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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1351 as65p

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 21:55

Gotta wonder how all those other drivers without dad-managers get along. :drunk:

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#1352 advan031

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:10

Button's attitude towards his horrible race is what makes me a big fan of him as a driver :rotfl: He accepts responsibility and not doom and gloom about it.

#1353 fisssssi

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:33

Button's attitude towards his horrible race is what makes me a big fan of him as a driver :rotfl: He accepts responsibility and not doom and gloom about it.


Agreed, he's the first to admit when he f***s up. As an ex-Fisichella fan ("I didn't spin off, something on the car broke" etc), it's so refreshing to hear that.

It was a shame though, I was telling my girlfriend during the start of the race that one of the reasons that Jenson is so good is because "he just never loses his front wing". So many drivers have pointless contact all the time but Button is usually so clean and precise. Anyone remember the last time he did something stupid like yesterday?

The other thing I liked was how in the press conference in Melbourne they asked him if he was thinking about Malaysia yet and he said "no, first I'm going to enjoy this victory." But after Malaysia he immediately said he's forgetting it and looking forward to China :)

#1354 Coops3

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:37

Agreed, he's the first to admit when he f***s up. As an ex-Fisichella fan ("I didn't spin off, something on the car broke" etc), it's so refreshing to hear that.

It was a shame though, I was telling my girlfriend during the start of the race that one of the reasons that Jenson is so good is because "he just never loses his front wing". So many drivers have pointless contact all the time but Button is usually so clean and precise. Anyone remember the last time he did something stupid like yesterday?

The other thing I liked was how in the press conference in Melbourne they asked him if he was thinking about Malaysia yet and he said "no, first I'm going to enjoy this victory." But after Malaysia he immediately said he's forgetting it and looking forward to China :)


:up: He does have a pretty faultless attitude.

#1355 mlsnoopy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:31

You guys are insane. Melbourne was dry and going to be dry throughout. Hamilton calling his tyres would have been close to shifting his strategy on the fly. Sepang was wet and unpredictable, so obviously the driver has more input. Nobody had a clue what the weather would do for the rest of the race. The conspiracies are about as silly as it gets, which is saying something in this thread!

Not a day to remember for Jenson - a total brain fade moment and never got back in the race. Hamilton did a very professional job, although Perez and Alonso showed everyone up.


So we are insane because that what would have gave McLaren a 1-2 in Australia happened in Malaysia. We are insane beacause out theory get confirmed one race later. Yup. There is more than enough evidence that Hamilton is getting bad strategy calls by the team, you just need to except it.

#1356 Lazy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:21

So we are insane because that what would have gave McLaren a 1-2 in Australia happened in Malaysia. We are insane beacause out theory get confirmed one race later. Yup. There is more than enough evidence that Hamilton is getting bad strategy calls by the team, you just need to except it.


I take exception to it, it's nonsense. If your theory is correct, it's going into it's 3rd year now which means that either:

1. Hamilton is too stupid to know what's going on.
2. He knows what's going on but is too scared to do anything about it.
3. He's the main problem.

All premised on the assumption that MW and the whole management team are in on the conspiracy and so do nothing about it.

I go with 3 myself.

#1357 Lights

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:32

It was a shame though, I was telling my girlfriend during the start of the race that one of the reasons that Jenson is so good is because "he just never loses his front wing". So many drivers have pointless contact all the time but Button is usually so clean and precise. Anyone remember the last time he did something stupid like yesterday?

Monaco 2008. But thanks for jinxing him! :(

#1358 PretentiousBread

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:41

Agreed, he's the first to admit when he f***s up. As an ex-Fisichella fan ("I didn't spin off, something on the car broke" etc), it's so refreshing to hear that.

It was a shame though, I was telling my girlfriend during the start of the race that one of the reasons that Jenson is so good is because "he just never loses his front wing". So many drivers have pointless contact all the time but Button is usually so clean and precise. Anyone remember the last time he did something stupid like yesterday?

The other thing I liked was how in the press conference in Melbourne they asked him if he was thinking about Malaysia yet and he said "no, first I'm going to enjoy this victory." But after Malaysia he immediately said he's forgetting it and looking forward to China :)


I know, I think the last was Monaco '08 - his mistakes are few and far between. Significantly lower than Ham, Vettel and Alonso.

#1359 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:44

Button made a few mistakes at Canada last year, though I'm sure no one wants to concede he was at fault once.

