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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#2201 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:01

It's very unlikely that Button would of had NO chance. The reason he had trouble on inters was because after his accident he was stuck behind a slower Maldanado and couldn't get heat into his tyres.


I'm replying to your original comment that said Button would have finished infront of Hamilton - I don't think he had a chance.

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#2202 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:06

I'm replying to your original comment that said Button would have finished infront of Hamilton - I don't think he had a chance.

I didn't say "would have" though did i? I said most probably given that he came out of the pits infront of him and had good pace up until he took his own front wing off.


#2203 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:09

I didn't say "would have" though did i? I said most probably given that he came out of the pits infront of him and had good pace up until he took his own front wing off.

Semantics, he had no chance.

#2204 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:17

I'm not sure button can rely on engineering cock ups, slow pit stops or faulty gearboxes to get him in front of Lewis either ;)


Yet he's leading.Funny innit? If he had this 'Prost' mindset he'd have 3 titles by now,even his dad was surprised to hear Ham was leading WDC and at the patience he's showing.

#2205 Markn93

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:19

Yet he's leading.Funny innit? If he had this 'Prost' mindset he'd have 3 titles by now,even his dad was surprised to hear Ham was leading WDC and at the patience he's showing.


I thought that was hilarious/a bit strange. I mean, he's your son for heavens sake! Leading the World Championship! Nonetheless it was a great interview and I am a great fan of Antony's.

#2206 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:30

Semantics, he had no chance.

Of course not  ;)

#2207 hammibal

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:31

I was shocked how hard passing was today, cars were 1 second slower the chasing car had drs enabled and still followed them for several laps.
Is it the tyres again?

The DRS zone seemed a bit ineffective today

What the hell are you on about? With a 10-second pitstop he came out 20 seconds behind NR stuck in traffic. With a normal pitstop he would have come out in front of traffic, with a 14-15 sec gap to Nico, free air to push and a competitor that was going to be very worried about his tyres lasting the distance. I don't say he would have won it but it would have been rather close. Fortunate my arse. Even looking at the world from a really narrow viewpoint of "all things only things Lewis Hamilton" their comparative luck was about equal this weekend.

Not really Lewis's bad luck put him behind Jenson and thats where he stayed

#2208 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:35

Yet he's leading.Funny innit? If he had this 'Prost' mindset he'd have 3 titles by now,even his dad was surprised to hear Ham was leading WDC and at the patience he's showing.

It's not that funny, considering he's had two poles and the highest he's finished is 3rd. His team mate on the other hand scored zero points in Malaysia and is only 2 points behind.

#2209 ForzaGTR

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:38

Hamilton appears to have learned his lesson. Considering all the bad luck he has had this year it is amazing he is leading the WDC. He seems so focused. I think this could be his year.

#2210 jrg19

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:39

It's not that funny, considering he's had two poles and the highest he's finished is 3rd. His team mate on the other hand scored zero points in Malaysia and is only 2 points behind.


But in all 3 races Lewis has had unfortunate bad things happen and with that he still leads the championship.


#2211 as65p

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:44

But in all 3 races Lewis has had unfortunate bad things happen and with that he still leads the championship.


Yeah, unfortunate bad things like other drivers finishing in front of him. Terrible luck, that.

#2212 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:46

Hamilton appears to have learned his lesson. Considering all the bad luck he has had this year it is amazing he is leading the WDC. He seems so focused. I think this could be his year.



Cruise and collect may be the best strategy this year which is seeing a different winner each race. If Hamilton can use this method to finish races and collect third places, and maybe get lucky and win a race, he might have a shot at the championship.

Although he will have to beat his more aggressive teammate which might prove to be a bit too much to ask.

#2213 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:47

Yeah, unfortunate bad things like other drivers finishing in front of him. Terrible luck, that.

Er no. Its obvious he has had bad luck in all three races. I understand you don't like Lewis, that's fine, but lets be reasonable here.

#2214 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:48

Cruise and collect may be the best strategy this year which is seeing a different winner each race. If Hamilton can use this method to finish races and collect third places, and maybe get lucky and win a race, he might have a shot at the championship.

Although he will have to beat his more aggressive teammate which might prove to be a bit too much to ask.

:rotfl:

#2215 TallyHo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:53

Cruise and collect may be the best strategy this year which is seeing a different winner each race. If Hamilton can use this method to finish races and collect third places, and maybe get lucky and win a race, he might have a shot at the championship.

Although he will have to beat his more aggressive teammate which might prove to be a bit too much to ask.

:lol: Us Button fans hate cruise a collect racers, they're not REAL racers. I much prefer Buttons balls out style. Button is da best.

