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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#2001 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:11

Take the "timid" overtake of BUT on VET on the straight.
a couple of laps after that, VET had to send HAM on the marbles to stay ahead.

Nothing wrong with that, but you can clearly see that VET, Maldonado or MAS are harder with Lewis. Maldonado and MAS will prefer to crash if sure to DNF with Lewis.

The early move drivers often do(Schumacher in Monza for example) to mess your racing line is rarely displayed when fighting with BUT.

Yeah I can't for the life of me visualize Massa defending against Button, he usually just lets him by.... :confused: (see Melbourne 2011, Sepang 2012)

Also, give me one 'early move' performed by Jenson Button in his career.

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#2002 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:12

This is why I was interested in info on 7th gear, Lewis seemed to be overtaking under braking whilst other drivers were just blowing right by.

Not sure if there is another explanation for it, not driving the lap in order to minimise distance behind off the corner before the straight maybe.

I think he may have been losing time exiting the corner that leads onto the back straight. I think this is an area where he needs to improve.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 15 April 2012 - 10:14.


#2003 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:13

I don't know if it's selective memory, or perhaps a consequence of setup preference, but Lewis seems to have less than his share of DRS success.

#2004 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:13

Lewis pitted a lap earlier than Jenson, so his stint started earlier. Hence, JB's stint was only 1 lap longer.

Nice of you to ignore the rest, but I can understand why.

Edited by Lights, 15 April 2012 - 10:13.


#2005 PARAZAR

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:14

Take the "timid" overtake of BUT on VET on the straight.
a couple of laps after that, VET had to send HAM on the marbles to stay ahead.

Nothing wrong with that, but you can clearly see that VET, Maldonado or MAS are harder with Lewis. Maldonado and MAS will prefer to crash if sure to DNF with Lewis.

The early move drivers often do(Schumacher in Monza for example) to mess your racing line is rarely displayed when fighting with BUT.


Have you seen Massa defending against Button? Massa is a difficult driver to overtake, he makes it hard on everyone not just Lewis. Overall today was an excellent race, there was mostly nothing between the first 10, the traffic was crazy and so much overtaking. I think both Lewis and Jenson did as much as they could have today but I would have really liked for Jenson to at least have had the chance to challenge for the win. The botched pit stop ensured that wouldn't happen but this is F1 and these things happen, so tough luck. So great job from both of them! Lewis is now first with Jenson 2 points behind him.

#2006 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:15

This is why I was interested in info on 7th gear, Lewis seemed to be overtaking under braking whilst other drivers were just blowing right by.

Not sure if there is another explanation for it, not driving the lap in order to minimise distance behind off the corner before the straight maybe.

Perhaps Lewis did not get as good exit speeds out of the crucial corners? I remember Jenson once saying that he likes to use his KERS a bit differently than normal when he is about to overtake people. I've noticed this before, Jenson tended to hold all his KERS at bay over a lap and then burst ALL of it at once on the corner he was about to get a good run on his mark, while Lewis was using it all over the place in short splutters.

#2007 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:15

Jenson pitted 2 laps after Lewis, his tyes were only 1 lap older, Rosberg pitted 12 laps after Jenson, Rosberg's pace before Lewis and Jenson pitted was just as good as the McLaren drivers, dont you think that perhaps Mclaren opted for the wrong tyres?

Perhaps McLaren did choice the wrong tyres, because on their wall they wrote something about the 'prime tyre working well for others' before the 2nd round of pitstops. Do not see the relevance however with Jenson vs Lewis.

#2008 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:17

Perhaps Lewis did not get as good exit speeds out of the crucial corners? I remember Jenson once saying that he likes to use his KERS a bit differently than normal when he is about to overtake people. I've noticed this before, Jenson tended to hold all his KERS at bay over a lap and then burst ALL of it at once on the corner he was about to get a good run on his mark, while Lewis was using it all over the place in short splutters.

Pretty sure most drivers figured out by now how they should use their KERS. Have seen Lewis use his well enough in previous races.

#2009 robefc

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:17

I think he may have been losing time exiting the corner that leads onto the back straight. I think this is an area where he needs to improve.


Yeah that's s what I meant but I can't think why it would be the case. I can distinctly remembere brundle in commentary remarking on lewis's lack of traction off a corner onto the back straight in a race ages ago, it might have been v jenson turkey 2010, really can't remember but it was a race where he was quicker than the car in front but losing time at the start of the straight - anyhow I think that one was set up related.

