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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1651 jrg19

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:13

It looks like Button fans have lost all the confidence they had at the beginning of the year. Don't be nervous guys. It's only F1 ;)


I think they are realising Button needs weekends like this to get ahead





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#1652 zack1994

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:15

Button fans generally seem to be pointing out that they only care about quali insofar as it effects the race.

Hard to understand how that's anything but a completely reasonable viewpoint but some seem to be trying...

Your easily the most reasonable hamilton fan :up:

#1653 revlec

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:18

Your easily the most reasonable hamilton fan :up:


Sure. scorecard since 2010 has only been about the race.

#1654 hammibal

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:26

Lewis has a 5-place grid penalty. Will that affect the scoreboard for pole? What if Lewis doesn't go for pole and instead choose to run harder tyre for the prospects of a better race on Sunday - a move which he probably wouldn't have made had he been penalty-free...

Lewis has already said he's gunning for pole so as too start as far up the grid as possible

I guess it is a mark of the madness of these threads that I never read that before.

I don't see why that should apply (what's the point is awarding half as many marks for something that makes no difference?).

I won't look at what makes me happy though - I'll look at what actually is F1. Races.



Has there ever been a scorecard like that? I'm honestly not aware of it if so. There have been various individual scorecards posted over the last couple of seasons but I don't recall anything like the above being formalised.
The scorecard is what you want it to be - unless you're talking about the official one.



:lol: ... why exactly dont JB fans want to count qualifying anymore??

Its two differnent scorecards, really. One for quali and one for races... if that makes anyone feel better. Disregard quali if you like but dont try to tell people who care about it that its not important.... if a couple of cars start to get between LH and JB regularly you will soon have to admit that quali is very important...

There's more to take from F1 than just the race result and qualifying is one, its not just a case of securing a good race start its who is quickest over one lap when you're not conserving this, that or the other, its one thing that helped define Senna for instance.

I find some Jenson fans very defensive on this because Jenson is not a good qualifier relative to Lewis, the scorecard is just a point of interest if Jenson finishes higher in the WDC then obviously he wins

#1655 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:30

Lewis Hamilton has generally done pretty well on Sundays since he entered F1, if you go back and look at his record compared to his team mates.


Well of his three teammates he has been beaten on Sundays by two of them, Button and Alonso (10-7 Alonso in 2007 and 10-9 Button in 2011). He did dominate Heikki but he was a clear #2 driver. So not the best record in the world at least on that point.

#1656 hammibal

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:33

Well of his three teammates he has been beaten on Sundays by two of them, Button and Alonso (10-7 Alonso in 2007 and 10-9 Button in 2011). He did dominate Heikki but he was a clear #2 driver. So not the best record in the world at least on that point.

Yes on that score he got a real beating by Alonso and Jenson :rolleyes:

#1657 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:35

I find some Jenson fans very defensive on this because Jenson is not a good qualifier relative to Lewis, the scorecard is just a point of interest if Jenson finishes higher in the WDC then obviously he wins

I honestly can't see where you're getting that from.
As far as I'm concerned button is pretty good in quali but Hamilton is just exceptional. What's wrong with acknowledging that but saying what happens on Sunday -whichever of them finshes in front - counts for a lot more?

#1658 bonjon1979a

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:39

Because there's no argument to make there, maybe. LH is consistently a bit quicker.
If JB finishes behind on Saturday but scores more points on Sunday why would any JB fan care?
If quali is the difference between them - they finish in the order they start - then it's obviously important.


Agreed - old JB'll have to cut out the silly mistakes though, he can't keep impatiently nerfing the likes of poor NK. Why can't he be more like Lewis? Nice and consistent, pace himself and collect the points?  ;)

#1659 bonjon1979a

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:41

Well of his three teammates he has been beaten on Sundays by two of them, Button and Alonso (10-7 Alonso in 2007 and 10-9 Button in 2011). He did dominate Heikki but he was a clear #2 driver. So not the best record in the world at least on that point.


What happened in 2010? I genuinely can't remember...

Just looked it up, it was 12-7 in Lewis' favour (despite having 3 retirements and that doesn't even include the burst tyre on the last lap of Barcelona...)

Edited by bonjon1979a, 12 April 2012 - 19:45.