#2216 Seanspeed

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:54

Er no. Its obvious he has had bad luck in all three races. I understand you don't like Lewis, that's fine, but lets be reasonable here.

If he had a better start and was faster in Australia, he could have won. He was not as quick as Alonso or Perez for most of the race in Malaysia, so thats why he lost there.

Today, he dealt with traffic just like everybody on the grid had to except maybe Rosberg. He wasn't alone in having to fight for it and he should thank his stars he had the car to do it. Alonso pretty much mirrored Lewis' strategy and couldn't pull off a similar result because the car wasn't good enough.

Either way, none of the luck he has had has been anywhere near disasterous. Just some little things here and there, he's still doing very well in the WDC and he's still got a fantastic car that will likely go on to win plenty of races this year. His luck isn't that bad guys.

#2217 jrg19

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:55

Yeah, unfortunate bad things like other drivers finishing in front of him. Terrible luck, that.


Yeah like every driver on the grid has experienced, its just Lewis is doing the best job of it atm.


#2218 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 15:58

It's not that funny, considering he's had two poles and the highest he's finished is 3rd. His team mate on the other hand scored zero points in Malaysia and is only 2 points behind.


Schumi has qualified 4th,3rd and 3rd.Do you know how many points he has? :wave: Poles have 0 points even though they're important.Hamilton's sudden patience and long game thinking is admirable and what he was missing.

20 3rd places=300 points which equals to 120 in 2008 money which in a close grid he only needed 98 for WDC ;) He's well on schedule.


"It's definitely a positive to add the consistency which I want and I think if we keep on working like we have then the wins will come," said Hamilton.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98881




#2219 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:00

I thought that was hilarious/a bit strange. I mean, he's your son for heavens sake! Leading the World Championship! Nonetheless it was a great interview and I am a great fan of Antony's.

Strange indeed,at least he's supporting him as a father.

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#2220 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:01

If he had a better start and was faster in Australia, he could have won. He was not as quick as Alonso or Perez for most of the race in Malaysia, so thats why he lost there.

Today, he dealt with traffic just like everybody on the grid had to except maybe Rosberg. He wasn't alone in having to fight for it and he should thank his stars he had the car to do it. Alonso pretty much mirrored Lewis' strategy and couldn't pull off a similar result because the car wasn't good enough.

Either way, none of the luck he has had has been anywhere near disasterous. Just some little things here and there, he's still doing very well in the WDC and he's still got a fantastic car that will likely go on to win plenty of races this year. His luck isn't that bad guys.

Earlier in this thread or another I mentioned the same thing regarding Aus, that Jenson was faster but Lewis was unlucky to not finish second due to the safety car. It was then pointed out to me that the late change to Lewis' start strategy cost him a position off the line (a fact I had forgotten). If Lewis had lead off the line he would have had first dibs on when to stop and would have been in a better position to control the race even if Jenson was faster. In any event he was unlucky not to finish second. In Malaysia he lost a great deal of time and the lead of the race due to poor pit stops, without which Alonso and Perez would have had to pass him on track I believe?. I wouldn't exactly call his five place grid penalty in China this weekend winning the national lottery.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 15 April 2012 - 16:07.


#2221 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:04

Schumi has qualified 4th,3rd and 3rd.Do you know how many points he has? :wave: Poles have 0 points even though they're important.Hamilton's sudden patience and long game thinking is admirable and what he was missing.

20 3rd places=300 points which equals to 120 in 2008 money which in a close grid he only needed 98 for WDC ;) He's well on schedule.



http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98881

Schumacher has been extremely unlucky so far this year. Maybe I should pop into the Mercedes/Schumacher thread to see if his bad luck is also being played down.

#2222 fieraku

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:16

Pretty good race by Hamilton . He has perfected the cruise and collect method so far this year and now leads the wdc.

Excellent job by Button, aggressive and smart drive. If only that pitstop hadn't undone all his hard work, he might have had a shot at Rosberg at the end.


Cruise and collect may be the best strategy this year which is seeing a different winner each race. If Hamilton can use this method to finish races and collect third places, and maybe get lucky and win a race, he might have a shot at the championship.

Although he will have to beat his more aggressive teammate which might prove to be a bit too much to ask.


Like clockwork :up: Agree on all counts.

#2223 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:22

Either way, none of the luck he has had has been anywhere near disasterous. Just some little things here and there, he's still doing very well in the WDC and he's still got a fantastic car that will likely go on to win plenty of races this year. His luck isn't that bad guys.

