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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#2151 Anomnader

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:54

Possibly.
He had marginally more pace in the race, as well as making his tyres last marginally better.
If they'd had Schumacher between them at turn 1 then it would depend to some degree on whether LH could drive away from him.

It would be silly to claim a yes or no as a certainty though.


Your favourite questions how do you get he had more pace in the race?

You pounce striaght away if someone says Lewis was faster and here you are doing the same thing :rolleyes:


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#2152 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:55

How many ontrack passes were there amongst the top drivers on the same strategy?

A people were saying DRS makes passes to easy. The easy passes only really come when the tyres of the car ahead begin to degrade before that of the chasing car.

#2153 jrg19

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:56

How many ontrack passes were there amongst the top drivers on the same strategy?

I'd imagine Lewis made the most out of the 3 stoppers, would just be a guess though.

#2154 Anomnader

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:56

I was shocked how hard passing was today, cars were 1 second slower the chasing car had drs enabled and still followed them for several laps.
Is it the tyres again?

#2155 WitnessX

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:56

Lol. I'm quite confident that I can see it when someone is being held up. This wasn't Jenson doing his 'tyre saving'-mode. This was Jenson not being able to close down Schumacher, while not being able to get rid of Raikkonen. He wasn't held up whatsoever. The team pushed him to get out of Raikkonens DRS range but he couldn't. Not that he was losing time 'defending'. I didn't see him make a single defensive move, so you're making this up. After a couple of laps he asked the team "How close was I to the DRS of Michael?". He was trying to close him down but he couldn't till, indeed like you say, lap 9. Dirty air is not such an issue if you're 1,5 seconds behind. If you're really quicker, you don't fall back that much. Don't tell me that I don't seem to grasp simple stuff like this. You claiming he lost 4 seconds in the first 5 laps because of Schumacher on the other hand is just grabbing numbers out of the air.


I find it easier in pretty pictures: http://en.mclarenf-1...amp;hid=3_4_7_8

However to say whether JB could have/have not beaten MS based on the first stint is highly speculative and moves into the world of "fan"tasy. All that can be said that in the first stint MS certainly did not have the same pace as NR. We also don't know the relative fuel loads. The subject is not terrifically relevant to this particular thread anyway.

...quick subject change (not from above)..
(with respect to JBs qualifying) I suspect that qualifying was a "strange" affair more to do with changing track conditions and being out at the right time (or has Kobayashi suddenly improved) so I would not read too much into it (strangely NR said after qualifying that as the track got colder the grip increased on his cars rear wheels).

#2156 robefc

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:58

Possibly.
He had marginally more pace in the race, as well as making his tyres last marginally better.
If they'd had Schumacher between them at turn 1 then it would depend to some degree on whether LH could drive away from him.

It would be silly to claim a yes or no as a certainty though.


Remember jenson would have started from 6th too, I find it probable there would have been at least a couple of cars between them and it would have been JB more likely t be stuck in traffic than lewis.

The start was awesome though with JB and Lewis going past people on opposite sides of the track!

#2157 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:58

Hamilton/penalty,Schum/tire both qualified ahead and could have easily finished ahead if not for circumstances. Even minus the 6extra seconds JB would still be some 20 seconds behind with 16 laps to go and with only 5-6 lap fresher tires.

What the hell are you on about? With a 10-second pitstop he came out 20 seconds behind NR stuck in traffic. With a normal pitstop he would have come out in front of traffic, with a 14-15 sec gap to Nico, free air to push and a competitor that was going to be very worried about his tyres lasting the distance. I don't say he would have won it but it would have been rather close. Fortunate my arse. Even looking at the world from a really narrow viewpoint of "all things only things Lewis Hamilton" their comparative luck was about equal this weekend.

#2158 bonjon1979a

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 13:59

Good to see this page is lively this morning...

A couple of points:

Jenson's poor qualifying was a result of colder than expected temperatures. Won't happen often.

If they wore the same helmet, would it even be possible to tell the to McLaren drivers apart in the race?


