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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1601 learningtobelost

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:28

The probem with all of this is that the only 'evidence' that seems to crop up is the following:

1) All and sundry in the paddock seem to prefer to talk about Jenson, which given his personality is not a suprise.

2) The Mclaren random number generator that they use for strategy.

On point one, I'm noticing it more and more, but I don't really believe that it's a factor of bias, more an effect of their relative personalities.

Regarding point two, as a Mclaren fan of 20 years or so I genuinely believe that no other team in the history of the sport has been so consistently hapless in the strategy department. If anyone can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, it's my beloved Mclaren!

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#1602 GlenP

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:56

The first two rounds of pit stops in the last race would probably be the most cogent thing (my best friend had only watched part of the race and managed to form an opinion on this) ... but we have explained it here.

The more closely you follow F1 the less you tend to see favouritism and the more you see errors by teams, engineers, drivers etc.

I just wanted to point out that you dont need to be a raving LH head to see favouritism... people will always have different opinions... debate the facts and dont treat people who disagree with you like they are hopelessly biased or stupid (which we all sometimes do) ... is what I was trying to get across.

I do get your point - it is well made and I agree with it (that it is is possible for people to see things that way, not that it is real!).

#1603 PNSD

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 15:18

I like Red Bull for the simple fact that there aren't 100 sponsors on their car which the drivers have to do work for and be overloaded with none F1 related matters.


Step back and think about that post. Lewis, your man said it best himself.

RedBull is a drinks company.

Mclaren is a racing team.

Mclaren were setup to race and only race.. Since then they have made a few high end road cars, but hardly anything mass production giving shed loads of profit. RedBull on the other hand are a drinks company who are king of their field, and easily rival coke and pepsi in popularity and recognition IMO.

They don't need sponsors because the business funds the race team. In no way can Mclaren automotive fun Mclaren racing. So, for poor Lewis and Jenson to have the seats they do, they should work for them... rightfully so too.

#1604 Kvothe

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 15:56

http://www.facebook....mp;__att=iframe

Happy Birthday Paddy! Our Techincal Director, Paddy Lowe, is 50 today. JB was here to wish him well on the big 5-0!


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I wonder where Lewis was.

Edited by Kvothe, 05 April 2012 - 15:56.


#1605 Fox1

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 16:07

I wonder where Lewis was.

Out working with UNICEF to bring attention to the plight of starving children around the world. WHERE ARE HIS PRIORITIES???

#1606 TeamMacca

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 16:17

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I wonder where Lewis was.


Interesting Photo's they are both holding up there

#1607 Kvothe

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 16:20

Out working with UNICEF to bring attention to the plight of starving children around the world. WHERE ARE HIS PRIORITIES???


That was last week ;)

#1608 TallyHo

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 16:41

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I wonder where Lewis was.

Button the Silent Assassin is at it again.  ;)

#1609 fieraku

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 16:55

Step back and think about that post. Lewis, your man said it best himself.

RedBull is a drinks company.

Mclaren is a racing team.

Mclaren were setup to race and only race.. Since then they have made a few high end road cars, but hardly anything mass production giving shed loads of profit. RedBull on the other hand are a drinks company who are king of their field, and easily rival coke and pepsi in popularity and recognition IMO.

They don't need sponsors because the business funds the race team. In no way can Mclaren automotive fun Mclaren racing. So, for poor Lewis and Jenson to have the seats they do, they should work for them... rightfully so too.


Yeah and by doing so they get way more ''none F1" coverage which contributes to the "star" status the dude was complaining about.
Say Lewis is on Johnny Walker,Mobil1,Hugo Boss,Vodafone adverts and whatever partners Mac has which their drivers are obliged to participate only fuels to the "Star" flame.

The more visible the drivers are outside F1 the bigger stars they are,so only blaming Lewis for his stardom is unfair,McLaren&Partners are just as responsible if not more for milking him and showing him like a shiny doll.

#1610 AMG FAN

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 03:28

For a start if he hadn't hit the HRT he wouldn't have needed to stop. Secondly the set he put on were knackered by the circumstances.

Grand, yet another comment that infers all things being equal, Lewis is actually a lot better its just that he's not able to show it in F1... :drunk:
Based on the last few years, and the trend, that is evidently not the case.
Outside of this thread, the consensus is pretty evenly split between the two of them, unsurprisingly.

the only times Jenson was faster than Lewis in that race was when he was on much newer tyres....you're assuming that Jenson would have stayed ahead of Lewis till the flag.

#1611 slmk

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:52

Lewis has a 5-place grid penalty. Will that affect the scoreboard for pole? What if Lewis doesn't go for pole and instead choose to run harder tyre for the prospects of a better race on Sunday - a move which he probably wouldn't have made had he been penalty-free...

