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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1551 P123

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 17:14

Kovalainen's career doesn't suggest he's a yardstick for a top driver


Hs's not really had a long enough career to judge that. He did defeat Fisi in his rookie season, and on balance was faster than Trulli. Not a terrible record for any F1 driver.  ;)

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#1552 micktosin

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 17:33

How about you offer some proof that there is a broken relationship then, rather than incorrectly rubbishing those who say there isnt a probelm?

I never said there was, but using a few pictures to prove otherwise doesn't make sense. From my observatuion, Button does seem to be the 'golden boy' in Mclaren at the moment.

Edit for typo.

Edited by micktosin, 29 March 2012 - 17:34.


#1553 gricey1981

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 17:38

Kovalainen's career doesn't suggest he's a yardstick for a top driver


Beating the current wdc in the same car twice does though.

#1554 P123

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 17:43

I never said there was, but using a few pictures to prove otherwise doesn't make sense. From my observatuion, Button does seem to be the 'golden boy' in Mclaren at the moment.

Edit for typo.


It would be understandable from McLaren's point of view- JB has just signed a long term deal on the back of delivering an excellent season last year. LH had a difficult season last year, caused his team a fair bit of angst and is not secured to them for the long term.

#1555 Tauhid

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 18:05

It would be understandable from McLaren's point of view- JB has just signed a long term deal on the back of delivering an excellent season last year. LH had a difficult season last year, caused his team a fair bit of angst and is not secured to them for the long term.


Hmm, lets see whether Jenson brings home a WDC this year or better yet half of the sponsors Lewis attracts. And how about the media coverage McLaren gets. For sure, they have brought out a big talent and massive credit to Mr. Dennis for securing Lewis at McLaren. But besides the late Senna, I don't see anyone close to Lewis in terms of talent, popularity and media frenzy. Sometimes, that's what many teams are looking for. You and I know it that its good for both parties to extend Lewis' contract, but yeah Jenson truly did beat Lewis last year, but let's be honest Lewis had a disastrous year last time around.

Being the second highest paid driver always brings a lot of baggage for the team especially. McLaren don't really have Ferrari type budget, so its better for both to wait till the last few races of the season to decide on a contract. I honestly do think the team has turned mostly in Jenson's favour. Pitstops, strategies and interviews won't lie. Or maybe that's what we are being fooled into. Either way, I think its more damaging for McLaren to feed him off to let's say a dangerous rival such as Red Bull, Merc or Ferrari come next season. He is a young man and can take risks. We are yet to see him in a low tier team so maybe that will be a blessing in disguise for Lewis' career to move onto a much smaller team than McLaren like Lotus-Renault. It did wonders to Alonso. I however doubt Hamilton will win a WDC or renew his contract under MW's reign.

Edited by Tauhid, 29 March 2012 - 18:06.


#1556 inca_roads

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 18:26

Kovalainen's career doesn't suggest he's a yardstick for a top driver


He doesn't have to be. He's still shown enough to suggest he could do better than 5th-7th if he had the fastest car on the grid.

#1557 Watkins74

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 18:45

Yes you are right.... & must not post when annoyed.

For what it's worth your word was good with me. Your history as a open-minded and fair poster was all the proof I needed. If you ever get some inside info and feel like sharing, feel free to PM it to me if you want to avoid the grief.

#1558 zack1994

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 18:46

I never said there was, but using a few pictures to prove otherwise doesn't make sense. From my observatuion, Button does seem to be the 'golden boy' in Mclaren at the moment.

Edit for typo.

If martin had to choose who to go to the pub with i know it would be jenson, him and jenson are similar just like lewis is similar to ron.
But that doesn't mean there's tension between lewis and martin.
The pictures don't really support the idea that there's tension do they.

#1559 robefc

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 19:09

So, you still know nothing. You are at the mercy of the way the person who told you about it wants you to see it, you dont know if the tensions have gone or got worse even. You dont know if it was a long term tension between them over one issue or lots. For all you know it could be all over now? Yes?

PS. if you cant proove your sources I always keep what I know to myself. I wouldnt go spouting about something I knew if I couldnt proove it as without proof, its wortless. But then you knew that?


Great, lets discourage anyone from posting anything on here unless they have a sworn statement from whoever told them.

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#1560 Gridfire

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 19:10

If Lewis has gone from being the McLaren golden-boy from his 2007-2009 seasons, to being unpopular in his own team following Button's signing, who's fault is it really? I really don't think it is actually the case, or at least not as bad as some of you are making out, but if it is...