I agree that the temperatures played a part - I expect JB to pressurise Hamilton more but he does seem to need everything just so to deliver the lap time.

I also agree with you on the helmets, they both looked good today.

#2159 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:08

Possibly.
He had marginally more pace in the race, as well as making his tyres last marginally better.
If they'd had Schumacher between them at turn 1 then it would depend to some degree on whether LH could drive away from him.

It would be silly to claim a yes or no as a certainty though.

thing is your talking 1 or 2 tenths, here or there, that isn't enough to overtake a sister car.

I haven't seen Button ever make a genuine overtake on Hamilton stick. If anything its Hamilton who has clean overtakes on Button.

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#2160 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:10

thing is your talking 1 or 2 tenths, here or there, that isn't enough to overtake a sister car.

I haven't seen Button ever make a genuine overtake on Hamilton stick. If anything its Hamilton who has clean overtakes on Button.


Australia doesn't count?

#2161 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:12

Your favourite questions how do you get he had more pace in the race?

You pounce striaght away if someone says Lewis was faster and here you are doing the same thing :rolleyes:

Rather than write the same thing...

The second stint was absolutely crucial. Both could drive the pace they wanted, and Hamilton initially appeared a little quicker, but then his tyres wore off too soon, he started losing 0.35-0.4 per lap at least 3 laps in a row on Jenson until he pitted, resulting in a very short 2nd stint of 12 laps. Button's times remained more consistent, but he had to pit 2 laps after Lewis as well to cover Lewis/Webber etc. But after that pitstop, Jenson basically decided their fight already, with newer tyres and a gap between them that resulted in Jenson being in clean air and Lewis not being in clean air. Blame McLaren as much you want, the fact is that if Lewis was supposedly equal in performance to Jenson, he would have done that 2nd stint better. Instead he lost time and remained in traffic.

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#2162 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:12

Australia doesn't count?

Well whenever number of overtakes in a race is counted I don't think they include the start?

Edited by Obi Offiah, 15 April 2012 - 14:12.


#2163 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:13

Well if by lunge ya'll mean crashing/losing wings,tires then OK,a ''sniff'' it is and LH is a p**** :rolleyes:

He was bashed for inconsistency and now for consistency and not lunging and being timid :drunk:


It must have hit hard he's leading WDC and hasn't even shown his best or won a race and had bad fortune all3 races :clap:



Pretty good race by Hamilton . He has perfected the cruise and collect method so far this year and now leads the wdc.

Excellent job by Button, aggressive and smart drive. If only that pitstop hadn't undone all his hard work, he might have had a shot at Rosberg at the end.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 15 April 2012 - 14:48.


#2164 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:14

Remember jenson would have started from 6th too, I find it probable there would have been at least a couple of cars between them and it would have been JB more likely t be stuck in traffic than lewis.

The start was awesome though with JB and Lewis going past people on opposite sides of the track!

I'm assuming JB made the same start he made today - passing the same cars but ending up 1 place back.
Anything else doesn't seem reasonable.

#2165 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:14

I'm not grabbing any numbers out of the air - all of it is taken from the live timing app that I've just rewatched. You're clearly clueless about how turbulent air can effect these cars if you think that Jenson's aero wouldn't be effected when he spent most of his time around 1 second behind Msc. We've heard teams talk about dirty air effecting cars that are up to 2 seconds behind.

So you honestly think that Jenson was free to just think about putting in the lap times and wasn't concerned about what was going on behind? We didn't get to see a lot of what was going on in the first few laps because of FOM's crazy habit of showing dozens of repeats of the start when the first couple of laps are running. I'm not going to carry on discussing this with you because you've decided what you think. Personally, I remain convinced that had button been 2nd on the grid he wouldn't've lost so much time and would've been closer to nico at the first round of pitstops.

It also appears that you have decided what you think, but if you really think Button was faster yet could not drive within 1 second of Schumacher because of dirty air, then how could Raikkonen stay within 6 tenths of Button for basically the whole first stint? This alone doesn't add up. So obviously I'm still of the opinion that Button was not faster than Schumacher thus did not lose any time driving behind him until his pit stop. And you saying I'm clueless about this doesn't really help your argument either.