Edit: I love how Troggy and the usuals make fun of those who observed McLaren favouring Button during the race, saying because it was wet you should ignore what you saw, I then read this tweet:

'Jenson gets first call on strategy in today's race as he's currently ahead in the championship. That's how McLaren make that decision. #f1 - Marc Priestly'

Mac were favouring him. Glad to see that Hamilton will get priority in the next race then.

Edited by ImDDAA, 26 March 2012 - 08:00.


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#1360 itsademo

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:01

I take exception to it, it's nonsense. If your theory is correct, it's going into it's 3rd year now which means that either:

1. Hamilton is too stupid to know what's going on.
2. He knows what's going on but is too scared to do anything about it.
3. He's the main problem.

All premised on the assumption that MW and the whole management team are in on the conspiracy and so do nothing about it.

I go with 3 myself.

you ignore a 4th option
he knows what is going on but knows he is the better driver and given a car like he has, he will on skill and talent alone win out.
Witless can try all he wants but in the end he will show himself for what he is and Ron will remove witless sooner rather than later.
He is not only costing their drivers points but the team too and only a fool thinks McLaren will tolerate that

Edited by itsademo, 26 March 2012 - 08:05.


#1361 Sevach

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:04

The most likely explanation, to what happened today with Button getting better pit calls is that on a damp/wet track quick decisions are required so it's a "free for all" on when to come in.
On dry track, normal race conditions, lead(ing) guy gets the call... I think... TAN TAN TAAAAAN (suspense).

BTW only the first call was better, the second... not so much.
Coming straight to the pits after the SC, Jenson ended up behind Alonso and Perez, both of whom he was infront before pitting.
Lewis, who pitted in the same lap of Alonso, lost out to Button because of a very slow stop, not because of a bad call.

#1362 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:05

The most likely explanation, to what happened today with Button getting better pit calls is that on a damp/wet track quick decisions are required so it's a "free for all" on when to come in.
On dry track, normal race conditions, lead(ing) guy gets the call... I think... TAN TAN TAAAAAN (suspense).

BTW only the first call was better, the second... not so much.
Coming straight to the pits after the SC, Jenson ended up behind Alonso and Perez, both of whom he was infront before pitting.
Lewis, who pitted in the same lap of Alonso, lost out to Button because of a very slow stop, not because of a bad call.


Button was favoured with the calls yesterday, he got first choice.

#1363 Lazy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:26

you ignore a 4th option
he knows what is going on but knows he is the better driver and given a car like he has, he will on skill and talent alone win out.
Witless can try all he wants but in the end he will show himself for what he is and Ron will remove witless sooner rather than later.
He is not only costing their drivers points but the team too and only a fool thinks McLaren will tolerate that


Ofc, silly me, just like last year.

#1364 PretentiousBread

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:26

Button made a few mistakes at Canada last year, though I'm sure no one wants to concede he was at fault once.


His brush with Hamilton - don't think anyone will ever know the truth for certain on that one.

His brush with Alonso - he had the inside line and corner rights in my view and was on warm tyres vs Alonso who was just out of the pits. was unfortunate he collected Alonso and he gave himself a puncture, but I, like the stewards, would not have awarded him a penalty. Still, I'm quite positive Hamilton would have got a penalty for the same incident. Both driver's reputations precede them.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 26 March 2012 - 08:28.


#1365 PARAZAR

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:39

I think I may have found the reason for which Jenson underperformed during the race. Jessica wasn't at the circuit on Sunday so his bubble was deflated. :p

Edited by PARAZAR, 26 March 2012 - 08:40.


#1366 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:39

His brush with Hamilton - don't think anyone will ever know the truth for certain on that one.

His brush with Alonso - he had the inside line and corner rights in my view and was on warm tyres vs Alonso who was just out of the pits. was unfortunate he collected Alonso and he gave himself a puncture, but I, like the stewards, would not have awarded him a penalty. Still, I'm quite positive Hamilton would have got a penalty for the same incident. Both driver's reputations precede them.


It's been discussed it to death, but just quickly - if you can get a decent video of the Hamilton-Jenson Canada incident you can get to a frame where Lewis is half way alongside Buttons car at which point he realises Button isn't going to stop moving towards him so he slams his brakes on but it's not enough, Button keeps coming and they clip. My conclusion was that Lewis was pushing his luck trying it on there as he was slipping into the racing line but it was Button who moved into him, he has the valid excuse of no visibility, we know he was looking for Lewis and it's safe to assume he couldn't see him, on a dry day there'd be no question who was at fault.

