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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1501 GlenP

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 15:11

So you're saying the 10 second lead Ham lost in the first stint to Vet would have no bearing during the race and the consequential SC?
According to you a 2sec lead is better than 10secs right or just as comfortable?

Yeah credibility :stoned:

Nobody knew the sc would come out at that moment. Without the sc at that moment they would have had a comfortable 1-2.

Main reason Ham lost so much time is getting stuck behind the Sauber, which had old tyres on, and was a Sauber.

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#1502 Dunder

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 15:18

Dont be stubborn
You compare Perez to those with inlap or outlap? :drunk:
With normal pitstop Lewis would be ahead of quicker Perez which goes to show you, that to stay longer was not the way to go.
Leiws on wet was indeed about as quick as Button on inters due to a) Lewis is quicker driver b) Button encountered some traffic, make your choice.
The fact is ALL guys pitting straight after SC gained lots of places* with exception of Button who, in case of same pitstop times, would keep second in spite of his not so blistering pace.
*There is no way around this very fact baring you are Iraqis defense minister.


I am being stubborn?

Perez' lap 14 was a 2:04.9xx. There were many cars that were not able to achieve that lap time on lap 15, lap 16 and lap 17 on the intermediates even with the track drying out. Indeed this was a full second faster than Rosberg/Raikkonen were on lap 15 (not an outlap).

Perez and Alonso gained time relative to everyone in the pitstop phase even Rosberg and Raikkonen who, as you rightly point out, were the drivers who gained most places.

It was a marginal decision either way. Those who gained places did so mostly because of slick pitstops rather then having been faster on track.

Edited by Dunder, 28 March 2012 - 15:48.


#1503 ImDDAA

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 15:26

This is exactly what they DO do! The thing about favouring the leader in the WDC at all stages of the season is nonsense. It isn't true.

I see we've had a multi-page rant about the conspiracy, but I very much doubt we'll have a multi-page climb-down from the crazies.


Just to let you know my position Glen, I wrote this a few pages back:

'I have to say I've always found the conspiracy theories laughable but I'm starting to feel less secure in that mindset. So many little details float about, week after week, on their own they are nothing, together they're not much, but there's something interesting to be discussed there. I've thought Whitmarsh prefers Button for a long time but always assumed that it had no tangible effect on how the drivers were treated. I hope I'm right but I'll be paying more attention to that topic this year.'

This is my standpoint - you told me I had already made my mind up but it's actually you that has already decided. I'll concede I was wrong about the pit stop policy (in my initial post I did say that is what we've 'heard', but my language after that was too ambiguous looking back), but it's surprising an ex mac Engineer would lie about something like that, it's seems too daft for him to get it wrong too. What I'll be doing for the rest of the season is keeping an open mind and as I said, none of these small details mean anything in isolation, I still don't believe there is a conspiracy to sabotage Lewis in any way at all I can just admit I don't know the truth on this issue and there are enough little things to make me feel it's worth my time discussing it. My suggesting to you and trogggy who laugh at the tinfoil hatters is to not get involved, you think it's dumb so discuss something you think is worthwhile.

#1504 ImDDAA

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 15:36

Hell, last week you were all saying Hamilton should call his own strategy and hang the team. Now you're saying the team should give him orders and not involve him.

That about perfectly sums up the insanity.


Nope, JJ asked a simple question with that post, you've actually invented that position for him. Try answering the question without making a strawman. For me it's an innocent question that doesn't have to imply anything, I wonder if anyone can answer it? Did we miss any radio?

Also, you earlier said Hamilton didn't want inters, personally I think saying 'it's probably okay for inters' is closer to yes than no but it again comes down to how you want to paint it.

#1505 GlenP

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 15:40

ImDDAA

You are right in so much as I shouldn't bother to get involved. I'm just too tempted by a funny argument!

I don't see why the only possibility is that an ex McLaren engineer is lying. Why can't he be merely mistaken? One of Jenson's conditions in joining was absolute parity and transparency, so I do actually have some confidence that McLaren have changed their ways somewhat. Most people would put JB vs LH as too close to call with any great certainty, so it would surprise me greatly if the team had made that choice before the season has even started properly.

It's all very well to pay attention to things t see if the conspiracies are true, but if you only look for confirmation of that you will tend not to see anything else, so a truly open mind is the only way to go, I agree. Definitely two races, both of them with unpredictable events, are not nearly enough to see any pattern.

