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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1901 robefc

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:24

The strategy for Lewis was good. His problem was the penalty he received for the gearbox change. I think they brought him in early to cover Webber.


:up:

Would need to replay the race with live timing but I think they were stuck between a rock and a hard place with Lewis's strategy.

Interesting they pitted lewis first in the first stint, presumably either to try and jump kimi/hold off webber or because he qualified first. Shows there is some flexibility in the strategy anyway.

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#1902 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:24

Like I said, great race from Jenson. Lewis did not impress me as much. Getting 3rd from where he started, is a good result. But at some points in the race, he had the opportunity to challenge Button, but he never threatened him. He did not show at all he had better pace, if anything, Lewis was slightly slower over the course of a stint, and he also had a harder time getting through the same traffic that Jenson had already gone through. That's my verdict.


Lewis made up more places, fought through harder traffic and yet finished right behind Jenson and that doesn't impress you the slightest?

Whatever posting goodwill you had is eroding quite fast.

#1903 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:24

I haven't previously, Singapore 2010 was the nearest I got.

But let me see, I've written 2 posts stating it will be difficult to call and stating that my opinion is 'at this stage', which is a fairly clear signal I am open to debate on this point.

I've then explained the reasons for my opinion...and your second sentence is your response? You can get fed up with other posters and call them pathetic all you like mate but if you respond like that rather than actually discussing the race sensibly then you're acting in exactly the same way, don't you think?

I did give my verdict here, somewhere. Hard to argue with 10 different Lewis fans anyway. I'm outnumbered and surrounded. :wave:

#1904 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:24

...and he also had a harder time getting through the same traffic that Jenson had already gone through. That's my verdict.


Not sure that's fair, Lewis came out behind different drivers to Button and by the time had got past them to the drivers Button had passed he was older rubber. Button had nice simple overtakes in the DRS generally which is no criticism - I'm sure he was setting them up for the back straight knowing him - but I don't think your assessment takes in all of the facts at all.

#1905 TomNokoe

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:25

Like I said, great race from Jenson. Lewis did not impress me as much. Getting 3rd from where he started, is a good result. But at some points in the race, he had the opportunity to challenge Button, but he never threatened him. He did not show at all he had better pace, if anything, Lewis was slightly slower over the course of a stint, and he also had a harder time getting through the same traffic that Jenson had already gone through. That's my verdict.

I have a feeling all Jenson fans will think this and it's such a simplistic view. The only time they lied together on track was the first stint, Hamilton on older tyres from quali and had a car between them, it was much harder to challenge, Jensons traffic fought him much less and his tyres were brand spanking new when he encountered traffic compared to Lewis who weren't in 100% condition, so it was much easier for Jenson.

#1906 P123

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:25

I think they brought him in early to cover Webber.


That's how I saw it.

#1907 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:25

The driver leading the championship was pitted first...strange coincidence!

He was also the faster qualifier... Interesting, right?

#1908 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:26

Lewis made up more places, fought through harder traffic and yet finished right behind Jenson and that doesn't impress you the slightest?

Whatever posting goodwill you had is eroding quite fast.

Nice to know I had posting goodwill. Had no idea.

#1909 bonjon1979a

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:26

Lewis got a penalty? Huh?


Demoted from 2nd to 7th on the grid. Otherwise he'd've been at the front and not held up by traffic running in 5th.

#1910 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:26

That's how I saw it.


But McLaren was clearly faster than Webber (and WEB would have hit some traffic eventually) so I don't understand why they did it.

#1911 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:26

:up:

Would need to replay the race with live timing but I think they were stuck between a rock and a hard place with Lewis's strategy.

Interesting they pitted lewis first in the first stint, presumably either to try and jump kimi/hold off webber or because he qualified first. Shows there is some flexibility in the strategy anyway.


Driver ahead in the championship pitted first ;)

#1912 undersquare

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:26

I can't split them today. No errors, same pace, good passing and defending. 2 top drives I think.

#1913 learningtobelost

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:27

The strategy for Lewis was good. His problem was the penalty he received for the gearbox change. I think they brought him in early to cover Webber.


This. Armchair strategists on here missing the blindingly obvious with this one. Lewis and later JB were forced into their pit schedule by the aggresive Red Bull strategy.