#2010 skyform

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:17

How much ahead was Jenson until McLaren pit-crew deliberately screwed him to help Lewis stay within fighting distance?


The sentence above should be taken as sarcasm - in it's ridiculousness worthy of the opinion it was replying to.


Button would never be ahead of Hamilton without Hamilton's penalty. You know Hamilton won't get a penalty every race, if Button continues to qualify as bad as this week then Hamilton will beat him every race comfortably. The race is of course more important but in some races quality is way more important than some people think.

#2011 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:18

This is why I was interested in info on 7th gear, Lewis seemed to be overtaking under braking whilst other drivers were just blowing right by.

Not sure if there is another explanation for it, not driving the lap in order to minimise distance behind off the corner before the straight maybe.


Speed trap data from yesterday showed Button to only be marginally quicker than Lewis on the straight, not enough to make a significant difference.

#2012 Kvothe

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:18

Yeah that's s what I meant but I can't think why it would be the case. I can distinctly remembere brundle in commentary remarking on lewis's lack of traction off a corner onto the back straight in a race ages ago, it might have been v jenson turkey 2010, really can't remember but it was a race where he was quicker than the car in front but losing time at the start of the straight - anyhow I think that one was set up related.


I believe it was China 2011, when Lewis seemed to be getting poor traction out of turn 13.

#2013 robefc

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:18

Perhaps Lewis did not get as good exit speeds out of the crucial corners? I remember Jenson once saying that he likes to use his KERS a bit differently than normal when he is about to overtake people. I've noticed this before, Jenson tended to hold all his KERS at bay over a lap and then burst ALL of it at once on the corner he was about to get a good run on his mark, while Lewis was using it all over the place in short splutters.


Hmmm, Lewis mentioned in the press conference having to use all his kers on the straight to catch before DRS, which would seem a sensible use of it.

#2014 zack1994

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:18

Button would never be ahead of Hamilton without Hamilton's penalty. You know Hamilton won't get a penalty every race, if Button continues to qualify as bad as this week then Hamilton will beat him every race comfortably. The race is of course more important but in some races quality is way more important than some people think.

Tyre temperature won't be a problem next week.

#2015 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:19

Button would never be ahead of Hamilton without Hamilton's penalty. You know Hamilton won't get a penalty every race, if Button continues to qualify as bad as this week then Hamilton will beat him every race comfortably. The race is of course more important but in some races quality is way more important than some people think.

:drunk: What planet are you on?

#2016 jjcale

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:20

Take the "timid" overtake of BUT on VET on the straight.
a couple of laps after that, VET had to send HAM on the marbles to stay ahead.

Nothing wrong with that, but you can clearly see that VET, Maldonado or MAS are harder with Lewis. Maldonado and MAS will prefer to crash if sure to DNF with Lewis.

The early move drivers often do(Schumacher in Monza for example) to mess your racing line is rarely displayed when fighting with BUT.


Yes its true... it looks like LK is getting a bit of "blowback" from being super aggressive in his early career... or maybe its actually respect eg all the driver tend to be harder with MS yet they all think he is a legend ... and we also see drivers put up a spirited fight against FA ... but on the other hand JB is a really smart overtaker and he does make it look easy.

#2017 mich

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:20

Hmmm, Lewis is poor at overtaking!
Lewis with new tyre always doesn't overtake Perez with old one.

#2018 skyform

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:22

Tyre temperature won't be a problem next week.



Yeah next week, but there can be a lot of cold races in Europe.

Edited by skyform, 15 April 2012 - 10:23.


#2019 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:22

I believe it was China 2011, when Lewis seemed to be getting poor traction out of turn 13.


Yup, same corner as today - I did question if he'd identified that as an area of high tyre wear at the time because when you saw him following Button he'd always come off the corner so much slower but looking at his tyre wear today I'd say it's less likely.

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#2020 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:23

Pretty sure most drivers figured out by now how they should use their KERS. Have seen Lewis use his well enough in previous races.

Sure. The Button quote was about Monza '11 and he was reasonably good at passing people there. The different KERS work I notified on another race at the end of the season where he also seemed to be doing better than LH at overtaking... don't remember which one anymore. What Button seems to be good is being successful when he is "going in for the kill". Beware the nice ones, indeed.