Can you blame a man - Button in this case - for being more popular and a better fit in a team than another man? I remember last year some of you lot were criticising Jenson's 'underhand tactic' of taking his engineers out for a meal thus unfairly biasing the team towards him. Being nice to your team and becoming more popular than your rival driver is hardly an underhanded tactic, it's just the consequence of a more gregarious, and perhaps less petulant personality. Why doesn't Lewis also treat the relatively lowly paid engineers to a night out or two? I don't actually have any information to say that he does or doesn't, but I do know that Button has and does quite regularly.

#1561 micktosin

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 21:40

If martin had to choose who to go to the pub with i know it would be jenson, him and jenson are similar just like lewis is similar to ron.
But that doesn't mean there's tension between lewis and martin.
The pictures don't really support the idea that there's tension do they.

Fair enough. :up:

#1562 Burtros

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:32

Hmm, lets see whether Jenson brings home a WDC this year or better yet half of the sponsors Lewis attracts. And how about the media coverage McLaren gets. For sure, they have brought out a big talent and massive credit to Mr. Dennis for securing Lewis at McLaren. But besides the late Senna, I don't see anyone close to Lewis in terms of talent, popularity and media frenzy. Sometimes, that's what many teams are looking for. You and I know it that its good for both parties to extend Lewis' contract, but yeah Jenson truly did beat Lewis last year, but let's be honest Lewis had a disastrous year last time around.

Being the second highest paid driver always brings a lot of baggage for the team especially. McLaren don't really have Ferrari type budget, so its better for both to wait till the last few races of the season to decide on a contract. I honestly do think the team has turned mostly in Jenson's favour. Pitstops, strategies and interviews won't lie. Or maybe that's what we are being fooled into. Either way, I think its more damaging for McLaren to feed him off to let's say a dangerous rival such as Red Bull, Merc or Ferrari come next season. He is a young man and can take risks. We are yet to see him in a low tier team so maybe that will be a blessing in disguise for Lewis' career to move onto a much smaller team than McLaren like Lotus-Renault. It did wonders to Alonso. I however doubt Hamilton will win a WDC or renew his contract under MW's reign.


I would reply in more detail but another serious attempt to compare Hamilton and Senna has left vomit all over my laptop which I need to clear up.

And your very last line, you'll be prooved worng inside 6 months when he signs up for at least another year.

#1563 BillBald

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:49

:up: I think that you have a very good point.

Jenson's team radio on lap (39) said, " OK Jenson some cars switched to slick tires, and they are quick, we think it's ready for slicks, and then Jenson entered the pits.

Lewis's team radio on lap (41...41) said, " Alonso has pitted for dries as the other car behind, and box this lap...okay. ".........okay?????


Actually it was Jenson who was hurt more by the team's delay in switching to slicks, he ended up behind Ricciardo and Rosberg. If he'd pitted earlier, he would have had a nice empty track in front of him.

Lewis' side of the garage didn't need to respond so quickly.



#1564 GlenP

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 12:13

They had radically different agendas and needs by that time too - Jenson had nothing left to lose, whereas Lewis was sitting on very good points.

#1565 Rinehart

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 13:22

From what I know (and its pointless telling you from where) its not a case of MW and LH falling out, its simply a case of in the post RD era, that MW has worked hard to foster an environment of equality and togetherness in his own style. That in itself means that the RD-LH axis no longer prevails - I suspect that is probably the issue here. Meanwhile JB is known to have bonded exceptionally well with the team and whilst LH has a very strong bond too, he has also displayed moments of arrogance which have not gone down well with everyone. These are known facts.

Since this thread is starting to sound more like an x-factor popularity contest than an F1 thread, can anybody actually substantiate their fixation with the idea that MW "has a problem with LH" (as yet another reason to explain Lewis performance) with something other than an entirely excitable "look its obvious, I can read into this statement or that photo that its blatantly the case you moron".

Save your time. You can't.

#1566 Rinehart

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 13:30

I think its impressive that Lewis is taking a more calculated approach to his campaign, and ironic that is fine with his many fans since the popular reason for his support has been his racer style... I see that goes out of the window as long as he's winning...

Also to note that although Button had a nightmare race in Malaysia, had he not made that mistake, he has got himself ahead of Lewis for the 2nd race running and would almost certainly have beaten him again... Jenson seems to have serious race pace this season, if Lewis can keep control of himself I think this is going to be extremely tight over the course of the season.

Yup, its going to come down to the minds over the season. Jenson has thrown away 15 points with a rash move, how many points will he throw away over the season? How many points will Lewis throw away. Retiring/not scoring from podium points paying positions is major.