#1506 GlenP

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 15:46

Nope, JJ asked a simple question with that post, you've actually invented that position for him. Try answering the question without making a strawman. For me it's an innocent question that doesn't have to imply anything, I wonder if anyone can answer it? Did we miss any radio?

Also, you earlier said Hamilton didn't want inters, personally I think saying 'it's probably okay for inters' is closer to yes than no but it again comes down to how you want to paint it.

If the question you are referring to is why did LH get a question and JB an instruction - obviously I don't know.

The reason I answered in that manner was that it is immaterial for this discussion why one got a question and one an instruction, because if exactly the reverse happened (or they both got instructions or they both got questions) the more rabid fans would still find a conspiracy in it, or certainly some blame for the team. I backed up that pov my showing that the same people had called for the opposite (ie. for LH to be given more say-so) only a week previously.

#1507 jjcale

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 15:52

If the question you are referring to is why did LH get a question and JB an instruction - obviously I don't know.

The reason I answered in that manner was that it is immaterial for this discussion why one got a question and one an instruction, because if exactly the reverse happened (or they both got instructions or they both got questions) the more rabid fans would still find a conspiracy in it, or certainly some blame for the team. I backed up that pov my showing that the same people had called for the opposite (ie. for LH to be given more say-so) only a week previously.



Except that I was not one of those people...

#1508 ImDDAA

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 15:54

ImDDAA

You are right in so much as I shouldn't bother to get involved. I'm just too tempted by a funny argument!

I don't see why the only possibility is that an ex McLaren engineer is lying. Why can't he be merely mistaken? One of Jenson's conditions in joining was absolute parity and transparency, so I do actually have some confidence that McLaren have changed their ways somewhat. Most people would put JB vs LH as too close to call with any great certainty, so it would surprise me greatly if the team had made that choice before the season has even started properly.

It's all very well to pay attention to things t see if the conspiracies are true, but if you only look for confirmation of that you will tend not to see anything else, so a truly open mind is the only way to go, I agree. Definitely two races, both of them with unpredictable events, are not nearly enough to see any pattern.


I didn't mean to say that lying was the only option, but that him getting it wrong was too daft. I'm not only looking for confirmation, I'm just not brushing aside every little incident, I have no investment in the conspiracies as I've always thought they were laughable and am all too aware of how the people peddling them are regarded, I'm not exactly going to gain any respect by discussing these things openly as most people will bunch me in with a group of fairly wacky posters.


#1509 cheapracer

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:01

The team had a comfortable 1-2 which they only lost to very bad luck with the sc timing.


You have no way of knowing alternate futures or you would be enjoying Lotto winnings rather than posting here.

SC periods have given many teams troubles and joys, swings and roundabouts.


#1510 GlenP

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:05

Except that I was not one of those people...

Sorry JJ. The whole conspiracy is so silly I failed to take a care with who I was responding to.

#1511 GlenP

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:05

You have no way of knowing alternate futures or you would be enjoying Lotto winnings rather than posting here.

SC periods have given many teams troubles and joys, swings and roundabouts.

Yes.

And?

#1512 jjcale

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:13

Sorry JJ. The whole conspiracy is so silly I failed to take a care with who I was responding to.


IMO Its too early to form an opinion for 2012... if you rule it out and think its "silly" at this stage you are probably basing your views on assumptions as much as anyone else is.

The only thing I know is that there is (and has been for some time) tension between LH and Whitmarsh... and that Whitmarsh prefers Button... whether and how that translates into on track performance, I am agnostic.... I also dont expect LH to resign for Macca and will go to Merc (but that's a hunch i've had since 2009).

Additionally, I also expect that with the winner between LH and JB likely to be the WDC this year, there will be a major bust up at Macca between the drivers at some point in the year.

To the extent that it matters... that's my position on the "conspiracy".... for the time being at any rate.

#1513 GlenP

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:18

Good point as far as regarding it as silly. But the same logic would require me to not rule out all sorts of other stuff.

I do agree that if Hamilton's contract were sorted out it would make for an easier situation.

