably to changes then the balance of power swings to Jenson.

I'm glad to hear Lewis has picked up his mood and seems relaxed. That's good. He needs to look at the bigger picture and stay calm even if Button is quicker again this weekend. I have a feeling he might set up his car more for the race than in Australia, and because of that I think Button will get his first McLaren pole. That will make Sunday very interesting indeed...

Or I might be completely wrong. It's happened before.  ;)

#961 Force Ten

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 19:00

Jenson was quicker at some point in the race, lewis was quicker at another...

Indeed. Lewis was quicker at least in 5 laps of the race! Maybe even 6 or 7.

#962 gricey1981

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 19:03

This discussion brings up something interesting about Lewis and his feedback on the car. Frankly, I doubt he would have had any complaints about the balance of the car at all in the race had Button not been quicker. It's the price for being able to drive anything quickly - he's not sure if it's just right or not. Button, on the other hand, is super-sensitive and does know when it's just right. The problem for Jenson is that it's not always possible to get it there. But if this McLaren is a dream to driver and, even more importantly, continues to respond strongly and predictably to changes then the balance of power swings to Jenson.

I'm glad to hear Lewis has picked up his mood and seems relaxed. That's good. He needs to look at the bigger picture and stay calm even if Button is quicker again this weekend. I have a feeling he might set up his car more for the race than in Australia, and because of that I think Button will get his first McLaren pole. That will make Sunday very interesting indeed...

Or I might be completely wrong. It's happened before. ;)


Their roles may be completely reversed!

Whateve happens it will be pretty sweet if we have these two duking it out for the WDC this year.

#963 icecream_man

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 19:08

This discussion brings up something interesting about Lewis and his feedback on the car. Frankly, I doubt he would have had any complaints about the balance of the car at all in the race had Button not been quicker. It's the price for being able to drive anything quickly - he's not sure if it's just right or not. Button, on the other hand, is super-sensitive and does know when it's just right. The problem for Jenson is that it's not always possible to get it there. But if this McLaren is a dream to driver and, even more importantly, continues to respond strongly and predictably to changes then the balance of power swings to Jenson.


I totally agree with you there, it's ridiculous to keep putting all the blame on Hamilton's engineers, they can only go by what he's telling them, same thing goes for the tyre calls in changing conditions, and when Button's side of the garage keep getting it consistently right, and Hamilton's side don't, you've got to wonder if his feedback is playing a part in it

Edited by icecream_man, 22 March 2012 - 19:08.


#964 fieraku

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 19:09

Race engineer's do not have time machines, and they can not predict the future.

Lewis's car was setup to such a good degree that he got pole and was nearer two tenths quicker than his team mate than 1 tenth.

How in the hell would his race engineer be able to envisage Lewis being 2-3 tenths per lap slower based on conditions nad temperatures he could not yet predict (ie Sunday!!).

They had limited track time anyway, so no doubt went with a setup that Lewis liked, and was based on track running they did do. Likewise Jenson went with a setup that he liked, based on the running he did previously.

Want to blame the race engineer, then go ahead and show your ignorance, and quite frankly stupidity.
But these guy's know how to make these car's work. They had a few months of testing and data gathering, they know what effect front angle changes have on the car's dynamics, and performance.

Lewis said he had no pace.... OK. Relative to what? His team mate, right? Well that does that mean he wasn't happy with the car? No, there was no such suggestion. So IMO Lewis was happy with his car, pre-pole and post pole, it was only on Sunday when he realized his team mate was quicker. Lewis was probably unhappy because his car balance was OK, yet was slower.

I am not blaming Lewis, or anyone. This is racing, this happens. You've watched the sport and other motor racing to know this. Why on earth you are blaming 1 man for this amazes me.

You're the stupid one here mate.Reading comprehension deficiency it seems.
If AL has gone over the time sheet and somehow convinced Lewis that he had JB's pace, then he is incompetent because it's utter nonsense.Lewis didn't.
So than these guys shouldn't make any mistakes right?At all! :drunk: Yet they do every race across the grid(look Mercedes) and I'm ignorant?
Bro get off your pedestal because F1 engineers f*** up as much as anyone else,there's no magic potion.As per rest of your rant,disregarded.