#1367 hunnylander

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:46

Ofc, silly me, just like last year.

Now Lewis is Mr Consistent. :smoking:

#1368 zack1994

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:03

It's been discussed it to death, but just quickly - if you can get a decent video of the Hamilton-Jenson Canada incident you can get to a frame where Lewis is half way alongside Buttons car at which point he realises Button isn't going to stop moving towards him so he slams his brakes on but it's not enough, Button keeps coming and they clip. My conclusion was that Lewis was pushing his luck trying it on there as he was slipping into the racing line but it was Button who moved into him, he has the valid excuse of no visibility, we know he was looking for Lewis and it's safe to assume he couldn't see him, on a dry day there'd be no question who was at fault.

Watch Anthony davidson explain why it was a racing incident.

#1369 sofarapartguy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:12

I always thought that there is no preference in the wet - whoever wants to pit and change tires just tells it to RE and pits in. That was the case in Melbourne 10, Hungary 11 and so on.

Maybe the truth is, JB is just better at understanding when is the exact moment to pit in and switch tires in changeable condition, where Lewis is still waiting for his RE to call him in?

Edited by sofarapartguy, 26 March 2012 - 10:13.


#1370 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:28

I always thought that there is no preference in the wet - whoever wants to pit and change tires just tells it to RE and pits in. That was the case in Melbourne 10, Hungary 11 and so on.

Maybe the truth is, JB is just better at understanding when is the exact moment to pit in and switch tires in changeable condition, where Lewis is still waiting for his RE to call him in?

You are of course totally correct. Wet race, the driver must be much more involved in the strategy and needs to assume much more responsibility for calling the tyres. There is no correlation whatsoever with the procedures for a regular dry race, which are carefully pre-planned and can't be deviated from on a mere whim.

The conspiracy theories are laughable - especially since the individuals who believe McLaren are screwing one of their superstar drivers are the same people who don't believe for a moment that McLaren did the same thing to Alonso (creating in the process Hamilton's reputation)! It bears no scrutiny on any level, other than careful selection of "evidence" to match the bias. Furthermore, a lot of the criticism of MW is very thinly veiled playing of the race card it seems to me, which I find highly distasteful.

I'll continue to follow the thread because it remains the most exciting team-mate battle in F1, but I won't comment again about the conspiracies because I find them lower than low.

#1371 revlec

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:53

You are of course totally correct. Wet race, the driver must be much more involved in the strategy and needs to assume much more responsibility for calling the tyres. There is no correlation whatsoever with the procedures for a regular dry race, which are carefully pre-planned and can't be deviated from on a mere whim.

The conspiracy theories are laughable - especially since the individuals who believe McLaren are screwing one of their superstar drivers are the same people who don't believe for a moment that McLaren did the same thing to Alonso (creating in the process Hamilton's reputation)! It bears no scrutiny on any level, other than careful selection of "evidence" to match the bias. Furthermore, a lot of the criticism of MW is very thinly veiled playing of the race card it seems to me, which I find highly distasteful.

I'll continue to follow the thread because it remains the most exciting team-mate battle in F1, but I won't comment again about the conspiracies because I find them lower than low.


Some of you are very nervous after yesterday race...;)

#1372 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:06

Some of you are very nervous after yesterday race...;)

Not a bit of it. You get good weekends, bad weekends. We've had two races - very little difference in the first race (they can't both come first) and a bit of a messy race for the second, where JB did a bit of "fail". There is no pattern emerging there - I would not and did not call Hamilton's 2011 season no the basis of one bad race. If Jenson has a few more crazy poor races I won't hesitate to call it as the evidence suggests, but that would be a pretty big turn around.

I see no reason to deviate from my usual stance - they are very close with Jenson prevailing eventually due to superior experience and a more calculated approach - one race that does not fit that pattern does not disprove the pattern.

Hamilton's Sepang was very solid and professional, Button's wasn't. That doesn't mean everything is turned 180 degrees around.

#1373 robefc

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:14

Button made a few mistakes at Canada last year, though I'm sure no one wants to concede he was at fault once.