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#1660 hammibal

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:47

I honestly can't see where you're getting that from.
As far as I'm concerned button is pretty good in quali but Hamilton is just exceptional. What's wrong with acknowledging that but saying what happens on Sunday -whichever of them finshes in front - counts for a lot more?

Well of course it counts towards the WDC but it can also paper over things like poor pit strategy, reliability, collisions that are not your fault, its just a scorecard and it does give more points towards the race

#1661 hammibal

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:50

What happened in 2010? I genuinely can't remember...

Just looked it up, it was 12-7 in Lewis' favour (despite having 3 retirements and that doesn't even include the burst tyre on the last lap of Barcelona...)

Ahh but in 2010 Jenson was just a #2 driver ;)

#1662 bonjon1979a

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:55

Ahh but in 2010 Jenson was just a #2 driver ;)


Of course, I forgot. Poor old jense!

#1663 zack1994

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 19:57

Sure. scorecard since 2010 has only been about the race.

A win can never be meaningless a pole position can.

#1664 Slartibartfast

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:17

But Button is scoring more point beacause of team mistake.

Ouch! From "TDG" to "team mistake" in less than a season. That's Harsh! :eek:

#1665 robefc

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:18

Well of his three teammates he has been beaten on Sundays by two of them, Button and Alonso (10-7 Alonso in 2007 and 10-9 Button in 2011). He did dominate Heikki but he was a clear #2 driver. So not the best record in the world at least on that point.


He wasn't beaten by alonso on Sundays as there's a little thing called the points system ahem and countback! :p

Obviously that's not how a 'scorecard' works but I don't have the time to go back and score their performances right now :p

For those 'defining' the scorecard - there is no such thing as an 'official scorecard', there was originally a versus thread where people kept a score of who dd better each race weekend, most people agreed on the score for 2010 although some people had different criteria, for instance rinehart awarded draws unless one of the guys significantly out performed the other.

Then the versus threads became scorecards and quali started being scored and Dunder introduced an idea where quali got 1 point and races 2...but none of these things are 'official'.

Personally I liked just having a winner each weekend that was the guy that finished in front unless significant no fault circumstances - Barcelona 2010 being a prime example.

#1666 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:21

Come lets be honest here. There hasn't been a peep or sound against qualifying stats until now. Why is that? The reason is simple. An inescapable fact has dawned on many Button fans and the truth hurts. This is uncomfortable for some, so they wish to diminish its significance. Racing post 2010 is a tyre management exercise, this is an inescapable fact, which plays into Buttons strength and this is the reason from my perspective why he is so competitive against Hamilton. I might be right, or wrong about the tyres being the reason Button is so competitive against Hamilton. But make no mistake, I'm not so deluded to not recognise Button is super competitive and if Hamilton is not totally on his game, he will get beat.

#1667 jjcale

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:32

OK guys... take a break from the pre-weekend willy waving contests about procedural stuff like how to make up the scorecard :D

Check this out.. its driver trainer Rob Wilson on TFL talking about LH and JB among other drivers its from about 0:56:00 onwards ... most of the technical stuff we will already know (we are the experts after all :D) but listen to what he says re relationships with the team... this guy is on the inside of the F1 circus so what he says cant be brushed off so easily. I also note what he says about JB as a driver ... his fans will like that. LH's fans will not be disappointed either.... the whole episode is worth watching actually. If you have time, its better that way as it puts the LH v JB comments in context.

#1668 hammibal

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:35

A win can never be meaningless a pole position can.

I guess it has a significance you dont understand

#1669 zack1994

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:38

Come lets be honest here. There hasn't been a peep or sound against qualifying stats until now. Why is that? The reason is simple. An inescapable fact has dawned on many Button fans and the truth hurts. This is uncomfortable for some, so they wish to diminish its significance. Racing post 2010 is a tyre management exercise, this is an inescapable fact, which plays into Buttons strength and this is the reason from my perspective why he is so competitive against Hamilton. I might be right, or wrong about the tyres being the reason Button is so competitive against Hamilton. But make no mistake, I'm not so deluded to not recognise Button is super competitive and if Hamilton is not totally on his game, he will get beat.