#965 ForzaGTR

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 19:11

I totally agree with you there, it's ridiculous to keep putting all the blame on Hamilton's engineers, they can only go by what he's telling them, same thing goes for the tyre calls in changing conditions, and when Button's side of the garage keep getting it consistently right, and Hamilton's side don't, you've got to wonder if his feedback is playing a part in it


To be fair Lewis has taken some of the blame for the set up error. I suppose one could argue Jenson has more experience in setting up F1 cars. As much as it may dent Lewis' pride, perhaps he should copy some aspects of Jenson's set ups, they share all the info at Mclaren anyway.

#966 fieraku

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 19:16

To be fair Lewis has taken some of the blame for the set up error. I suppose one could argue Jenson has more experience in setting up F1 cars. As much as it may dent Lewis' pride, perhaps he should copy some aspects of Jenson's set ups, they share all the info at Mclaren anyway.


Perhaps he's already doing it and due to opposite driving styles it's working against him.Maybe that's something he shouldn't do?Lewis needs to find his own sweet spot on these Pirellis,just like JB has and even Webber and Koba seemed OK so far.

#967 jrg19

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 19:16

Well Jenson as the second most experienced driver on the grid you would expect great set ups, I'm sure Lewis is learning a lot from him which will help in years ahead.

#968 f1fastestlap

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 19:58

Indeed. Lewis was quicker at least in 5 laps of the race! Maybe even 6 or 7.


Yep, when he had free air, like jenson... :cool:

#969 PNSD

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 19:59

You're the stupid one here mate.Reading comprehension deficiency it seems.
If AL has gone over the time sheet and somehow convinced Lewis that he had JB's pace, then he is incompetent because it's utter nonsense.Lewis didn't.
So than these guys shouldn't make any mistakes right?At all! :drunk: Yet they do every race across the grid(look Mercedes) and I'm ignorant?
Bro get off your pedestal because F1 engineers f*** up as much as anyone else,there's no magic potion.As per rest of your rant,disregarded.


I didn't say the don't f*ck up did I ? But you were outwardly blaming the race engineer for Lewis finishing 3rd? Correct?

Why was it his engineers fault?

You failed to answer the rest of my post, so I'll explain;

It's Saturday, cars have had dry running Friday, and a little on Saturday. Qualifying hits, Lewis happy with the car, and ultimately gets the prize they all want... pole. Lewis happy (thats good!).

Sunday... temperatures are up a significant amount from Saturday, completely dry track, Lewis suffer's oversteer in high speed (ie, 3 corners =/???!). booohoo :(

So firstly, how is that his engineer's fault? They looked at the data from the dry running, set the up car accordingly for the qualifying and race, and off he went. Did they look at the predicted conditions for Sunday? In all chance, yes, but that will only go so far!

Here's the killer question though - did Lewis realize what the issue was as they were racing, and request tyre pressure changes/ front wing changes?

He said it was ONLY the front wing which differed, a change in the pitlane which would barely cost any time. I never saw any adjustment.... did you ;-)??

So please tell me how this was his engineer's fault, and equally Lewis's fault? Lewis sets his car up, he gives feed back to his engineers nad decisions are made following a yes, or no from Lewis.

I love how it has changed somewhat from Lewis TDG development driver with 3 points of downforce to, OMG front wing wrong, sack the incompetent engineer who can not predict degree changes in temperature from one day to the next. what a sh*t weather man!

#970 BillBald

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 20:09

I totally agree with you there, it's ridiculous to keep putting all the blame on Hamilton's engineers, they can only go by what he's telling them, same thing goes for the tyre calls in changing conditions, and when Button's side of the garage keep getting it consistently right, and Hamilton's side don't, you've got to wonder if his feedback is playing a part in it


I think it must sometimes be hard for Lewis' RE to know when he's giving feedback, and when he's just expressing frustration.

There have been a few occasions when Lewis has complained about the tyres going off, just a few laps from the end of a race, when it would obviously not be a good idea to pit. In Melbourne, the RE was quick to say that he shouldn't pit, perhaps remembering that Lewis did come in last year in Malaysia with just a handful of laps to go.