The only part of the race where traffic wasn't an issue was the first stint, where the pace seemed pretty equal between the two drivers. Lewis did a great job fighting his way through the traffic twice, JB had a much easier time of it but was never really in with a sniff of the win.

Pretty happy as a Mclaren fan after that one, the botched stop made it harder for Jenson, but ultiately didn't effect the result.

I'd call this one a draw personally.

#1914 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:27

Not sure that's fair, Lewis came out behind different drivers to Button and by the time had got past them to the drivers Button had passed he was older rubber. Button had nice simple overtakes in the DRS generally which is no criticism - I'm sure he was setting them up for the back straight knowing him - but I don't think your assessment takes in all of the facts at all.

Several times during the race, Hamilton could not get by drivers with DRS that Button did pass with DRS. Usually at the first try.

And I'm sure I don't take in all of the facts. Nobody here does.

#1915 robefc

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:27

I did give my verdict here, somewhere. Hard to argue with 10 different Lewis fans anyway. I'm outnumbered and surrounded. :wave:


Yeah great, you gave your verdict after your reply to me.

I'm interested in how you're accounting for the grid penalty because I haven't see you mention it.

#1916 Dalin80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:27

They really didn't if you were to pay attention to the sector times over the whole race and not only in a selected handful of laps.



When in clear air hamilton was the faster but unfortunately spent much more time behind someone, being stuck behind perez who was 2.5s off pace for several laps then led him to being stuck in the immense pack for the rest of the race. Without the bad stop for button and hamilton losing out so much time behind perez it would have been a easy 2nd and 3rd finish with much more pressure on rosberg and more representative showing of the cars pace.


I dont think either driver had a fully indicative result today and therefore my opinion is that this one is a draw.

#1917 Lazy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:28

And how exactly do you know this?


By watching live timing.

#1918 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:28

Not sure that's fair, Lewis came out behind different drivers to Button and by the time had got past them to the drivers Button had passed he was older rubber. Button had nice simple overtakes in the DRS generally which is no criticism - I'm sure he was setting them up for the back straight knowing him - but I don't think your assessment takes in all of the facts at all.

Several times during the race, Hamilton could not get by drivers with DRS that Button did pass with DRS. Usually at the first try.

And I'm sure I don't take in all of the facts. Nobody here does.

#1919 TheBunk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:29

Demoted from 2nd to 7th on the grid. Otherwise he'd've been at the front and not held up by traffic running in 5th.



Ahh, right.

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#1920 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:30

Then perhaps Hamilton shouldn't have started running out of tyres. He was losing time on Jenson for several laps, so pitted. Button didn't pit the next lap. He could've pitted later, but he didn't have the grip anymore.

Had he continued, people here would have complained that they kept him out too long due to lost time from tyre wear. Now he went in too early. It's never good enough and it's getting quit pathetic to read a lot of these comments here after every race.

:up:

#1921 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:30

Several times during the race, Hamilton could not get by drivers with DRS that Button did pass with DRS. Usually at the first try.

And I'm sure I don't take in all of the facts. Nobody here does.


Yeah, he did - but as I said in my post, Lewis had on a couple of occasions battled through more cars before hand - don't you think that would have an effect on the quality of his rubber? We know these tyres are fragile, we know running in traffic hurts your tyres, considering he ran through far more traffic you'd have to assume his tyres would have been weaker. I'm sure Button made those passes with far less fuss than Hamilton and he probably did do a better job on some, but it's not a black and white issue.

#1922 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:32

A good race from both of them. I'd say Button was significantly better today,but I'd call the weekend a draw.
The continual moaning about pitstops is pathetic though.
Hamilton pits after Button = Mclaren screwing him to slow him down because he needed to pit.
Hamilton pits before Button = Mclaren screwing him by putting him in traffic, he could obviously have gone longer.
Hamilton pits and passes Kimi in the pitstop = no, still Mclaren mistake, they should have kept him out.

If LH had been ahead on the track today and Button had pitted first there would have been major tantrums here. If he'd also then had a 9 second pitstop which brought JB back into contention...

#1923 Boxerevo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:34

Lights,sorry for my bad english but i have to say this about driving style and strategy.

I don't care if Hamilton loses some time to Button on the end of the stint,let Him lose some seconds 2 or 3s... but why always be dumb and put him on the worse traffic for him to lose 10 or 18 seconds against his REAL rival.

