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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1301 f1fastestlap

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:19

If he pitted at the same time as everyone else he would have been much closer to alonso and perez, then on equal terms the best man would have won.
When your in a strong position anyway, what's the need to take risks like that? Granted if you're futher down the order you should definitely take the risk as there's more to gain than to lose, but when you're in a bankable position which would also put you ahead of all your main competitors in the championship standings...

Don't get me wrong, one of the things I love most about Lewis is that he never gives up and always wants to win regardless of the position, but not this way using a quite risky strategy when you dont need to.


What risky strategy?
Ricciardo pitted 4 laps before and he was doing purples right on. McLaren, as usual, had to mess it up...

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#1302 aray

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:20

If he pitted at the same time as everyone else he would have been much closer to alonso and perez, then on equal terms the best man would have won.
When your in a strong position anyway, what's the need to take risks like that? Granted if you're futher down the order you should definitely take the risk as there's more to gain than to lose, but when you're in a bankable position which would also put you ahead of all your main competitors in the championship standings...

Don't get me wrong, one of the things I love most about Lewis is that he never gives up and always wants to win regardless of the position, but not this way using a quite risky strategy when you dont need to.

what are you saying..??!!..at one point checo was 8 sec adrift alonso and lewis was behind checo by similar margin...even after last pit-stop perez hunt down a 7 sec gap...lewis even couldn't manage to maintain the gap he had with checo originally...

#1303 hammibal

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:20

Only 8?



Maybe that becouse Jenson had just one little collision recently, while Lewis had a lot of them under his belt?

Well there's truth in that, but the Lewis antis have been around almost fron day 1

Mclaren/Lewis made mistakes at all three stops today.

Stop 1 was a rare pit crew mistake and came a lap later than it really should have been looking at the timing screens. JB's side of the Garage got it right and would have jumped Lewis were it not for Schumacher.

Stop 2 came a lap late, a difficult one to judge at the time, you can put this down to a simple mistake.

Stop 3 came 1-2 laps too late, there was plenty of data around that slicks were 3-4 seconds quicker at the time. This mistake is completely inexcuseable.

Something needs to be done, we were lucky to escape with a podium today. It looks like the Mclaren isn't so hot on a cool/green track, but the real issue for me is the basic mistakes being made almost entirely by Lewis' side of the garage, we saw it several times last season and in both races this year so far. Whether it's the driver or the engineers, someone needs to take some ownership of the situation and sort it out!

It was mistakes in Lewis side of the garage last year which led in part too Lewis's implosion, then Lewis started making mistakes which sort of took the attention away from them, now we're back too noticing mistakes in the pits again

#1304 glorius&victorius

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:23

Is it me or did Jenson get all the good calls today while Lewis got second-hand calls?

Also in Melbourne Jenson was given the undercut first.. and I related that to Jenson leading the race so having first right to call.

But here.... again Jenson got the best first calls.

I am a bit puzzled by this. As Ron would say: "where is the consistency?"

#1305 Masenco

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:24

What risky strategy?
Ricciardo pitted 4 laps before and he was doing purples right on. McLaren, as usual, had to mess it up...


I'm agreeing with you lol, I also think McLaren should have pitted for slicks once they saw everyone else had

#1306 Masenco

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:25

what are you saying..??!!..at one point checo was 8 sec adrift alonso and lewis was behind checo by similar margin...even after last pit-stop perez hunt down a 7 sec gap...lewis even couldn't manage to maintain the gap he had with checo originally...


chill dude, I didn't say Lewis would have definitely won if they had pit earlier, I'm just saying that he would have had a fair opportunity to, and if you have that and you're already in third, you don't need to take risks that could potentially drop you further behind

#1307 PARAZAR

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:26

Anyone see Whitmarsh's post race interview? My word his love for Jenson is so obvious. He barely even mentioned Lewis, who had a far better drive today. Pathetic. Lewis will have to beat his own team to win the WDC. If he recovers his old form and mindset then he'll do it. An in form Lewis Hamilton is a better driver than Button. Button seems to get pit priority no matter what. Where is the so called Mclaren equality?


