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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#1951 zack1994

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:46

We saw in qualifying that Button was only marginally faster on the straight. Button did do a better job of looking after his tyres, as usual but I think Hamilton had harder traffic. After looking at replays and more data I guess Button wins this weekend but I thought both were brilliant and the difference between the two wasn't much.

Completely agree both were brilliant some great overtakes :up: .
What a great race it was but mclaren still not perfect at giving there drivers the best chance to win.
Bahrain should be good no tyre temperature problems for button in quali which is good.

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#1952 velgajski1

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:46

Lewis looks seriously strong this season, leading a WDC after 3 races where he had problems, I hope he keeps up this level of driving and some wins will come into his bag.

#1953 Hulkster

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:46

I think both drivers delivered the maximum they could today, given the hands the team dealt them.

No gearbox change for Hamilton and he probably took that race, certainly no lower than second. Might have challenged higher had he not been dropped into traffic but that was always going to be difficult to avoid.

Button might have challenged Rosberg for the win had it not been for the dodgy pit stop, which cost him about five seconds. Difficult to say where he would've dropped in to the track without that, with less traffic certainly but perhaps still a little bit. Might have got onto the back of him without it, impossible to say if he would've caught and passed him.

#1954 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:47

For crying out loud kids, it's simple, Jenson won race day Lewis won qualifying. Why are you even arguing? The facts are there for us all to see. Jenson 2nd, Lewis 3rd


The thing is that this result is affected by a penalty, which doesn't make it very fair.

Now, if you don't make the adjustment for the penalty, then we have to agree never to make adjustments and interpret every result at face value.



#1955 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:47

For crying out loud kids, it's simple, Jenson won race day Lewis won qualifying. Why are you even arguing? The facts are there for us all to see. Jenson 2nd, Lewis 3rd

That.
I'd call the weekend a draw.

#1956 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:48

A good race from both of them. I'd say Button was significantly better today,but I'd call the weekend a draw.

:confused:

#1957 hammibal

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:50

Lewis got a penalty? Huh?



Demoted from 2nd to 7th on the grid. Otherwise he'd've been at the front and not held up by traffic running in 5th.



Ahh, right.

Did you forget?

#1958 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:50

On the basis that he was faster, managed his tyres better and made passes (Perez for one) more easily.

Far from it.


You only cite one example. Poor. Lewis had to pass many more (and tougher) drivers.

http://en.mclarenf-1.....ewis Hamilton

Jenson beat Lewis 30 to 26 in the head to head. Considering that Lewis spent way more time in traffic, it's safe to say they were evenly matched (as two laps going Lewis's way makes the head-to-head tied). Which also renders your tyre management argument pointless.



#1959 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:50

Yet you seem to be judging it...... although I do realise this is all about chest thumping idocy over who was better in a given race because it somehow matters a great deal to the few who keep the topic running :confused: ...... both got the maximum result possible as far as I can see, and bot deserve credit. But that's too much to ask from anybody in here it seems. :down:


Hyperbole, a few of us have said both drivers were great.

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#1960 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:51

:confused:

Instead of writing :confused: why not read the post where I explain why I have that opinion?

:confused:

#1961 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:52

That.
I'd call the weekend a draw.


No. Jenson's qualifying was horrendous. 6th, half-a-second slower than Lewis (one of the largest teammates gap on Saturday). He was lucky Lewis got that penalty because he would have never seen Lewis's gearbox today had Lewis been starting from 2nd.

Lewis wins qualifying, the race is a draw.

Edited by slmk, 15 April 2012 - 09:52.


#1962 revlec

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:52

Call me mad, but i think drivers defend harder when against Lewis. The only exception is may be Di Resta.

Look at the difference for example when BUT and HAM got to pass VET on the long straight.