Edit: I love how Troggy and the usuals make fun of those who observed McLaren favouring Button during the race, saying because it was wet you should ignore what you saw, I then read this tweet:

'Jenson gets first call on strategy in today's race as he's currently ahead in the championship. That's how McLaren make that decision. #f1 - Marc Priestly'

Mac were favouring him. Glad to see that Hamilton will get priority in the next race then.


Who's Marc priestly?

F1 fanatic wrote an explanation that concurs with my own thoughts - dry race lead driver gets the  call, second can't undercut if running close together, wet race lead driver still gets the call but second can do what they like in response 

Very interested to hear if they're running it a different way, although that explanation would seem silly to 
me  so early on and obviously irrelevant in oz. 

Was JB ahead in the WDC last year at china?

Edited by robefc, 26 March 2012 - 11:18.


#1374 f1fastestlap

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:25

Who's Marc priestly?



Former McLaren chief mechanic.

Edited by f1fastestlap, 26 March 2012 - 11:25.


#1375 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:31

Without knowing when that tweet was made there is nothing to learn, surely? It wasn't raining all day before the race. Wet races must be different. No team is going to stick to a dogma in the face of the ever-changing situation of a wet race.

#1376 f1fastestlap

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:36

Without knowing when that tweet was made there is nothing to learn, surely? It wasn't raining all day before the race. Wet races must be different. No team is going to stick to a dogma in the face of the ever-changing situation of a wet race.


Hmmm, here's the timeline: https://twitter.com/#!/f1elvis


Marc Priestley ‏ @f1elvis
Jenson gets first call on strategy in today's race as he's currently ahead in the championship. That's how McLaren make that decision. #f1

4:46 AM - 25 Mar 12 via Twitter for iPhone

#1377 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:38

Hmmm, here's the timeline: https://twitter.com/#!/f1elvis


Marc Priestley ‏ @f1elvis
Jenson gets first call on strategy in today's race as he's currently ahead in the championship. That's how McLaren make that decision. #f1

4:46 AM - 25 Mar 12 via Twitter for iPhone

That's a UK time is it? Makes a tiny kind of sense in so much as it does not take account of the rain, although it makes no sense in any other way because there is no pattern in the Championship after one race.

#1378 ForzaGTR

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:03

So Lewis will get first dibs in China then...I doubt it. Any way Lewis is king in China, pole for sure

#1379 sofarapartguy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:09

Some of you are very nervous after yesterday race...;)


If JB is not nervous, why will we be so?

Edited by sofarapartguy, 26 March 2012 - 12:12.


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#1380 Kvothe

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:14

So Lewis will get first dibs in China then...I doubt it. Any way Lewis is king in China, pole for sure


Don't be so sure, Jenson has out qualified him there for the past two years.

#1381 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:14

So Lewis will get first dibs in China then...I doubt it. Any way Lewis is king in China, pole for sure

I would imagine whoever is in the lead in the first stint will get the call, same as before.

I can't imagine that the "leader in the Championship" thing kicks in until much later in the season - until there actually is a leader.

I do imagine though that whatever happens some will read into it the thing that they are already thinking.

I can't imagine that the team will let either driver come in if doing so represents a big compromise of the their race strategy.

#1382 BinaryDad

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:33

Furthermore, a lot of the criticism of MW is very thinly veiled playing of the race card it seems to me, which I find highly distasteful.


I think I'll just concentrate on this point, and come right out and say it; youe talking absolute rubbish. How is it in any way "playing the race card"? It might be playing the "MW has his favorites" card, but it is in no way playing any sort of god dammed race card, and you know it. I have no idea how you're coming to this conclusion.

You don't like what you're reading, I get it. It's a bit worrying that all of a sudden "lead driver changes pit strategy" becomes "driver ahead in the points after one race" but that;s ok. We'll see over time how this develops, but this sort of pit call is something we have never heard of in the last few seasons with McLaren, even in changing conditions! Why the sudden change?

But that's no excuse to go of the deep end with accusations of "playing the race card". It makes you as much of a muppet to say that as it would for anybody who DOES try and put a racism slant on the whole MW/LH thing.

#1383 BillBald

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:40

Button was favoured with the calls yesterday, he got first choice.


I noticed that Massa and Button came in together for the first stop. Clearly Whitmarsh favouring Button, and Ferrari equally biased towards Massa. :)

I wonder if Alonso can turn that around.