#1567 bauss

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 13:51

I think its impressive that Lewis is taking a more calculated approach to his campaign, and ironic that is fine with his many fans since the popular reason for his support has been his racer style... I see that goes out of the window as long as he's winning...

Also to note that although Button had a nightmare race in Malaysia, had he not made that mistake, he has got himself ahead of Lewis for the 2nd race running and would almost certainly have beaten him again... Jenson seems to have serious race pace this season, if Lewis can keep control of himself I think this is going to be extremely tight over the course of the season.

Yup, its going to come down to the minds over the season. Jenson has thrown away 15 points with a rash move, how many points will he throw away over the season? How many points will Lewis throw away. Retiring/not scoring from podium points paying positions is major.


eh... really? you mean same Jenson that had to make a 2nd stop for inters?

The only reason he was ahead of Lewis by the way was Mclaren strategy and pitstops shafting Lewis once again, not exactly by merit or superior lappage.... and the way the race played out suggest he would have struggled to stay ahead (his overall laptimes barring pitstops were slower...and from radio messages and so, he was pushing hard all the way).

In any case, this season should be fairly close btw the two, as a Lewis fan...I still need to see a race this year that assures me he has gotten on top of the car and tires in terms of setting it up optimally for the race. If his track record is anything to go by, this will eventually happen and his race pace will be back...even if its not the ballsout kind (due to tires). He does need it sooner than later though.

But what I sense is, his focus is very much back on top either due to a bad 2011 or a WDC capable looking car or most likely a combination of both.

IMO, a focused Lewis is probably the most robust driver on the grid.... in terms of being able to take external hits (bad pitstops, strategy etc) in a race weekend yet come away with good points. Its usually when the issue is self inflicted that he leaves with little or nothing.

People talked about how LH would deal with a JB that wont go away, the other question would probably need to be asked this season....(when will JB's cool facade evaporate?)

I sense it is back to 2007 mentality for LH, except he is a quicker and more experienced driver now.

The tires and regs may favor JB, but he will do very well to keep it tight til the end.

Edited by bauss, 04 April 2012 - 13:55.


#1568 Rinehart

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 14:14

The tires and regs may favor JB, but he will do very well to keep it tight til the end.



For a start if he hadn't hit the HRT he wouldn't have needed to stop. Secondly the set he put on were knackered by the circumstances.

Grand, yet another comment that infers all things being equal, Lewis is actually a lot better its just that he's not able to show it in F1... :drunk:
Based on the last few years, and the trend, that is evidently not the case.
Outside of this thread, the consensus is pretty evenly split between the two of them, unsurprisingly.

#1569 jjcale

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 14:19

I think its impressive that Lewis is taking a more calculated approach to his campaign, and ironic that is fine with his many fans since the popular reason for his support has been his racer style... I see that goes out of the window as long as he's winning...

....


That does not apply to all of us...

#1570 Kvothe

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 14:28


For a start if he hadn't hit the HRT he wouldn't have needed to stop. Secondly the set he put on were knackered by the circumstances.


Grand, yet another comment that infers all things being equal, Lewis is actually a lot better its just that he's not able to show it in F1... :drunk:
Based on the last few years, and the trend, that is evidently not the case.
Outside of this thread, the consensus is pretty evenly split between the two of them, unsurprisingly.


I believe he pitted again because he couldn't get any heat into his tires and was struggling for pace, this was after having changed his tires again after the HRT incident.



#1571 Paul Parker

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 14:37

For a start if he hadn't hit the HRT he wouldn't have needed to stop. Secondly the set he put on were knackered by the circumstances.

Grand, yet another comment that infers all things being equal, Lewis is actually a lot better its just that he's not able to show it in F1... :drunk:
Based on the last few years, and the trend, that is evidently not the case.
Outside of this thread, the consensus is pretty evenly split between the two of them, unsurprisingly.


The thing that stands out for me are the polarised opinions that Jenson Button seems to attract.

It is not so much that Lewis Hamilton had an ultimately disappointing 2011 and that he finished 3rd at Melbourne, rather it is a reluctance to recognise or accept that Button has turned out to be better than many thought he was. He seems to me to be still improving and was en route to winning Monaco before what looked like poor strategy dropped him to 3rd whilst the Spa qualifying cock-up surely cost him a chance at 2nd place if not a win. Then there was Monza and so on.

In my opinion Hamilton is self evidently one of the two fastest drivers on the grid but like anybody there are times when things begin to slide. Lewis has been at the very front of the sharp end for nearly all of his now long career in motor sport, perhaps he needs a respite from the unrelenting pressure and expectations placed upon him by all and sundry.