#1963 skyform

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:53

For crying out loud kids, it's simple, Jenson won race day Lewis won qualifying. Why are you even arguing? The facts are there for us all to see. Jenson 2nd, Lewis 3rd


Hamilton got 5 places grid penalty yet he finished right behind Button, Hamilton would have won or easily be 2nd infront of Button without the penalty and the race would go to him. Button only finished infront of Hamilton because of Hamilton's penalty.


#1964 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:53

Completely agree both were brilliant some great overtakes :up: .
What a great race it was but mclaren still not perfect at giving there drivers the best chance to win.
Bahrain should be good no tyre temperature problems for button in quali which is good.


But increased tyre management problems for Lewis! Button clearly had the edge on tyre management again today, slightly worrying that Lewis still hasn't got a proper grip on this rubber yet.

#1965 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:53

Comparison of the drivers Jenson Button VS Lewis Hamilton Race Chinese GP 2012 (link)

The second stint was absolutely crucial. Both could drive the pace they wanted, and Hamilton initially appeared a little quicker, but then his tyres wore off too soon, he started losing 0.35-0.4 per lap at least 3 laps in a row on Jenson until he pitted, resulting in a very short 2nd stint of 12 laps. Button's times remained more consistent, but he had to pit 2 laps after Lewis as well to cover Lewis/Webber etc. But after that pitstop, Jenson basically decided their fight already, with newer tyres and a gap between them that resulted in Jenson being in clean air and Lewis not being in clean air. Blame McLaren as much you want, the fact is that if Lewis was supposedly equal in performance to Jenson, he would have done that 2nd stint better. Instead he lost time and remained in traffic.

#1966 P123

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:53

Hyperbole, a few of us have said both drivers were great.


Maybe some positive progress for this topic then...

#1967 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:54

Lewis looks seriously strong this season,

Interestingly enough, so does Jenson for all the different reasons. Lewis seems to be having the consistency thing sorted while Jenson seems to be having Lewis' race pace sorted. It's gonna be a fascinating season.

#1968 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:55

I think both drivers delivered the maximum they could today, given the hands the team dealt them.

No gearbox change for Hamilton and he probably took that race, certainly no lower than second. Might have challenged higher had he not been dropped into traffic but that was always going to be difficult to avoid.

Button might have challenged Rosberg for the win had it not been for the dodgy pit stop, which cost him about five seconds. Difficult to say where he would've dropped in to the track without that, with less traffic certainly but perhaps still a little bit. Might have got onto the back of him without it, impossible to say if he would've caught and passed him.


Don't think Button had a chance of catching Rosberg today - even if Lewis had started 2nd he wouldn't have been close to Rosberg either I reckon.

#1969 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:57

The second stint was absolutely crucial. Both could drive the pace they wanted, and Hamilton initially appeared a little quicker, but then his tyres wore off too soon, he started losing 0.35-0.4 per lap at least 3 laps in a row on Jenson until he pitted, resulting in a very short 2nd stint of 12 laps. Button's times remained more consistent, but he had to pit 2 laps after Lewis as well to cover Lewis/Webber etc. But after that pitstop, Jenson basically decided their fight already, with newer tyres and a gap between them that resulted in Jenson being in clean air and Lewis not being in clean air. Blame McLaren as much you want, the fact is that if Lewis was supposedly equal in performance to Jenson, he would have done that 2nd stint better. Instead he lost time and remained in traffic.


Gap at the start of the stint: 1.9 second
Gap at the end of the stint: 2.5 seconds

Jenson went a lap longer. So much for Lewis' poor tyre management skills. It wasn't great but it was far from apocalyptic. So I fail to see your point.

#1970 gincarnated

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:57

On the basis that he was faster, managed his tyres better and made passes (Perez for one) more easily.

Far from it.

Perez is not the best example for that point. By the time Lewis caught Perez his tyres were much older than when Jenson passed him.