#1384 Force Ten

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:46

Witless can try all he wants but in the end he will show himself for what he is and Ron will remove witless sooner rather than later.

Long time no see, Bonaventura. How's life and all?

#1385 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:51

I think I'll just concentrate on this point, and come right out and say it; youe talking absolute rubbish. How is it in any way "playing the race card"? It might be playing the "MW has his favorites" card, but it is in no way playing any sort of god dammed race card, and you know it. I have no idea how you're coming to this conclusion.

You don't like what you're reading, I get it. It's a bit worrying that all of a sudden "lead driver changes pit strategy" becomes "driver ahead in the points after one race" but that;s ok. We'll see over time how this develops, but this sort of pit call is something we have never heard of in the last few seasons with McLaren, even in changing conditions! Why the sudden change?

But that's no excuse to go of the deep end with accusations of "playing the race card". It makes you as much of a muppet to say that as it would for anybody who DOES try and put a racism slant on the whole MW/LH thing.

I just say what I see. All these references to MW having his "favourite". If you don't see it that way, then fair enough - you have a different opinion and that's what discussion is all about. Nothing you've said however persuades me otherwise - especially your tone. I strongly believe that there is no bias at McLaren - certainly not having the slightest influence on the way they conduct a race. I think people accusing MW of favouritism and furthermore suggesting that he would seriously compromise the fortunes of the team because of it leaves a very obvious question hanging in the air - ie; what could possibly motivate him to do that?

I don't think there is ANY change in the business of how pit stops are decided - it is made up bull'.

Now I really am done with the favouritism stuff - I actually do believe McLaren are capable of favouring one driver when one is much stronger than the other, but there is no way they would set out in that fashion A) so early in the season, and B) with two drivers so obviously evenly matched and of such high calibre. If you disagree with that then fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine - but I would have thought if anyone can entertain such a far-fetched idea they must also accept that similar things were going on with Alonso in 2007. If you believe the one and not the other that is another dent in your credibility as far as I am concerned.

#1386 BinaryDad

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:06

I just say what I see. All these references to MW having his "favourite". If you don't see it that way, then fair enough - you have a different opinion and that's what discussion is all about. Nothing you've said however persuades me otherwise - especially your tone. I strongly believe that there is no bias at McLaren - certainly not having the slightest influence on the way they conduct a race.


So just saying that MW has a favorite, constitutes playing the race card? Good lord, you have the cheek to accuse people of seeing something that you don't think is there, and you come out with this sort of tripe?

I think people accusing MW of favouritism and furthermore suggesting that he would seriously compromise the fortunes of the team because of it leaves a very obvious question hanging in the air - ie; what could possibly motivate him to do that?

I don't think there is ANY change in the business of how pit stops are decided - it is made up bull'.


I can understand that view. But it did all did seem rather odd as we've never seen or heard of McLaren treating the drivers title as being an important factor before. The important thing is, to keep an open mind either way....which is what I'm doing. I'm waiting to see what happens in the next race.

And to answer your question; there are tonnes of reasons why MW might want to put one driver over another; there might be many reasons. There might not be any and it was all just how events played out.

but I would have thought if anyone can entertain such a far-fetched idea they must also accept that similar things were going on with Alonso in 2007. If you believe the one and not the other that is another dent in your credibility as far as I am concerned.


After Hungary 2007, I think Alonso was definitely given less priority and perhaps his mechanics were less than happy with him.

#1387 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:22

…accuse people of seeing something that you don't think is there, and you come out with this sort of tripe.

Fair enough - that does make sense and I reign-in my point on those grounds. The absence of any potential reason for McLaren to screw their own chances is the most important element of my argument - so you are correct that I shouldn't make any assumptions myself.

Of course, that does leave the question of what on earth your assumptions are!

#1388 Alcibiades

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:25

So just saying that MW has a favorite, constitutes playing the race card? Good lord, you have the cheek to accuse people of seeing something that you don't think is there, and you come out with this sort of tripe?



I can understand that view. But it did all did seem rather odd as we've never seen or heard of McLaren treating the drivers title as being an important factor before. The important thing is, to keep an open mind either way....which is what I'm doing. I'm waiting to see what happens in the next race.

And to answer your question; there are tonnes of reasons why MW might want to put one driver over another; there might be many reasons. There might not be any and it was all just how events played out.



After Hungary 2007, I think Alonso was definitely given less priority and perhaps his mechanics were less than happy with him.