You got us :up:

#1670 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:57

Come lets be honest here. There hasn't been a peep or sound against qualifying stats until now. Why is that? The reason is simple. An inescapable fact has dawned on many Button fans and the truth hurts. This is uncomfortable for some, so they wish to diminish its significance. Racing post 2010 is a tyre management exercise, this is an inescapable fact, which plays into Buttons strength and this is the reason from my perspective why he is so competitive against Hamilton. I might be right, or wrong about the tyres being the reason Button is so competitive against Hamilton. But make no mistake, I'm not so deluded to not recognise Button is super competitive and if Hamilton is not totally on his game, he will get beat.

All that's missing is an 'any more' after the 'deluded'.
Why would anyone argue against the qualifying stats though?

#1671 zack1994

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:02

All that's missing is an 'any more' after the 'deluded'.
Why would anyone argue against the qualifying stats though?

:lol:

#1672 robefc

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:45

OK guys... take a break from the pre-weekend willy waving contests about procedural stuff like how to make up the scorecard :D

Check this out.. its driver trainer Rob Wilson on TFL talking about LH and JB among other drivers its from about 0:56:00 onwards ... most of the technical stuff we will already know (we are the experts after all :D) but listen to what he says re relationships with the team... this guy is on the inside of the F1 circus so what he says cant be brushed off so easily. I also note what he says about JB as a driver ... his fans will like that. LH's fans will not be disappointed either.... the whole episode is worth watching actually. If you have time, its better that way as it puts the LH v JB comments in context.


Thanks jj, awesome wtch, I could listen to that guy all day and then some.

Just slightly irritated he concentrated on mistakes/attitude and didn't address tyres sell at the end...nitpicking in the extreme!

edit - just got to the end. no idea why I tensed up when PW mentioned the vettel question and then smiled so broadly at the answer! :D

Edited by robefc, 12 April 2012 - 21:50.


#1673 zack1994

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 21:52

OK guys... take a break from the pre-weekend willy waving contests about procedural stuff like how to make up the scorecard :D

Check this out.. its driver trainer Rob Wilson on TFL talking about LH and JB among other drivers its from about 0:56:00 onwards ... most of the technical stuff we will already know (we are the experts after all :D) but listen to what he says re relationships with the team... this guy is on the inside of the F1 circus so what he says cant be brushed off so easily. I also note what he says about JB as a driver ... his fans will like that. LH's fans will not be disappointed either.... the whole episode is worth watching actually. If you have time, its better that way as it puts the LH v JB comments in context.

Nice one interesting guy :up:

#1674 Kvothe

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:18

Thanks jj, awesome wtch, I could listen to that guy all day and then some.

Just slightly irritated he concentrated on mistakes/attitude and didn't address tyres sell at the end...nitpicking in the extreme!

edit - just got to the end. no idea why I tensed up when PW mentioned the vettel question and then smiled so broadly at the answer! :D


Edit: My poster is a bit spoilerific, so if you haven't watched the latest episode of the flying lap (ep 65) and would like to do so skip over this post.

Yeah thanks to JJ,

he didn't really reveal anything new in regards to Lewis and Jenson but it was great to have confirmation from somebody else about things that have been touched upon on this board; ie that Jenson probably galvanises the team more then Lewis who lacks in this area probably a little bit. It was nice to hear that he didn't think Lewis should adjust his style.

Particularly significant I think was the point that Jenson is still learning and getting faster and faster, this comment would certainly seem to be backed up by his progression over the last few seasons. What would have been interesting is if he had delved more into the cause of that. For example could it be that because of the nature of the Pirelli's he's just learning to get more and more out of them, and would this progression, in terms of increase in pace, have been as assured on the bridgestones?

It was curious how many times he referred to Alonso and Lewis doing the same thing to get the most out of a lap. I wonder how much of that is natural intuition particularly on Lewis' part (I know he made reference to that) and how much was learnt and observed watching Fernando, something which Massa seems unable to cotton on to. Of course I've read several things which suggest that the reason Alonso was so frustrated with Lewis was because even after looking at the latter's telemetry, he was unable to understand why Lewis was faster, but it would be nice to calculate just how much Lewis benefited from having a team mate like Fernando.

I too tensed at the Vettel question, and clench my fist afterwards... not that it means much however, Vettel definitely has skills in his arsenal that Lewis doesn't, so a slight pace advantage over one lap, is almost negated.

