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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1251 P123

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:23

Which makes my point even truer.Imagine if it was a dry race,McLaren were setup heavily Quali biased,thus no race pace from Ham again.

And Alonso had race pace,again.And Mec did not again.
Coincidences?


Mclaren are being out smarted,a Ferrari driver leads the WDC standings,Ferrari mate. :wave:


The track was green. Probably an error in tyre pressures. McLaren were not the only slow(er) team than expected.

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#1252 ForzaGTR

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:35

Upon reflection I think Lewis is in a good place right now. The car is good and was much faster than everyone else before the red flag (set up changes on the restart?). He is currently 2nd in the WDC and ahead of his team mate. Two poles, two podiums, no steward visits, no big mistakes and no crashes. The wins will come.

Edited by Olly F1, 25 March 2012 - 11:43.


#1253 robefc

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:36

I think lewis will be' happy enough with a podium given the topsy turvy nature of the race and the fact jb and vettel went pointless.

No complaints at the first stop, his call and the call was fine just a slow stop but worked out fine, no idea why some can't see the difference between a dry and a wet race as far as team tactics at the first stop goes.

rubbish second stop but it happens and probably made no difference in the end, although i was screaming at them to pit a lap before Alonso did. More worrying was the lack of pace on inters and slicks after the SC.

I can't decide wether to be pleased with two solid results in light of things not quite working out or majorly disappointed at not converting two poles, you have to fill your boots when the car is good and minimise point losses when it's not/circumstances go against you...lewis somewhere between the two I guess.

Had to have a wry smile at button hitting someone and than having a battle with massa at the back of the field.

Edited by robefc, 25 March 2012 - 11:37.


#1254 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:38

There's really not much to say about that. Hamilton was solid, Button had a nightmare. Roll on China.


#1255 onewingedangel

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:02

Not a good race from McLaren, but a poor showing from Button - Jenson had a nightmare after hitting the HRT - I still don't understand why he pitted for a second set of inters - he was never going to make up 25 seconds, and anytime he lost on the inters out of temperature range was still better than an extra pit stop. And when the track was drying he had nothing to lose by going to the slicks first, he was going to be out of the points if he didn't take a risk - yet he left it a few laps too late to get into the points.

Lewis was solid - but still surprised he couldn't match Alonso or Perez even when it dried up. Hope McLaren can understand where they lost pace and ensure it doesn't happen again.

#1256 inca_roads

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:14

I thought Lewis' race was pretty good. Impressive defence at the start, controlled the race nicely early on, and generally kept his nose clean and was quick enough, apart from the front two guys who were unbelievable.

McLaren, however, let him down... again. Mistake in stop costs him the lead, and a poor call to change to dries too late (which meant a 10 second gap to Vettel more than halved)- the team really should take the responsibility when the decision is mainly down to spotting drivers who have already changed putting purple sectors on the timing screen. Change to inters on the safety car restart was more of a driver call, as there was no data of other cars to go on.

Button had a very poor day, a bit like Korea 2010, but nothing to worry about. It happens.

#1257 hammibal

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:24

Bad calls from the team there - but conspiracy theorists should look elsewhere. I think that they favored Jenson a little with the first switch to inters but that's probably because he asked to come in. I think Hamilton will have to start making these calls but I guess this is where Jenson's experience helps - knocking his wing off though was a real rookie move. If that were hamilton this board would be full of people lambasting him...

Anyway, I think that in the end it was great damage limitation by Hamilton as Mclaren did a horrible job on the pit wall. That's how the championship's going to won this year though - pick up the podiums and the wins will come. Shades of 2007.

Funny you should say Lewis himself said he wants to emulate 2007 with consistent podium finishes

They both didnt do good, and should be ashamed of the result with the car theyre driving. Having said that at least Lewis got a result, where Button absolutly dropped it. The weekend goes to Lewis imo.

You need to tell me what Lewis did wrong, i could tell you what his side of the garage did wrong though

Lewis gets this one by default.

I'm befuddled by his pace however... and the bad pit stops.

Defaut? Lewis was consistently quicker than Jenson

#1258 Coral

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:26

I'm quite happy with today's result. Lewis scored some good points despite poor pit stops. At last he seems to be playing the long game and aiming for getting points on the board, which could be crucial come the end of the season. Malaysia is not one of his best tracks and he has strong ones such as China coming up. Lewis certainly looked far happier today than he did last week.