So why has Alonso gone on record saying that he was given equal treatment? That's why that FIA representative was appointed to ensure equal treatment.


#1389 BinaryDad

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:40

Fair enough - that does make sense and I reign-in my point on those grounds. The absence of any potential reason for McLaren to screw their own chances is the most important element of my argument - so you are correct that I shouldn't make any assumptions myself.

Of course, that does leave the question of what on earth your assumptions are!


My assumptions are;

a) The "wdc leader gets priority" may have been the reason Jenson was given preference.
b) If so, then it's highly unusual for McLaren to do that. Forget the stage of the championship we're at...it's unusual for Mclaren to do it at all. So why the sudden change?

For me, there are just enough things that seem rather odd, to keep an eye on what happens in China (Lewis being told to change his clutch settings in Oz, Jenson being given strategy preference over the lead driver).

It could be that the team really ARE that incompetent on a regular basis and there's nothing more to it...

Edited by BinaryDad, 26 March 2012 - 13:40.


#1390 PNSD

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:55

After Oz: LOLOMG LEWIS IZ FINISHED

Afer Sepang: LOLOMG JB IZ FINISHED.

I hope it isnt like this after every race. We knew it would close, both are world champs, both are awesome.

#1391 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:58

My assumptions are;

a) The "wdc leader gets priority" may have been the reason Jenson was given preference.
b) If so, then it's highly unusual for McLaren to do that. Forget the stage of the championship we're at...it's unusual for Mclaren to do it at all. So why the sudden change?

For me, there are just enough things that seem rather odd, to keep an eye on what happens in China (Lewis being told to change his clutch settings in Oz, Jenson being given strategy preference over the lead driver).

It could be that the team really ARE that incompetent on a regular basis and there's nothing more to it...

I don't even think he was given preference, let alone the reason! The team asked Hamilton where he was at with the tyres, and he replied by asking what everyone else was doing didn't he? As far as I could tell, Jenson got tyres because he wanted them - only in hindsight did it look like an error for Ham to stay out, and certainly I didn't see/hear him asking for tyres and being denied. Or did I miss something?

There is no sudden change. There is nothing. Melbourne - if Ham had stopped early he may have compromised the rest of his race (dropping the place to Vettel was pure bad luck). Sepang was a chaotic wet race where decisions either look smart or sinister depending on hindsight and reading way too much into things.

It isn't even incompetence - you are just reading it with hindsight and looking for a pattern that isn't there.

This whole discussion can't make any sense now - give it eight or ten races. You are just over-examining and trying to find a pattern from way too small a sample.

#1392 tommyhjortasen

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 14:05

I don´t think the team favour one driver over the other, they threat them the same.

But, the members of the team are only human, it´s natural to like someone moore than others for obvious reasons.

#1393 WitnessX

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 14:18

Not a bit of it. You get good weekends, bad weekends. We've had two races - very little difference in the first race (they can't both come first) and a bit of a messy race for the second, where JB did a bit of "fail". There is no pattern emerging there - I would not and did not call Hamilton's 2011 season no the basis of one bad race. If Jenson has a few more crazy poor races I won't hesitate to call it as the evidence suggests, but that would be a pretty big turn around.

I see no reason to deviate from my usual stance - they are very close with Jenson prevailing eventually due to superior experience and a more calculated approach - one race that does not fit that pattern does not disprove the pattern.

Hamilton's Sepang was very solid and professional, Button's wasn't. That doesn't mean everything is turned 180 degrees around.

A bit harsh on JB?

He made a mistake and didn't get away with it. It totaly ruined his race. Also problems with a set of tyres. He showed he was able to do quick lap times when the circumstances permitted.

The extra pit-stops themselves alone cost them an extra 53 seconds, the "shuddering tyres" problem (which appeared to be solved on the next set) cost 5 seconds.

From lap 25 onward Lewis only gained 7 seconds on Jenson, and thats with Jenson battling through traffic including a "do or die" tussle with Massa.

#1394 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 14:25

A bit harsh on JB?

He made a mistake and didn't get away with it. It totaly ruined his race. Also problems with a set of tyres. He showed he was able to do quick lap times when the circumstances permitted.

The extra pit-stops themselves alone cost them an extra 53 seconds, the "shuddering tyres" problem (which appeared to be solved on the next set) cost 5 seconds.