And on the second point, of course Button looked in his mirrors, but just like us as viewers, he noticed Raikkonen was never in any position to actually attack him. In that case you just keep driving normal lines so your pace isn't affected. Seems pretty clear to me. Either way, I don't mind if I don't convince you.

#2166 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:15

Australia doesn't count?

Team changed Hamiltons launch settings at the last minute. That cost him a poor launch. I don't count that as a genuine overtake no, simply Button had the better settings.

#2167 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:15

Well whenever number of overtakes in a race is counted I don't think they include the start?


The guy said he'd never seen Button make an overtake stick on Hamilton, for me, there's absolutely nothing that stops his overtake in Australia count.

#2168 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:15

Team changed Hamiltons launch settings at the last minute. That cost him a poor launch. I don't count that as a genuine overtake no, simply Button had the better settings.


Turkey?

#2169 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:17

I'd imagine Lewis made the most out of the 3 stoppers, would just be a guess though.

No,I mean from the top guys on the same strategy vs each/other.

So then the question would be how would JB pass LH on track? So trogggy's 'possibly' becomes 'impossibly' using what actually happened on track as relevance.

But I already see: You can't prove blah blah...coz in a relative universe yada yada.

#2170 bonjon1979a

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:18

It also appears that you have decided what you think, but if you really think Button was faster yet could not drive within 1 second of Schumacher because of dirty air, then how could Raikkonen stay within 6 tenths of Button for basically the whole first stint? This alone doesn't add up. So obviously I'm still of the opinion that Button was not faster than Schumacher thus did not lose any time driving behind him until his pit stop. And you saying I'm clueless about this doesn't really help your argument either.

And on the second point, of course Button looked in his mirrors, but just like us as viewers, he noticed Raikkonen was never in any position to actually attack him. In that case you just keep driving normal lines so your pace isn't affected. Seems pretty clear to me. Either way, I don't mind if I don't convince you.


Fair enough and you're obviously not clueless. Just we're in disagreement. Paul Hembry thinks Button suffered from being in dirty air but that's by the by.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98884


#2171 BuzzingHornet

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:18

So... much... rage... :lol:

#2172 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:20

The guy said he'd never seen Button make an overtake stick on Hamilton, for me, there's absolutely nothing that stops his overtake in Australia count.

For the record I don't agree with the statement that Button hasn't made a move on Lewis stick.

#2173 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:20

The guy said he'd never seen Button make an overtake stick on Hamilton, for me, there's absolutely nothing that stops his overtake in Australia count.

I said 'genuine' overtake...

#2174 Lights

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:21

I was shocked how hard passing was today, cars were 1 second slower the chasing car had drs enabled and still followed them for several laps.
Is it the tyres again?

I didn't really notice this with Button to be honest. The only driver he had difficulties overtaking with was Vettel, and that was purely because Vettel had DRS too because of Raikkonen.

Overall though, the field is just incredibly close, the differences between the cars are so little. Seems a bit like mid-2009 again.

#2175 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:21

I said 'genuine' overtake...


Turkey?

#2176 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:22

Turkey?

wasn't that when Hamilton was told to turn down the wick and Button had been told to do the same and assurance that he would not overtake? anyhow didn't hamilton soon correct that little stunt button pulled the following corner?

Edited by ZooL, 15 April 2012 - 14:23.


#2177 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:23

wasn't that when Hamilton was told to turn down the wick and Button had been told to do the same and assurance that he would not overtake? anyhow didn't hamilton soon correct that little stunt button pulled?

I think ImDDAA meant Turkey 2011?

#2178 Watkins74

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:26

So... much... rage... :lol:

:up:

A 2nd and a 3rd, No reason for everyone to be so bent out of shape.

#2179 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:29

wasn't that when Hamilton was told to turn down the wick and Button had been told to do the same and assurance that he would not overtake? anyhow didn't hamilton soon correct that little stunt button pulled the following corner?


2011.

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#2180 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:30

No,I mean from the top guys on the same strategy vs each/other.