Confused about his thought process at putting Kimi fastest over one lap particular because his stint in Ferrari with Massa as a team mate would suggest it may have been his race pace especially with his setting of fastest laps during the race, although I suppose that this might have been skewed by the Ferrari's tire warming issues and there is the point that Kimi tended set his fastest lap on fumes.

Realised I just wrote an essay......sorry....procrastination FTW!

Edited by Kvothe, 12 April 2012 - 22:20.


#1675 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:20

He wasn't beaten by alonso on Sundays as there's a little thing called the points system ahem and countback! :p

Obviously that's not how a 'scorecard' works but I don't have the time to go back and score their performances right now :p

For those 'defining' the scorecard - there is no such thing as an 'official scorecard', there was originally a versus thread where people kept a score of who dd better each race weekend, most people agreed on the score for 2010 although some people had different criteria, for instance rinehart awarded draws unless one of the guys significantly out performed the other.

Then the versus threads became scorecards and quali started being scored and Dunder introduced an idea where quali got 1 point and races 2...but none of these things are 'official'.

Personally I liked just having a winner each weekend that was the guy that finished in front unless significant no fault circumstances - Barcelona 2010 being a prime example.



That is just an arbitrary decision though on how the tiebreaker is applied. To me a head to head who finished in front of who would be a much better measure of who was better over the season and deserving of the higher placing. It takes those other point stealing drivers out of the equation. ;)


#1676 Kvothe

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:28

That is just an arbitrary decision though on how the tiebreaker is applied. To me a head to head who finished in front of who would be a much better measure of who was better over the season and deserving of the higher placing. It takes those other point stealing drivers out of the equation.;)


The problem is that it fails to factor in (in the form used by yourself) reliability issues (Turkey, Brazil) and poor team decisions (China) which means that it gives an inaccurate representation of who was better head to head over a season.

Of course it would be impossible to generate a fully satisfying measurement of who was the better driver over a season, especially with the variety of factors that can influence a result and particularly if the drivers are pretty close. Using the points system does however have the benefit of not only highlighting exceptional drives vis a vis their team mates (with the opposite also being true), but of also ensuring that Lewis did indeed beat Alonso :p

Edited by Kvothe, 12 April 2012 - 22:29.


#1677 robefc

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:48

That is just an arbitrary decision though on how the tiebreaker is applied. To me a head to head who finished in front of who would be a much better measure of who was better over the season and deserving of the higher placing. It takes those other point stealing drivers out of the equation.;)


It's as arbitrary as the points system...altho I don't think you're being serious! ;)

#1678 Watkins74

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 23:20

My apologies but I forget where we ended up after the last race. At Mclaren you get first call on pitting if you are ahead on WDC points or the the race?

Thanks

#1679 zack1994

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 23:23

My apologies but I forget where we ended up after the last race. At Mclaren you get first call on pitting if you are ahead on WDC points or the the race?

Thanks

Thats the one. Mclaren denied they gave the first call to the driver ahead on WDC points.

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#1680 MP422

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 23:42

Thats the one. Mclaren denied they gave the first call to the driver ahead on WDC points.


Source of that denial ?

#1681 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 23:54

The problem is that it fails to factor in (in the form used by yourself) reliability issues (Turkey, Brazil) and poor team decisions (China) which means that it gives an inaccurate representation of who was better head to head over a season.

Of course it would be impossible to generate a fully satisfying measurement of who was the better driver over a season, especially with the variety of factors that can influence a result and particularly if the drivers are pretty close. Using the points system does however have the benefit of not only highlighting exceptional drives vis a vis their team mates (with the opposite also being true), but of also ensuring that Lewis did indeed beat Alonso :p



The points are based on those realities anyway. Where there is a tie on points who finished ahead of the other seems simple enough to me, and it is head to head settled on the track stuff. As fair as it gets in F1, and no other drivers stats involved!

It's as arbitrary as the points system...altho I don't think you're being serious! ;)


Being serious enough! ;)

Points are very arbitrary, they even cause some drivers just to be cautious to 'collect' points. As well the value given to the places don't really give true value to the effort in taking or maintaining a position, some of those midfield battles are tooth and nail but the points awarded are small. Head to head seems less arbitrary to me especially when just comparing two drivers.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 13 April 2012 - 00:23.