Yes I did and you're not being exact on your representation of it. To be fair they talked about Lewis before and then they asked him about Jenson and that's when he talked about him. Also, Button has taken the blame for hitting Karthikeyan (as opposed to Vettel's cucumber comment) and apologized to the team for such a poor showing and said he can only laugh at how terrible a day he had (and that wasn't meant to be disrespectful towards Narain as someone stated in another thread). They showed the Button/Karthikeyan incident after the race and went frame by frame. Anthony Davidson explained that Narain locked his tires and Button misjudged and hit him. Even so it was Jenson's fault but still a racing incident not worthy of a penalty.

#1308 MP422

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:28

Is it me or did Jenson get all the good calls today while Lewis got second-hand calls?

Also in Melbourne Jenson was given the undercut first.. and I related that to Jenson leading the race so having first right to call.

But here.... again Jenson got the best first calls.

I am a bit puzzled by this. As Ron would say: "where is the consistency?"


Yea i agree... thought it was strange. :confused:

#1309 hammibal

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:36

Is it me or did Jenson get all the good calls today while Lewis got second-hand calls?

Also in Melbourne Jenson was given the undercut first.. and I related that to Jenson leading the race so having first right to call.

But here.... again Jenson got the best first calls.

I am a bit puzzled by this. As Ron would say: "where is the consistency?"

Points lost in the pits counting already

#1310 Masenco

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:40

Is it me or did Jenson get all the good calls today while Lewis got second-hand calls?

Also in Melbourne Jenson was given the undercut first.. and I related that to Jenson leading the race so having first right to call.

But here.... again Jenson got the best first calls.

I am a bit puzzled by this. As Ron would say: "where is the consistency?"


The thing is, here I think Lewis was fine with the tyres he was on and may not have particularly wanted to pit, therefore it's ok for Jenson to pit. But from what I had gathered from Australia was that Jenson was ok on his tyres and didn't want to pit but Lewis was really struggling at the end of stint and they still didn't let him pit.

This either means:
a. that they are very very very very biased to Jenson
b. that they leave give the lead driver priority but the following driver can choose to pit if the leading one doesn't- and that Lewis chose not to pit in Australia
c. that they kept Lewis out in Australia because they thought it would work out better overall if he managed another couple laps on those tyres.

I really hope that it was option c


#1311 ForzaGTR

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:41

Thanks to you and the rest of the tinfoil-hat brigade, you've cheered me right up.
Presumably you all think the only reason FA wasn't wdc in '07 was because he had to beat his own team to do it?


I'm not going to discuss 2007 anymore, it has been done to death.

#1312 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:44

I'm not going to discuss 2007 anymore, it has been done to death.

Sure. I don't think anyone talking about favouritism now wants to. Perfectly understandable.

#1313 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:46

The thing is, here I think Lewis was fine with the tyres he was on and may not have particularly wanted to pit, therefore it's ok for Jenson to pit. But from what I had gathered from Australia was that Jenson was ok on his tyres and didn't want to pit but Lewis was really struggling at the end of stint and they still didn't let him pit.

This either means:
a. that they are very very very very biased to Jenson
b. that they leave give the lead driver priority but the following driver can choose to pit if the leading one doesn't- and that Lewis chose not to pit in Australia
c. that they kept Lewis out in Australia because they thought it would work out better overall if he managed another couple laps on those tyres.

I really hope that it was option c

You missed one - the one that every team seems to follow:

d. Drivers (and their engineers) are free to choose when to pit for different tyres in changing conditions. If that means the second driver on track has to queue then tough - or go around again.

#1314 ForzaGTR

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:48

Sure. I don't think anyone talking about favouritism now wants to. Perfectly understandable.


The situations are not comparable.

This topic is about Jenson Vs Lewis 2012. nothing to do with Alonso.

#1315 Siperoth

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:49

Personally i still think the team just screw-up and is not trying to screw Hamilton for Button but as for the media and especially the countrymen of Hamilton... well there is the sad part. I expect them to have small few words comments of bad luck and uninspired performance with good points for Hamilton and nothing much about Button while if it was the other way around we wouldn't have seen the end of it on how Hamilton is losing his confidence, his erratic, overaggressive and so on and so on while a Button third would have been characterized as another cool and collect champion drive by Button that gives him good points and shows a mature driving instead of being uninspired.

Edited by Siperoth, 25 March 2012 - 14:52.


#1316 oligc94

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:50

In the context of the race itself, this wasn't really the best for Lewis. McLaren screwed him pretty bad in the pitstops and he lacked the pace later on in the race to challenge for the win.