So then the question would be how would JB pass LH on track? So trogggy's 'possibly' becomes 'impossibly' using what actually happened on track as relevance.

But I already see: You can't prove blah blah...coz in a relative universe yada yada.

I refer you to my previous post...

It would be silly to claim a yes or no as a certainty though.

I'm not making a claim that he would have finished ahead - just that it's a possibility. If you don't accept that then fine.


#2181 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:31

I think ImDDAA meant Turkey 2011?

:up: Yup.

#2182 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:32

thing is your talking 1 or 2 tenths, here or there, that isn't enough to overtake a sister car.

I haven't seen Button ever make a genuine overtake on Hamilton stick. If anything its Hamilton who has clean overtakes on Button.

Turkey 2011 was the last time Button passed Hamilton. When exactly was the last time Hamilton made a move stick on Button?

I've got a really good feeling that Button could well take his 2nd WDC this year. Button has finished infront of Hamilton twice now, and would have most probably finished infront in Malaysia aswell if not for his stupid mistake, making him the championship leader by a good amount of points. Hamilton can't always rely on Button making little mistakes to finish ahead of him  ;)

#2183 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:34

Turkey 2011 was the last time Button passed Hamilton. When exactly was the last time Hamilton made a move stick on Button?

I've got a really good feeling that Button could well take his 2nd WDC this year. Button has finished infront of Hamilton twice now, and would have most probably finished infront in Malaysia aswell if not for his stupid mistake, making him the championship leader by a good amount of points. Hamilton can't always rely on Button making little mistakes to finish ahead of him ;)

I don't see that. As soon as they put inters on I expect Hamilton to disappear into the distance tbh.

#2184 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:34

2011.

Hmm can't say I remember the move.

Went to look on wikipaedia and found only this:

Behind him (Vettel) there were battles, with Fernando Alonso and Mark Webber fighting for second place in the closing laps, the victory falling to Webber giving Red Bull a one-two result.[3] Behind Webber and Alonso, Hamilton and Button fought for fourth place, with Hamilton getting the upper hand, and Nico Rosberg later slipping in between the pair, taking fifth from Button when Button's tyres were degrading massively on the last stint.


I'll take your word for it though, even though Hamilton finished P4 and Button P6.

Edited by ZooL, 15 April 2012 - 14:35.


#2185 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:38

Hmm can't say I remember the move.

Went to look on wikipaedia and found only this:



I'll take your word for it though, even though Hamilton finished P4 and Button P6.

Button passed hamilton earlier in the race and opened up a gap, but was put on a terrible 2 stop strategy while hamilton got with hindsight the better 3 stop and blitzed passed Button later on in the DRS zone.

#2186 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:39

Fair enough and you're obviously not clueless. Just we're in disagreement. Paul Hembry thinks Button suffered from being in dirty air but that's by the by.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98884

He thinks "Button" suffered or.....

"Hembery also suggested that Rosberg's ability to make the most of his start and run up at the front in clear air had helped him conserve his tyres."

....which means everyone since they were all in dirty air. So you still can't gauge their(LH/JB)'s relative pace.

#2187 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:40

I don't see that. As soon as they put inters on I expect Hamilton to disappear into the distance tbh.

Button came out infront of Hamilton in Malaysia.

#2188 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:43

He thinks "Button" suffered or.....

"Hembery also suggested that Rosberg's ability to make the most of his start and run up at the front in clear air had helped him conserve his tyres."

....which means everyone since they were all in dirty air. So you still can't gauge their(LH/JB)'s relative pace.

If Hembrey is right, and he probably is, this little factlet isn't gonna help Button vs Hamilton if he doesn't always get to T1 first on Lap 1 like in Aussie.

Edited by ZooL, 15 April 2012 - 14:44.


#2189 Lazy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:45

You think that if Lewis had not had his grid penalty then Jenson would still have beat him?


Quite possibly, but I didn't say that, I just said he was better in the race.