#1514 maverick69

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:22

The only thing I know is that there is (and has been for some time) tension between LH and Whitmarsh... and that Whitmarsh prefers Button... whether and how that translates into on track performance, I am agnostic.... I also dont expect LH to resign for Macca and will go to Merc (but that's a hunch i've had since 2009).


That's been pretty clear for a long time.

It's almost as if LH is Ron's boy, and JB is Whitmarsh's....... and you've got a bit of "Football Dad" aggro going on.

#1515 fieraku

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:49

Nobody knew the sc would come out at that moment. Without the sc at that moment they would have had a comfortable 1-2.

Main reason Ham lost so much time is getting stuck behind the Sauber, which had old tyres on, and was a Sauber.

And if they hadn't initially lost him those 7-8 seconds he'd be infront of Perez and Vettel as well,SC or not! Which is the point you're conveniently ignoring.


#1516 abc

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:54

I am being stubborn?

Perez' lap 14 was a 2:04.9xx. There were many cars that were not able to achieve that lap time on lap 15, lap 16 and lap 17 on the intermediates even with the track drying out. Indeed this was a full second faster than Rosberg/Raikkonen were on lap 15 (not an outlap).

Perez and Alonso gained time relative to everyone in the pitstop phase even Rosberg and Raikkonen who, as you rightly point out, were the drivers who gained most places.

It was a marginal decision either way. Those who gained places did so mostly because of slick pitstops rather then having been faster on track.

No and no
You pick up Perez, who was flying. Others who didnt pit were doing 2:08,8 (Vettel) or were in 2:10s. Compare it to slow Rosberg, who in traffic managed to be just 1 sec. slower than Perez or Kimi who was slowed down by Rosberg and than by Vettel coming out of pit. See Kimi and Vettel basically at the same level!
And Vettels pitstop was second quicker tham Kimis! BTW all guys pitting first had average pitstops and still gained about 5 positions.

Alonso and Perez were initially 8 and 10 positions ahead of Kimi, so in spite they rocket pace, they didnt really gain anything.


#1517 Dunder

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 17:26

No and no
You pick up Perez, who was flying. Others who didnt pit were doing 2:08,8 (Vettel) or were in 2:10s. Compare it to slow Rosberg, who in traffic managed to be just 1 sec. slower than Perez or Kimi who was slowed down by Rosberg and than by Vettel coming out of pit. See Kimi and Vettel basically at the same level!
And Vettels pitstop was second quicker tham Kimis! BTW all guys pitting first had average pitstops and still gained about 5 positions.

Alonso and Perez were initially 8 and 10 positions ahead of Kimi, so in spite they rocket pace, they didnt really gain anything.


What traffic?
Rosberg had only Button ahead, all of the other cars who stayed out were 15+ seconds up the road. The last car not to pit on lap 13 was Pic who crossed the line less than 12 seconds behind Hamilton.

Alonso and Perez did not lose anything so the argument that they were on the wrong tyre (especially in the case of Perez who did two additional laps on the full wet) is plainly nonsense.
The same is true of Hamilton who did not lose any time (on the contrary) to the "flying" Perez on lap 14.

I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated since you acknowledged it yourself already but Hamilton would have retained the lead if not for the 4-5 second delay at the pitstop.
He would not have lost out to Button, he would not have lost out to Alonso and he would almost certainly have been ahead of Perez too.



#1518 robefc

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 17:56

So, instead of maximizing the teams result they'd rather "sacrifice" one driver in the process, usually the same one.
Because that's exactly what many here have been saying.


It's not really what many here have been saying, most people are spouting off about them disadvantaging hamilton because MW doesn't like him.

But you have a decent point, it will usually be button being sacrificed if lewis continues to out qualify him!

More seriously, it does seem to me that they are being completely fair to the drivers using this policy to the potential detriment of the team's position, unless you consider that not allowing the lead driver the advantage may create more tension and also more potential incidents on track.



#1519 ImDDAA

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 18:26

But the same logic would require me to not rule out all sorts of other stuff.