#1572 fieraku

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 15:09

The thing that stands out for me are the polarised opinions that Jenson Button seems to attract.

It is not so much that Lewis Hamilton had an ultimately disappointing 2011 and that he finished 3rd at Melbourne, rather it is a reluctance to recognise or accept that Button has turned out to be better than many thought he was. He seems to me to be still improving and was en route to winning Monaco before what looked like poor strategy dropped him to 3rd whilst the Spa qualifying cock-up surely cost him a chance at 2nd place if not a win. Then there was Monza and so on.

In my opinion Hamilton is self evidently one of the two fastest drivers on the grid but like anybody there are times when things begin to slide. Lewis has been at the very front of the sharp end for nearly all of his now long career in motor sport, perhaps he needs a respite from the unrelenting pressure and expectations placed upon him by all and sundry.


Yes true,I have changed my opinion of JB as of late.I guess those two years before he won the WDC looked unimpressive even though I'll admit I wasn't paying close attention to him just remember he had a few collisions,DNFs and looked unmotivated,to me at least.
The car is everything in F1 so it can't be held against him,I guess he could have done better?

He has highly impressed since and have to give him his dues. Top 4 driver atm.

#1573 bauss

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 15:39

For a start if he hadn't hit the HRT he wouldn't have needed to stop. Secondly the set he put on were knackered by the circumstances.

Grand, yet another comment that infers all things being equal, Lewis is actually a lot better its just that he's not able to show it in F1... :drunk:
Based on the last few years, and the trend, that is evidently not the case.
Outside of this thread, the consensus is pretty evenly split between the two of them, unsurprisingly.


After the front wing stop, he stopped again

I don't see how you can infer the bolded from my comment...perhaps a much milder version of that...but inferring "alot better" is another of those many attempts to strawman those that do not fully agree with you to make them seem irrational (notice the use of :drunk:)

Do I believe he is better, yes... but in my years of posting here, not once have I said a lot better.... cos I don't believe it. No driver on the grid IMO is a lot better than JB.

That is because since 09, it was obvious to me JB was a big enough talent. Forget all the "super smoove, oh so cool " soundbites. What was obvious to me then was that JB was very quick and very consistent... the two most important traits for a GP driver to have. You cannot be a lot better than any driver who has both in abundance. GP racing is pretty unique, there is a limit to what you can do with the car, to how consistent you can be (and how much you can score over another in each race)... If another driver looks like he is approaching these limits, there is nothing you can do to be much better.

Also crucially, the points are not counted by personal scorecard btw two rivals like most sports (which IMO is better in terms of direct comparison). It is much more subject to finer details than that.

Schumi was the gold standard in F1. Seeing JB handle RB just like Schumi did was enough evidence of JB's abilities...even Brawn made mention of this.

I mentioned even b4 the first race btw these two that if LH is a little off, JB will be there. That was the case attimes for 2010 and majority of 2011.

The big divide now btw both sets of fans is if 2011 was a proper representative year in terms of LH's ability/talent application or not. What side of this argument I stand is obvious....what is also obvious is that F1 has changed with the introduction of the new tires...whatever talent gap existed btw both is even more shrunk in scope of application.

Which is why this year is crucial. Personally, I hope these two remain teammates for many years and rumors/signs of things turning out otherwise are either unfounded or dissipate.
The reality of which driver is better by however little or large will be undeniable after a number of years. What is also undeniable is that if two full seasons as teammates do not separate them by much, then one cannot be much better than the other.








#1574 PretentiousBread

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 16:16

I think its impressive that Lewis is taking a more calculated approach to his campaign, and ironic that is fine with his many fans since the popular reason for his support has been his racer style... I see that goes out of the window as long as he's winning...

Also to note that although Button had a nightmare race in Malaysia, had he not made that mistake, he has got himself ahead of Lewis for the 2nd race running and would almost certainly have beaten him again... Jenson seems to have serious race pace this season, if Lewis can keep control of himself I think this is going to be extremely tight over the course of the season.

Yup, its going to come down to the minds over the season. Jenson has thrown away 15 points with a rash move, how many points will he throw away over the season? How many points will Lewis throw away. Retiring/not scoring from podium points paying positions is major.


Try watching the race next time.

#1575 TeamMacca

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 16:24

I think its impressive that Lewis is taking a more calculated approach to his campaign, and ironic that is fine with his many fans since the popular reason for his support has been his racer style... I see that goes out of the window as long as he's winning...