What on earth happened to Jenson? It's very rare to see him make a mistake like that. I expected him to charge back up through the field but it didn't happen, and of course there was no flukey safety car to help him out today, unlike at Canada last year. :)

This weekend definitely goes to Lewis!

#1259 ImDDAA

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:56

Lewis' pace on everything after and including the inters wasn't very good, he couldn't even eat into Perez or Alonso's leads, however, not once did it feel like the team were trying to help him win the race there, they simply didn't do enough and got too much wrong. While Lewis wasn't on form he made no real mistakes and did well to maximise his position with another podium finish, plus he was looking solid before the inters. I think Lewis has work to do to figure out how to switch his car on in the race, looking at his set ups more, he still has fundamental speed but his technical understanding isn't quite there I don't think, however if while he's learning he finishes around the podium consistently, come the end of the season he may be within a shout of the Championship.

Button had one of those days - just imagine if Lewis had been in his shoes though, we'd see an ocean of comments over his collision and his inability to look after the tyres.

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#1260 hammibal

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:01

I thought Lewis' race was pretty good. Impressive defence at the start, controlled the race nicely early on, and generally kept his nose clean and was quick enough, apart from the front two guys who were unbelievable.

McLaren, however, let him down... again. Mistake in stop costs him the lead, and a poor call to change to dries too late (which meant a 10 second gap to Vettel more than halved)- the team really should take the responsibility when the decision is mainly down to spotting drivers who have already changed putting purple sectors on the timing screen. Change to inters on the safety car restart was more of a driver call, as there was no data of other cars to go on.

Button had a very poor day, a bit like Korea 2010, but nothing to worry about. It happens.

I was thinking of Korea as well, i'm fast losing confidence in Lewis's side of the garage now after they left it one lap to late too pit him for slicks when it was quite obvious the right thing to do, how can you make such elimentary mistakes, you cant blame that one on Lewis?

#1261 ImDDAA

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:02

I have to say I've always found the conspiracy theories laughable but I'm starting to feel less secure in that mindset. So many little details float about, week after week, on their own they are nothing, together they're not much, but there's something interesting to be discussed there. I've thought Whitmarsh prefers Button for a long time but always assumed that it had no tangible effect on how the drivers were treated. I hope I'm right but I'll be paying more attention to that topic this year.

#1262 speng

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:03

Lewis' pace on everything after and including the inters wasn't very good, he couldn't even eat into Perez or Alonso's leads, however, not once did it feel like the team were trying to help him win the race there, they simply didn't do enough and got too much wrong. While Lewis wasn't on form he made no real mistakes and did well to maximise his position with another podium finish, plus he was looking solid before the inters. I think Lewis has work to do to figure out how to switch his car on in the race, looking at his set ups more, he still has fundamental speed but his technical understanding isn't quite there I don't think, however if while he's learning he finishes around the podium consistently, come the end of the season he may be within a shout of the Championship.

Button had one of those days - just imagine if Lewis had been in his shoes though, we'd see an ocean of comments over his collision and his inability to look after the tyres.

The haters would be out in droves.
What was Button doing?

Edited by speng, 25 March 2012 - 13:06.


#1263 revlec

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:03

Lewis' pace on everything after and including the inters wasn't very good, he couldn't even eat into Perez or Alonso's leads, however, not once did it feel like the team were trying to help him win the race there, they simply didn't do enough and got too much wrong. While Lewis wasn't on form he made no real mistakes and did well to maximise his position with another podium finish, plus he was looking solid before the inters. I think Lewis has work to do to figure out how to switch his car on in the race, looking at his set ups more, he still has fundamental speed but his technical understanding isn't quite there I don't think, however if while he's learning he finishes around the podium consistently, come the end of the season he may be within a shout of the Championship.

Button had one of those days - just imagine if Lewis had been in his shoes though, we'd see an ocean of comments over his collision and his inability to look after the tyres.


What are you talking about?
some people study ENGINEERING for a reason.