I just reread you post again and no-one, well not me at least is saying his luck has been disastrous, if it was he wouldn't be leading the WDC right now. Last year Vettel was very successful because he had a dominant car, he drove very well, his team-mate was struggling by comparison and his team did a great job regarding pit-stops and strategy, it was a symphony in harmony, everything worked well together (for him). Lewis and Jenson for that matter don't have the car advantage of the RB7, but they are losing points due to poor pit-stops, reliability issues and other factors beyond their control. Alonso has been unlucky because Ferrari haven't produced a car that is fast enough, however I don't think we can use this to mitigate the issues at McLaren thus far and I'm sure McLaren aren't thinking "oh well, these things happen. We'll just ignore them and hope for better".

#2224 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:31

I just reread you post again and no-one, well not me at least is saying his luck has been disastrous, if it was he wouldn't be leading the WDC right now. Last year Vettel was very successful because he had a dominant car, he drove very well, his team-mate was struggling by comparison and his team did a great job regarding pit-stops and strategy, it was a symphony in harmony, everything worked well together (for him). Lewis and Jenson for that matter don't have the car advantage of the RB7, but they are losing points due to poor pit-stops, reliability issues and other factors beyond their control. Alonso has been unlucky because Ferrari haven't produced a car that is fast enough, however I don't think we can use this to mitigate the issues at McLaren thus far and I'm sure McLaren aren't thinking "oh well, these things happen. We'll just ignore them and hope for better".

To be fair I think Button's only lost points due to his mistake in Malaysia.
Hamilton lost 3 points due to a very badly timed (for him) safety car in Australia, and possibly another 3 because of his gearbox change this weekend.

I don't expect Hamilton to be as unlucky with safety cars and gearboxes - but then again I doubt Button is going to be hitting HRTs 1 race in 3. Hope not anyway.

#2225 tkulla

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:37

Oh, and I think the great pitstop favoritism debate is over now since Lewis was allowed to pit before Jenson even though Button was ahead on track.



#2226 AMG FAN

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:51

Yeah, unfortunate bad things like other drivers finishing in front of him. Terrible luck, that.

why do people like making stupid statements...you don't think that Lewis gearbox change was bad luck for him? if it's not bad luck then what is it? good luck?

#2227 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 16:51

To be fair I think Button's only lost points due to his mistake in Malaysia.
Hamilton lost 3 points due to a very badly timed (for him) safety car in Australia, and possibly another 3 because of his gearbox change this weekend.

I don't expect Hamilton to be as unlucky with safety cars and gearboxes - but then again I doubt Button is going to be hitting HRTs 1 race in 3. Hope not anyway.

I can't really say how many points Lewis has lost, maybe he has gained, as in if he didn't have the gearbox issue and had started from second today, perhaps he would have collided with Nico at the first corner, who knows? May be if he hadn't been told to alter his start strategy in Aus, he would have lead into the first corner, controlled the race and won despite Jenson being quicker (It won't be the first time in F1, that a slower/potentially slower driver ahead, has held off a fast/potentially faster driver behind. The issue for Lewis thus far, is that while he has been very consistent in his podium finishes, he has been more-so consistent in receiving problems beyond his control at all three races this season so far. If he'd had problems just once most would have brushed it off, twice, that's not good "lets look to the third race for a clean weekend", now its three times in a row.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 15 April 2012 - 16:59.


#2228 BillBald

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:01

:lol: Us Button fans hate cruise a collect racers, they're not REAL racers. I much prefer Buttons balls out style. Button is da best.


:up:

I'm just worried that Jenson, being behind Lewis in the WDC, might start to think that Lewis' cautious approach is best!



#2229 GlenP

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:04

If only because his was the only significant mistake of the season so far, I have to say that Button is fractionally behind so far. JB's error in Sepang I mean. Otherwise they've both been totally solid and professional. I reckon the points table is not a bad reflection really - I guess the idea of this thread is to identify how the actual points table and the "moral" table differ, and the answer is not much.

(I'm almost glad the bad luck pitstop went to Jenson today - I don't think it would be worth posting on here otherwise!)

#2230 OO7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:09

If only because his was the only significant mistake of the season so far, I have to say that Button is fractionally behind so far. JB's error in Sepang I mean. Otherwise they've both been totally solid and professional. I reckon the points table is not a bad reflection really - I guess the idea of this thread is to identify how the actual points table and the "moral" table differ, and the answer is not much.

(I'm almost glad the bad luck pitstop went to Jenson today - I don't think it would be worth posting on here otherwise!)