I can't and i will never understand this.

Edited by Boxerevo, 15 April 2012 - 09:36.


#1924 velgajski1

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:36

Both drivers were great today!

#1925 hammibal

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:36

Then perhaps Hamilton shouldn't have started running out of tyres. He was losing time on Jenson for several laps, so pitted. Button didn't pit the next lap. He could've pitted later, but he didn't have the grip anymore.

Had he continued, people here would have complained that they kept him out too long due to lost time from tyre wear. Now he went in too early. It's never good enough and it's getting quit pathetic to read a lot of these comments here after every race.

I believe the short second stint was caused by basically being on the wrong tyres as opposed to Rosberg who went onto the harder tyres

Like I said, great race from Jenson. Lewis did not impress me as much. Getting 3rd from where he started, is a good result. But at some points in the race, he had the opportunity to challenge Button, but he never threatened him. He did not show at all he had better pace, if anything, Lewis was slightly slower over the course of a stint, and he also had a harder time getting through the same traffic that Jenson had already gone through. That's my verdict.

I was surprised that Lewis couldnt pass Perez unlike Jenson who seemed to pass him quite easily that in itself was perhaps quite a key moment

#1926 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:37

Yeah great, you gave your verdict after your reply to me.

I'm interested in how you're accounting for the grid penalty because I haven't see you mention it.

The grid penalty has to be taken into account, and I did do that despite not mentioning it. Either way, the only way I could see this as a draw is if Lewis managed to finish with the actual gap to Button on merit. Then there would have been nothing between them. As it was, Button was on for a much much faster race time had that pit stop gone right. And I'm talking about a 20 second gap between Button and Hamilton at the finish line.

Also, if I visualize the race with Hamilton starting from P2, I don't think the race would've gone much differently, Lewis was struggling more with tyre management and ultimately that costed him time on crucial moments. Button could make this slight difference, meaning he theoretically could have had clear air in the last stint. He worked to get that, while Lewis never really made the difference to get in that position. It was really close between them, but that's because it was close with like 10 other cars as well.

#1927 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:38

Yeah, Lewis really struggled with Perez, he could never seem to get near him on the straight, seemed to be lacking the edge on traction out of the corner.

#1928 velgajski1

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:38

Lights,sorry for my bad english but i have to say this about driving style and strategy.

I don't care if Hamilton loses some time to Button on the end of the stint,let Him lose some seconds 2 or 3s... but why always be dumb and put him on the worse traffic for him to lose 10 or 18 seconds against his REAL rival.

I can't and i will never understand this.


You are thinking in terms of grid that is not packed together. Overall, today, probably better strategy was 2 stops (for those that could pull it off of course). But for 3 stopper, no matter what you do, you will get into traffic when grid is so close. Hamilton was just unlucky with gearbox penalty, otherwise he'd be in contention for win.

#1929 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:39

I believe the short second stint was caused by basically being on the wrong tyres as opposed to Rosberg who went onto the harder tyres


I was surprised that Lewis couldnt pass Perez unlike Jenson who seemed to pass him quite easily that in itself was perhaps quite a key moment

Same tyres as Jenson. But Jenson made them last longer.

And yes, moments like the one in bold is exactly what I'm talking about. Those did make the difference.

#1930 P123

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:39

Lights,sorry for my bad english but i have to say this about driving style and strategy.

I don't care if Hamilton loses some time to Button on the end of the stint,let Him lose some seconds 2 or 3s... but why always be dumb and put him on the worse traffic for him to lose 10 or 18 seconds.

I can't and i will never understand this.


They were covering Webber. Traffic was impossible to avoid really. But pitting ensured LH stayed ahead of Webber. The 2.5s JB was ahead also ensured that he had a couple less cars to make his way past after his first stop. Surprisingle everybody in this thread seemes to be missing all of this so entrenched are the BUtton mob in Hamilton being a tyre eater and the Hamilton mob in complaining about strategy... :rolleyes:

#1931 Bartel

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:39

I think Lewis ran a shorter 7th gear and Jenson, on an onboard Lewis was on the limiter hard when Jenson never touched his.

