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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1401 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:19

You haven't found that out at all. You read that this could be their policy. But you certainly haven't read that they do that no matter what - changing conditions of a wet race make all that redundant.


Apologies.

A former McLaren mechanic has said that it was McLarens policy this weekend, GlenP knows he's wrong though.

I do say 'that's what we've heard', plus that's what I saw with my own two eyes across the entire race, you prefer the idea that Hamilton and his RE got every call wrong, cool.

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#1402 Sevach

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:21

After the wing change Button was right behind Maldonado (after his pit screwup), Button couldn't catch him, but wasn't loosing much either, and decided to give up on that set of tires and pit again.

Maldonado kept going and was set to finish 10 (8 was possible) until the engine problem, bad decision by JB and nothing special pace wise either.



#1403 GlenP

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:23

Apologies.

A former McLaren mechanic has said that it was McLarens policy this weekend, GlenP knows he's wrong though.

I do say 'that's what we've heard', plus that's what I saw with my own two eyes across the entire race, you prefer the idea that Hamilton and his RE got every call wrong, cool.

My point is that you looked at a chaotic wet race (where the principle would not apply, because no team takes a dogmatic approach to a race requiring pragmatic management) and assumed that the thing you heard was at play.

You saw calls that looked wrong in hindsight.

I don't know why I'm bothering - you have clearly already decided what you will see before you see it, and you'll never see anything that doesn't fit.

#1404 trogggy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:24

Edit: I love how Troggy and the usuals make fun of those who observed McLaren favouring Button during the race, saying because it was wet you should ignore what you saw, I then read this tweet:

'Jenson gets first call on strategy in today's race as he's currently ahead in the championship. That's how McLaren make that decision. #f1 - Marc Priestly'

Mac were favouring him. Glad to see that Hamilton will get priority in the next race then.

Watch out for the hundreds of complaints from the paranoid Button fans.
Look out for the suspicion.
The complaints of unfairness.
No doubt every Button fan will be watching closely for the first sign of favouritism.

My arse.

#1405 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:28

My point is that you looked at a chaotic wet race (where the principle would not apply, because no team takes a dogmatic approach to a race requiring pragmatic management) and assumed that the thing you heard was at play.

You saw calls that looked wrong in hindsight.

I don't know why I'm bothering - you have clearly already decided what you will see before you see it, and you'll never see anything that doesn't fit.


The principle would not apply in a wet race, even though it appeared to. I saw calls that looked wrong at the time and asked why is Button being allowed to undercut Lewis at every given opportunity? I then find out it's now their policy. Ignoring the wet race it's an interesting change in policy for them, as I said one that would favour Button more than the policy they've always had before.

No conspiracies, just observing facts, you're filling in the blanks, I'm the one being entirely objective.

#1406 Fox1

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:29

You saw calls that looked wrong in hindsight.

God I HATE that word. A lot of people saw calls that looked wrong while they were being made.

#1407 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:30

Watch out for the hundreds of complaints from the paranoid Button fans.
Look out for the suspicion.
The complaints of unfairness.
No doubt every Button fan will be watching closely for the first sign of favouritism.

My arse.


The Button fans won't do that because they're better than Hamilton fans.

Now you've won leave me alone, I'm not interested in playing a game of one upmanship with you.

#1408 trogggy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:33

The Button fans won't do that because they're better than Hamilton fans.

Now you've won leave me alone, I'm not interested in playing a game of one upmanship with you.

Tell you what then...
Don't write things like 'Edit: I love how Troggy and the usuals make fun of those who observed McLaren...'

Pretty obvious really.

#1409 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:34

I posted what was true.

#1410 trogggy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:36

I posted what was true.

Sure. You're completely objective.

#1411 robefc

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 15:58

For those interested, I emailed Keith from F1 Fanatic about Marc Priestly's tweet and got this response...

Hi Rob,

Thanks for that - I saw that After I wrote the article and am curious as it goes against what I'd heard before from McLaren. having a look...

KC


#1412 Obi Offiah

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 16:00

For those interested, I emailed Keith from F1 Fanatic about Marc Priestly's tweet and got this response...

Hi Rob,

Thanks for that - I saw that After I wrote the article and am curious as it goes against what I'd heard before from McLaren. having a look...