#971 BillBald

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 20:12

You're the stupid one here mate.Reading comprehension deficiency it seems.
If AL has gone over the time sheet and somehow convinced Lewis that he had JB's pace, then he is incompetent because it's utter nonsense.Lewis didn't.
So than these guys shouldn't make any mistakes right?At all! :drunk: Yet they do every race across the grid(look Mercedes) and I'm ignorant?
Bro get off your pedestal because F1 engineers f*** up as much as anyone else,there's no magic potion.As per rest of your rant,disregarded.


I think the RE has a dual role really. Part of his function is to maintain his driver's morale, so sometimes it might not seem like a good idea to be brutally honest. I very much doubt that AL really believed they had the same pace.





#972 Clatter

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 20:13

I think it must sometimes be hard for Lewis' RE to know when he's giving feedback, and when he's just expressing frustration.

There have been a few occasions when Lewis has complained about the tyres going off, just a few laps from the end of a race, when it would obviously not be a good idea to pit. In Melbourne, the RE was quick to say that he shouldn't pit, perhaps remembering that Lewis did come in last year in Malaysia with just a handful of laps to go.


I doubt that very much. Your drawing that conclusion from the very limited amount of radio transmissions that we get to hear, forgetting that there is a lot more chatter that we don't get to hear.


#973 Force Ten

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 22:34

Predicted by:

Be grateful that there is only a week until the next race. Normally what you describe would snowball on and on, with no race in between I would expect that around mid-next-week Hamilton would be established as in fact the clearly quicker driver in Melbourne, only hampered by <insert-whatever>.

Followed by:

Indeed. Lewis was quicker at least in 5 laps of the race! Maybe even 6 or 7.

Followed by:

Yep, when he had free air, like jenson... :cool:


And we have a winner!

#974 robefc

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 22:46

I didn't say the don't f*ck up did I ? But you were outwardly blaming the race engineer for Lewis finishing 3rd? Correct?

Why was it his engineers fault?

You failed to answer the rest of my post, so I'll explain;

It's Saturday, cars have had dry running Friday, and a little on Saturday. Qualifying hits, Lewis happy with the car, and ultimately gets the prize they all want... pole. Lewis happy (thats good!).

Sunday... temperatures are up a significant amount from Saturday, completely dry track, Lewis suffer's oversteer in high speed (ie, 3 corners =/???!). booohoo :(

So firstly, how is that his engineer's fault? They looked at the data from the dry running, set the up car accordingly for the qualifying and race, and off he went. Did they look at the predicted conditions for Sunday? In all chance, yes, but that will only go so far!

Here's the killer question though - did Lewis realize what the issue was as they were racing, and request tyre pressure changes/ front wing changes?

He said it was ONLY the front wing which differed, a change in the pitlane which would barely cost any time. I never saw any adjustment.... did you ;-)??


So please tell me how this was his engineer's fault, and equally Lewis's fault? Lewis sets his car up, he gives feed back to his engineers nad decisions are made following a yes, or no from Lewis.

I love how it has changed somewhat from Lewis TDG development driver with 3 points of downforce to, OMG front wing wrong, sack the incompetent engineer who can not predict degree changes in temperature from one day to the next. what a sh*t weather man!


Actually yes I did when watching BBC highlights last night, can't remember which stop.

Which is not to say i'm disagreeing with the rest of your post.

It's very difficult to really understand what's going on between Lewis and his engineer but it seems reasonable to say the combination does not seem to gel well, too many set up and strategy issues and I don't get any positive vibes from their communications.


#975 PNSD

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 23:22

Where's the issue?

They have Jenson's data, his set up information, everything Jenson has available Lewis also has. Likewise, Jenson has Lewis's data at hand.

Any difference on setup is based purely on driver preference, and discussions between the driver, and his engineer.

If Button's set up was to account for an increase in track temp, more rubber gone down, and generally for a trackc they expect to see come race day, then Lewis's side would have known this.

The fact is, Lewis's RE did not say, "this will work go drive it!"

It would have been more of a, "Lewis, we've done changed this and that, how is it?" Lewis: "yes/no - I want this or that from the car"

Lewis got pole. He was happy with the car. If Jenson got pole and came second, people would still want to blame the race engineer for something. You can't have it all, and I am still amazed someone would blame the race engineer. Especially after said person quoted Mercedes getting it wrong.... ermm people aren't perfect? The fact that another team got set up wrong suggests it's very possible but to blame Lewis's RE for getting a setup wrong when he got pole, and was on for 2nd ??!! madness....