#1932 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:40

A good race from both of them. I'd say Button was significantly better today,but I'd call the weekend a draw.
The continual moaning about pitstops is pathetic though.
Hamilton pits after Button = Mclaren screwing him to slow him down because he needed to pit.
Hamilton pits before Button = Mclaren screwing him by putting him in traffic, he could obviously have gone longer.
Hamilton pits and passes Kimi in the pitstop = no, still Mclaren mistake, they should have kept him out.

If LH had been ahead on the track today and Button had pitted first there would have been major tantrums here. If he'd also then had a 9 second pitstop which brought JB back into contention...


On what basis, though?

This race is a draw, both drove well but it's probably a given that Lewis would have finished in front of Jenson had he started from 2nd.

#1933 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:40

Yeah, he did - but as I said in my post, Lewis had on a couple of occasions battled through more cars before hand - don't you think that would have an effect on the quality of his rubber? We know these tyres are fragile, we know running in traffic hurts your tyres, considering he ran through far more traffic you'd have to assume his tyres would have been weaker. I'm sure Button made those passes with far less fuss than Hamilton and he probably did do a better job on some, but it's not a black and white issue.

Fair enough, it makes sense that Lewis had to fight with more cars throughout the race. And it possibly could hurt his tyres more. But I'm not able to remember exactly which cars they were and how those fights went. Can't judge this right now.

#1934 Kvothe

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:41

Same tyres as Jenson. But Jenson made them last longer.

And yes, moments like the one in bold is exactly what I'm talking about. Those did make the difference.


Not to point out the obvious but Lewis was running behind Jenson for almost the entirety of the second stint, while Jenson had a much bigger gap to Nico ahead. Its no surprise Lewis's tires went away faster, what we can say is that his grid penalty put him in that position.

Edited by Kvothe, 15 April 2012 - 09:43.


#1935 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:41

I think Lewis ran a shorter 7th gear and Jenson, on an onboard Lewis was on the limiter hard when Jenson never touched his.


We saw in qualifying that Button was only marginally faster on the straight. Button did do a better job of looking after his tyres, as usual but I think Hamilton had harder traffic. After looking at replays and more data I guess Button wins this weekend but I thought both were brilliant and the difference between the two wasn't much.

#1936 anti

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:43

Comparison of the drivers Jenson Button VS Lewis Hamilton Race Chinese GP 2012 (link)

#1937 Boxerevo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:43

I will not take this away from Button,he is a master on setting up a DRS pass.

Lewis isn't as good as him on this,good for ham that he is on average better on the classic way.

Edited by Boxerevo, 15 April 2012 - 09:43.


#1938 zack1994

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:43

I can't split them today. No errors, same pace, good passing and defending. 2 top drives I think.

Simple as that :up:

#1939 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:43

The grid penalty has to be taken into account, and I did do that despite not mentioning it. Either way, the only way I could see this as a draw is if Lewis managed to finish with the actual gap to Button on merit. Then there would have been nothing between them. As it was, Button was on for a much much faster race time had that pit stop gone right. And I'm talking about a 20 second gap between Button and Hamilton at the finish line.

Also, if I visualize the race with Hamilton starting from P2, I don't think the race would've gone much differently, Lewis was struggling more with tyre management and ultimately that costed him time on crucial moments. Button could make this slight difference, meaning he theoretically could have had clear air in the last stint. He worked to get that, while Lewis never really made the difference to get in that position. It was really close between them, but that's because it was close with like 10 other cars as well.


Clean air race pace disagrees with your assessment. They were both evenly matched in all phases.

But I agree with you that it is a draw.

So... 3-0 Lewis on Qualifying, 1-1* in the race

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#1940 TomNokoe

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:43

A good race from both of them. I'd say Button was significantly better today,but I'd call the weekend a draw.
The continual moaning about pitstops is pathetic though.
Hamilton pits after Button = Mclaren screwing him to slow him down because he needed to pit.
Hamilton pits before Button = Mclaren screwing him by putting him in traffic, he could obviously have gone longer.
Hamilton pits and passes Kimi in the pitstop = no, still Mclaren mistake, they should have kept him out.

If LH had been ahead on the track today and Button had pitted first there would have been major tantrums here. If he'd also then had a 9 second pitstop which brought JB back into contention...