KC

Good job Rob :up:

#1413 Kvothe

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 16:09

For those interested, I emailed Keith from F1 Fanatic about Marc Priestly's tweet and got this response...

Hi Rob,

Thanks for that - I saw that After I wrote the article and am curious as it goes against what I'd heard before from McLaren. having a look...

KC

:up: Yes nice one Robefc.

Peter Windsor however does mention it in this weeks issue of GP Weekly at pg 27 where he states that Lewis will now have priority over pit stop strategy:
http://mag.gpweek.co...=61036#folio=27






#1414 ImDDAA

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 16:33

For those interested, I emailed Keith from F1 Fanatic about Marc Priestly's tweet and got this response...

Hi Rob,

Thanks for that - I saw that After I wrote the article and am curious as it goes against what I'd heard before from McLaren. having a look...

KC


It comes across as a dumb policy, especially at this point of the season and it contradicts their usual approach, but we've been told this by an ex Mac Engineer, not sure what his angle would be to fabricate that piece of info.

#1415 Anomnader

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 18:49

aaaaaaarggghhhhh WHY have a Think Tank when everything is set in stone! to stick to rules like this at this stage of the season is too inflexible, they need to be able to react in miliseconds. Say what you want about Redbull and previously Renault/Benetton(Pat/Flav) they know how to read a race and how to react, no matter how many computers and maths experts they stick in a room they can't beat one fella whos got a knack for it.

Edited by Anomnader, 26 March 2012 - 18:49.


#1416 ForzaGTR

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:29

Lewis has mentioned his 2007 consistency. I think he is trying to emulate that. He may be learning. He has kept his nose out of trouble, avoided stewards and has finished on the podium every race thus far.

His qualifying is electric at the moment, the wins will come and so will a decent shot at the WDC.

#1417 fieraku

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:06

:evil:

So Lewis was (knowingly) screwed in OZ because of some McLaren BS commandment written in stone?Then we were right afterall?

I wish with all my heart McLaren don't win anything for the next 100 years,their nice guys facade is disgusting.All charades.At least at SF and RBR they're open about it.


#1418 LiJu914

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:10

:evil:

So Lewis was (knowingly) screwed in OZ because of some McLaren BS commandment written in stone?Then we were right afterall?

I wish with all my heart McLaren don't win anything for the next 100 years,their nice guys facade is disgusting.All charades.At least at SF and RBR they're open about it.


Huh?

#1419 Lights

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:14

Huh?

Coral hacked fieraku's account.

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#1420 Kvothe

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:16

Coral hacked fieraku's account.

:lol:

#1421 Watkins74

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:19

The leader in WDC points getting first dibs on strategy seems like a fair system to me. I don't see anything underhanded about it. Although I think they should use leading car of the race until about race 10 and then convert to the leader in points.


edited for clarity.

Edited by Watkins74, 27 March 2012 - 12:21.


#1422 currupipi

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:20

It comes across as a dumb policy, especially at this point of the season and it contradicts their usual approach, but we've been told this by an ex Mac Engineer, not sure what his angle would be to fabricate that piece of info.


it sounds weird, i cant imagine them actually having a situation where they are running 2nd and 3rd in a race, with their wdc leader in 3rd and losing a possible win by allowing the guy in 3rd to undercut the guy in 2d, sounds weird

edit, whats seems strange is that they would create a number 1 and number 2 system in the second race of the year this way, if true i see this causing some tension in the team

Edited by currupipi, 27 March 2012 - 12:24.


#1423 fieraku

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:22

Coral hacked fieraku's account.

Nah mate,just tired of the Matrix.

#1424 LiJu914

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:24

it sounds weird, i cant imagine them actually having a situation where they are running 2nd and 3rd in a race, with their wdc leader in 3rd and losing a possible win by allowing the guy in 3rd to undercut the guy in 2d, sounds weird


And it probably won´t happen. But hey...at least one can blame the team afterwards coz Priestley gave an interview.

Edited by LiJu914, 27 March 2012 - 12:25.


#1425 PNSD

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 14:14

F*ck team orders.

Let the drivers come in when they want to.