#976 PNSD

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 23:25

ANYWAY.

On to this weekend, I wouldn't be surprised to see Lewis get pole, and win to shut those up who said he was finished.. It will be a close weekend, alot will depend on how they qualify, which will depend on how the others fare. If we get a front row lock out then it should be a race long ding-dong. If one of them qualifies 3rd+ then the other if on pole will romp off IMO.

#977 fieraku

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 23:37

I didn't say the don't f*ck up did I ? But you were outwardly blaming the race engineer for Lewis finishing 3rd? Correct?

Why was it his engineers fault?

You failed to answer the rest of my post, so I'll explain;

It's Saturday, cars have had dry running Friday, and a little on Saturday. Qualifying hits, Lewis happy with the car, and ultimately gets the prize they all want... pole. Lewis happy (thats good!).

Sunday... temperatures are up a significant amount from Saturday, completely dry track, Lewis suffer's oversteer in high speed (ie, 3 corners =/???!). booohoo :(

So firstly, how is that his engineer's fault? They looked at the data from the dry running, set the up car accordingly for the qualifying and race, and off he went. Did they look at the predicted conditions for Sunday? In all chance, yes, but that will only go so far!

Here's the killer question though - did Lewis realize what the issue was as they were racing, and request tyre pressure changes/ front wing changes?

He said it was ONLY the front wing which differed, a change in the pitlane which would barely cost any time. I never saw any adjustment.... did you ;-)??

So please tell me how this was his engineer's fault, and equally Lewis's fault? Lewis sets his car up, he gives feed back to his engineers nad decisions are made following a yes, or no from Lewis.

I love how it has changed somewhat from Lewis TDG development driver with 3 points of downforce to, OMG front wing wrong, sack the incompetent engineer who can not predict degree changes in temperature from one day to the next. what a sh*t weather man!

Incorrect,I already explained it to you.One more time...

After the race Lewis had no clue about his slow pace.
Now after reviewing his times he says his pace was almost identical to JB
But it was not
Something his RE should spot in 5 seconds and presumably let him know about it? :drunk:

OT
JB's side of things have been on top of things and have outperformed LH's side by far, it's not even close or fair, so with that notion Lewis' RE and his side are incompetent and have been for quite a while they've ran into these problems too often for a Top outfit,I can only compare their performances to the other side of the garage JB's,not to HRT or Lotus e.g.

The two sides are like night and day and I'm sure drivers make a difference but we can't replace Lewis and keep AL can we?Lewis will keep running into these glitches time and again because it's obvious they have no grasp how to deal with these tires.I'd understand if it was a case like Merc's where both cars had tire issues,but it wasn't so there's only one logical conclusion.

#978 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:57

I think it must sometimes be hard for Lewis' RE to know when he's giving feedback, and when he's just expressing frustration.

There have been a few occasions when Lewis has complained about the tyres going off, just a few laps from the end of a race, when it would obviously not be a good idea to pit. In Melbourne, the RE was quick to say that he shouldn't pit, perhaps remembering that Lewis did come in last year in Malaysia with just a handful of laps to go.


Pitting one or two laps before JB at the first pit stop does not automatically equal an extra pit stop, instead it gives LH a chance to compete for the win. The way it was done clearly showed they did not want LH to compete for the win but to settle for a Mclaren 1-2. If the positions had been reversed you can bet your last tenner that JB would have altered strategy to try and get the win. Either Lewis is pretending to be ignorant or he is ignorant of the team tactics. Against Alonso, straight off he protested about being no. 2, I now believe that was his dad pulling strings behind the scenes and Lewis responding. This effectively was why I think Mclaren instructed Lewis to get rid of his dad.


#979 Hulkster

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:01

Button is leading by 25 points to 15.

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#980 Lazy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:36

Button is leading by 25 points to 15.


Very observant.

#981 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:45

Button is leading by 25 points to 15.

Button has got more points while both have driven for Mclaren, so it is a lot worse than one 2012 result.

LH was a certainty to be among the greats, now that is getting destroyed right before our eyes unless something changes drastically. In F1 you adapt or you die!

#982 zack1994

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:48

Very observant.