#1971 Anomnader

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:57

I don't really see the point of arguing. They both performed great today, Button had a horrible pitstop and Lewis kept getting dropped into traffic, Buttons overtaking gets better and better whereas Lewis seems timid

#1972 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:58

Call me mad, but i think drivers defend harder when against Lewis. The only exception is may be Di Resta.

Look at the difference for example when BUT and HAM got to pass VET on the long straight.

See in that what you want to see. What I see is Vettel defending harder on Hamilton because he actually thinks he has a chance to make it work, because Hamilton already got in his DRS zone a couple of times but was never really close enough under braking.

True, Button was stuck behind Vettel for quite some time too. But the first time he really attacked Vettel he got it done in one take.

Ironically, this is also the reason why Hamilton used to be magnificent in overtaking. The ruthlessness he had was mindblowing. But you have to realize that this is a combination of pace + overtaking skill, not only the latter.

Edited by Lights, 15 April 2012 - 09:58.


#1973 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:59

If Lewis started 2nd and button 6th I can't see how button would have beaten him personally.


Lewis would be up the road 20 seconds "if" he had started where he qualified,JB is fortunate everything's going his way,LH penalty,MS tire,cool 2nd,whilst Lewis been screwed all 3 races to no fault of his own yet he still leads WDC.

If I wasn't his fan I'd hate to see his string of good fortune.It can't go wrong every race/weekend can it?

#1974 AFistfulofEastwood

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:59

A bit dissapointing from both But and Ham this weekend. Probably should have 1-2'd it and shouldnt have been fighting with Red Bull.

#1975 SuperSoft

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:59

I was surprised that Lewis couldnt pass Perez unlike Jenson who seemed to pass him quite easily that in itself was perhaps quite a key moment


Yeah, but I think people here are forgetting how DRS actually works.

You don't really get an advantage from DRS when the car in front of you also has DRS.

There were a couple of times I was shouting for Jenson to hurry up and put some air between the car he had just passed to allow Lewis to also gain a DRS advantage. Problem is that if the car in front of you is getting a tow from someone he has just been passed by it can be a couple of laps before he is out of the DRS zone.

Lewis spent much of the race behind trains and therefore had no DRS advantage.

Button, who was not in trains all day could use his DRS more effectively.

Brilliant drives from both however, what two excellent drivers we have.

#1976 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:59

Perez is not the best example for that point. By the time Lewis caught Perez his tyres were much older than when Jenson passed him.

So were Checo's. Overall it seemed that Button was slightly better at getting through traffic that was in front of him.

#1977 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:59

Instead of writing :confused: why not read the post where I explain why I have that opinion?

:confused:

I've read your post and still can't qualify the use of that adjective. But each to their own.

#1978 NoDivergence

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:00

I don't really see the point of arguing. They both performed great today, Button had a horrible pitstop and Lewis kept getting dropped into traffic, Buttons overtaking gets better and better whereas Lewis seems timid


Lewis was outbraking people left and right. He knew when to wait to limit the risk and when to go for it. I'm impressed with his maturity, learned a lot from last year

#1979 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:01

See in that what you want to see. What I see is Vettel defending harder on Hamilton because he actually thinks he has a chance to make it work, because Hamilton already got in his DRS zone a couple of times but was never really close enough under braking.

True, Button was stuck behind Vettel for quite some time too. But the first time he really attacked Vettel he got it done in one take.

Ironically, this is also the reason why Hamilton used to be magnificent in overtaking. The ruthlessness he had was mindblowing. But you have to realize that this is a combination of pace + overtaking skill, not only the latter.


What?

If I recall correctly, it wasn't Lewis who ruined his race by ramming that HRT 3 weeks ago. Lewis' overtaking today has been good, but so has Jenson. I don't get why everything has to be so meticulously analyzed. They both did the best they could have today; McLaren, under today's circumstances, wouldn't have done better than 2-3, which they did - the order could have been different but ultimately, the driver starting the race in front, ended in front, though by a smaller margin than at the start.