Also to note that although Button had a nightmare race in Malaysia, had he not made that mistake, he has got himself ahead of Lewis for the 2nd race running and would almost certainly have beaten him again... Jenson seems to have serious race pace this season, if Lewis can keep control of himself I think this is going to be extremely tight over the course of the season.

Yup, its going to come down to the minds over the season. Jenson has thrown away 15 points with a rash move, how many points will he throw away over the season? How many points will Lewis throw away. Retiring/not scoring from podium points paying positions is major.


Lewis had the pace on Jenson in Malaysia and Jenson only got out infront of Lewis because of the pitstop - Alonso was about 3 seconds behind Lewis coming into the pits and ended up getting infront of Lewis and infront of Jenson.



#1576 robefc

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 16:54

Jenson was fortunate both times he got ahead of Lewis in Oz and Malaysia but he certainly had great race pace in Oz so would probably have won anyway.

Malaysia was strange, I think Lewis had at least as good if not better pace before the SC but they both seem to lose it after that.

I'll be anxiously waiting in china to see if Lewis understands any set up issues which slowed him in Oz (he said he did) and can match or surpass JB's race pace.

What's also of interest is even with the 'perfect' set up, will Lewis be quicker than Jenson in a car this well balanced (which I think makes jenson relatively quicker than he would be in a lesser car)? Then add in the tyres question...

And that's just the two of them, it's difficult to know how the competition stacks up race pace wise, particularly Red Bull, whilst renault and mercedes could be threatening in quali.

#1577 bauss

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 17:18

Jenson was fortunate both times he got ahead of Lewis in Oz and Malaysia but he certainly had great race pace in Oz so would probably have won anyway.

Malaysia was strange, I think Lewis had at least as good if not better pace before the SC but they both seem to lose it after that.

I'll be anxiously waiting in china to see if Lewis understands any set up issues which slowed him in Oz (he said he did) and can match or surpass JB's race pace.

What's also of interest is even with the 'perfect' set up, will Lewis be quicker than Jenson in a car this well balanced (which I think makes jenson relatively quicker than he would be in a lesser car)? Then add in the tyres question...

And that's just the two of them, it's difficult to know how the competition stacks up race pace wise, particularly Red Bull, whilst renault and mercedes could be threatening in quali.


The 2011 car was probably even more balanced, remember the overrun EBD given lots of rear end grip on and off throttle.

This leads to two things now though. I believe Lewis will be able to deal with the looser and more traditional rear we have now more.

But if he is not careful, this could be at the cost of tires which are even more pancake-like this season which can give JB an advantage in the race as he seems naturally more conservative with his rears.

Setup in each race will be more crucial than ever, getting the balance right btw pure speed and tire life.

#1578 silverstonegeneral

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 17:39

i see alot of ppl now knocking the bias thing.
but it is a fact that whitmarsh favours button,this is the reason why he always wants to talk about button.
we even saw damon hill doing it in malaysia.after the race when asked a question about lewis he responded by talking about button.
also why is it that when button is happy staying out for a few more laps,lewis always still has to wait for button to pit first,even if lewis desperatly needs to pit?(when lewis was the trailing driver)
whereas the other way round its always fine for button to pit?its happened so many times,and for this reason button has managed to get the undercut to get ahead of lewis a good number of times.


#1579 silverstonegeneral

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 17:57

If Lewis has gone from being the McLaren golden-boy from his 2007-2009 seasons, to being unpopular in his own team following Button's signing, who's fault is it really? I really don't think it is actually the case, or at least not as bad as some of you are making out, but if it is...

Can you blame a man - Button in this case - for being more popular and a better fit in a team than another man? I remember last year some of you lot were criticising Jenson's 'underhand tactic' of taking his engineers out for a meal thus unfairly biasing the team towards him. Being nice to your team and becoming more popular than your rival driver is hardly an underhanded tactic, it's just the consequence of a more gregarious, and perhaps less petulant personality. Why doesn't Lewis also treat the relatively lowly paid engineers to a night out or two? I don't actually have any information to say that he does or doesn't, but I do know that Button has and does quite regularly.


we dont want lewis to turn into button.but it seems like some ppl like you do.
if ppl preferred button more then he'd have the bigger fan base instead of lewis.
and some ppl may call taking engineers out for dinner and "maybe"pretending to like them,as he does with the media,as a form a bribery.
but you shouldnt need to be favoured to beat your team mate.if your good enough you should be able to do that while getting equal treatment.

Edited by silverstonegeneral, 04 April 2012 - 17:58.