:lol:

#983 Peter Perfect

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:50

Not great start to the weekend for Button with technical problems in both practice sessions, but both McLarens seem to be going well so looking good for the race :-D

#984 PARAZAR

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:11

Not great start to the weekend for Button with technical problems in both practice sessions, but both McLarens seem to be going well so looking good for the race :-D


Both practise sessions? I know Jenson got an oil leak in FP1. What happened in FP2?

#985 velgajski1

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:33

Some of the posts are just ridiculous.

1. As Lewis said himself, he did not have pace. This is primarly his own fault. Remember the times when Lewis was TDG and was supposed to be 'naturally' faster than everyone else? You cannot say that he is 'naturally faster when he wins and blame everyone else when he doesn't.

2. Button is destroying Hamilton? Seriously? Because if you sum up their time in McLaren so far, he has something like 2-3% points more, and in seasons its 1-1? This is destroying?

#986 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:40

Pitting one or two laps before JB at the first pit stop does not automatically equal an extra pit stop, instead it gives LH a chance to compete for the win. The way it was done clearly showed they did not want LH to compete for the win but to settle for a Mclaren 1-2. If the positions had been reversed you can bet your last tenner that JB would have altered strategy to try and get the win. Either Lewis is pretending to be ignorant or he is ignorant of the team tactics. Against Alonso, straight off he protested about being no. 2, I now believe that was his dad pulling strings behind the scenes and Lewis responding. This effectively was why I think Mclaren instructed Lewis to get rid of his dad.


Ever occur to you that the team might have a say in this? And that the agreement that lead driver gets the call may have had lewis and jenson's support?

#987 Peter Perfect

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:43

Both practise sessions? I know Jenson got an oil leak in FP1. What happened in FP2?


"Button was in there too with the sister McLaren, just two thousandths slower than Schumacher, the Briton having lost more time in P2 to a minor brake issue - he spent a period in the pits during P1 because of an oil leak."



#988 Peter Perfect

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:46

Just reading Hamiltons thoughts after practice - http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98291

It's interesting that he seems to work from a qualifying/low-fuel base set-up to then adapting that to a race set-up while Button works the other way (having already done long run work today).

#989 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:56

Ever occur to you that the team might have a say in this? And that the agreement that lead driver gets the call may have had lewis and jenson's support?


Wrong, JB on more than one occasion in the past has come in to change tyres when he thought it was right and it was clearly against the wishes of the team. All I'm saying is that Lewis should back his judgement sometimes and force the team to react to his needs.

#990 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:56

Just reading Hamiltons thoughts after practice - http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98291

It's interesting that he seems to work from a qualifying/low-fuel base set-up to then adapting that to a race set-up while Button works the other way (having already done long run work today).


Don't they usually run similar programmes, albeit using different tyres so team has more info?

#991 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:57

Wrong, JB on more than one occasion in the past has come in to change tyres when he thought it was right and it was clearly against the wishes of the team. All I'm saying is that Lewis should back his judgement sometimes and force the team to react to his needs.


Really? examples please, thanks in advance

Edited by robefc, 23 March 2012 - 11:00.


#992 fieraku

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:59

Just reading Hamiltons thoughts after practice - http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98291

It's interesting that he seems to work from a qualifying/low-fuel base set-up to then adapting that to a race set-up while Button works the other way (having already done long run work today).


It's probably Mac program to have all bases covered in case of rain or a crash/failure.

''With tyre degradation a major concern due to the humid conditions in Malaysia - and in light of his difficulties matching Jenson Button's pace in Australia – Hamilton said his focus would now shift to long run simulations.''
"Now we're just focussing on long run pace. I didn't get too many laps but it definitely feels good at the moment.


Now? :rolleyes:
And some here said his RE/side aren't incompetent,pffft.Some of us have been screaming this for the past 10 races,that should've been his only focus long time ago.
Unbelievable :confused:

#993 Force Ten

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:11

And some here said his RE/side aren't incompetent,pffft.Some of us have been screaming this for the past 10 races,that should've been his only focus long time ago.
Unbelievable :confused:

Well why do you think it is his RE and not himself? Or do you suppose his RE should pretty much sit on him and MAKE him work the way LH doesn't want? People usually are not at their best when they are forced to do something against their will.

Perhaps it's a journey that Lewis is on and he has to discover these things himself?