This is not the first time Lewis drives Pirelli tyres(last year too). And if you remember well up until Monaco/Canada, he was doing pretty well. since then.. well

Edited by revlec, 25 March 2012 - 13:06.


#1264 teejay

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:04

If Lewis had the accident this thread would be 8 pages longer than it is atm.



#1265 hammibal

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:07

Funny thing when i saw the McLaren run into the back of Karthikeyan i instantly thought it was Lewis and thought oh no not again, totally gobsmacked when i found out it was Jenson

#1266 ImDDAA

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:08

The haters would be out in droves.
What was Button doing?


Button made a tiny mistake with his collision, nothing more.

#1267 ImDDAA

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:09

What are you talking about?
some people study ENGINEERING for a reason.

This is not the first time Lewis drives Pirelli tyres(last year too). And if you remember well up until Monaco/Canada, he was doing pretty well. since then.. well


The tyres and the cars are different this year.

Your opinion seems to be Lewis shouldn't try to understand how to set up a car because that's his engineers job? I don't see that as a credible view in any way shape or form.

#1268 Obi Offiah

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:11

If Lewis had the accident this thread would be 8 pages longer than it is atm.

Only 8?

#1269 inca_roads

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:12

I was thinking of Korea as well, i'm fast losing confidence in Lewis's side of the garage now after they left it one lap to late too pit him for slicks when it was quite obvious the right thing to do, how can you make such elimentary mistakes, you cant blame that one on Lewis?


No, I agree. Changing to slicks on a drying track is where you need more than a bit of help from your team. They have a timing screen. The driver doesn't.

#1270 Skellen

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:13

If Lewis had the accident this thread would be 8 pages longer than it is atm.


Maybe that becouse Jenson had just one little collision recently, while Lewis had a lot of them under his belt?

#1271 alg7_munif

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:13

Today proves 1 thing, Vettel and Button are both at the same level, they both did a rookie mistake.

#1272 Kvothe

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:16

I have to say I've always found the conspiracy theories laughable but I'm starting to feel less secure in that mindset. So many little details float about, week after week, on their own they are nothing, together they're not much, but there's something interesting to be discussed there. I've thought Whitmarsh prefers Button for a long time but always assumed that it had no tangible effect on how the drivers were treated. I hope I'm right but I'll be paying more attention to that topic this year.


So will I.

#1273 ImDDAA

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:18

Today proves 1 thing, Vettel and Button are both at the same level, they both did a rookie mistake.


Don't be dumb, all drivers make mistakes, last week Alonso dipped his tyre on the grass, last year Hamilton had plenty.

#1274 onewingedangel

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:26

Today proves 1 thing, Vettel and Button are both at the same level, they both did a rookie mistake.


Neither are used to racing a HRT - if Jenson has that lock up racing a Force India for example there wouldn't have been contact - the Force India would have been around the corner, wheras the HRT was a mobile chican at that point - it's no excuse but something to consider.

And Karthikeyan really seems to do as much as possible to get in the way even when being blue flagged, he should have been well out of Vettels way.

Edited by onewingedangel, 25 March 2012 - 13:28.


#1275 Skellen

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:27

Don't be dumb, all drivers make mistakes, last week Alonso dipped his tyre on the grass, last year Hamilton had plenty.


Agree totally. Rating a driver skill basing on just one race is stupid to say at least.

#1276 fieraku

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:32

So will I.

Welcome aboard.

#1277 learningtobelost

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:32

Don't be dumb, all drivers make mistakes, last week Alonso dipped his tyre on the grass, last year Hamilton had plenty.


Mclaren/Lewis made mistakes at all three stops today.

Stop 1 was a rare pit crew mistake and came a lap later than it really should have been looking at the timing screens. JB's side of the Garage got it right and would have jumped Lewis were it not for Schumacher.

Stop 2 came a lap late, a difficult one to judge at the time, you can put this down to a simple mistake.

Stop 3 came 1-2 laps too late, there was plenty of data around that slicks were 3-4 seconds quicker at the time. This mistake is completely inexcuseable.

Something needs to be done, we were lucky to escape with a podium today. It looks like the Mclaren isn't so hot on a cool/green track, but the real issue for me is the basic mistakes being made almost entirely by Lewis' side of the garage, we saw it several times last season and in both races this year so far. Whether it's the driver or the engineers, someone needs to take some ownership of the situation and sort it out!