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#1980 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:01

Lewis would be up the road 20 seconds "if" he had started where he qualified,JB is fortunate everything's going his way

Indeed. His last pitstop was a gem to watch for every Button fan high fiving each other for the amazing luck their driver had.

#1981 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:01

Gap at the start of the stint: 1.9 second
Gap at the end of the stint: 2.5 seconds

Jenson went a lap longer. So much for Lewis' poor tyre management skills. It wasn't great but it was far from apocalyptic. So I fail to see your point.

2 laps longer.

And you really fail to realize that the gap wasn't even 2.5. If you compare Lewis' inlap to Jenson's 2 laps later, that's another ~0.5 second he lost there. When Lewis actually pitted, the gap was 3 seconds to Button. He lost 1.3 seconds in 3 laps. And every lap he continued, he would lose that 4-5 tenths again, or perhaps even more. That's why he had to pit. And that's why it's ignorant to complain about McLaren supposedly pitting Lewis too early. They didn't, Lewis was losing time and had he continued he could have been dropped even further back in traffic.

#1982 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:02

Perez is not the best example for that point. By the time Lewis caught Perez his tyres were much older than when Jenson passed him.


Exactly my point - on more than one occasion he was close in the corner before the DRS straight then lost is all on traction out of the corner, he'd worked hard to get to Perez and consequently his tyres weren't tip top. Button is obviously better at looking after his rubber anyway so some of the difference lies there but to ignore the traffic that Lewis had is willfully ignorant.

#1983 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:03

I don't really see the point of arguing. They both performed great today, Button had a horrible pitstop and Lewis kept getting dropped into traffic, Buttons overtaking gets better and better whereas Lewis seems timid


Ham had 3-4-5-6? passes without DRS whilst JB had all or most of his with? How's that better?Or timid on Lewis?

#1984 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:03

On what basis, though?

This race is a draw, both drove well but it's probably a given that Lewis would have finished in front of Jenson had he started from 2nd.

This place is a joke! Jenson 18 points Lewis 15 points. How did you come to the conclusion that it was a draw? Yes Hamilton had a grid penalty, but that is racing. Get over it.

#1985 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:04

See in that what you want to see. What I see is Vettel defending harder on Hamilton because he actually thinks he has a chance to make it work, because Hamilton already got in his DRS zone a couple of times but was never really close enough under braking.

True, Button was stuck behind Vettel for quite some time too. But the first time he really attacked Vettel he got it done in one take.

Ironically, this is also the reason why Hamilton used to be magnificent in overtaking. The ruthlessness he had was mindblowing. But you have to realize that this is a combination of pace + overtaking skill, not only the latter.


Lewis was also overtaking a lot of people under breaking whereas Button did a lot on outright pace on the DRS straight, once again, one method damages your tyres a lot more - perhaps a criticism you could lay at Hamilton but he wasn't having much joy on the DRS straight all race long so he often looked elsewhere.

#1986 gincarnated

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:04

So were Checo's. Overall it seemed that Button was slightly better at getting through traffic that was in front of him.

They were older but he was running in clean air whilst Lewis had to pass 2(3?) people before he even caught him.

#1987 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:05

Indeed. His last pitstop was a gem to watch for every Button fan high fiving each other for the amazing luck their driver had.


Rosberg would still be 16-17 seconds ahead and if we you believe MW he said 2nd was max.

#1988 revlec

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:05

See in that what you want to see. What I see is Vettel defending harder on Hamilton because he actually thinks he has a chance to make it work, because Hamilton already got in his DRS zone a couple of times but was never really close enough under braking.

True, Button was stuck behind Vettel for quite some time too. But the first time he really attacked Vettel he got it done in one take.

Ironically, this is also the reason why Hamilton used to be magnificent in overtaking. The ruthlessness he had was mindblowing. But you have to realize that this is a combination of pace + overtaking skill, not only the latter.


