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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1001 fieraku

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:45

It is not factually incorrect - there was at least one instance of him staying out - there was uproar because it forced Lewis to stay out too. Additionally there were other instances of him calling a pit stop early particularly on drying conditions. JB is usually pretty open in telling the public about these instances - iirc several were mentioned by himself of the BBC forum (the aftershow on the red button)

You could argue whether its "against the wishes" but he was basically telling the team I'm coming in now - get the tires ready

China he missed his pit window,JB messes up too mate like pitting at RB's lane. And you can't blame him for his intuition/feel of track conditions.

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#1002 Force Ten

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:46

What Button has often done is staying out for a couple of laps longer than all the other leading drivers and going really fast on these laps and so trying to improve his position for the next stint. Sometimes it has worked, often not aswell. He tends to lose less than other drivers pitting later though.

#1003 Slartibartfast

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:55

Anyone who has followed Mclaren in the last couple years knows that on a number of occasions JB has defied the team by either coming or staying out when the team have suggested otherwise. This is common knowledge and I got most of mine from watching the drivers being interviewed after every single race on BBC F1 forum in the last two years. Pity that you don't know and I won't troll the internet on your behalf, sorry!

If the theory is correct, then is it not reasonable to suggest that Button's Race Engineering team are actually no better or worse than Hamilton's? Therefore the two support teams cancel each other out in the Hamilton vs Button debate.
Incidentally, no one is asking you to troll the internet.

#1004 trogggy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:06

I remember one BBC F1 forum where Jenson said the team told him to come in and queue behind Lewis and he said no. Unfortunately I don't remember the exact race, it might have been Budapest '11 but not sure.

Hungary '11, to switch to intermediates? If so not relevant.
You've made a pretty big claim, the least you should do is back it up or withdraw it.

#1005 trogggy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:10

We want a good race car, but the aim for tomorrow is pole – you make your life a lot easier if you start from pole position, so we're putting a lot of work into single-lap performance.

Hmmm.
Double-bluff or incompetent RE, I just can't make my mind up. :D

#1006 GlenP

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:10

Calling your own tyres in wet and changing conditions is very much the norm (backed up with team information, esp from watching other cars on changed tyres) - but it is totally different to shifting a carefully planned dry tyres strategy on the fly.

What Hamilton should be asking on the radio (or even, should know in advance) is; what are my options here? What are the ramifications if we pit early or change to the other tyre? Not - I don't like these tyres any more, let's switch and worry about the consequences later.

#1007 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:18

It is not factually incorrect - there was at least one instance of him staying out - there was uproar because it forced Lewis to stay out too. Additionally there were other instances of him calling a pit stop early particularly on drying conditions. JB is usually pretty open in telling the public about these instances - iirc several were mentioned by himself of the BBC forum (the aftershow on the red button)

You could argue whether its "against the wishes" but he was basically telling the team I'm coming in now - get the tires ready


He said anyone following mclaren would know - I don't know - that's the part I'm saying is factually incorrect.

The example you state is button staying out another lap, that does not contradict macca's policy of the lead driver getting the call, it simply meant lewis had to also do another lap.

And there wasn't uproar because lewis won the race.

I remember one BBC F1 forum where Jenson said the team told him to come in and queue behind Lewis and he said no. Unfortunately I don't remember the exact race, it might have been Budapest '11 but not sure.


That would be the equivalent of lewis staying out another lap for the second stop in Oz, again it doesn't contradict the lead driver getting the call strategy.

Pity Lewis didn't this time actually as he'd have probably won the race albeit very fortuitously.

We seem to be short on examples here...

#1008 corf

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:20

The original question was whether JB had defied team orders by staying out or coming it. You have changed the question by requiring specific circumstances. Now defying team orders are very strong words - but he has definitely done things differently to the teams original intention.

Edited by corf, 23 March 2012 - 12:22.


#1009 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:23

The original question was whether JB had defied team orders by staying out or coming it. You have changed the question by requiring specific circumstances.