#1612 GlenP

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:58

Lewis has a 5-place grid penalty. Will that affect the scoreboard for pole? What if Lewis doesn't go for pole and instead choose to run harder tyre for the prospects of a better race on Sunday - a move which he probably wouldn't have made had he been penalty-free...

Lol @ scoreboard for pole. Like it's one point for Saturday, one for Sunday.

Qualifying stats are of mild secondary interest. The race is all that really counts.

#1613 Markn93

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:23

Lol @ scoreboard for pole. Like it's one point for Saturday, one for Sunday.

Qualifying stats are of mild secondary interest. The race is all that really counts.


Qualifying counts towards the race, as the better you do the easier the race becomes, surely you know this. As for quali stats being of 'mild secondary interest' that's hardly surprising coming from a JB fan.

#1614 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:34

As for quali stats being of 'mild secondary interest' that's hardly surprising coming from a JB fan.

You're quite correct. I'm happy for LH to win the quali wdc 19-0 if JB finishes ahead in that other thing they do on Sundays.



#1615 slmk

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:39

You're quite correct. I'm happy for LH to win the quali wdc 19-0 if JB finishes ahead in that other thing they do on Sundays.


So then the Qualifying is a draw, right?

#1616 robefc

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:39

Qualifying counts towards the race, as the better you do the easier the race becomes, surely you know this. As for quali stats being of 'mild secondary interest' that's hardly surprising coming from a JB fan.


All that counts it's the race result, good quali makes a good result easier, no more, no less.

#1617 Lazy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:40

Qualifying counts towards the race, as the better you do the easier the race becomes, surely you know this. As for quali stats being of 'mild secondary interest' that's hardly surprising coming from a JB fan.


But qualy stats don't.

#1618 Lazy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:42

So then the Qualifying is a draw, right?


?

#1619 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:44

So then the Qualifying is a draw, right?

Eh?

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#1620 GlenP

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:48

Qualifying counts towards the race, as the better you do the easier the race becomes, surely you know this. As for quali stats being of 'mild secondary interest' that's hardly surprising coming from a JB fan.

Converting quali position into race result is what counts. If you want to be pleased with quali results and aren't bothered (relatively speaking) about converting to proper results then fine.

Obviously I can see what you're saying on the JB perspective thing - but really, what are you saying - one scorecard thread point for Sat and one for Sun? That's hardly surprising coming from a LH fan - see? Works both ways, but whichever way you look at it, F1 is a race on a Sunday with no points on Saturday.

#1621 PretentiousBread

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:39

Converting quali position into race result is what counts. If you want to be pleased with quali results and aren't bothered (relatively speaking) about converting to proper results then fine.

Obviously I can see what you're saying on the JB perspective thing - but really, what are you saying - one scorecard thread point for Sat and one for Sun? That's hardly surprising coming from a LH fan - see? Works both ways, but whichever way you look at it, F1 is a race on a Sunday with no points on Saturday.


As i've understood it the scorecard has always been 1 point for qualifying, 2 points for the race. Seems fair to me. Anyone with any beef with it, guess what? It doesn't change the real points table, stare at that if it makes you happier.

#1622 GlenP

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:58

As i've understood it the scorecard has always been 1 point for qualifying, 2 points for the race. Seems fair to me. Anyone with any beef with it, guess what? It doesn't change the real points table, stare at that if it makes you happier.

I guess it is a mark of the madness of these threads that I never read that before.

I don't see why that should apply (what's the point is awarding half as many marks for something that makes no difference?).

I won't look at what makes me happy though - I'll look at what actually is F1. Races.

#1623 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:12

As i've understood it the scorecard has always been 1 point for qualifying, 2 points for the race. Seems fair to me. Anyone with any beef with it, guess what? It doesn't change the real points table, stare at that if it makes you happier.

Has there ever been a scorecard like that? I'm honestly not aware of it if so. There have been various individual scorecards posted over the last couple of seasons but I don't recall anything like the above being formalised.
The scorecard is what you want it to be - unless you're talking about the official one.

#1624 Lights

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 14:10

Has there ever been a scorecard like that? I'm honestly not aware of it if so. There have been various individual scorecards posted over the last couple of seasons but I don't recall anything like the above being formalised.

Yeah the one used in this thread by Dunder? uses this.

#1625 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 14:17

Yeah the one used in this thread by Dunder? uses this.

That's what I said, no? That's Dundee's card - not everyone's.

#1626 MightyMoose

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 14:41

Posts deleted.

Thinly disguised personal insults are always unwelcome in these forums. Equally unwelcome is quoting posts with the offending comment.

Please report attacks on the poster rather than responding.

Thank you.