However, in terms of the championship, this should really be seen as a positive race, because neither of his two closest rivals (JB and Vettel) even scored points.

#1317 ForzaGTR

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:52

I'm looking forward to China, Lewis is usually very strong there. I expect pole position. Hopefully he will have the race pace to win.

#1318 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:54

The situations are not comparable.

This topic is about Jenson Vs Lewis 2012. nothing to do with Alonso.

Either Mclaren have favourites, or they have driver equality, or they had driver equality in 2007 but changed that policy at some point, or... what?

You're (not just you, to be clear) making an accusation of favouritism within the team - of course it's relevant if a handful of years ago the same accusation was being made by some FA supporters and rebutted by the same people making it now.

My view is that it was bollocks then and it's bollocks now. I can see how someone would think it was true then and true now though.

#1319 Masenco

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:58

You missed one - the one that every team seems to follow:

d. Drivers (and their engineers) are free to choose when to pit for different tyres in changing conditions. If that means the second driver on track has to queue then tough - or go around again.


We're on different pages man, read my post again


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#1320 Anomnader

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:01

I wonder what the BBC Whitmarsh interview will be like.

#1321 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:05

We're on different pages man, read my post again

Okay, I've read it again.
d. still looks like the obvious answer.
What have I missed?

#1322 ForzaGTR

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:06

Either Mclaren have favourites, or they have driver equality, or they had driver equality in 2007 but changed that policy at some point, or... what?

You're (not just you, to be clear) making an accusation of favouritism within the team - of course it's relevant if a handful of years ago the same accusation was being made by some FA supporters and rebutted by the same people making it now.

My view is that it was bollocks then and it's bollocks now. I can see how someone would think it was true then and true now though.


Well I have no proof that Jenson is getting preferential treatment. Maybe it's just paranoia. But when you add up all the little things, strategies, various comments, MW body language etc then I think the situation could at least be called suspicious.

We'll see what happens over the course of the season.

One thing that goes against my theories is that if Button was getting preferential treatment, I would expect Lewis to not keep his mouth shut, thus far he has said nothing.

#1323 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:09

Well I have no proof that Jenson is getting preferential treatment. Maybe it's just paranoia. But when you add up all the little things, strategies, various comments, MW body language etc then I think the situation could at least be called suspicious.

We'll see what happens over the course of the season.

One thing that goes against my theories is that if Button was getting preferential treatment, I would expect Lewis to not keep his mouth shut, thus far he has said nothing.


Paranoia does have a way of making one see only what they want to see.

#1324 trogggy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:12

Well I have no proof that Jenson is getting preferential treatment. Maybe it's just paranoia. But when you add up all the little things, strategies, various comments, MW body language etc then I think the situation could at least be called suspicious.

We'll see what happens over the course of the season.

One thing that goes against my theories is that if Button was getting preferential treatment, I would expect Lewis to not keep his mouth shut, thus far he has said nothing.

That's what I think, obviously.

#1325 ForzaGTR

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 15:13

Paranoia does have a way of making one see only what they want to see.


True. The thing is, I don't care if MW likes Jenson more, that's just school play ground stuff. What I hate is the thought that MW's apparent Jenson man crush could actually influence strategy.

#1326 Lazy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 16:13

Oh well, when's the next one?

#1327 Lazy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 16:18

As to the conspiracy, I think it's nonsense. Lewis just lacks the nous/balls/confidence to make the decisions when needed.

#1328 Anomnader

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 16:20

As to the conspiracy, I think it's nonsense. Lewis just lacks the nous/balls/confidence to make the decisions when needed.


Except Buttons RE called him in. Big Fail.

Edited by Anomnader, 25 March 2012 - 16:20.


#1329 robefc

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 16:50

As to the conspiracy, I think it's nonsense. Lewis just lacks the nous/balls/confidence to make the decisions when needed.


The conspiracy theorists are making this a painful thread to read along with a couple of others.

However, think you're harsh on lewis, he retained the lead despite a slow stop after first stint and it was the delay in the pits that hurt him after SC, stopping for slicks was def a team call because they had the info, just wonder why they don't stick with a best tyres for the track philosophy and stop trying to second guess the weather.

#1330 WitnessX

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 16:58

Except Buttons RE called him in. Big Fail.