#1278 ForzaGTR

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:35

Anyone see Whitmarsh's post race interview? My word his love for Jenson is so obvious. He barely even mentioned Lewis, who had a far better drive today. Pathetic. Lewis will have to beat his own team to win the WDC. If he recovers his old form and mindset then he'll do it. An in form Lewis Hamilton is a better driver than Button. Button seems to get pit priority no matter what. Where is the so called Mclaren equality?

#1279 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:39

Anyone see Whitmarsh's post race interview? My word his love for Jenson is so obvious. He barely even mentioned Lewis, who had a far better drive today. Pathetic. Lewis will have to beat his own team to win the WDC. If he recovers his old form and mindset then he'll do it. An in form Lewis Hamilton is a better driver than Button. Button seems to get pit priority no matter what. Where is the so called Mclaren equality?

Thanks to you and the rest of the tinfoil-hat brigade, you've cheered me right up.
Presumably you all think the only reason FA wasn't wdc in '07 was because he had to beat his own team to do it?

Edited by trogggy, 25 March 2012 - 13:39.


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#1280 Coral

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:39

Welcome aboard.


Some of us could see this coming two years ago. It's good to see that more people can finally see what is going on at McLaren. Mind you it is now so blatantly obvious that Button is being favoured, it is almost laughable.

#1281 PretentiousBread

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:41

Mclaren/Lewis made mistakes at all three stops today.

Stop 1 was a rare pit crew mistake and came a lap later than it really should have been looking at the timing screens. JB's side of the Garage got it right and would have jumped Lewis were it not for Schumacher.

Stop 2 came a lap late, a difficult one to judge at the time, you can put this down to a simple mistake.

Stop 3 came 1-2 laps too late, there was plenty of data around that slicks were 3-4 seconds quicker at the time. This mistake is completely inexcuseable.
Something needs to be done, we were lucky to escape with a podium today. It looks like the Mclaren isn't so hot on a cool/green track, but the real issue for me is the basic mistakes being made almost entirely by Lewis' side of the garage, we saw it several times last season and in both races this year so far. Whether it's the driver or the engineers, someone needs to take some ownership of the situation and sort it out!


Andy Latham will probably post in the MP4-27 thread some BS that they were looking for clean air, as if that is more important that fitting tyres which are that much faster anyway. They overanalyse and fail to strike when the iron is hot.


#1282 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:43

Andy Latham will probably post in the MP4-27 thread some BS that they were looking for clean air, as if that is more important that fitting tyres which are that much faster anyway. They overanalyse and fail to strike when the iron is hot.

Maybe. Or possibly that they were holding out for rain. They seemed to think more rain was coming for a long time.

#1283 Kvothe

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:45

Welcome aboard.


What?
Stating that you'll keep an eye out, isn't the same as admitting it exists.

We differ on many many points, I can assure you of that.

#1284 learningtobelost

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:46

Maybe. Or possibly that they were holding out for rain. They seemed to think more rain was coming for a long time.


That's what I assumed they were doing. To be fair, Mclaren should know all about acting in the heat of the moment rather than waiting for the weather, especially in Malaysia :rolleyes:

#1285 Boxerevo

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:48

Maybe. Or possibly that they were holding out for rain. They seemed to think more rain was coming for a long time.

I think this was the problem.

#1286 Anomnader

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:50

Looking at the lap times they were doing on a pretty much dry track, if they had come in for slicks early as possible, which could have being as much as 10 laps earlier, they would have had made up almost the extra pit stop time if it did start raining again.

#1287 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:52

Looking at the lap times they were doing on a pretty much dry track, if they had come in for slicks early as possible, which could have being as much as 10 laps earlier, they would have had made up almost the extra pit stop time if it did start raining again.

That's the thing though. If they'd pitted him 10 laps earlier and then it rained they'd be being called incompetent.
The teams were apparently expecting more rain. I don't know when they realised it wasn't coming.

#1288 f1fastestlap

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:53

Looking at the lap times they were doing on a pretty much dry track, if they had come in for slicks early as possible, which could have being as much as 10 laps earlier, they would have had made up almost the extra pit stop time if it did start raining again.