#2021 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:24

He just seems more careful and I suppose he is from the lewis of old, it might be better then the gung oh he was before but it took a long time to pass a locking up Perez, a few years ago he'd have being right past.


A few years ago there were Bridgestones and no need for "nursing" now you have make a pass whilst not locking up or degrading your tires therefore Lewis' Pirelli passes are more impressive IMO,given his harder style.

#2022 jjcale

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:24

Perhaps Lewis did not get as good exit speeds out of the crucial corners? I remember Jenson once saying that he likes to use his KERS a bit differently than normal when he is about to overtake people. I've noticed this before, Jenson tended to hold all his KERS at bay over a lap and then burst ALL of it at once on the corner he was about to get a good run on his mark, while Lewis was using it all over the place in short splutters.


This ... I noticed it last year as well... LH goes into corners faster whereas JB has a more classical style so he gets a better exit, which is really telling on a long straight

#2023 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:27

A few years ago there were Bridgestones and no need for "nursing" now you have make a pass whilst not locking up or degrading your tires therefore Lewis' Pirelli passes are more impressive IMO,given his harder style.

Did Perez look like he was "nursing" his tyres. He kept Hamilton behind though didn't he.

#2024 Kvothe

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:27

Yup, same corner as today - I did question if he'd identified that as an area of high tyre wear at the time because when you saw him following Button he'd always come off the corner so much slower but looking at his tyre wear today I'd say it's less likely.


Yeah I thought that too, and thought it was instrumental in winning the race. Today during the battles for position DC mentioned him power sliding a lot and I think this may have offset the tire saving off turn 13 somewhat, as well as being in a hailstorm of traffic.

#2025 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:27

Sure. The Button quote was about Monza '11 and he was reasonably good at passing people there. The different KERS work I notified on another race at the end of the season where he also seemed to be doing better than LH at overtaking... don't remember which one anymore. What Button seems to be good is being successful when he is "going in for the kill". Beware the nice ones, indeed.

The thing is that in the end it has a lot to do with... surprise: race pace. We have had plenty of races in for instance 2010 where Hamilton overtook someone and Button could not repeat this. This is where all the "Jenson can't overtake he just sits there and waits" nonsense started. While it's much more reasonable to think that Lewis just had that extra few tenths over a lap that enabled him to make the pass work, while Jenson just missed that little bit of cornerning exit speed, resulting in less slipstream, resulting in being stuck. This is seriously underrated in overtaking. Now people can see it from a different perspective.

#2026 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:30

I still think Hamilton's 7th gear was not set correctly for DRS, he seemed to be hitting the limiter way too early from the in-car shots compared to Button.

#2027 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:31

I still think Hamilton's 7th gear was not set correctly for DRS, he seemed to be hitting the limiter way too early from the in-car shots compared to Button.

14 3 J. BUTTON 313.7 15:59:07
15 4 L. HAMILTON 313.5 15:45:34

#2028 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:36

Now people can see it from a different perspective.

... or not ;) Which one would you bet your money at? :)


#2029 revlec

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:38

14 3 J. BUTTON 313.7 15:59:07
15 4 L. HAMILTON 313.5 15:45:34


Speed means nothing if you reach that maximum value with 50 metres left before the braking zone.
Acceleration is the key and certainly a good exit speed will help you to achieve that speed faster.

#2030 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:40

Speed means nothing if you reach that maximum value with 50 metres left before the braking zone.
Acceleration is the key and certainly a good exit speed will help you to achieve that speed faster.

Err? It was merely a responds to someone arguing that Hamilton hit the limiter sooner than Button.

#2031 Dalin80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:42

Hmmm, Lewis is poor at overtaking!
Lewis with new tyre always doesn't overtake Perez with old one.


Lewis pitted for a new tyres only a lap or so after, they were both on old tyres.

#2032 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:42

Speed means nothing if you reach that maximum value with 50 metres left before the braking zone.
Acceleration is the key and certainly a good exit speed will help you to achieve that speed faster.

To me it looked like Jenson was getting a better exit onto the back straight, meaning he perhaps didn't need to top out in 7th with DRS engaged.

#2033 revlec

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:45

Err? It was merely a responds to someone arguing that Hamilton hit the limiter sooner than Button.