This is true, but there is a semi-credible angle on this conspiracy stuff. Whitmarsh appears to prefer Button, for whatever reason - maybe they have more in common or Jenson is more grown up than Lewis etc, but they appear to have a better relationship. Whitmarsh also puts a portion of his reputation on the line when he brings a new driver in, Button was the man he chose and brought to the team, with a lot of criticism at the time. Whitmarsh has invested himself and his team in Button in those regards. To me, all the above is true - the question is whether, consciously or subsconciously this has any effect on how the drivers are treated. I think it's absurd to suggest they actively sabotage Lewis, I don't see any evidence for that, I also don't see anything significant to suggest they necessarily favor Button disproportionately, but there is a long string of tiny, insignificant incidents and events and snippets that form an interesting pattern. They probably mean nothing, but as I've repeated a few times, I think there is something interesting to discuss there and I'll be paying attention this season.

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#1520 TheBunk

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 18:29

The only thing I know is that there is (and has been for some time) tension between LH and Whitmarsh.


No you dont know. You only speculate on the few problems with pitstops that there is tension.

For the others, its clear that Withmarsh loves Hamilton to bits, praises him many, many times and saves him whenever he has a below par race, and also is not too big to admit the team made errors. In fact, last weekend all he did was point to that.

Edited by TheBunk, 28 March 2012 - 18:30.


#1521 jjcale

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 18:36

No you dont know. You only speculate on the few problems with pitstops that there is tension.

For the others, its clear that Withmarsh loves Hamilton to bits, praises him many, many times and saves him whenever he has a below par race, and also is not too big to admit the team made errors. In fact, last weekend all he did was point to that.


Actually, I do know.... please speak for yourself and not for me.

#1522 TheBunk

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 18:48

Actually, I do know.... please speak for yourself and not for me.



No you dont for a fact. You only convinced yourself with your vague and bizarre paranoia constructions.

These are the facts:

"Jonathan Neale interview on the flying lap:

Avoided the question about why Lewis in particular was slow when he's always been fast in wet conditions, reiterating that it was the same for all of the top ten and that whilst Lewis was catching those in front, he was not being caught from those behind.

""

See, Mclaren do everything to shield any criticism on Hamilton. They protect him and twist or ignore any obvious mistakes or errors hes made, sometimes to the laughter of the journalists. So unless you have some real tangible evidence Withmarsh/Mclaren dont like Hamilton, or have 'tension', then your just speculating.

And its been going on for some time now that the more fanatic Hamilton fans point to anything outside him to explain the lack of real great drives coming from him, the latest this Mclaren-is-biased-towards-button-nonsense. Its been a while since he shown a real great fighting race after all. Hamilton vs Webber at the Korean GP?

Ive no doubt Hamilton will put in a good race one of these days. I just wonder what your excuse will be then.


#1523 spacekid

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 18:56

I'm late to this party - and it looks like Ive missed a lot of stuff about who chooses pitstops. I'm sure everything is fair and even within the team with that respect.

Given that in my opinion Jenson and Lewis will end up being the two contendors for this years title, this is going to be a very interesting fight. Right now I put them at 1-1. Hamilton wasn't bad on Sunday but hardly shined, Button found that once in the traffic races like that are a ***ch. Shame to see him make a mistake, he's usually incredibly solid, but these things happen.

#1524 jjcale

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 19:05

No you dont for a fact. You only convinced yourself with your vague and bizarre paranoia constructions.

These are the facts:

"Jonathan Neale interview on the flying lap:

Avoided the question about why Lewis in particular was slow when he's always been fast in wet conditions, reiterating that it was the same for all of the top ten and that whilst Lewis was catching those in front, he was not being caught from those behind.

""

See, Mclaren do everything to shield any criticism on Hamilton. They protect him and twist or ignore any obvious mistakes or errors hes made, sometimes to the laughter of the journalists. So unless you have some real tangible evidence Withmarsh/Mclaren dont like Hamilton, or have 'tension', then your just speculating.

And its been going on for some time now that the more fanatic Hamilton fans point to anything outside him to explain the lack of real great drives coming from him, the latest this Mclaren-is-biased-towards-button-nonsense. Its been a while since he shown a real great fighting race after all. Hamilton vs Webber at the Korean GP?

Ive no doubt Hamilton will put in a good race one of these days. I just wonder what your excuse will be then.


Actually I do know .... stop telling me what I know from what I dont know... and assuming you know the source of what I have to say... I told people here about this two seasons ago when all was going great for LH and he was leading the championship. Other people who also know indepently of me have also confirmed it.

I am not going to take you off ignore again just to repeat myself... if you dont believe me that is your problem...