Actually my original question was in respect of the apparent agreement for lead driver to get the call and second driver not to pit before them.

Not my fault that the rebuttal to that failed to hit the mark.

And in anycase the only example so far appears to be jenson managing to go one lap longer in china because his tyres were in ok nick, he's lead driver, it's his call, I'm sure the team weren't unhappy.

Edited by robefc, 23 March 2012 - 12:24.


#1010 corf

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:26

To be fair you invited others to chime their opinions of whether what ayanate is saying is the case or not? Which is what I have been doing.

JB does make his own calls - we know that, and you are right I cant recall an instance where he has gone for the undercut when close behind LH.

Edited by corf, 23 March 2012 - 12:28.


#1011 fieraku

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:29

Hmmm.
Double-bluff or incompetent RE, I just can't make my mind up. :D

How many sets you reckon are required and probably destroyed in order to get pole?I gotta give it to JB, :up: ,he knows his advantage and know is mindf****** everyone in hopes they listen.
He started 4th last year and finished 2nd in a worst car and tires that degraded less,bravo Jenson I like it,200+ GPs do come in handy.Signs of a 2nd WDC in the making.


#1012 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:37

To be fair you invited others to chime their opinions of whether what ayanate is saying is the case or not? Which is what I have been doing.

JB does make his own calls - we know that, and you are right I cant recall an instance where he has gone for the undercut when close behind LH.


Hey, wasn't having a go at you mate and you're right, the conversation was widened.

However, JB making his own calls is not the same as going against the team, which is what ayanate implied, remember MW gushing over jenson in oz 2010? He also said that you could bet your bottom dollar that JB would have altered strategy in Lewis's place, I see no evidence of that.

It's clear there is a team agreement, presumably backed or at least accepted by the drivers, that the lead driver in the first stint gets the call and the second driver doesn't pit before,.

Some are saying lewis should show some balls and come in regardless of what the team wants like jenson does.

a) I don't think jenson does do that
b) I think Lewis would be frankly out of order doing that

#1013 corf

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:46

It's clear there is a team agreement, presumably backed or at least accepted by the drivers, that the lead driver in the first stint gets the call and the second driver doesn't pit before,.


I agree with everything your saying but i'm going to go against the grain with the above - I don't think this is true. I think its more likely that the lead driver gets choice of lap. We'll see how the season pans out of this front as I expect the cars to be pretty close together all season and at some point the car behind will pit first.

Edited by corf, 23 March 2012 - 12:47.


#1014 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:51

I agree with everything your saying but i'm going to go against the grain with the above - I don't think this is true. I think its more likely that the lead driver gets choice of lap. We'll see how the season pans out of this front as I expect the cars to be pretty close together all season and at some point the car behind will pit first.


Can I ask why?

Surely it would have made sense for Lewis to try the undercut in australia to get track position, particularly as his tyres were going off relative to vettel anyway?

And in the example of china he could have come in when button didn't last year?

My presumption, which may be wrong, is that the agreement is in place so that the lead driver does not feel they have to pit earlier to ward off the undercut.

#1015 fieraku

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:59

How the powers that be have shifted.When was the last time JB was the favorite,and with LH as a teammate?

This event takes place from the Sepang International Circuit and according to oddsmakers, Sebastian Vettel is not the favorite to win this week. While Vettel does have 13/5 odds to win, Jenson Button is the favorite to win with 9/4 odds while Lewis Hamilton has 5/2 odds to win.


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#1016 PNSD

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:05

Predictable - Lewis has 3-4 tenths on Button on low fuel but Button more than a match for long run pace.

Button can not lose out tomorrow. Lewis will more than likely bag pole, and Button can not start lower than 3rd otherwise his race is completely messed, in terms of fighting for the win.

#1017 GlenP

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:05

Can I ask why?

Surely it would have made sense for Lewis to try the undercut in australia to get track position, particularly as his tyres were going off relative to vettel anyway?