They didn't need 10 laps because 3 were enough(10s faster with dry tyres)...

#1289 Masenco

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:56

That's the thing though. If they'd pitted him 10 laps earlier and then it rained they'd be being called incompetent.
The teams were apparently expecting more rain. I don't know when they realised it wasn't coming.


But when everyone around them has pitted anyway for slicks, then what's the point of taking the extra gamble, you have more to lose than to gain...

#1290 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:57

But when everyone around them has pitted anyway for slicks, then what's the point of taking the extra gamble, you have more to lose than to gain...

Ten points to win if it rains.
How many points did he lose?

#1291 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:59

Button made a tiny mistake with his collision, nothing more.


It was a very tiny mistake and I've defended Button, but if that was Hamilton, references to his mental state and his ability to drive would have been 10x fold. Button can make this sort of mistake and thankfully the press will allow him to move on from it. If this was Hamilton, this incident would be the main talking point until the Chinese GP. ie; Hamiltons' head not in the right place. Hamilton with the wrong crowd, not fully focused on racing. Hamilton should be calm like Button, see the bigger picture and no take risks, as that place was not an overtaking opportunity. Hamilton too impetuous. Jenson would not have made that mistake, because he is so mature etc etc.


#1292 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:02

It was a very tiny mistake and I've defended Button, but if that was Hamilton, references to his mental state and his ability to drive would have been 10x fold. Button can make this sort of mistake and thankfully the press will allow him to move on from it. If this was Hamilton, this incident would be the main talking point until the Chinese GP. ie; Hamiltons' head not in the right place. Hamilton with the wrong crowd, not fully focused on racing. Hamilton should be calm like Button, see the bigger picture and no take risks, as that place was not an overtaking opportunity. Hamilton too impetuous. Jenson would not have made that mistake, because he is so mature etc etc.

If Button repeats that 'tiny mistake' a few times then he'll get a lot of criticism. It's not hard.

#1293 aray

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:07

Thanks to you and the rest of the tinfoil-hat brigade, you've cheered me right up.
Presumably you all think the only reason FA wasn't wdc in '07 was because he had to beat his own team to do it?

well MW is yet to say that "we are fighting against lewis.." at least.. ;)

#1294 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:08

If Button repeats that 'tiny mistake' a few times then he'll get a lot of criticism. It's not hard.


I doubt it and even if he did, I would not slaughter him for it. Button tried to get past, made a tiny racing incident mistake, end of subject. These incidents happen every race, it's just when a certain driver is involved logic seems to fly out of the window. At least the lunatics weren't claiming Button ruined Narains' race, thus demanding a penalty. :lol:


#1295 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:10

I doubt it ...

Okay.

#1296 Octavian

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:12

That's what I assumed they were doing. To be fair, Mclaren should know all about acting in the heat of the moment rather than waiting for the weather, especially in Malaysia :rolleyes:


Why would you wait for rain on shot inters? He'd be off faster than if he were on slicks.
What's the golden rule for F1? Always be on the right tyres! No point being out there losing time on the wrong tyres losing seconds on the chance that something could happen. As we seen today, the driver whom made the smartest stops at the right time won.

#1297 peroa

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:13

If Button repeats that 'tiny mistake' a few times then he'll get a lot of criticism. It's not hard.

If he wasn't best mates with the press, maybe, but I doubt.
Anyway, it was a racing incident, shit happens.

#1298 Masenco

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:13

Ten points to win if it rains.
How many points did he lose?


If he pitted at the same time as everyone else he would have been much closer to alonso and perez, then on equal terms the best man would have won.
When your in a strong position anyway, what's the need to take risks like that? Granted if you're futher down the order you should definitely take the risk as there's more to gain than to lose, but when you're in a bankable position which would also put you ahead of all your main competitors in the championship standings...

Don't get me wrong, one of the things I love most about Lewis is that he never gives up and always wants to win regardless of the position, but not this way using a quite risky strategy when you dont need to.

#1299 aray

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:14

narian still apologized to button...

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#1300 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:17

Why would you wait for rain on shot inters? He'd be off faster than if he were on slicks.

Because you can pit to put nice new inters on at the same time as the people on nice new slicks who've had an extra pit-stop pit for nice new inters.