Also, I said Whitmarsh not McLaren.

#1525 lewymp4

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 19:20

And that's why he doesn't need an indecisive RE as well.It almost sounds like:

RE:What do you think?

LH:I dunno,how about you?

RE:Well,others stopped,maybe we should too.

LH:I think so.

three laps and 12 seconds lost later.........

RE:Box this lap.

LH:Confirmed.

:stoned:


:up: I think that you have a very good point.

Jenson's team radio on lap (39) said, " OK Jenson some cars switched to slick tires, and they are quick, we think it's ready for slicks, and then Jenson entered the pits.

Lewis's team radio on lap (41...41) said, " Alonso has pitted for dries as the other car behind, and box this lap...okay. ".........okay?????

#1526 robefc

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 19:51

:up: I think that you have a very good point.

Jenson's team radio on lap (39) said, " OK Jenson some cars switched to slick tires, and they are quick, we think it's ready for slicks, and then Jenson entered the pits.

Lewis's team radio on lap (41...41) said, " Alonso has pitted for dries as the other car behind, and box this lap...okay. ".........okay?????


Why have you chosen a quote from button's engineer where he merely tells button what he thinks and a quote from lewis's engineer where he tells lewis to pit...to illustrate that it's lewis's engineer who's indecisive?

#1527 robefc

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 19:54

Actually I do know .... stop telling me what I know from what I dont know... and assuming you know the source of what I have to say... I told people here about this two seasons ago when all was going great for LH and he was leading the championship. Other people who also know indepently of me have also confirmed it.

I am not going to take you off ignore again just to repeat myself... if you dont believe me that is your problem...

Also, I said Whitmarsh not McLaren.


2 years is a long time ago, anymore details on how you know and what you know? Same for the others that know independently of you?

I met a friend of MWs recently but unfortunately it was in a business context so whilst I got him onto the subject within about 2 mins of meeting him I couldn't delve too much (beyond learning that the MTC is awesome as is the MP12 and Ron Dennis is strange..not much new info there!)

#1528 jjcale

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 20:09

2 years is a long time ago, anymore details on how you know and what you know? Same for the others that know independently of you?

I met a friend of MWs recently but unfortunately it was in a business context so whilst I got him onto the subject within about 2 mins of meeting him I couldn't delve too much (beyond learning that the MTC is awesome as is the MP12 and Ron Dennis is strange..not much new info there!)



I know people in the F1 media, people who work for F1 teams and people outside F1 who know LH... dont think I can say more than that. (I hope this does not turn out like when I said on another forum in Dec 08 that Honda would be saved and they would have a great car... and I got attacked by Honda fans of all people cause I would not tell them exactly how I knew that)... ya know what, if people think I'm spouting off - I can live with that.... I dont know why I rose to that guy's bait.

Anyway... I am surprised that this is still controversial TBH.

Edited by jjcale, 28 March 2012 - 20:10.


#1529 maverick69

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 20:20

I know people in the F1 media, people who work for F1 teams and people outside F1 who know LH... dont think I can say more than that. (I hope this does not turn out like when I said on another forum in Dec 08 that Honda would be saved and they would have a great car... and I got attacked by Honda fans of all people cause I would not tell them exactly how I knew that)... ya know what, if people think I'm spouting off - I can live with that.... I dont know why I rose to that guy's bait.

Anyway... I am surprised that this is still controversial TBH.


Lol. The good old PF1 days!

#1530 robefc

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 20:25

I know people in the F1 media, people who work for F1 teams and people outside F1 who know LH... dont think I can say more than that. (I hope this does not turn out like when I said on another forum in Dec 08 that Honda would be saved and they would have a great car... and I got attacked by Honda fans of all people cause I would not tell them exactly how I knew that)... ya know what, if people think I'm spouting off - I can live with that.... I dont know why I rose to that guy's bait.

Anyway... I am surprised that this is still controversial TBH.


I hope you've taken advantage of all this, why aren't you best mates with Lewis? :p

I'm not doubting your credibility but a bit more background on what you're actually saying would be nice, tension rose between lewis and MW in 2010 because...etc

#1531 zack1994

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 21:00

IMO Its too early to form an opinion for 2012... if you rule it out and think its "silly" at this stage you are probably basing your views on assumptions as much as anyone else is.