:lol: I agree with you, not just the emboldened quote which was funny, but that they have been very close so far. :up:

#2231 BillBald

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:09

If only because his was the only significant mistake of the season so far, I have to say that Button is fractionally behind so far. JB's error in Sepang I mean. Otherwise they've both been totally solid and professional. I reckon the points table is not a bad reflection really - I guess the idea of this thread is to identify how the actual points table and the "moral" table differ, and the answer is not much.

(I'm almost glad the bad luck pitstop went to Jenson today - I don't think it would be worth posting on here otherwise!)


Clearly McLaren are carefully studying this forum, and realised that they had to give the bad pitstop to Jenson this time.



#2232 hammibal

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:10

Pretty good race by Hamilton . He has perfected the cruise and collect method so far this year and now leads the wdc.

Excellent job by Button, aggressive and smart drive. If only that pitstop hadn't undone all his hard work, he might have had a shot at Rosberg at the end.

Cruise and collect? :lol:

Turkey 2011 was the last time Button passed Hamilton. When exactly was the last time Hamilton made a move stick on Button?

I've got a really good feeling that Button could well take his 2nd WDC this year. Button has finished infront of Hamilton twice now, and would have most probably finished infront in Malaysia aswell if not for his stupid mistake, making him the championship leader by a good amount of points. Hamilton can't always rely on Button making little mistakes to finish ahead of him ;)

Jenson was slower than Lewis throughout the race in Malaysia

Button came out infront of Hamilton in Malaysia.

Lewis was leading the race, a lot of drivers passed him when they pitted after the SC restart, not many stayed in front though

It's very unlikely that Button would of had NO chance. The reason he had trouble on inters was because after his accident he was stuck behind a slower Maldanado and couldn't get heat into his tyres.

He wasnt quick on the slicks at the end either being slower than Lewis

#2233 engel

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:12

(I'm almost glad the bad luck pitstop went to Jenson today - I don't think it would be worth posting on here otherwise!)


yeah somebody needs to start a new fad, McLaren are sabotaging Jenson, bad pitstop in China probably cost him the win,bad set of inters that wouldn't heat up (as is customary in this thread I pulled that last bit straight out of my stomach) in Malaysia. It's shocking. Fire Whitmarsh. And Bob the rear right gunman.

#2234 BillBald

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:21

Cruise and collect? :lol:


Jenson was slower than Lewis throughout the race in Malaysia


Lewis was leading the race, a lot of drivers passed him when they pitted after the SC restart, not many stayed in front though


He wasnt quick on the slicks at the end either being slower than Lewis


For the entire last stint in Malaysia, Jenson was stuck behind first Rosberg, then Ricciardo. He had about 1 lap after overtaking Rosberg, when he could drive at his own pace, before he caught up to Ricciardo.





#2235 jjcale

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:21

Oh, and I think the great pitstop favoritism debate is over now since Lewis was allowed to pit before Jenson even though Button was ahead on track.


Yes.

Did you see JB's reaction to this on BBC ... :lol:

#2236 ForzaGTR

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:34

Cruise and collect may be the best strategy this year which is seeing a different winner each race. If Hamilton can use this method to finish races and collect third places, and maybe get lucky and win a race, he might have a shot at the championship.

Although he will have to beat his more aggressive teammate which might prove to be a bit too much to ask.


You had to end your posit like that didn't you.

#2237 BillBald

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:35

Oh, and I think the great pitstop favoritism debate is over now since Lewis was allowed to pit before Jenson even though Button was ahead on track.


Obviously an incurable optimist.

I think the argument will be that Lewis was forced to pit first, even though it put him in traffic.




#2238 tkulla

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:45

Yes.

Did you see JB's reaction to this on BBC ... :lol:


I didn't see (I'm in the US)... what did he say?

#2239 BillBald

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:48

I didn't see (I'm in the US)... what did he say?


He said he was surprised when Lewis pitted, but OK with it.

He thought that Lewis made the call very late, when Jenson was already past the pit entrance.




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#2240 MP422

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 17:55

I disagree. Had he been on the front row he wouldn't've lost time skirmishing and maintaining that 3rd place. He would've been on Nico's gearbox which would've put him in a better position throughout the race. In this instance the bad pitstop makes that a moot point but if Button continues to qualify further back than hamilton it will start to have an impact on his race results which is kind of an obvious statement to make but there you have it.


I'm appalled at the argument in this thread.... it was just buried for 3 weeks when button blew his front wing off and struggled on inters and didn't score any points and then all the JB fans come out yip yapping when he barely beats lewis who had a 5 spot penalty and a less desirable strategy.