#994 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:25

Really? examples please, thanks in advance


Anyone who has followed Mclaren in the last couple years knows that on a number of occasions JB has defied the team by either coming or staying out when the team have suggested otherwise. This is common knowledge and I got most of mine from watching the drivers being interviewed after every single race on BBC F1 forum in the last two years. Pity that you don't know and I won't troll the internet on your behalf, sorry!

#995 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:29

Anyone who has followed Mclaren in the last couple years knows that on a number of occasions JB has defied the team by either coming or staying out when the team have suggested otherwise. This is common knowledge and I got most of mine from watching the drivers being interviewed after every single race on BBC F1 forum in the last two years. Pity that you don't know and I won't troll the internet on your behalf, sorry!


Well the bolded part is factually incorrect because I've followed mclaren (as a lewis fan rather than a macca fan) for the last 5 years and aren't aware of it.

Happy for others to chime in with their opinions of whether what ayanate is saying is the case or not?
Off the top of my head macca brought in jb before lewis in turkey 2010 I think it was in the first stint? And china has already been dicussed but was the stop onto hard tyres thus going earlier was a disadvantage.

I don't remember any talk from macca about jb coming in against the wishes of the team at anytime...

Edited by robefc, 23 March 2012 - 11:29.


#996 corf

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:33

It is not factually incorrect - there was at least one instance of him staying out - there was uproar because it forced Lewis to stay out too. Additionally there were other instances of him calling a pit stop early particularly on drying conditions. JB is usually pretty open in telling the public about these instances - iirc several were mentioned by himself of the BBC forum (the aftershow on the red button)

You could argue whether its "against the wishes" but he was basically telling the team I'm coming in now - get the tires ready

Edited by corf, 23 March 2012 - 11:36.


#997 trogggy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:34

Anyone who has followed Mclaren in the last couple years knows that on a number of occasions JB has defied the team by either coming or staying out when the team have suggested otherwise. This is common knowledge and I got most of mine from watching the drivers being interviewed after every single race on BBC F1 forum in the last two years. Pity that you don't know and I won't troll the internet on your behalf, sorry!

I'm guessing Rob knows very well.
Has Button ever pitted first when directly behind Hamilton, and used that to pass him on the undercut?
Not when they're miles apart on the track, not when it's a decision as to when to switch tyres in changeable conditionsin changeable conditions, but a situation like last weekend.
The nearest I can think of is Australia '10 (in that he was directly behind when he pitted) but that was a completely different situation.


#998 fieraku

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:41

Well why do you think it is his RE and not himself? Or do you suppose his RE should pretty much sit on him and MAKE him work the way LH doesn't want? People usually are not at their best when they are forced to do something against their will.

Perhaps it's a journey that Lewis is on and he has to discover these things himself?


Yes,that's exactly what he needs and he had when his father was there.Lewis is cocky as well as naive and probably proud of his one lap speed/taking Pole...and AL is not the man for the job,sometimes it takes pulling an ear when working with superstars to make them listen and you can pull that ear when you've earned their respect and have a sound relationship.
I don't see that.

#999 Alarcon

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:44

Yes,that's exactly what he needs and he had when his father was there.Lewis is cocky as well as naive and probably proud of his one lap speed/taking Pole...and AL is not the man for the job,sometimes it takes pulling an ear when working with superstars to make them listen and you can pull that ear when you've earned their respect and have a sound relationship.
I don't see that.



You really believe he´s proud to beat over 1 lap a guy who during his career has been nothing special over 1 lap?

Don´t think so. Imo he´s thinking the way to beat him on the race because actually, since Jenson drive for Macca, Button beat him. He knows he´s able and we know too, however it´s harder when this guy is in the same league as you (top drivers).

Edited by Alarcon, 23 March 2012 - 11:49.


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#1000 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:45

I'm guessing Rob knows very well.
Has Button ever pitted first when directly behind Hamilton, and used that to pass him on the undercut?
Not when they're miles apart on the track, not when it's a decision as to when to switch tyres in changeable conditionsin changeable conditions, but a situation like last weekend.
The nearest I can think of is Australia '10 (in that he was directly behind when he pitted) but that was a completely different situation.


I remember one BBC F1 forum where Jenson said the team told him to come in and queue behind Lewis and he said no. Unfortunately I don't remember the exact race, it might have been Budapest '11 but not sure.