But have them request it on that same lap they come in, so if Lewis requests a stop first then he gets it. Jenson will just have to be patient. Regardless of positions, the drivers can and should make their own decisions based on information the team gives them. If Jenson is racing for the lead and is 2nd, then Vettel in the lead pits Jenson can then himself work out, he too would need to pit to avoid the undercut. Simples.

Im bored of hearing strategy mistakes from the team blah blah, favouring drivers blah blah. Why not let the drivers take initiative for once. They all sound like puppets when they're in the car.


#1426 robefc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 15:21

Reply from keith/ f1 fanatic below, top part is his response to me asking if i could post here.
Hi Rob,

Sure - I've explained it in a comment here, perhaps you could link to it?

http://www.f1fanatic...#comment-977933

Best regards,

Keith


Hi Rob,

I've checked with McLaren and they've quite unequivocally refuted Marc's claim. That tends to agree with what I've noted on their strategy in the past, but of course you can't take anything for granted.

I'm in contact with Marc as well and will discuss it further with him before considering whether to refer to it on the site - the preview for the next race would seem the logical place. Could prove significant this year if McLaren remain the team to beat.

Thanks again for the tip - with all those Twitter accounts out there I can't always see everything!

Cheers,

KC

Edited by robefc, 27 March 2012 - 15:23.


#1427 Lazy

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 15:32

Conspiracy against Hamilton at McLaren is a FACT.

Just like the old FACTS:

Hamilton will destroy Button FACT.
Button is not in the same league as Hamilton FACT.
Button's tyre preservation skills are a myth FACT. (now moved to the excuse section)
Hamilton is TDG FACT. (now moved to "that was just a joke, omg you didn't take it seriously did you?")
That Button is more consistent than Hamilton is a myth FACT. (now moved to the excuse section)

Same sources, same credibility.



#1428 GlenP

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 15:42

"I checked with McLaren and they said that isn’t how their strategy works – in normal circumstances they give first call to the driver who’s leading the race.

They added they would only give preference to a driver leading the championship if only one of their drivers was in contention at some point later in the season."
___

Which is exactly what most people would consider sensible.

Add-in the fact that wet races must have a lot more contribution from the driver in terms of giving feedback about track condition (in dry races they have reasonably good data and the track will not be radically different to what is anticipated) and no further explanations are necessary. Did Hamilton request tyres in Sepang and get denied? No. It's all just made up crap by the conspiracy enthusiasts.

#1429 TheBunk

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 15:44

Conspiracy against Hamilton at McLaren is a FACT.

Just like the old FACTS:

Hamilton will destroy Button FACT.
Button is not in the same league as Hamilton FACT.
Button's tyre preservation skills are a myth FACT. (now moved to the excuse section)
Hamilton is TDG FACT. (now moved to "that was just a joke, omg you didn't take it seriously did you?")
That Button is more consistent than Hamilton is a myth FACT. (now moved to the excuse section)

Same sources, same credibility.


:up: :lol:

#1430 F1Newbie

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 16:00

Reply from keith/ f1 fanatic below, top part is his response to me asking if i could post here.
Hi Rob,

Sure - I've explained it in a comment here, perhaps you could link to it?

http://www.f1fanatic...#comment-977933

Best regards,

Keith


Hi Rob,

I've checked with McLaren and they've quite unequivocally refuted Marc's claim. That tends to agree with what I've noted on their strategy in the past, but of course you can't take anything for granted.

I'm in contact with Marc as well and will discuss it further with him before considering whether to refer to it on the site - the preview for the next race would seem the logical place. Could prove significant this year if McLaren remain the team to beat.

Thanks again for the tip - with all those Twitter accounts out there I can't always see everything!

Cheers,

KC


Like they would say otherwise. Anyway, plenty of races ahead, let's wait and see... I'm 80% sure they wanted Jenson ahead of Lewis in Malaysia, they tried to undercut Lewis twice. they failed the 1st time, did it the 2nd time but Mr Button crashed :lol:


#1431 GlenP

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 16:03

Like they would say otherwise. Anyway, plenty of races ahead, let's wait and see... I'm 80% sure they wanted Jenson ahead of Lewis in Malaysia, they tried to undercut Lewis twice. they failed the 1st time, did it the 2nd time but Mr Button crashed :lol:

Did
Hamilton
request
tyres
and
get
declined?