The only thing I know is that there is (and has been for some time) tension between LH and Whitmarsh
... and that Whitmarsh prefers Button... whether and how that translates into on track performance, I am agnostic.... I also dont expect LH to resign for Macca and will go to Merc (but that's a hunch i've had since 2009).

Additionally, I also expect that with the winner between LH and JB likely to be the WDC this year, there will be a major bust up at Macca between the drivers at some point in the year.

To the extent that it matters... that's my position on the "conspiracy".... for the time being at any rate.

Really? I just dont see it.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Laughing and joking
Posted Image
showing some care and affection
:confused:

Edited by zack1994, 28 March 2012 - 21:01.


#1532 micktosin

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:39

Really? I just dont see it.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Laughing and joking
Posted Image
showing some care and affection
:confused:

Sorry few pictures are not reflective of their Relationship. Things might have changed between those times and now, as those pictures were taken in 07/08 (if i'm not wrong).

#1533 moorsey

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:53

Sorry few pictures are not reflective of their Relationship. Things might have changed between those times and now, as those pictures were taken in 07/08 (if i'm not wrong).


I agree and that bottom one doesn't look too much like two mates having a friendly chat.

#1534 Lazy

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:20

If Lewis is now as unpopular at McLaren as ppl suggest, you have to wonder how he fell from his exalted position as Goldenboy. I think some of his petulant messages on the radio and to the media last year could be a clue.
You can behave like that and get away with it if you are a stellar driver, but his performance since the 2nd half of 2007 just haven't been stellar. His outbursts last year would have got most drivers sacked and no doubt have turned people in the team against him.
He now seems to be trying to mend fences but Jenson outperforming him last year has shown the team that they don't need him like they used to and they are wondering if he is worth the grief(and Horner by the looks of it).

#1535 fed up

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:25

Sorry few pictures are not reflective of their Relationship. Things might have changed between those times and now, as those pictures were taken in 07/08 (if i'm not wrong).


They were taken last year - towards the end of the season when Lewis was having that sulk after splitting up with Nicole

#1536 bauss

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:50

If Lewis is now as unpopular at McLaren as ppl suggest, you have to wonder how he fell from his exalted position as Goldenboy. I think some of his petulant messages on the radio and to the media last year could be a clue.
You can behave like that and get away with it if you are a stellar driver, but his performance since the 2nd half of 2007 just haven't been stellar. His outbursts last year would have got most drivers sacked and no doubt have turned people in the team against him.
He now seems to be trying to mend fences but Jenson outperforming him last year has shown the team that they don't need him like they used to and they are wondering if he is worth the grief(and Horner by the looks of it).



:lol: :lol:

#1537 jrg19

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:52

Sorry few pictures are not reflective of their Relationship. Things might have changed between those times and now, as those pictures were taken in 07/08 (if i'm not wrong).


Two are from last year and one from this year.

So 11/12

#1538 Lazy

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:16

:lol: :lol:


2008? I think Jenson would have got that job done with a lot less fuss.

2009, won a couple of races when the car was the fastest.

2010 some strong races and some bad mistakes.

2011?

#1539 zack1994

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:23

Sorry few pictures are not reflective of their Relationship. Things might have changed between those times and now, as those pictures were taken in 07/08 (if i'm not wrong).

Nope your wrong 2011 and 2012 pictures.
You see what you want too see.

Edited by zack1994, 29 March 2012 - 09:24.


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#1540 Sinceref189

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:48

Really? I just dont see it.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Laughing and joking
Posted Image
showing some care and affection
:confused:

The top one is 2011 because of the caps they had that year (black rim)
The second 2012 with the new white and gray t-shirts
The third is either 2011 or 2012 because of the Pirelli sign he's leaning against EDIT - its 2011 because of the black rim cap that guys holding :up:

Edited by Sinceref189, 29 March 2012 - 09:50.


#1541 skyfolker

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:44

The top one is 2011 because of the caps they had that year (black rim)
The second 2012 with the new white and gray t-shirts
The third is either 2011 or 2012 because of the Pirelli sign he's leaning against EDIT - its 2011 because of the black rim cap that guys holding :up:

AFAIK it's from Korean GP 2011.