I'm aware they use the same engine, but it's not that simple looking at top speed figures to determine who hitted the limiter first.
Fact is BUT on the DRS zone could come much closer to others while HAM could not.



#2034 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:46

Err? It was merely a responds to someone arguing that Hamilton hit the limiter sooner than Button.

And how would you know by that at which part of the straight the top speed was achieved? JB did look to have faster acceleration right away in almost every corner for whatever reason,his style/ability I don't know,but those #s mean nothing.

#2035 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:51

It's a shame out about the gearbox penalty and schumacher retiring.

Hamilton could have put in a serious lead in the WDC.

With Mercedes looking quick in qualifying, I just wonder how much they will start affecting Button in getting between him and Hamilton who has those extra 2 tenths in his pocket in qualifying. I mean a P5 quali by Button is gonna hamper him.

Hamilton must be so annoyed that he's done 3 error free race weekends and in theory should now have 75 pts on the board but doesn't down to team strategy.

Edited by ZooL, 15 April 2012 - 10:53.


#2036 jrg19

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:53

It's a shame out about the gearbox penalty and schumacher retiring.

Hamilton could have put in a serious lead in the WDC.

With Mercedes looking quick in qualifying, I just wonder how much they will start affecting Button in getting between him and Hamilton who has those extra 2 tenths in his pocket in qualifying.

Hamilton must be so annoyed that he's done 3 error free race weekends and in theory should now have 75 pts on the board but doesn't down to team strategy.


Ive been thinking about this it could be the story of the season if Lewis gets front rows consistently with the Mercedes pair and Vettel possibly getting ahead of Button.

Edited by jrg19, 15 April 2012 - 10:54.


#2037 Boxerevo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:55

It's a shame out about the gearbox penalty and schumacher retiring.

Hamilton could have put in a serious lead in the WDC.

With Mercedes looking quick in qualifying, I just wonder how much they will start affecting Button in getting between him and Hamilton who has those extra 2 tenths in his pocket in qualifying. I mean a P5 quali by Button is gonna hamper him.

Hamilton must be so annoyed that he's done 3 error free race weekends and in theory should now have 75 pts on the board but doesn't down to team strategy.

bs mate,i think hamilton couldn't win any of these races.

Button was better on the first one,on the second alonso/perez were fasters and now he got a hell of race to do and rosberg i think was peerless.

I think he could get one third and two seconds with all perfect.

Edited by Boxerevo, 15 April 2012 - 10:56.


#2038 revlec

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:58

Ive been thinking about this it could be the story of the season if Lewis gets front rows consistently with the Mercedes pair and Vettel possibly getting ahead of Button.


I don't think so. BUT will outqualify HAM sometimes(Monaco for example or Barcellona) this year and we don't know if Mercedes will be competitive in the next races.
One thing is sure though: RB will win atleast once this year or even bag a Pole positon.


McLaren(and their drivers) had to capitalize this first 3 races, but they failed miserably. Had VET had this kind of team in 2011, BUT could have had a shot to the WDC last year.

#2039 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:01

bs mate,i think hamilton couldn't win any of these races.

Button was better on the first one,on the second alonso/perez were fasters and now he got a hell of race to do and rosberg i think was peerless.

I think he could get one third and two seconds with all perfect.

Thing is your talking a tenth here or there.

I'm talking about Hamilton having the opportunity to control the race from the front, team errors have robbed him of that opportunity.

Race 1 - Hamilton said the team changed his start settings at the last minute, he then got poor launch.
Race 2 - safety car timing unluck, but stint 1 demonstrated how he was controlling the race
Race 3 - gearbox change 5 place penalty.

Edited by ZooL, 15 April 2012 - 11:07.


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#2040 bonjon1979a

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:01

bs mate,i think hamilton couldn't win any of these races.

Button was better on the first one,on the second alonso/perez were fasters and now he got a hell of race to do and rosberg i think was peerless.

I think he could get one third and two seconds with all perfect.


This is correct.

#2041 Dalin80

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:05

Purely for arbitrary numbers sake purely from my personal opinion-

Qual

Lewis 3:0 Jenson

Race

Lewis 1:1 jenson (1 draw)

#2042 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:06

Ive been thinking about this it could be the story of the season if Lewis gets front rows consistently with the Mercedes pair and Vettel possibly getting ahead of Button.