From lap 25 onward Lewis only gained 7 seconds on Jenson, and thats with Jenson battling through traffic including a "do or die" tussle with Massa.

Just because I can't rate it solid and professional, doesn't make it the total opposite! Jenson's race was average and lacked sparkle. Bit of bad luck too, of course. Lewis race wasn't exactly scintillating, but it certainly was solid, professional and workmanlike and did not feature the obvious error that Jenson made. Actually, If they had swapped helmets without telling us the result would have been pretty much in line with cliché! Goes to show the problem with stereotyping.

So, no, I don't think I was being harsh.

#1395 Kvothe

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 14:32

A bit harsh on JB?

He made a mistake and didn't get away with it. It totaly ruined his race. Also problems with a set of tyres. He showed he was able to do quick lap times when the circumstances permitted.

The extra pit-stops themselves alone cost them an extra 53 seconds, the "shuddering tyres" problem (which appeared to be solved on the next set) cost 5 seconds.

From lap 25 onward Lewis only gained 7 seconds on Jenson, and thats with Jenson battling through traffic including a "do or die" tussle with Massa.


Excuses  ;)

Jokes aside, JB pitted for a new set of intermediates (possibly twice, I'm not sure if they changed his tires again when he came in for a new front wing) whilst Lewis remained on the same set which looked absolutely horrendous by the end of his stint. Considering Jenson was on the fresher rubber and had a greater need to push relative to Lewis who undoubtedly would have been eeking the bejesus out of those tires until the transition to slicks, I'm surprised Lewis managed to gain 7 seconds on Jenson (pit stops excluded)

Edited by Kvothe, 26 March 2012 - 14:45.


#1396 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:04

I noticed that Massa and Button came in together for the first stop. Clearly Whitmarsh favouring Button, and Ferrari equally biased towards Massa. :)

I wonder if Alonso can turn that around.


You're funny but may have missed out that we've found out it was McLaren policy to favor Button this weekend as he's ahead in the Championship. Sounds daft but that's what we've heard. Not to aid the conspiracies but by complete coincidence that policy would of course be more likely to help the weaker qualifier of the two than the usual policy of whoever is leading at the first pit stop.

#1397 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:10

Excuses ;)

Jokes aside, JB pitted for a new set of intermediates (possibly twice, I'm not sure if they changed his tires again when he came in for a new front wing) whilst Lewis remained on the same set which looked absolutely horrendous by the end of his stint. Considering Jenson was on the fresher rubber and had a greater need to push relative to Lewis who undoubtedly would have been eeking the bejesus out of those tires until the transition to slicks, I'm surprised Lewis managed to gain 7 seconds on Jenson (pit stops excluded)


They did change Buttons tyres when he came in for the new wing.

#1398 Gridfire

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:10

Excuses ;)

Jokes aside, JB pitted for a new set of intermediates (possibly twice, I'm not sure if they changed his tires again when he came in for a new front wing) whilst Lewis remained on the same set which looked absolutely horrendous by the end of his stint. Considering Jenson was on the fresher rubber and had a greater need to push relative to Lewis who undoubtedly would have been eeking the bejesus out of those tires until the transition to slicks, I'm surprised Lewis managed to gain 7 seconds on Jenson (pit stops excluded)


Button did get a new set of Intermediates along with his new nose, did about 4 laps on them and then pulled in for his 3rd set of Inters, because there was something wrong with at least one of the 2nd set.

Lewis' gain was a net gain - I'm sure he was simply trying to maintain position and look after those tyres when it became clear he wasn't catching Perez or Alonso any time soon. Button was faster on clear laps with fresher tyres and slower on laps where he was negotiating backmarkers and overtaking competitors, of course. Though the tyre problem lost him a few positions, I'm not sure Jenson would have made it into the top 10 anyway, after the nose problem so soon after the restart while all the cars were still quite bunched up. Lots of bad luck.

#1399 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:14

You're funny but may have missed out that we've found out it was McLaren policy to favor Button this weekend as he's ahead in the Championship. Sounds daft but that's what we've heard. Not to aid the conspiracies but by complete coincidence that policy would of course be more likely to help the weaker qualifier of the two than the usual policy of whoever is leading at the first pit stop.

You haven't found that out at all. You read that this could be their policy. But you certainly haven't read that they do that no matter what - changing conditions of a wet race make all that redundant.

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#1400 bauss

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:17

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