Well we only hear a few messages from the radio traffic, we don't know the full conversations that went on before the pit-stops (or pre-race briefing), and the tyres and crew have to be prepared for the pit-stops, so its normal for the RE to do the call to come in.

So its pure speculation as to what and how the pit-stop was discussed beforehand by either driver/RE.

#1331 f1fastestlap

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 17:14

Well we only hear a few messages from the radio traffic, we don't know the full conversations that went on before the pit-stops (or pre-race briefing), and the tyres and crew have to be prepared for the pit-stops, so its normal for the RE to do the call to come in.

So its pure speculation as to what and how the pit-stop was discussed beforehand by either driver/RE.

Of course, the same goes to Lewis on the many previous races... I guess...
Button was called in, end of...


#1332 Lazy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 17:22

The conspiracy theorists are making this a painful thread to read along with a couple of others.

However, think you're harsh on lewis, he retained the lead despite a slow stop after first stint and it was the delay in the pits that hurt him after SC, stopping for slicks was def a team call because they had the info, just wonder why they don't stick with a best tyres for the track philosophy and stop trying to second guess the weather.


Fair enough, but I think he needs to take some responsibility for his side of the garage, if his RE sucks get him changed or whatever the issue is. It seems that Alonso,Button etc would not put up with it for long and would get something done about it. The top of any sport takes no prisoners and tbh when things go wrong he just looks confused and bewildered. Jenson appears to laugh it off but gets the problem addressed.

Bit harsh but the whining is getting annoying.

#1333 peroa

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 17:22

Well we only hear a few messages from the radio traffic, we don't know the full conversations that went on before the pit-stops (or pre-race briefing), and the tyres and crew have to be prepared for the pit-stops, so its normal for the RE to do the call to come in.

So its pure speculation as to what and how the pit-stop was discussed beforehand by either driver/RE.


You can get a brief overview here.
http://www.dailymoti...highlights_auto

#1334 BootLace

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 17:40

The thing is, here I think Lewis was fine with the tyres he was on and may not have particularly wanted to pit, therefore it's ok for Jenson to pit. But from what I had gathered from Australia was that Jenson was ok on his tyres and didn't want to pit but Lewis was really struggling at the end of stint and they still didn't let him pit.

This either means:
a. that they are very very very very biased to Jenson
b. that they leave give the lead driver priority but the following driver can choose to pit if the leading one doesn't- and that Lewis chose not to pit in Australia
c. that they kept Lewis out in Australia because they thought it would work out better overall if he managed another couple laps on those tyres.

I really hope that it was option c


I thought Aus was a pretty straightforward unbiased situation. Can't remember the exact laps from memory, but whilst they did start losing time to the following cars, the lap times still looked good (with just a tenth drop-off) considering the gap they had back to 3rd. Then both Jense and Lewis dropped half a second, a clear sign that the tyres were about to go. At which point Jense pitted the next lap, with track advantage/priority meaning Lewis could either queue behind him, or pit next lap. The latter option was chosen, but I'd be surprised if there was much difference in time (e.g. 3 seconds lost on the extra lap vs 3 seconds lost queuing). Yes, if Lewis had stopped a lap earlier than Jenson, then he'd be better off, but there really didn't seem to be the hard evidence to demonstrate that was the way to go (at the time).

I really think we're in the same situation at the moment as we were last year at this stage. There really just isn't enough information about the revised spec tyres in combination with the new aero performance for proper planning to be made. Last week, this was exaggerated by poor weather in free practice, this week it was exaggerated by poor weather in the race. I'm confident once the first four or so races are out of the way, and hopefully, at least one "NORMAL" race, the decisions will be better made.

As for this week in particular. Yes, Jenson / his RE made the better calls early on, but they had the job of trying to take the lead. Lewis / his RE had the lead, and were working with a mindset of how do we keep this lead / minimise the chance of someone else taking it. Earlier radio clearly had Lewis asking what everyone else was doing, not so much what can we do. (and yes, I know this coverage is limited, and accept this isn't conclusive proof either way :)). There was a general sense of submission on Lewis' part, and he seemed moderately happy with the outcome.

Out of interest, the general consensus seems to be Lewis made no mistakes today. From what I remember, Lewis overrun his first pitstop by about a foot?