And in the example of china he could have come in when button didn't last year?

My presumption, which may be wrong, is that the agreement is in place so that the lead driver does not feel they have to pit earlier to ward off the undercut.

All kinds of things can happen, and will have been discussed in the team. For example; what happens in Melbourne when Lewis pits before Jenson and gets the undercut on him with the new tyres - then he is in P1, with the faster team-mate stuck behind him. So what happens then?

#1018 sofarapartguy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:12

Predictable - Lewis has 3-4 tenths on Button on low fuel but Button more than a match for long run pace.

Button can not lose out tomorrow. Lewis will more than likely bag pole, and Button can not start lower than 3rd otherwise his race is completely messed, in terms of fighting for the win.


Agree :up: Except I'd predict a little lesser gap - about regular 1,5-2 tenth.

Sepang is a turning point and especially important race for both.

#1019 WitnessX

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:13

The original question was whether JB had defied team orders by staying out or coming it. You have changed the question by requiring specific circumstances. Now defying team orders are very strong words - but he has definitely done things differently to the teams original intention.

Its not a "team order" its a message from his racing engineer. The original post mentions "defying a suggestion". You cannot "defy" a suggestion.

The racing engineer and his "side of the garage" work with their driver to get the best possible result for that driver, that includes beating the other side of the garage. I suspect that they both have agreements with each other because they have to share a resource (the pit). There will of course be some residual problems which have to be decided by a neutral team authority (I assume initialy Phil Prew who bridges the two parts of the garage).

Off hand, and without having to troll trawl the internet or thinking to hard(!) the following instances come to mind:
2010 - China : Lewis decides at the last moment (cutting over the grass) to switch to rain tyres.
2011 - Malaysia : Comes in for new tyres despite being asked to stay out.

At Hungary 2011 (the race questioned):
http://www.yallaf1.c...-in-for-inters/

Lewis states:
“We were having radio issues and I could hear my engineers but they couldn’t hear me,” the 2008 champion, told reporters.
“I heard them say it was going to rain and it was already spitting so we opted to go for the wet tyres. It wasn’t necessarily the best call but that’s motor racing.”

Both drivers are allowed to influence the proceedings, however they do not have the whole picture like the engineers do.

p.s.
The "undercut" problem is an issue which must affect every team.. and is probably better in a dedicated thread. However the problem has been there for 2 years already and has received little or no attention. The problem did also exist in another form under refuelling regulations - the situation occured when both cars (same team) having the same amount of fuel in the race, and the driver at the back (according to an agreement) having stop one lap earlier than the other.

Edited by WitnessX, 23 March 2012 - 13:28.


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#1020 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:13

All kinds of things can happen, and will have been discussed in the team. For example; what happens in Melbourne when Lewis pits before Jenson and gets the undercut on him with the new tyres - then he is in P1, with the faster team-mate stuck behind him. So what happens then?


I'm not sure what you mean, my contention is that the agreement would prevent that from happening?

In anycase I'm not sure if macca would have assumed JB was the faster driver pre-race! ;)

#1021 GlenP

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:19

I'm not sure what you mean, my contention is that the agreement would prevent that from happening?

In anycase I'm not sure if macca would have assumed JB was the faster driver pre-race! ;)

I mean the same as you - some sort of agreement is needed, and they need to stick to it. Changing weather conditions is different, but a dry race needs a well made plan and a very good reason to break the plan. By far the best people to call any strategy switch are the team, and he driver's job is to drive the way the team ask him to drive, basically.

I wasn't referring to pre-race thoughts - once underway it was clear that Jenson's car was faster, so all the more reason not the give Lewis the undercut and risk him being ahead. Possibly a differnt view would be taken if Jenson had ended up leading more by luck (even more so if Lewis was stuck behind, rather than slower).

#1022 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:28

If the theory is correct, then is it not reasonable to suggest that Button's Race Engineering team are actually no better or worse than Hamilton's? Therefore the two support teams cancel each other out in the Hamilton vs Button debate.
Incidentally, no one is asking you to troll the internet.