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#1580 robefc

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 18:05

i see alot of ppl now knocking the bias thing.
but it is a fact that whitmarsh favours button,this is the reason why he always wants to talk about button.
we even saw damon hill doing it in malaysia.after the race when asked a question about lewis he responded by talking about button.
also why is it that when button is happy staying out for a few more laps,lewis always still has to wait for button to pit first,even if lewis desperatly needs to pit?(when lewis was the trailing driver)
whereas the other way round its always fine for button to pit?its happened so many times,and for this reason button has managed to get the undercut to get ahead of lewis a good number of times.


1. No it's not
2. What has Damon hill got to do with MW favouring Lewis
3. No it hasn't

#1581 lewymp4

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 18:07

Lewis had the pace on Jenson in Malaysia and Jenson only got out infront of Lewis because of the pitstop - Alonso was about 3 seconds behind Lewis coming into the pits and ended up getting infront of Lewis and infront of Jenson.


Lewis did have more pace on Jenson at Malaysia, and their lap times during the race seems to confirm that!

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/


#1582 Anomnader

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 18:10

1. No it's not

3. No it hasn't


Disagree with really, China will be interesting to see how Button is favoured this time.

#1583 PARAZAR

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 18:11

we dont want lewis to turn into button.but it seems like some ppl like you do.
if ppl preferred button more then he'd have the bigger fan base instead of lewis.
and some ppl may call taking engineers out for dinner and "maybe"pretending to like them,as he does with the media,as a form a bribery.
but you shouldnt need to be favoured to beat your team mate.if your good enough you should be able to do that while getting equal treatment.


Really? So I guess having a good relationship with your employers and team in order to have a stable and productive working environment is an alien concept to you? And lets think twice before we start throwing accusations of favouritism.

#1584 panzani

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 18:13

One of these days I'll fully understand these silly DriverX versus DriverY scorecard threads... Thank Thor nobody ever started TeamX versus TeamY copycats!

Look at the Championship Table race by race during the season and then after the last race... Those are the only figures that will be kept.  ;)

#1585 PNSD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 18:19

Lewis did have more pace on Jenson at Malaysia, and their lap times during the race seems to confirm that!

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/


What it confirms is that Jenson was racing down the pack, and Lewis up front.

#1586 bass6

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 18:21

What is also undeniable is that if two full seasons as teammates do not separate them by much, then one cannot be much better than the other.


Good point.


#1587 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 18:29

we dont want lewis to turn into button.but it seems like some ppl like you do.
if ppl preferred button more then he'd have the bigger fan base instead of lewis.


Presumably, Lewis, a professional racing driver, is more concerned about winning Grands Prix and World Championships than having a bigger fanbase than his teammate. I'd imagine that if a change in approach, work ethic or style will help him achieve that, he'll consider it. It's not his job to be popular. I would have thought that many of his fans would prefer he achieves success rather than be popular, but I guess that's why one shouldn't presume what a group of people think.


and some ppl may call taking engineers out for dinner and "maybe"pretending to like them,as he does with the media,as a form a bribery.


Forming a good bond with your co-workers is an important part of any high stress job. As the one who reaps the biggest rewards, the driver should be expected to put in the biggest effort in that regard. Bribery it is not.


but you shouldnt need to be favoured to beat your team mate.if your good enough you should be able to do that while getting equal treatment.


True.

#1588 robefc

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 19:09

Disagree with really, China will be interesting to see how Button is favoured this time.


Well it's definitely not a fact that MA favours JB, it's simply a bunch of opinions.

And I asked for examples a while ago in this thread of JB benefitting from the undercut in a first stint v Lewis, maybe you can supply them where others couldn't? And no, drivers making their own decisions in wet races do not count.

#1589 GlenP

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 19:22

Why not watch China with the presumption that Lewis will be favoured? I bet if you take the experiment seriously (fat chance) you'll see just as much "evidence" to that effect as vice versa. What about Jenson's set of tyres with the shuddering in Sepang? Can you imagine the fuore if that were a Lewis set of tyres?!

#1590 velgajski1

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 19:23

From what I know (and its pointless telling you from where) its not a case of MW and LH falling out, its simply a case of in the post RD era, that MW has worked hard to foster an environment of equality and togetherness in his own style. That in itself means that the RD-LH axis no longer prevails - I suspect that is probably the issue here. Meanwhile JB is known to have bonded exceptionally well with the team and whilst LH has a very strong bond too, he has also displayed moments of arrogance which have not gone down well with everyone. These are known facts.


I think its not that. I think its what Bernie said about Hamilton.