#2190 stevesingo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:47

Looking at this,

http://en.mclarenf-1...amp;hid=3_4_7_8

From Lap 25-34 JB took 17secs out of NR (9laps) to end up 6.1secs behind when NR pitted. After the stop NR managed to gain back 7secs, leaving him just over 2 secs behind JB when JB pitted.

Without the pit cock up, losing 6secs, which sebsequently put JB in traffic, JB would have come out of the pits about 16secs behind NR on 5lap newer tyres and 17laps to go. If JB could have performed in the last stint as in the 2nd, (17secs in 9laps) NR would have had to get a move on, which in turn takes it's toll on the tyres. It could have been on for JB, if not, an exiting finish.

Just a thought...

Edited by stevesingo, 15 April 2012 - 14:49.


#2191 Lazy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:49

I find it easier in pretty pictures: http://en.mclarenf-1...amp;hid=3_4_7_8

However to say whether JB could have/have not beaten MS based on the first stint is highly speculative and moves into the world of "fan"tasy. All that can be said that in the first stint MS certainly did not have the same pace as NR. We also don't know the relative fuel loads. The subject is not terrifically relevant to this particular thread anyway.

...quick subject change (not from above)..
(with respect to JBs qualifying) I suspect that qualifying was a "strange" affair more to do with changing track conditions and being out at the right time (or has Kobayashi suddenly improved) so I would not read too much into it (strangely NR said after qualifying that as the track got colder the grip increased on his cars rear wheels).


Leave them some hope :)


#2192 ZooL

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:49

Looking at this,

http://en.mclarenf-1...amp;hid=3_4_7_8

From Lap 25-34 JB took 17secs out of NR (9laps) to end up 6.1secs behind when NR pitted. After the stop NR managed to gain back 7secs, leaving him just over 2 secs behind JB when JB pitted.

Without the pit cock up, losing 6secs, which sebsequently put JB in traffic, JB would have come out of the pits aboy 16secs behind NR on 5lap newer tyres and 17laps to go. If JB could have performed in the last stint as in the 2nd, (17secs in 9laps) NR would have had to get a move on, which in turn takes it's toll on the tyres. It could have been on for JB, if not, an exiting finish.

Just a thought...

Whitmarsh on SSF1 said Button would not have made it.

Edited by ZooL, 15 April 2012 - 14:50.


#2193 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:51

Button came out infront of Hamilton in Malaysia.


Sorry, Button had no chance in Malaysia - he had terrible trouble on the inters and had to change a pair very quickly.

#2194 stevesingo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:52

He's hardly going to say, the team screwed JBs chances is he. MW has never admitted that the pit crews need to be better, even inlight of all the LH cock ups that are pointed out.




#2195 velgajski1

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:53

My god, this really is a comedy thread. On a day that both drivers did absolutely fantastic job you guys argue about nonsense :)

#2196 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:57

Sorry, Button had no chance in Malaysia - he had terrible trouble on the inters and had to change a pair very quickly.

It's very unlikely that Button would of had NO chance. The reason he had trouble on inters was because after his accident he was stuck behind a slower Maldanado and couldn't get heat into his tyres.

#2197 P123

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:57

Turkey 2011 was the last time Button passed Hamilton. When exactly was the last time Hamilton made a move stick on Button?


Hungary 2011.

#2198 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:59

I refer you to my previous post...

I'm not making a claim that he would have finished ahead - just that it's a possibility. If you don't accept that then fine.

I accept it,even as unlikely as it may be given the race we saw.

#2199 robefc

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 14:59

Turkey 2011 was the last time Button passed Hamilton. When exactly was the last time Hamilton made a move stick on Button?

I've got a really good feeling that Button could well take his 2nd WDC this year. Button has finished infront of Hamilton twice now, and would have most probably finished infront in Malaysia aswell if not for his stupid mistake, making him the championship leader by a good amount of points. Hamilton can't always rely on Button making little mistakes to finish ahead of him ;)


I'm not sure button can rely on engineering cock ups, slow pit stops or faulty gearboxes to get him in front of Lewis either ;)

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#2200 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:00

Hungary 2011.

Oh yes Button passed Hamilton in hungary aswell thanks for pointing that out ;)