#1542 TheBunk

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:45

Really? I just dont see it.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Laughing and joking
Posted Image
showing some care and affection
:confused:


Right, you realise now youve also been put on his ignore list, just like all the other facts pointing towards the contrary of his believes ;)

:up:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh defends 'brilliant' Lewis Hamilton

http://www.telegraph...s-Hamilton.html

Whitmarsh defends Hamilton's crash record

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/57732.html

Martin Whitmarsh defends Lewis Hamilton amid criticism

http://www.independe...sm-2361184.html

Whitmarsh defends Hamilton weave

http://www.totalf1.c...Formula 1 News)

McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh believes that Lewis Hamilton could become F1's greatest ever driver

http://www.crash.net..._best_ever.html




It doesnt sound like there is tension between Hamilton and Whitmarsh in these articles to me, or that hes biased towards Jenson.

Edited by TheBunk, 29 March 2012 - 10:46.


#1543 zack1994

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:55

Right, you realise now youve also been put on his ignore list, just like all the other facts pointing towards the contrary of his believes ;)

:up:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh defends 'brilliant' Lewis Hamilton

http://www.telegraph...s-Hamilton.html

Whitmarsh defends Hamilton's crash record

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/57732.html

Martin Whitmarsh defends Lewis Hamilton amid criticism

http://www.independe...sm-2361184.html

Whitmarsh defends Hamilton weave

http://www.totalf1.c...Formula 1 News)

McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh believes that Lewis Hamilton could become F1's greatest ever driver

http://www.crash.net..._best_ever.html




It doesnt sound like there is tension between Hamilton and Whitmarsh in these articles to me, or that hes biased towards Jenson.

:up:

#1544 ForzaGTR

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:26

Wait some people are actually denying there is an issue between Lewis and MW and that MW has a man crush on Jenson? It's clear as day. The only thing that isn't clear is has this issue affected team strategies.

There is no evidence to suggest Jenson is getting more support in races. But it is clear as day that MW likes Button more. I don't really care about that unless it affects races, which I don't think it does.

#1545 Burtros

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:17

Actually I do know .... stop telling me what I know from what I dont know... and assuming you know the source of what I have to say... I told people here about this two seasons ago when all was going great for LH and he was leading the championship. Other people who also know indepently of me have also confirmed it.

I am not going to take you off ignore again just to repeat myself... if you dont believe me that is your problem...

Also, I said Whitmarsh not McLaren.


So, you still know nothing. You are at the mercy of the way the person who told you about it wants you to see it, you dont know if the tensions have gone or got worse even. You dont know if it was a long term tension between them over one issue or lots. For all you know it could be all over now? Yes?

PS. if you cant proove your sources I always keep what I know to myself. I wouldnt go spouting about something I knew if I couldnt proove it as without proof, its wortless. But then you knew that?

#1546 Burtros

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:34

Sorry few pictures are not reflective of their Relationship. Things might have changed between those times and now, as those pictures were taken in 07/08 (if i'm not wrong).


How about you offer some proof that there is a broken relationship then, rather than incorrectly rubbishing those who say there isnt a probelm?

#1547 Burtros

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:35

Wait some people are actually denying there is an issue between Lewis and MW and that MW has a man crush on Jenson? It's clear as day. The only thing that isn't clear is has this issue affected team strategies.

There is no evidence to suggest Jenson is getting more support in races. But it is clear as day that MW likes Button more. I don't really care about that unless it affects races, which I don't think it does.


no its not clear as day.

Theres a hint that maybe MW prefers JB - but then if Hamilton is anything like his fans, I can understand why hes not so popular.....

#1548 jjcale

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 13:43

So, you still know nothing. You are at the mercy of the way the person who told you about it wants you to see it, you dont know if the tensions have gone or got worse even. You dont know if it was a long term tension between them over one issue or lots. For all you know it could be all over now? Yes?

PS. if you cant proove your sources I always keep what I know to myself. I wouldnt go spouting about something I knew if I couldnt proove it as without proof, its wortless. But then you knew that?


Yes you are right.... & must not post when annoyed.

Edited by jjcale, 29 March 2012 - 13:46.


#1549 inca_roads

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 16:54

2009, won a couple of races when the car was the fastest.


Kovalainen's results don't suggest it was.

#1550 as65p

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 17:00

Kovalainen's results don't suggest it was.


Kovalainen's career doesn't suggest he's a yardstick for a top driver