When Lewis got to F1, he wanted nothing else but to win races, his father kept him in check when he would go astray, and probably RD helped in that too. It's not a wonder he was performing at such a great levels. But after his title, he became a bit of a 'star' and probably took parts of that lifestyle, thats why he was underperforming in 2011., and probably last third of 2010.

One or two bad seasons is not a horrible thing, but we are still to see if Lewis becomes like Button (at his best in mature years), or will he burn out and fade away. I think 2012/2013. may be very indicative towards where is he moving.

Maybe this is more for Lewis Hamilton thread, but I am a bit dissapointed with Lewis for not performing at his best levels for last season and half, I know he has great potential, but in current crop of F1 drivers there's at least 10 guys giving their 100% for F1, and if you're not at your 100% you will simply fall behind, no matter how talented you are. However, if he wins title for McLaren in 2012., all will be forgotten :)

Edited by velgajski1, 04 April 2012 - 19:27.


#1591 MP422

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 19:26

Presumably, Lewis, a professional racing driver, is more concerned about winning Grands Prix and World Championships than having a bigger fanbase than his teammate. I'd imagine that if a change in approach, work ethic or style will help him achieve that, he'll consider it. It's not his job to be popular. I would have thought that many of his fans would prefer he achieves success rather than be popular, but I guess that's why one shouldn't presume what a group of people think.




Forming a good bond with your co-workers is an important part of any high stress job. As the one who reaps the biggest rewards, the driver should be expected to put in the biggest effort in that regard. Bribery it is not.




True.



Nah nah, you wanna be popular !!! You attract more money and support for your team. That's why they get endorsements....

#1592 robefc

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:24

I think its not that. I think its what Bernie said about Hamilton.

When Lewis got to F1, he wanted nothing else but to win races, his father kept him in check when he would go astray, and probably RD helped in that too. It's not a wonder he was performing at such a great levels. But after his title, he became a bit of a 'star' and probably took parts of that lifestyle, thats why he was underperforming in 2011., and probably last third of 2010.

One or two bad seasons is not a horrible thing, but we are still to see if Lewis becomes like Button (at his best in mature years), or will he burn out and fade away. I think 2012/2013. may be very indicative towards where is he moving.

Maybe this is more for Lewis Hamilton thread, but I am a bit dissapointed with Lewis for not performing at his best levels for last season and half, I know he has great potential, but in current crop of F1 drivers there's at least 10 guys giving their 100% for F1, and if you're not at your 100% you will simply fall behind, no matter how talented you are. However, if he wins title for McLaren in 2012., all will be forgotten :)


He got involved in the celebrity lifestyle and then 18 months later he started to under perform?

I think you're being ridiculously harsh on his second half of 2010 btw.

I agree that this season is pretty crucial in how his career will go though

#1593 Rocket73

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:27

Why not watch China with the presumption that Lewis will be favoured? I bet if you take the experiment seriously (fat chance) you'll see just as much "evidence" to that effect as vice versa. What about Jenson's set of tyres with the shuddering in Sepang? Can you imagine the fuore if that were a Lewis set of tyres?!

:up: agreed. Especially the fat chance part


#1594 GlenP

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:05

:up: agreed. Especially the fat chance part

Anyone remotely serious about the possibility of there being bias at McLaren should do this - watch the next race with the belief that it is is Lewis that is getting favourtism, and carefully and honestly examine if they see indications to support that bias. Don't rule anything out, don't weigh it up - just look for the complete opposite of what the Hamilton obsessed usually look for.

#1595 as65p

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:04

Anyone remotely serious about the possibility of there being bias at McLaren should do this - watch the next race with the belief that it is is Lewis that is getting favourtism, and carefully and honestly examine if they see indications to support that bias. Don't rule anything out, don't weigh it up - just look for the complete opposite of what the Hamilton obsessed usually look for.


If those who it concerns would be capable of doing that, there wo├║ldn't be a problem in the first place.

S, pretty useless advice you give there.  ;)

#1596 jjcale

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:08

Anyone remotely serious about the possibility of there being bias at McLaren should do this - watch the next race with the belief that it is is Lewis that is getting favourtism, and carefully and honestly examine if they see indications to support that bias. Don't rule anything out, don't weigh it up - just look for the complete opposite of what the Hamilton obsessed usually look for.


Most of my real life F1 friends are Ferrari fans (so the last few seasons have been good! ;) ) and they mostly hate LH. They are mostly casual fans.. I am probably the most hardcore (in that I care to find out the technical stuff that you guys like to discuss) but they are still proper fans who watch all the races and support a team rather a celebrity driver but they dont follow live timing, for instance... and they all to a man think LH was screwed by Macca in the past two races and they think JB is the clear favourite at Macca... probably the most hardcore is an Italian guy who joking around said to me after the last race - LH was on a Sunday afternoon drive cause he does not care anymore.