No, every situation is different, its about making the best decision, today the most important tthing was clean air, because it was so tight, the drivers were 2 seconds apart, with a car in between, so to me it doesn't seem like Button had earned the right to be ahead, and with the gap at two seconds, you'd expect both of them to come back out in no traffic, with the gap +-2 seconds, but Hamilton ended up 14 seconds behind Button.

#1941 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:43

I think Lewis ran a shorter 7th gear and Jenson, on an onboard Lewis was on the limiter hard when Jenson never touched his.

And there we have it, congratulations on being the clown this time around that pulls this out of the hat. You've had many before you, don't feel too embarrassed.

14 3 J. BUTTON 313.7 15:59:07
15 4 L. HAMILTON 313.5 15:45:34

#1942 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:43

I would never think LH would be leading WDC today after starting 7th so 3rd was as good as it gets,and even without JB's pitcock-up 2nd would be max I reckon........but...BUT...McLaren seriously need to get their sh** together ): ,both drivers saved their arses with their driving.

Scorecard 1-1 LH/pole...JB/race

#1943 TheBunk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:43

The continual moaning about pitstops is pathetic though.
Hamilton pits after Button = Mclaren screwing him to slow him down because he needed to pit.
Hamilton pits before Button = Mclaren screwing him by putting him in traffic, he could obviously have gone longer.
Hamilton pits and passes Kimi in the pitstop = no, still Mclaren mistake, they should have kept him out.

If LH had been ahead on the track today and Button had pitted first there would have been major tantrums here. If he'd also then had a 9 second pitstop which brought JB back into contention...



...the autosport server would be smoking and dying most probably ;)



#1944 speng

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:44

Lewis got a penalty? Huh?

:lol: :lol:
Yes

#1945 P123

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:44

Fair enough, it makes sense that Lewis had to fight with more cars throughout the race. And it possibly could hurt his tyres more. But I'm not able to remember exactly which cars they were and how those fights went. Can't judge this right now.


Yet you seem to be judging it...... although I do realise this is all about chest thumping idocy over who was better in a given race because it somehow matters a great deal to the few who keep the topic running :confused: ...... both got the maximum result possible as far as I can see, and bot deserve credit. But that's too much to ask from anybody in here it seems. :down:

#1946 ForzaGTR

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:44

For crying out loud kids, it's simple, Jenson won race day Lewis won qualifying. Why are you even arguing? The facts are there for us all to see. Jenson 2nd, Lewis 3rd

#1947 Kvothe

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:44

I can't split them today. No errors, same pace, good passing and defending. 2 top drives I think.


:up:

#1948 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:45

On what basis, though?

On the basis that he was faster, managed his tyres better and made passes (Perez for one) more easily.

This race is a draw, both drove well but it's probably a given that Lewis would have finished in front of Jenson had he started from 2nd.

Far from it.


#1949 Lazy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:45

Several times during the race, Hamilton could not get by drivers with DRS that Button did pass with DRS. Usually at the first try.

And I'm sure I don't take in all of the facts. Nobody here does.


Indeed, Jensons overtaking was more efficient as was his his tyre use. He executed his stategy better and Lewis was only close because of the pitstop. Lewis had to stop earlier because he was losing his tyres.

#1950 robefc

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:45

The grid penalty has to be taken into account, and I did do that despite not mentioning it. Either way, the only way I could see this as a draw is if Lewis managed to finish with the actual gap to Button on merit. Then there would have been nothing between them. As it was, Button was on for a much much faster race time had that pit stop gone right. And I'm talking about a 20 second gap between Button and Hamilton at the finish line.

Also, if I visualize the race with Hamilton starting from P2, I don't think the race would've gone much differently, Lewis was struggling more with tyre management and ultimately that costed him time on crucial moments. Button could make this slight difference, meaning he theoretically could have had clear air in the last stint. He worked to get that, while Lewis never really made the difference to get in that position. It was really close between them, but that's because it was close with like 10 other cars as well.


Button would have had a much quicker race time because Lewis was constantly stuck in traffic. He did have trouble with perez relative to button (I'd be interested in more info re:7th gear etc) but there was a hell of a lot more traffic than that.

The second stint is the only stint I can remember button having better pace than Lewis although it might also be the only comparable one too.

If Lewis started 2nd and button 6th I can't see how button would have beaten him personally.