Troll in this instance means to fish dude.

#1023 GlenP

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:30

Troll in this instance means to fish dude.

Trawl for fish.

Or you have Deep Sea Trollers.

#1024 Slartibartfast

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:32

Troll in this instance means to fish dude.

Troll:
Posted Image

Trawl:
Posted Image

Edit:
Deep Sea Troll? (Courtesy GlenP)
Posted Image

Edited by Slartibartfast, 23 March 2012 - 13:35.


#1025 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:49

Its not a "team order" its a message from his racing engineer. The original post mentions "defying a suggestion". You cannot "defy" a suggestion.

The racing engineer and his "side of the garage" work with their driver to get the best possible result for that driver, that includes beating the other side of the garage. I suspect that they both have agreements with each other because they have to share a resource (the pit). There will of course be some residual problems which have to be decided by a neutral team authority (I assume initialy Phil Prew who bridges the two parts of the garage).

Off hand, and without having to troll trawl the internet or thinking to hard(!) the following instances come to mind:
2010 - China : Lewis decides at the last moment (cutting over the grass) to switch to rain tyres.
2011 - Malaysia : Comes in for new tyres despite being asked to stay out.

At Hungary 2011 (the race questioned):
http://www.yallaf1.c...-in-for-inters/

Lewis states:
“We were having radio issues and I could hear my engineers but they couldn’t hear me,” the 2008 champion, told reporters.
“I heard them say it was going to rain and it was already spitting so we opted to go for the wet tyres. It wasn’t necessarily the best call but that’s motor racing.”

Both drivers are allowed to influence the proceedings, however they do not have the whole picture like the engineers do.

p.s.
The "undercut" problem is an issue which must affect every team.. and is probably better in a dedicated thread. However the problem has been there for 2 years already and has received little or no attention. The problem did also exist in another form under refuelling regulations - the situation occured when both cars (same team) having the same amount of fuel in the race, and the driver at the back (according to an agreement) having stop one lap earlier than the other.


Some people like to get too academic on this board, you inevitably get drawn into defending every letter you write. Two can play..

Off hand, and without having to troll trawl the internet or thinking to too hard(!) the following instances come to mind

#1026 trogggy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:53

Some people like to get too academic on this board, you inevitably get drawn into defending every letter you write. Two can play..

Off hand, and without having to troll trawl the internet or thinking to too hard(!) the following instances come to mind

:confused:

:D

#1027 Slartibartfast

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:54

:confused:

:D

Apparently quotation marks are "too academic"...

#1028 trogggy

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:56

Apparently quotation marks are "too academic"...

I was just looking for the list. :(

JB probably nicked it.

Edited by trogggy, 23 March 2012 - 13:57.


#1029 fieraku

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:57

You have to ''mind read'',clearly out of your league.

#1030 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:57

I mean the same as you - some sort of agreement is needed, and they need to stick to it. Changing weather conditions is different, but a dry race needs a well made plan and a very good reason to break the plan. By far the best people to call any strategy switch are the team, and he driver's job is to drive the way the team ask him to drive, basically.

I wasn't referring to pre-race thoughts - once underway it was clear that Jenson's car was faster, so all the more reason not the give Lewis the undercut and risk him being ahead. Possibly a differnt view would be taken if Jenson had ended up leading more by luck (even more so if Lewis was stuck behind, rather than slower).


Ah with you.

I liked bauss's idea that the lead driver gets the priority but if they didn't want to come in the other driver could, however I still think taht would force the lead driver in.

Very likely to affect lewis more when he's behind JB but due to quali likely usually for lewis to be ahead. When he's ahead I draw comfort from the fact that JB will be disadvantaged!! Mind you remember thinking that in hungary for the first 2 stints...

#1031 corf

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:00

Can I ask why?