#1682 Slartibartfast

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 00:54

OK guys... take a break from the pre-weekend willy waving contests about procedural stuff like how to make up the scorecard :D

Check this out.. its driver trainer Rob Wilson on TFL talking about LH and JB among other drivers its from about 0:56:00 onwards ... most of the technical stuff we will already know (we are the experts after all :D) but listen to what he says re relationships with the team... this guy is on the inside of the F1 circus so what he says cant be brushed off so easily. I also note what he says about JB as a driver ... his fans will like that. LH's fans will not be disappointed either.... the whole episode is worth watching actually. If you have time, its better that way as it puts the LH v JB comments in context.

Thanks for that link.

Rob Wilson confirmed some of my beliefs, punctured others and nearly floored me with a couple of his statements. We were also reminded that the greatest is, unfortunately, no longer with us.

#1683 zack1994

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:15

Source of that denial ?

Here
Robefc messaged f1fanatic about the situation then f1 fanatic messaged mclaren and they/mclaren denied it.

#1684 robefc

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:25

Being serious enough! ;)

Points are very arbitrary, they even cause some drivers just to be cautious to 'collect' points. As well the value given to the places don't really give true value to the effort in taking or maintaining a position, some of those midfield battles are tooth and nail but the points awarded are small. Head to head seems less arbitrary to me especially when just comparing two drivers.


I'd agree if there were only 2 cars in each race :)

#1685 robefc

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:35

Thanks for that link.

Rob Wilson confirmed some of my beliefs, punctured others and nearly floored me with a couple of his statements. We were also reminded that the greatest is, unfortunately, no longer with us.


Can you expand on that please? :)

#1686 revlec

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:03

@halifaxf1fan

You are still stuck in 2007(you are not the only one among Alonso fans on this board it seems), but you forget that only the 2 poor last races of that season save you from the embarassement. The fact that Lewis had not turn a F1 steering wheel before that season but finished in front of him, is an accomplishment itself.


Stop hurting yourself. Do you think that Perez, Grosjean, Vettel, Rosberg would have done the same if they had a Top car in their hand pairing a 2xWDC in their rookie season? Hell no. Evidence and stats(according to what they have achieved in their rookie seasons) tend to indicate that it would have not been the case.


We are in 2012, change your music please before it's too late. Thank you.

Edited by revlec, 13 April 2012 - 07:16.


#1687 as65p

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:15

@halifaxf1fan

You are still stuck in 2007(you are not the only one among Alonso fans on this board it seems), but you forget that only the 2 poor last races of that season save you from the embarassement. The fact that Lewis had not turn a F1 steering wheel before that season but finished in front of him, is an accomplishment itself.


BS.

#1688 bonjon1979a

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:02

Interesting comments from Jenson:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98744

Does anyone else feel like he's suggesting that normally when they're on the same strategy he can control the situation more? A sort of admission that he's the one who's got a best handle on what happens in the team. When lewis is down the grid, clearly the team will be doing whatever they can to move him up through the pack which may push Jenson.

I do think there is something a little bit strange going on in that they don't seem to be having a competition, ie pushing one another with tyre choices and changes. At the moment, it feels a bit like one of them gets in front and then they tell them to watch fuel, maintain position etc. It doesn't really feel like they're racing which is something I think Jenson benefits from. In this situation in China it seems that Jenson realises that it won't run like that as Lewis will be out of position.

#1689 Force Ten

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:15

It doesn't really feel like they're racing which is something I think Jenson benefits from.

Indeed, as Jenson is such a bad racer as 2011 amply proved.

#1690 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:19

I think they pretty much all acknowledge that Hamilton is the better qualifier.
Let's get back to how Mclaren are favouring Hamilton this weekend according to you.


Then they can avoid any and all qualifying discussion then, I guess?

Let's get back to me being objective? Make a strawman out of me though, it's much more simple for you that way and you can create lots of lame little arguments like this one like any blubbering man child is want. Or, grow up.

#1691 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:25

Lewis Hamilton has generally done pretty well on Sundays since he entered F1, if you go back and look at his record compared to his team mates.

However, that was not the case last year.

#1692 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:26

However, that was not the case last year.