Take the "timid" overtake of BUT on VET on the straight.
a couple of laps after that, VET had to send HAM on the marbles to stay ahead.

Nothing wrong with that, but you can clearly see that VET, Maldonado or MAS are harder with Lewis. Maldonado and MAS will prefer to crash if sure to DNF with Lewis.

The early move drivers often do(Schumacher in Monza for example) to mess your racing line is rarely displayed when fighting with BUT.

#1989 NoDivergence

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:06

How many places did Jenson go up. How many places did Hamilton make up. There's your answer. Jenson gets the draw since he finished ahead

#1990 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:06

Lewis was outbraking people left and right. He knew when to wait to limit the risk and when to go for it. I'm impressed with his maturity, learned a lot from last year


My butt cheeks were tweaking when he passed Massa!

#1991 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:06

Lewis was also overtaking a lot of people under breaking whereas Button did a lot on outright pace on the DRS straight, once again, one method damages your tyres a lot more - perhaps a criticism you could lay at Hamilton but he wasn't having much joy on the DRS straight all race long so he often looked elsewhere.

The Button one on Vettel was definitely on the breaking though. The one that really mattered and was the hardest.

#1992 SuperSoft

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:06

Ironically, this is also the reason why Hamilton used to be magnificent in overtaking. The ruthlessness he had was mindblowing. But you have to realize that this is a combination of pace + overtaking skill, not only the latter.


Jenson was doing most of his overtaking today with a DRS advantage. Hamilton, due to being a few places back for most of the race, and therefore behind cars who were also in DRS zones could not use any DRS advantage.

Effectively this means that Button had DRS and Hamilton didn't.

#1993 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:07

2 laps longer.


Lewis pitted a lap earlier than Jenson, so his stint started earlier. Hence, JB's stint was only 1 lap longer.

#1994 NoDivergence

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:07

Mine were twitching

#1995 hammibal

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:07

Same tyres as Jenson. But Jenson made them last longer.

Jenson pitted 2 laps after Lewis, his tyes were only 1 lap older, Rosberg pitted 12 laps after Jenson, Rosberg's pace before Lewis and Jenson pitted was just as good as the McLaren drivers, dont you think that perhaps Mclaren opted for the wrong tyres?



#1996 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:07

Indeed. His last pitstop was a gem to watch for every Button fan high fiving each other for the amazing luck their driver had.


Ultimately it had no effect on his finishing position though - bad luck of course but with no tangible effects, he was never going to win the race.

#1997 Anomnader

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:08

Ham had 3-4-5-6? passes without DRS whilst JB had all or most of his with? How's that better?Or timid on Lewis?


He just seems more careful and I suppose he is from the lewis of old, it might be better then the gung oh he was before but it took a long time to pass a locking up Perez, a few years ago he'd have being right past.

#1998 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:08

The Button one on Vettel was definitely on the breaking though. The one that really mattered and was the hardest.


I said Button did 'a lot', I didn't say he never overtook under breaking. Vettel gave Hamilton a harder time than he gave Button too, just because it was closer to the end of the race.

#1999 robefc

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:10

Lewis was also overtaking a lot of people under breaking whereas Button did a lot on outright pace on the DRS straight, once again, one method damages your tyres a lot more - perhaps a criticism you could lay at Hamilton but he wasn't having much joy on the DRS straight all race long so he often looked elsewhere.


This is why I was interested in info on 7th gear, Lewis seemed to be overtaking under braking whilst other drivers were just blowing right by.

Not sure if there is another explanation for it, not driving the lap in order to minimise distance behind off the corner before the straight maybe.

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#2000 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:10

How many places did Jenson go up. How many places did Hamilton make up. There's your answer. Jenson gets the draw since he finished ahead

How much ahead was Jenson until McLaren pit-crew deliberately screwed him to help Lewis stay within fighting distance?


The sentence above should be taken as sarcasm - in it's ridiculousness worthy of the opinion it was replying to.