Now I am not saying these guys are right... in fact far from it. But I thought I would mention this just to point out that folks who are (compared to most of us) relatively casual viewers and who are not biased re JB v LH can form such a decisive opinions that LH is being screwed based on what they have seen on TV in the past two races (.. but of course without doing the kind of deep analysis that you guys do).... for what it is worth, I often start with one opinion after a race then after a couple of hours here, it will have been altered by people pointing out stuff that I did not notice.

Anyway, I do recognize that this is unscientific second hand info and so you just have to trust me on it... and, no... I will not name my friends ;)

#1597 GlenP

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:19

Most of my real life F1 friends are Ferrari fans (so the last few seasons have been good! ;) ) and they mostly hate LH. They are mostly casual fans.. I am probably the most hardcore (in that I care to find out the technical stuff that you guys like to discuss) but they are still proper fans who watch all the races and support a team rather a celebrity driver but they dont follow live timing, for instance... and they all to a man think LH was screwed by Macca in the past two races and they think JB is the clear favourite at Macca... probably the most hardcore is an Italian guy who joking around said to me after the last race - LH was on a Sunday afternoon drive cause he does not care anymore.

Now I am not saying these guys are right... in fact far from it. But I thought I would mention this just to point out that folks who are (compared to most of us) relatively casual viewers and who are not biased re JB v LH can form such a decisive opinions that LH is being screwed based on what they have seen on TV in the past two races (.. but of course without doing the kind of deep analysis that you guys do).... for what it is worth, I often start with one opinion after a race then after a couple of hours here, it will have been altered by people pointing out stuff that I did not notice.

Anyway, I do recognize that this is unscientific second hand info and so you just have to trust me on it... and, no... I will not name my friends ;)

I don't doubt any of that.

It is still interesting and relevant to look for the opposite of what you expect to find.

I will genuinely look for "evidence" supporting the anti Lewis idea - I hope some others do the opposite.

#1598 GlenP

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:20

and they all to a man think LH was screwed by Macca in the past two races

On what grounds?!

#1599 jjcale

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:09

On what grounds?!


The first two rounds of pit stops in the last race would probably be the most cogent thing (my best friend had only watched part of the race and managed to form an opinion on this) ... but we have explained it here.

The more closely you follow F1 the less you tend to see favouritism and the more you see errors by teams, engineers, drivers etc.

I just wanted to point out that you dont need to be a raving LH head to see favouritism... people will always have different opinions... debate the facts and dont treat people who disagree with you like they are hopelessly biased or stupid (which we all sometimes do) ... is what I was trying to get across.

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#1600 fieraku

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:23

I think its not that. I think its what Bernie said about Hamilton.

When Lewis got to F1, he wanted nothing else but to win races, his father kept him in check when he would go astray, and probably RD helped in that too. It's not a wonder he was performing at such a great levels. But after his title, he became a bit of a 'star' and probably took parts of that lifestyle, thats why he was underperforming in 2011., and probably last third of 2010.

One or two bad seasons is not a horrible thing, but we are still to see if Lewis becomes like Button (at his best in mature years), or will he burn out and fade away. I think 2012/2013. may be very indicative towards where is he moving.

Maybe this is more for Lewis Hamilton thread, but I am a bit dissapointed with Lewis for not performing at his best levels for last season and half, I know he has great potential, but in current crop of F1 drivers there's at least 10 guys giving their 100% for F1, and if you're not at your 100% you will simply fall behind, no matter how talented you are. However, if he wins title for McLaren in 2012., all will be forgotten :)


And McLaren had nothing to do with that you think? Hamilton was and still is doing a heavy load of adds/promotions for McLaren which made him a mainstream "star". Johnny Walker,Mobile1,Boss etc are all Mclaren sponsors and they milked every drop of Hamilton success and fame that they could.
Lewis himself said that people that say I live a star lifestyle have no frikkin clue.

That's why I dislike some Mac fans,because just like the bosses there they're fast to blame the drivers,it must be Mclaren culture.Mclaren are the team that makes their drivers do more work then any other,so you can blame Ron for making his drivers ''stars''

I like Red Bull for the simple fact that there aren't 100 sponsors on their car which the drivers have to do work for and be overloaded with none F1 related matters.

Every time Ron has company business/promotions in the US,guess who's his poster boy? And it's not like he can refuse to do so.You can blame McLaren and their PR machine for this ''star'' business just as much.