Yeah, 4 out of 5 years he has finished above his teammates, he can lose to Button again this year and still have a decent record.

#1693 bonjon1979a

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:31

Indeed, as Jenson is such a bad racer as 2011 amply proved.


never said he was a bad racer. he's proved otherwise on numerous occasions. Just think that there's no one better than him at driving a smooth, controlled race and it helps him to have a stable situation where he's not being pressured by his team mate in the race because the team are playing a calm and steady strategy. Having hamilton mixing it up, doing something different is a concern. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamilton save at least one set of softs for qualifying which is something else for Jenson to think about.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 13 April 2012 - 09:32.


#1694 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:34

never said he was a bad racer. he's proved otherwise on numerous occasions. Just think that there's no one better than him at driving a smooth, controlled race and it helps him to have a stable situation where he's not being pressured by his team mate in the race because the team are playing a calm and steady strategy plays to his strengths. Having hamilton mixing it up, doing something different is a concern. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamilton save at least one set of softs for qualifying which is something else for Jenson to think about.


I think Button was just clearly faster than Hamilton in Australia - Lewis had the whole race to catch up and didn't find the pace to do so, he was free to pressure him but never did so. Couldn't tell anything too significant from Malaysia.

#1695 bonjon1979a

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:53

I think Button was just clearly faster than Hamilton in Australia - Lewis had the whole race to catch up and didn't find the pace to do so, he was free to pressure him but never did so. Couldn't tell anything too significant from Malaysia.


I agree that Button was faster. But Mclaren do seem to like to keep the status quo when the pair are line astern and this tends to happen with orderly pitstops (ie no one really trying to get the undercut and controlled engine modes). It happens the other way around too with Button holding station so I'm not suggesting it's a bias thing within the team. More that it's a way of doing things that suits Button. I'm just trying to understand Button's comments, that in some way this causes a problem for him as Lewis isn't going to be doing exactly the same thing as him, it's messier which is in Hamilton's favour slightly as he may be running the race in a different way. The point for me, is that usually Jenson doesn't have this headache as he knows what the plan will be for both of them and that this plan will be the same - which is odd considering they're supposed to be racing. I was surprised, for example, that hamilton went out again in Q3 in Oz and burnt another set of soft tyres which would've put a lot of pressure on Jenson. Hamilton came out less than 2 second behind Jenson on the first pitstop in Oz (albeit with Perez in front) and had he had a new set of softs things would've been far tighter. I'm not suggesting any conspiracy theories or anything like that, just analysing what JB has said.

#1696 trogggy

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:13

Then they can avoid any and all qualifying discussion then, I guess?

I can only imagine that acknowledging Hamilton is just better than Button (and possibly everyone else) in quali is some sort of slur on him.

Let's get back to me being objective? Make a strawman out of me though, it's much more simple for you that way and you can create lots of lame little arguments like this one like any blubbering man child is want. Or, grow up.

A strawman?

You claimed - on the basis of a tweet - that Button was favoured in Malaysia and Hamilton will be favoured in China.
You followed that up with 'I posted what was true..'

The principle would not apply in a wet race, even though it appeared to. I saw calls that looked wrong at the time and asked why is Button being allowed to undercut Lewis at every given opportunity? I then find out it's now their policy. Ignoring the wet race it's an interesting change in policy for them, as I said one that would favour Button more than the policy they've always had before.

No conspiracies, just observing facts, you're filling in the blanks, I'm the one being entirely objective.

I liked the last sentence particularly.

Where's the strawman?


#1697 Force Ten

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:36

Hamilton came out less than 2 second behind Jenson on the first pitstop in Oz (albeit with Perez in front)

When was that exactly?

#1698 bonjon1979a

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:44

When was that exactly?


He wasn't! i was reading a lap chart incorrectly!

#1699 Hulkster

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:53

I wonder how many races into the season it will be before we have a race where Hamilton doesn't lose out to something that happens in the garage or pit lane.

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#1700 velgajski1

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:00

I wonder how many races into the season it will be before we have a race where Hamilton doesn't lose out to something that happens in the garage or pit lane.


Luck (usually) evens out over a season. What is important is getting through damage limitation with as many points possible. In 2010. Hamilton had a lot of bad luck at start of the season and yet he was on a good way to WDC title before Monza and Singapore.