In addition I think when Hamilton starts racing at the front cleanly we may start seeing that Button looking after his tyres won't help because the undercut (i.e. pitting 1st) is always advantageous (as long as Hamilton's FINAL pitstop of the race is not to early for the tyres to hit that cliff).

I think in clean weekends racing at the front, the best chance of Button finishing ahead is by beating Hamilton in qualifying.

This is why I think Hamilton is favourite for the WDC as long as McLaren can still provide the car throughout the season.

#2043 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:06

It's a shame out about the gearbox penalty and schumacher retiring.

Hamilton could have put in a serious lead in the WDC.

With Mercedes looking quick in qualifying, I just wonder how much they will start affecting Button in getting between him and Hamilton who has those extra 2 tenths in his pocket in qualifying. I mean a P5 quali by Button is gonna hamper him.

Hamilton must be so annoyed that he's done 3 error free race weekends and in theory should now have 75 pts on the board but doesn't down to team strategy.

How do you work out 75 points. The safety car cost him second in Aus. The pitstops cost him a chance to fight for victory in Malaysia, whether he would have actually won??? China we really don't know what would have happened, but Rosberg looked untouchable.

#2044 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:07

I'm aware they use the same engine, but it's not that simple looking at top speed figures to determine who hitted the limiter first.
Fact is BUT on the DRS zone could come much closer to others while HAM could not.

They hit the limiter at the same speed. Perhaps Button had better acceleration out of the corners.

And how would you know by that at which part of the straight the top speed was achieved? JB did look to have faster acceleration right away in almost every corner for whatever reason,his style/ability I don't know,but those #s mean nothing.

If Jenson had faster acceleration out of corners he would also hit the limiter sooner.

#2045 velgajski1

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:09

How do you work out 75 points. The safety car cost him second in Aus. The pitstops cost him a chance to fight for victory in Malaysia, whether he would have actually won??? China we really don't know what would have happened, but Rosberg looked untouchable.


Exactly, he basically could have only had 6 points more had he drove 3 perfect races. Not many drivers can boast of being so close to maximising car potential this season, and it already shows in WDC table.

For example, better Q3 from Alonso + an error free race today, and he could have comfortably won 8 points instead of just 2.

#2046 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:10

How do you work out 75 points. The safety car cost him second in Aus. The pitstops cost him a chance to fight for victory in Malaysia, whether he would have actually won??? China we really don't know what would have happened, but Rosberg looked untouchable.

Race 1 - Hamilton said the team changed his start settings at the last minute, he then got poor launch.
Race 2 - safety car timing unluck, but stint 1 demonstrated how he was controlling the race
Race 3 - gearbox change 5 place penalty.

If Team McLaren was perfect all 3 races, he would have 3 wins.

#2047 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:10

Thing is your talking a tenth here or there.

I'm talking about Hamilton having the opportunity to control the race from the front, team errors have robbed him of that opportunity.

Race 1 - Hamilton said the team changed his start settings at the last minute, he then got poor launch.
Race 2 - safety car timing unluck, but stint 1 demonstrated how he was controlling the race
Race 3 - gearbox change 5 place penalty.

I forgot about that. We really don't know how the race would have panned out, but you raise a good point about leading from the front.

#2048 revlec

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:10

I don't know you guys, but i'm not that confident.
WEB is only 9 poinst off the WDC lead, and VET 17 points off.

Once RB will fix their qualifying issues, they will be serious contenders. They still have the downforce(massive amount i must say) but for some reason they are struggling to qualify well. the speed is there though.

I expected a +35 points lead on them by now.

Edited by revlec, 15 April 2012 - 11:11.


#2049 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:11

I don't know you guys, but i'm not that confident.
WEB is only 9 poinst off the WDC lead, and VET 17 points off.

Once RB will fix their qualifying issues, they will be serious contenders. They still have the downforce(massive amount i must say) but for some reason they are struggling to qualify well. the speed is there though.

I expected a +35 points lead on them by now.

Its definitely wide open right now.

#2050 hammibal

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:13

Perhaps McLaren did choice the wrong tyres, because on their wall they wrote something about the 'prime tyre working well for others' before the 2nd round of pitstops. Do not see the relevance however with Jenson vs Lewis.

The only relevance i guess would be that Lewis was disadvantaged more because of his inferior track position