Simple question.

#1432 F1Newbie

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 16:07

Did
Hamilton
request
tyres
and
get
declined?

Simple question.


I don't buy that either. last year, in China. Jenson didn't pit when he was planned to but Lewis couldn't pit either because Jenson had to pit 1st. So why Lewis didn't pit in China last year when Jenson declined to pit?


#1433 flyer121

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 16:09

Conspiracy against Hamilton at McLaren is a FACT.

Just like the old FACTS:

Hamilton will destroy Button FACT.
Button is not in the same league as Hamilton FACT.
Button's tyre preservation skills are a myth FACT. (now moved to the excuse section)
Hamilton is TDG FACT. (now moved to "that was just a joke, omg you didn't take it seriously did you?")
That Button is more consistent than Hamilton is a myth FACT. (now moved to the excuse section)

Same sources, same credibility.



No No, Hamilton is the new Mr Consistent ... He is giving up wins to be consistently on podium...

#1434 robefc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 16:14

I don't buy that either. last year, in China. Jenson didn't pit when he was planned to but Lewis couldn't pit either because Jenson had to pit 1st. So why Lewis didn't pit in China last year when Jenson declined to pit?


Because that was a dry race and leader has priority, they won't let the other guy undercut.

It's not hard

#1435 GlenP

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 16:20

Because that was a dry race and leader has priority, they won't let the other guy undercut.

It's not hard

Indeed. It is pretty simple.

Dry race = fairly predictable with a strategy planned which would need a bloody good reason to deviate (both because it would compromise the rest of the race, and because of the undercut).

Wet race = no-one really knows how it will play-out, drivers are asked how their tyres are. If Hamilton didn't get a change of tyres it is because he didn't request them.

#1436 gricey1981

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 16:31

Well conspiracy theories are getting a little intense and we have almost 3 weeks to go til the next race.

Why would Mclaren try and sabotage Lewis again?

Mclaren are exactly the best and brightest in the pit lane . Remember Buttons wheel falling off lat year.

Edited by gricey1981, 27 March 2012 - 16:32.


#1437 ImDDAA

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 17:14

The leader in WDC points getting first dibs on strategy seems like a fair system to me. I don't see anything underhanded about it. Although I think they should use leading car of the race until about race 10 and then convert to the leader in points.


edited for clarity.


Don't think anyone should have a problem with it at the back end of the season if one driver is within a reasonable shout of winning the WDC and the other is out, second race it's just silly. Leading driver in each race should get the shout, you should be trying to win races at this point.

#1438 ImDDAA

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 17:15

Reply from keith/ f1 fanatic below, top part is his response to me asking if i could post here.
Hi Rob,

Sure - I've explained it in a comment here, perhaps you could link to it?

http://www.f1fanatic...#comment-977933

Best regards,

Keith


Hi Rob,

I've checked with McLaren and they've quite unequivocally refuted Marc's claim. That tends to agree with what I've noted on their strategy in the past, but of course you can't take anything for granted.

I'm in contact with Marc as well and will discuss it further with him before considering whether to refer to it on the site - the preview for the next race would seem the logical place. Could prove significant this year if McLaren remain the team to beat.

Thanks again for the tip - with all those Twitter accounts out there I can't always see everything!

Cheers,

KC


Good work.

#1439 inca_roads

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 17:27

I don't buy that either. last year, in China. Jenson didn't pit when he was planned to but Lewis couldn't pit either because Jenson had to pit 1st. So why Lewis didn't pit in China last year when Jenson declined to pit?


I think that was because the team were expecting Jenson to come in up until the moment he passed the pit entry (Whitmarsh - "We thought Jenson was pitting that lap"). As Lewis was right behind him, there was no time for them to call him in. Im not getting on side with the conspiracy stuff, but this one was a unique case - just worth pointing out.

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#1440 peroa

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 17:42

Because that was a dry race and leader has priority, they won't let the other guy undercut.

It's not hard


So, instead of maximizing the teams result they'd rather "sacrifice" one driver in the process, usually the same one.
Because that's exactly what many here have been saying.