Anyway, there's a lot of racing to come, and it's very good to see just how many different competitors there are lining up behind McLaren. I think it means they can likely win it as a team this year without perfect results (thank god! :)), but does mean the actual WDC will come down to most consistent or possibly spectacular McLaren team member. I may have to stay away from this thread, I have a feeling it will become quite uncomfortable :)

#1335 GlenP

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 18:35

You guys are insane. Melbourne was dry and going to be dry throughout. Hamilton calling his tyres would have been close to shifting his strategy on the fly. Sepang was wet and unpredictable, so obviously the driver has more input. Nobody had a clue what the weather would do for the rest of the race. The conspiracies are about as silly as it gets, which is saying something in this thread!

Not a day to remember for Jenson - a total brain fade moment and never got back in the race. Hamilton did a very professional job, although Perez and Alonso showed everyone up.

#1336 hammibal

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 18:44

As to the conspiracy, I think it's nonsense. Lewis just lacks the nous/balls/confidence to make the decisions when needed.



Except Buttons RE called him in. Big Fail.

Why does McLaren need Mission Control when Lewis makes all his decisions? ;)

#1337 Lights

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 18:47

Mission control.. yeah that room full of people doing what exactly? I'm not noticing it, but they're certainly not in control.

#1338 Anomnader

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 18:47

Why does McLaren need Mission Control when Lewis makes all his decisions?;)


Are you trying to make a joke cause I don't have a clue what you are onabout?

#1339 hammibal

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 19:01

Are you trying to make a joke cause I don't have a clue what you are onabout?

Just wondering what they're doing when Lewis takes the blame for all his pitstops that are taken at the wrong time

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#1340 Anomnader

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 19:04

Just wondering what they're doing when Lewis takes the blame for all his pitstops that are taken at the wrong time


Who's blaming Lewis for the pitstops? The team decide when he comes in, for the last several pages this is what we've being moaning at, at their incompetence.

#1341 hammibal

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 19:15

Who's blaming Lewis for the pitstops? The team decide when he comes in, for the last several pages this is what we've being moaning at, at their incompetence.

You know i was initially replying to Lazy?

#1342 Anomnader

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 19:52

You know i was initially replying to Lazy?


Ah sorry! just I was quoted now I understand.

#1343 jerriy

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 20:05

Who's blaming Lewis for the pitstops? The team decide when he comes in, for the last several pages this is what we've being moaning at, at their incompetence.

Incompetence?

This is McLaren we're talking about.

No this is no incompetence, it is bias. Plain and simple.

You will see this bias manifested when (now that he's leading the WDC points within the team) yet you will witness that Lewis will NOT get teh 1st class treatment that Button got. Now suddenly that Whitemarsh will have an epiphany and suddenly invoke "100% equality" in tyres and all other pit decisions in the coming race.

#1344 as65p

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 20:07

Not a day to remember for Jenson - a total brain fade moment and never got back in the race. Hamilton did a very professional job, although Perez and Alonso showed everyone up.


That's it, in a nutshell. Shame about Button, but at least nice to see him totally acknowledge what a bad day he had.

#1345 Stormsky68

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 20:13

If Lewis absolutely believes he has to change his tyres, he should declare a radio error, shout 'I'm coming in' and plonk the car in the box. You can guarantee he will get the tyre change he wants.

Thats what he would have done in 07.

Edited by Stormsky68, 25 March 2012 - 20:16.


#1346 Anomnader

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 21:22

If Lewis absolutely believes he has to change his tyres, he should declare a radio error, shout 'I'm coming in' and plonk the car in the box. You can guarantee he will get the tyre change he wants.

Thats what he would have done in 07.


He had his dad there then, rather then his misses, mam and media manager........

All being down hill since his dad left.

#1347 garoidb

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 21:41

He had his dad there then, rather then his misses, mam and media manager........

All being down hill since his dad left.


Better perhaps to follow his father's lifelong example and to develop those qualities of Anthony which contributed to his success. There comes a time to be your own man, and I am sure that is why Lewis does not work with his Dad anymore.

#1348 Anomnader

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 21:43

I think its more to do with his dad telling him to ditch the bimbo ;-)

#1349 garoidb

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 21:47

I think its more to do with his dad telling him to ditch the bimbo ;-)


Maybe :lol: . Even so, I don't think having his Dad back is the answer. It has to come from Lewis.

#1350 dave12

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 21:50

Maybe :lol: . Even so, I don't think having his Dad back is the answer. It has to come from Lewis.

maybe Lewis ditching his dad was to soon?