#1627 GlenP

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 15:04

Qualifying is a bit like the first lap of the race; it doesn't make sense to rank it as thirty times more important than the other 60 laps, to me.

#1628 Cult

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 16:03

Not really the point, it's not necessarily how important it is but that qualifying is when the drivers are trying to go at their ultimate pace.

Aren't we essentially trying to measure who is better rather than systematically analysing which laps are the most important? Qualifying is ridiculously important for the race weekend, and just because you don't get any points for it doesn't mean it shouldn't count in a scorecard. I'd argue that you should analyse qualifying and the race separately, with more weight being put on maximising points in the races.

#1629 jjcale

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 16:06

:lol: ... why exactly dont JB fans want to count qualifying anymore??

Its two differnent scorecards, really. One for quali and one for races... if that makes anyone feel better. Disregard quali if you like but dont try to tell people who care about it that its not important.... if a couple of cars start to get between LH and JB regularly you will soon have to admit that quali is very important...

#1630 GlenP

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 16:18

I would agree with you both 100% except for the important thing you both ignore (for your own reasons I guess) - which is that if a driver is rather too focused on quali he may set his car up a bit more that way and it will distort his quali stats. If a driver were to do that, what one might expect to find is a mis-match between number of poles and number of wins from pole, as was discussed recently on here.

I freely admit that Hamilton is quicker over one lap. I'm not trying to hide or deny that, never have. On the opposite side (that means you guys) you might want to think what it counts for if you are quick over one lap but fail to get a really good number of conversions from pole race win (not much, is what it means). Hamilton is quick over one sixtieth of race distance. Great. Both of them are very quick over a full race distance. Ultimately, the last category is the one that counts.

#1631 GlenP

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 16:19

Aren't we essentially trying to measure who is better rather than systematically analysing which laps are the most important?

OK - I'll give Hamilton that one here and now. He does quicker single laps.

And?

#1632 bonjon1979a

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:02

This is interesting, average times per stint comparing Lewis and Jenson in Australia:

BUT
1:33.945 (15 laps) 1:32.354 (18) 1:41.983 (21)


HAM
1:34.317 (16laps) 1:32.387 (17) 1:41.512 (21)

You couldn't really argue that they were presented with strategies that were vastly different. Jenson's first stint is very impressive. Lewis' second stint is also good considering the time he lost in the pits and stuck behind someone (perez I think, can't remember!). Last stint must be skewed somewhat by safety car stuff as otherwise Hamilton would've done the last stint around 7 seconds quicker than Jenson which just seems odd. Actually, that's probably the exact amount of time it took for Hamilton's pitstop - the time which he caught up when he followed Jenson up behind the safety car.



#1633 sofarapartguy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:12

This is interesting, average times per stint comparing Lewis and Jenson in Australia:


Says not much except the thing Jenson was in front, built the gap and then just cruised to victory. Those average times leave for Andrew Benson(was it he?) or the one, who was making official predictions and analysis during winter testing.

#1634 PNSD

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:19

Despite the qualifying penalty, Lewis is still in contention for the win. As said above about using the harder tyre for the first stint, that could actually prove to be an advantage. Look at how well Webber raced last year.

Could be interesting.

#1635 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:36

It's laughable how qualifying stats are somehow irrelevant. On Pirelli's tyre management race tyres, Button is sitting pretty due to his superior tyre management skills and everybody acknowledges this. So to mask/hide his fundamental lack of speed, you have accusations of Lewis opts for a qualifying set up, while Button chooses a race set up and this explains Buttons getting beaten in qualifying, more often than not. :rolleyes: Now we have certain individuals trying to make a case, qualifying stats have no place in the Jenson vs Lewis scorecard, while forgetting it has been counted since 2010. :lol:

#1636 MinT

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:40

Bit of a weird start to the season so far...

driver 1 overtakes his teammate in the first race and drives off into the distance to win and taking fastest lap in the process and in the 2nd race manages to clumbsily trash his race by making contact with a slower car whilst trying to get in position for another win.

driver 2 makes 2 solid, steady but unspectacular 3rd places thus cementing a good position near the top of the championship.

How many people before the season started would of named driver 1 as Button and driver 2 as Hami...?

Wonder if "normal" service will be resumed this weekend.

#1637 f1fastestlap

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:48

It's laughable how qualifying stats are somehow irrelevant. On Pirelli's tyre management race tyres, Button is sitting pretty due to his superior tyre management skills and everybody acknowledges this. So to mask/hide his fundamental lack of speed, you have accusations of Lewis opts for a qualifying set up, while Button chooses a race set up and this explains Buttons getting beaten in qualifying, more often than not. :rolleyes: Now we have certain individuals trying to make a case, qualifying stats have no place in the Jenson vs Lewis scorecard, while forgetting it has been counted since 2010. :lol:

:up: :lol:

#1638 P123

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:49

Arguing over an invented scorecard now.... :stoned: The only one that counts is the official standings. The rest is just one upmanship between the regular squabblers.