#1441 TeamMacca

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 18:06

Watched a bit of the replay on Sky but watched the pitlane option with radio and before Lewis pitted he was asked what he wanted to do and he said its still wet stay out, Jenson was told to box this lap for inters.

The following lap Lewis said getting dry , box this lap to which his pit confirmed - He would of come out well infront of Jenson if he didn't get held up in the pits and this shows their seems to be no favourite and Lewis can indeed make his own decision and infact it would of been a good one

#1442 Lights

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 18:12

Watched a bit of the replay on Sky but watched the pitlane option with radio and before Lewis pitted he was asked what he wanted to do and he said its still wet stay out, Jenson was told to box this lap for inters.

The following lap Lewis said getting dry , box this lap to which his pit confirmed - He would of come out well infront of Jenson if he didn't get held up in the pits and this shows their seems to be no favourite and Lewis can indeed make his own decision and infact it would of been a good one

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? :eek:

You mean the past 10 pages were all for nothing?

#1443 P123

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 18:15

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? :eek:

You mean the past 10 pages were all for nothing?


Only 10 pages? :D

#1444 ImDDAA

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 21:30

Watched a bit of the replay on Sky but watched the pitlane option with radio and before Lewis pitted he was asked what he wanted to do and he said its still wet stay out, Jenson was told to box this lap for inters.

The following lap Lewis said getting dry , box this lap to which his pit confirmed - He would of come out well infront of Jenson if he didn't get held up in the pits and this shows their seems to be no favourite and Lewis can indeed make his own decision and infact it would of been a good one


Lewis was asked but Jenson was told?

This is exactly the kind of information we need to develop this conversation over the season if we're to keep a balanced and accurate view of the facts, kudos.

#1445 Requin

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 22:36

Lewis was asked but Jenson was told?

This is exactly the kind of information we need to develop this conversation over the season if we're to keep a balanced and accurate view of the facts, kudos.


Brought to you by the Sky F1 channel! :lol:

#1446 Watkins74

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 22:40

Lewis was asked but Jenson was told?

This is exactly the kind of information we need to develop this conversation over the season if we're to keep a balanced and accurate view of the facts, kudos.

I don't know if you are aware of this web site that produces a collection of radio messages. McLaren's site doesn't post all the radio transmissions so this might fill in some gaps.

Apologies if you already knew about this site.

http://www.dailymoti...highlights_auto

#1447 GlenP

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:12

Don't think anyone should have a problem with it at the back end of the season if one driver is within a reasonable shout of winning the WDC and the other is out, second race it's just silly. Leading driver in each race should get the shout, you should be trying to win races at this point.

This is exactly what they DO do! The thing about favouring the leader in the WDC at all stages of the season is nonsense. It isn't true.

I see we've had a multi-page rant about the conspiracy, but I very much doubt we'll have a multi-page climb-down from the crazies.

#1448 GlenP

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:14

Watched a bit of the replay on Sky but watched the pitlane option with radio and before Lewis pitted he was asked what he wanted to do and he said its still wet stay out, Jenson was told to box this lap for inters.

The following lap Lewis said getting dry , box this lap to which his pit confirmed - He would of come out well infront of Jenson if he didn't get held up in the pits and this shows their seems to be no favourite and Lewis can indeed make his own decision and infact it would of been a good one

Hey everyone - read this and get real.

The only issue was a slightly sluggish stop for Lewis, which could have happened to either of them. Also, it wasn't helped by overshooting the box marks, if I remember correctly.

No conspiracy, no favouritism, nothing.

#1449 tommyhjortasen

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:11

Lewis could be a contender this year with his new cruise and collect attitude, a game Alonso is playing.

Could it be that Lewis realise that for all agressive drive you must have some luck or be best in the world..

Jenson will be back he is agressive and controlled.

#1450 Burtros

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:29

you dont even need any evidence to know theres no bias in McLaren. Its just is not happening, its only seen by fans who cant get their head round the greater complexities of F1 as a sport - a lot happens in a short space of time around pitstops and its easy to loose track of what is - especially when you are reacted by the perception that the team have just screwed your favourite driver over.

Theres an argument McLaren could be doing a better job with Hamilton, almost certainly I would say - but the reason they dont is NOT because of bias towards Button.