But yea lewis did lose a lot of time not having pitstop preference and a GEARBOX PENALTY !!! Overall solid result and great run for both Mclaren drivers.


LH 3-0 1-2
JB 0-3 2-1

WDC LH #1 JB #2 whats to argue its along season.


My question is how come buttons car had what appeared to be more effective DRS speed. He was just cruising by people in the DRS. Whereas hamilton was very slow with DRS. He mentioned it in the press conference. Thats something for him to get on top of.

#2241 ayanate

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:00

That was quite a race for everyone on the track apart from P1. My observation, LH should have made JB's misfortune with the pitstop count by stealing second. He took forever trying to get past Perez who was on old tyres, JB on the other hand swept past Perez down the back straight with ease. What really is going on with Lewis and the sluggish overtakes? It is almost like him and JB have swapped race personas. The way JB outbraked Vettel at the end there was quite awesome to watch, he couldn't have done that 18 months ago.

Lewis has the biggest fight on his hand to wrestle race day superiority from Jenson, this is going to be one of the most spectacular intra-team battles since Senna-Prost. The good news is that these guys are gentlemen and would want to win fair and square. :D

#2242 engel

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:00

he barely beats lewis who had a 5 spot penalty and a less desirable strategy.


Lewis had a less desirable strategy in China?

#2243 BillBald

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:06

Lewis had a less desirable strategy in China?


Yes, he was made to pit earlier! :lol:

#2244 ForzaGTR

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:06

That was quite a race for everyone on the track apart from P1. My observation, LH should have made JB's misfortune with the pitstop count by stealing second. He took forever trying to get past Perez who was on old tyres, JB on the other hand swept past Perez down the back straight with ease. What really is going on with Lewis and the sluggish overtakes? It is almost like him and JB have swapped race personas. The way JB outbraked Vettel at the end there was quite awesome to watch, he couldn't have done that 18 months ago.

Lewis has the biggest fight on his hand to wrestle race day superiority from Jenson, this is going to be one of the most spectacular intra-team battles since Senna-Prost. The good news is that these guys are gentlemen and would want to win fair and square. :D


Lewis' tyres had already taken a bit of pounding earlier. And overtaking is not an exact science.

Lewis made plenty of decent overtakes today.

#2245 hammibal

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:11

I didn't say "would have" though did i? I said most probably given that he came out of the pits infront of him and had good pace up until he took his own front wing off.

Did you watch the race?

Yeah, unfortunate bad things like other drivers finishing in front of him. Terrible luck, that.

Yep but he leads the WDC :)

Cruise and collect may be the best strategy this year which is seeing a different winner each race. If Hamilton can use this method to finish races and collect third places, and maybe get lucky and win a race, he might have a shot at the championship.

Although he will have to beat his more aggressive teammate which might prove to be a bit too much to ask.

Pure gold, if he gets lucky and wins a race :rotfl:

#2246 trogggy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:13

Lewis had a less desirable strategy in China?

It seems to be a given.
Pit before button = bad strategy.
Pit after = same.
I think even pitting on the same lap was piss-poor in Australia according to some.

#2247 sofarapartguy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:15

It seems to be a given.
Pit before button = bad strategy.
Pit after = same.
I think even pitting on the same lap was piss-poor in Australia according to some.


Maybe he should not pit at all?

#2248 ayanate

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:17

Lewis' tyres had already taken a bit of pounding earlier. And overtaking is not an exact science.

Lewis made plenty of decent overtakes today.


He did indeed, but you have to admit he was less aggressive than JB and that's something that has changed since 2010. In the past, Lewis starting behind Jenson was not a problem for Lewis because you kinda felt he would outhustle Jenson, all other things being equal. It now seems Lewis is playing catch-up; trying to stay with Jenson instead of looking to pass and pull away.

#2249 ayanate

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:22

Maybe he should not pit at all?


You have to understand that some of us LH fans are going to find it hard to come to terms with JB's exceptional driving, there really is nothing between those guys. Lewis now needs every single advantage that he can get just to be in front of JB and really, all that is left is two tenths in qualy.

#2250 hammibal

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 18:29

For the entire last stint in Malaysia, Jenson was stuck behind first Rosberg, then Ricciardo. He had about 1 lap after overtaking Rosberg, when he could drive at his own pace, before he caught up to Ricciardo.

I guess running 2 seconds behind Ricciardo is being held up by him and i dont see 1 clear lap where Jenson wa quicker

He said he was surprised when Lewis pitted, but OK with it.

He thought that Lewis made the call very late, when Jenson was already past the pit entrance.

Was that because he knew that Lewis would come out in traffic though?