#1639 Watkins74

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:54

Despite the qualifying penalty, Lewis is still in contention for the win. As said above about using the harder tyre for the first stint, that could actually prove to be an advantage. Look at how well Webber raced last year.

Could be interesting.

Reason I am not an F1 strategist #359

I would put Hamilton on Softs because I think it is imperative that he qualify high as possible with his penalty. On the harder tire he could be as far back as 4th or 5th and then add in a 5 spot penalty and he is a long way back.

However it looks like I am on an island on this one. :smoking:

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#1640 maverick69

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:54

Arguing over an invented scorecard now.... :stoned: The only one that counts is the official standings. The rest is just one upmanship between the regular squabblers.


Indeed.

I reckon this thread should only be open from the start of FP1 until 24hrs after the chequered flag falls...... because after that it's the same old crap.

Would be fun too :smoking:



#1641 jjcale

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:58

Reason I am not an F1 strategist #359

I would put Hamilton on Softs because I think it is imperative that he qualify high as possible with his penalty. On the harder tire he could be as far back as 4th or 5th and then add in a 5 spot penalty and he is a long way back.

However it looks like I am on an island on this one. :smoking:


Nah ... that's the only choice

#1642 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 18:00

:lol: ... why exactly dont JB fans want to count qualifying anymore??

Because there's no argument to make there, maybe. LH is consistently a bit quicker.
If JB finishes behind on Saturday but scores more points on Sunday why would any JB fan care?
If quali is the difference between them - they finish in the order they start - then it's obviously important.

#1643 ImDDAA

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 18:11

Arguing over an invented scorecard now.... :stoned: The only one that counts is the official standings. The rest is just one upmanship between the regular squabblers.

Cool, let's get this thread closed then?

Last year people (including some Button fans I'm sure) were on about how this thread was seperate to the standings and a place to discuss - in depth - the different qualities between drivers. Qualifying is relevant to understanding the drivers, discussion of all aspects is what this thread is for. I know that doesn't suit some Button fans but they can always opt to not engage people over qualifying discussions.

#1644 ImDDAA

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 18:14

...but really, what are you saying - one scorecard thread point for Sat and one for Sun? That's hardly surprising coming from a LH fan - see? Works both ways, but whichever way you look at it, F1 is a race on a Sunday with no points on Saturday.


Lewis Hamilton has generally done pretty well on Sundays since he entered F1, if you go back and look at his record compared to his team mates.

#1645 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 18:42

Cool, let's get this thread closed then?

Last year people (including some Button fans I'm sure) were on about how this thread was seperate to the standings and a place to discuss - in depth - the different qualities between drivers. Qualifying is relevant to understanding the drivers, discussion of all aspects is what this thread is for. I know that doesn't suit some Button fans but they can always opt to not engage people over qualifying discussions.

I think they pretty much all acknowledge that Hamilton is the better qualifier.
Let's get back to how Mclaren are favouring Hamilton this weekend according to you.

#1646 mlsnoopy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 18:47

Because there's no argument to make there, maybe. LH is consistently a bit quicker.
If JB finishes behind on Saturday but scores more points on Sunday why would any JB fan care?
If quali is the difference between them - they finish in the order they start - then it's obviously important.


But Button is scoring more point beacause of team mistake.

#1647 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 18:48

But Button is scoring more point beacause of team mistake.

Same as last year then, if I recall your posts correctly.

#1648 silverstonegeneral

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 18:57

Lewis Hamilton has generally done pretty well on Sundays since he entered F1, if you go back and look at his record compared to his team mates.


exactly,jenson beats lewis once,lewis becomes overatted.a rookie lewis matched 2xwc and they still say alonso is by far the best driver.
lewis wasnt at his best last season but still managed 3 wins,and this season has been consistent while trying to figure out the tyres and setup he most likes.and not to mention the bad luck he's had and is still having.but he still looks very upbeat from what ive seen.
anyway lewis started from 3rd place last season and won.lets see what he can do on sunday.
a podium finish will keep him close to button and others even if button wins the race.


#1649 revlec

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:04

It looks like Button fans have lost all the confidence they had at the beginning of the year. Don't be nervous guys. It's only F1 ;)

Edited by revlec, 12 April 2012 - 19:05.


#1650 robefc

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:11

It looks like Button fans have lost all the confidence they had at the beginning of the year. Don't be nervous guys. It's only F1 ;)


Button fans generally seem to be pointing out that they only care about quali insofar as it effects the race.

Hard to understand how that's anything but a completely reasonable viewpoint but some seem to be trying...