Surely it would have made sense for Lewis to try the undercut in australia to get track position, particularly as his tyres were going off relative to vettel anyway?

And in the example of china he could have come in when button didn't last year?

My presumption, which may be wrong, is that the agreement is in place so that the lead driver does not feel they have to pit earlier to ward off the undercut.


I am not sure about that agreement because essentially whenever the driver who is softer on the tyres is leading - he could deliberately shaft the other driver by hanging him out to dry on tyres that are finished. It is more likely that the leader has a window that the driver behind can not use e.g the target lap and the two laps preceding it. Which in last weekends case might have caused Lewis to require a 3rd pit stop so the better option was to pit after Jenson.

#1032 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:01

Troll:


Oh why do I have to do this? I meant this one;

http://en.wikipedia....lling_(fishing)

Go argue with Wikipedia not me.


#1033 GlenP

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:02

It will be interesting when the roles are the other way round, sure. I think in that case Jenson will be relying on playing the long game and seeing how the race develops. If Lewis' tyres end up being poor in the final stint (due to a couple of early stops previous to that) then Jenson will be hoping they go completely off the cliff and he can get him on poor traction/using the drs.

#1034 Slartibartfast

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:03

You have to ''mind read'',clearly out of your league.

Or get a Babel fish!

#1035 GlenP

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:04

Oh why do I have to do this? I meant this one;

http://en.wikipedia....lling_(fishing)

Go argue with Wikipedia not me.

Fair enough. I must say, you put that Wikipedia page together very quickly - well done.

#1036 WitnessX

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:04

Some people like to get too academic on this board, you inevitably get drawn into defending every letter you write. Two can play..

Off hand, and without having to troll trawl the internet or thinking to too hard(!) the following instances come to mind


So setting spelin misstakes aside do you agree with the post?

Are you going to ever provide examples to back up your post?

#1037 Slartibartfast

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:07

Oh why do I have to do this? I meant this one;

http://en.wikipedia....lling_(fishing)

Go argue with Wikipedia not me.

That's fishing with a baited lure, not doing a data search.

Troll

Trawl

Or do you want to argue with Chambers?

#1038 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:09

I am not sure about that agreement because essentially whenever the driver who is softer on the tyres is leading - he could deliberately shaft the other driver by hanging him out to dry on tyres that are finished. It is more likely that the leader has a window that the driver behind can not use e.g the target lap and the two laps preceding it. Which in last weekends case might have caused Lewis to require a 3rd pit stop so the better option was to pit after Jenson.


First part makes sense, second part is a bit too unfair to the driver behind to be believable. If Lewis is in the same position in Malaysia that he was in Australia, he must pit first this time or it will be more pain for him.

#1039 ayanate

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:11

That's fishing with a baited lure, not doing a data search.

Troll

Trawl

Or do you want to argue with Chambers?


So when I say I'm mining data, I must be doing what miners do in a coal pit. Give up already mate!!!

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#1040 Slartibartfast

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:13

So when I say I'm mining data, I must be doing what miners do in a coal pit. Give up already mate!!!

Before you accuse me of being a trawl?

#1041 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:14

I am not sure about that agreement because essentially whenever the driver who is softer on the tyres is leading - he could deliberately shaft the other driver by hanging him out to dry on tyres that are finished. It is more likely that the leader has a window that the driver behind can not use e.g the target lap and the two laps preceding it. Which in last weekends case might have caused Lewis to require a 3rd pit stop so the better option was to pit after Jenson.


Possibly but then again if there's an optimal time to stop what you suggest is tantamount to 'my' rule as you'd never want to stop 3 laps earlier unless on a different strategy (in which case presumably either agreement wouldn't apply).

And, this might be slightly biased, but I would absolutely expect button to stop maybe a lap or two later than ideal where lewis is behind and 3rd place is a long way off.

#1042 corf

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:25

Possibly but then again if there's an optimal time to stop what you suggest is tantamount to 'my' rule as you'd never want to stop 3 laps earlier unless on a different strategy (in which case presumably either agreement wouldn't apply).

And, this might be slightly biased, but I would absolutely expect button to stop maybe a lap or two later than ideal where lewis is behind and 3rd place is a long way off.


And in that scenario I would expect Lewis to pit first. I still think we will see the undercut attempted by one of the two over the next handful of races maybe even this weekend if they are on 3 stoppers and they don't believe the tyres will be marginal come the end of the race. I really don't believe an agreement exists as has already been said it punishes the second car too much.

#1043 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:31

And in that scenario I would expect Lewis to pit first. I still think we will see the undercut attempted by one of the two over the next handful of races maybe even this weekend if they are on 3 stoppers and they don't believe the tyres will be marginal come the end of the race. I really don't believe an agreement exists as has already been said it punishes the second car too much.


Fair enough, I can't think of any examples where they've tried it in the last 2 years though.

#1044 Rinehart

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:40

Yea. Hamilton - if he wasn't losing, he'd be winning.

A lot of people still can't grasp how he can be faster in quali but not the race. Did none of you ever watch F1 before? Maybe Prost should not have his WDCs - I mean, it's just downright sneaky focusing on the race - not fair, especially since that's what you get all the points for.


:up:

Exactly and particularly since its come out this week that Hamilton compromised his race set up for qually pace which turned out to be worth 0.1 of a second in qualifying and negated after 100 yards of the race...

Judging by practice, I think the brutal conditions in Malaysia will exaggerate things in favour of Lewis in qualifying then exaggerate them in favour of Jenson in the race...

Edited by Rinehart, 23 March 2012 - 14:54.


#1045 Rinehart

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:42

This is true. Button, Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso. All with their various strengths and weaknesses - and on any given day each of them are pretty much unbeatable.

It's gonna be an interesting season - that's for sure.


I wrote exactly this in 2010 and was shot down in flames.

2 years later you write the exact same thing and its treated as the definition of obvious...

The tide has turned. Yippie!

:cool:

#1046 Rinehart

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:44

My respect for JB has gone up-up-up these past years



"Months" glory boy.  ;)

#1047 GlenP

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:47

Yep. All those times I put that Hamilton needs to mature a bit to become the complete package - treated as "hating" at the time, now just the accepted view of 2011; his growing-up year.

Or when I put that I considered them very close, but with different strengths - again, treated with outrage by the TDG faithful!

Anyhow - its nice to have a more balanced set of views on here now. Maybe Lewis will win this weekend and make everything perfectly balanced.

#1048 robefc

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:50

I wrote exactly this in 2010 and was shot down in flames.

2 years later you write the exact same thing and its treated as the definition of obvious...

The tide has turned. Yippie!

:cool:



Yep. All those times I put that Hamilton needs to mature a bit to become the complete package - treated as "hating" at the time, now just the accepted view of 2011; his growing-up year.

Or when I put that I considered them very close, but with different strengths - again, treated with outrage by the TDG faithful!

Anyhow - its nice to have a more balanced set of views on here now. Maybe Lewis will win this weekend and make everything perfectly balanced.


Well I'm sorry to say that you were both wrong given the information to hand at the time.

The fact you've subsequently proven right (or probably right!) is irrelevant frankly.

...

What? If mclaren can use that reasoning when defending strategy... :p

Edited by robefc, 23 March 2012 - 14:51.


#1049 Rinehart

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:51

Pitting one or two laps before JB at the first pit stop does not automatically equal an extra pit stop, instead it gives LH a chance to compete for the win.



I love the way all the wannabe tyre and strategy experts give Lewis the benefit of the advantageous first stop without giving any regard to (A) the strategic consequence of that later in the race or (B) causing on his teammate exactly what they are arguing to avoid with Lewis - a compromised race!





#1050 Rinehart

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:55

Well I'm sorry to say that you were both wrong given the information to hand at the time.

The fact you've subsequently proven right (or probably right!) is irrelevant frankly.


:rotfl: