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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#2351 TheBunk

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:04

I think Button needs to sort out his qualifying issues. He gets way too far from Lewis. Are these tyre temp issues hurting him more than Lewis?

As for Lewis, I got to say maybe he really learned something. Hes more docile and was not doing anything banzai at the first part of the China race, but carefully picked his moments to attack cars. Maybe not so spectacular but it is effective.

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#2352 abc

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:14

I think if Lewis started from second and kept second after start, he would finish second. I dont see anything in laptimes to suggest otherwise. Car was not suited for 2 stop strategy and lewis was quick enough in 3 stop race to control gap to Jenson. Overall weekend to Lewis, race maybe to Button due to more effective overtaking.

#2353 robefc

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:22

I think Button needs to sort out his qualifying issues. He gets way too far from Lewis. Are these tyre temp issues hurting him more than Lewis?
As for Lewis, I got to say maybe he really learned something. Hes more docile and was not doing anything banzai at the first part of the China race, but carefully picked his moments to attack cars. Maybe not so spectacular but it is effective.


It appears they hurt him in china but you seem to be suggesting he's too far away from lewis generally, one spot and a tenth in the first two races was pretty damn close, I'd prefer it to be like china every race! (ahem, excluding penalties!)

Edited by robefc, 17 April 2012 - 12:31.


#2354 maverick69

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:22

I think if Lewis started from second and kept second after start, he would finish second. I dont see anything in laptimes to suggest otherwise. Car was not suited for 2 stop strategy and lewis was quick enough in 3 stop race to control gap to Jenson. Overall weekend to Lewis, race maybe to Button due to more effective overtaking.


He spent most of his time in traffic - and he was very quick at the end of the race after he'd got past Vettel.

Lots of if's and but's - but I'm pretty sure he would have been fighting for the win had he started in his initial position.

His luck is due to turn soon - and given the closeness of the field his qualy performances are going to start to bring him great rewards.

#2355 trogggy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:26

I think Button needs to sort out his qualifying issues. He gets way too far from Lewis. Are these tyre temp issues hurting him more than Lewis?

Which issues exactly?
His 'normal' qualifying is probably a couple of tenths behind Hamilton. In China the gap was bigger at least in part due to specific circumstances - LH setting his time in better conditions.
Are you talking about those last couple of tenths, or something else?


#2356 GlenP

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:27

Jenson still needs a tenth or two, ideally without hurting his race tyres. China differential was not typical, because of the big swing in track temp though Q3.

Ultimately it is to our (the viewers) benefit though that he has to make up the missing place(s) in the race itself - which he seems pretty ok at.

A warm race will be interesting. I'm actually strongly opposed to F1 endorsing the Bahrain regime at this time, with one very very minor equivocation: warm race, very soon!

#2357 ForzaGTR

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:31

It don't know why people keep saying Button needs to improve his qualifying to match Hamilton. Has anyone considered that perhaps Lewis is just faster over one lap?

#2358 Dalton007

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:32

What I've found impressive is that when Jenson goes on the attack he can overtake anybody and usually very cleanly. He's become a great all-rounder.

#2359 zack1994

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:36

It appears they hurt him in china but you seem to be suggesting he's too far away from lewis generally, one spot and a tenth in the first two races was pretty damn close, I'd prefer it to be like china every race! (ahem, excluding penalties!)

Exactly my thoughts.
I have no worries about jenson's qualifying, temperatures won't be a problem in bahrain.

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#2360 robefc

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:39

It don't know why people keep saying Button needs to improve his qualifying to match Hamilton. Has anyone considered that perhaps Lewis is just faster over one lap?


If it's the area where Lewis has the clearest advantage then it makes sense that it's the area that require the most improvement and would provide the most benefit, no?

You don't tell murray to stop trying to improve his forehand because Nadal's is better than his...

#2361 GlenP

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:41

It don't know why people keep saying Button needs to improve his qualifying to match Hamilton. Has anyone considered that perhaps Lewis is just faster over one lap?

I think everyone realises exactly that, but that doesn't mean he can't work on it a bit more. What would be an ideal minimum improvement is to make sure there aren't any other cars in between the two McLarens. Temperatures swinging and other random factors aside.

It is also possible that the remaining difference of a tenth or two is a difference that comes from set-up and style - since Button's car set-up and driving style are so good in the races perhaps he shouldn't be bothering chasing single lap performance if it might do harm on race day.

#2362 robefc

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:44

I think everyone realises exactly that, but that doesn't mean he can't work on it a bit more. What would be an ideal minimum improvement is to make sure there aren't any other cars in between the two McLarens. Temperatures swinging and other random factors aside.

It is also possible that the remaining difference of a tenth or two is a difference that comes from set-up and style - since Button's car set-up and driving style are so good in the races perhaps he shouldn't be bothering chasing single lap performance if it might do harm on race day.


Interesting that Lewis was talking about setting up the car much more for the race in china and it was there he had a much bigger gap, albeit with dropping track temps obscuring the picture. I can't remember Lewis's sectors relative to button's in the lap he aborted? I do think cooler temps may = a bigger gap between them assuming no mistakes.

#2363 GlenP

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:48

Interesting that Lewis was talking about setting up the car much more for the race in china and it was there he had a much bigger gap, albeit with dropping track temps obscuring the picture. I can't remember Lewis's sectors relative to button's in the lap he aborted? I do think cooler temps may = a bigger gap between them assuming no mistakes.

That would make sense.

Generally I'd expect set ups to get more and more race orientated as the season progresses, because the tyres are so marginal.

#2364 zack1994

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:49

Interesting that Lewis was talking about setting up the car much more for the race in china and it was there he had a much bigger gap, albeit with dropping track temps obscuring the picture. I can't remember Lewis's sectors relative to button's in the lap he aborted? I do think cooler temps may = a bigger gap between them assuming no mistakes.

Lewis matched his first sector but dropped 2 tenths in the middle sector and thats all we got.

#2365 robefc

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:53

Lewis matched his first sector but dropped 2 tenths in the middle sector and thats all we got.


Relative to button or to his first lap?

#2366 trogggy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:56

It don't know why people keep saying Button needs to improve his qualifying to match Hamilton. Has anyone considered that perhaps Lewis is just faster over one lap?

I think plenty of people just think that that's how it is. If he's a couple of tenths slower on average in ultimate pace then he'll win some qualis and hopefully - if the field isn't very close - be a place or two behind when he loses them.
Calling those last 2 tenths 'qualifying issues' is a bit daft to my mind* - drivers have different strengths, one of LH's is clearly single lap pace.
If he's regularly losing out by much more than a couple of tenths, though, or in particular conditions (the old 'heat in the tyres' thing - then that's something else.
*I'm not clear that the Bunk was doing that.

#2367 trogggy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:59

Generally I'd expect set ups to get more and more race orientated as the season progresses, because the tyres are so marginal.

I'm not so sure about that. There's been plenty of talk post-China about the benefits (to the tyres) of running in clean air. It's a small sample, but both dry races have been won by the car that exited turn 1 first.

#2368 Burtros

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:03

I'm not so sure about that. There's been plenty of talk post-China about the benefits (to the tyres) of running in clean air. It's a small sample, but both dry races have been won by the car that exited turn 1 first.


no its more a feature of F1 these days that its easier to win from the front. How many races did vettel win last year just through having a fast, clean opening stint. Thats what Button and Rosberg have done for thier wins this year.

In china particularly I see nothing to say 'Dirty Air' plays a race-defining part.

#2369 GlenP

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:05

I'm not so sure about that. There's been plenty of talk post-China about the benefits (to the tyres) of running in clean air. It's a small sample, but both dry races have been won by the car that exited turn 1 first.

Good point.

#2370 TheBunk

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:12

Which issues exactly?
His 'normal' qualifying is probably a couple of tenths behind Hamilton. In China the gap was bigger at least in part due to specific circumstances - LH setting his time in better conditions.
Are you talking about those last couple of tenths, or something else?



It don't know why people keep saying Button needs to improve his qualifying to match Hamilton. Has anyone considered that perhaps Lewis is just faster over one lap?


Throughout 2011, the gap was around 1 tenth. Thats acceptable. Saturday it was half a second. Thats too far imo. Besides I dont think Lewis is inherently quicker over one lap than Jenson. Hes just able to deal better with unbalanced cars. When the car is good, theres hardly anything between them. Thats the way it should be for Mclarens world championship fight.



#2371 sofarapartguy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:12

If LH is naturally 1,5 tenth quicker in qualy then so be it. I don't mind as long as Button remains faster in the races and finishes in front of LH. Agree that better quali pace would definitely make life easer though, but you can't have everything going your way.

#2372 trogggy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:15

no its more a feature of F1 these days that its easier to win from the front. How many races did vettel win last year just through having a fast, clean opening stint. Thats what Button and Rosberg have done for thier wins this year.

In china particularly I see nothing to say 'Dirty Air' plays a race-defining part.

Mercs managing their tyres as well as they did is one indication. Certainly far from conclusive, and I'm making no claims.
Except that it's silly to just write 'No', obviously.

#2373 Markn93

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:17

Throughout 2011, the gap was around 1 tenth. Thats acceptable. Saturday it was half a second. Thats too far imo. Besides I dont think Lewis is inherently quicker over one lap than Jenson. Hes just able to deal better with unbalanced cars. When the car is good, theres hardly anything between them. Thats the way it should be for Mclarens world championship fight.


Whilst I agree with this and Jenson admitted it too in a BBC interview last pre-season, we haven't heard JB complaining of an unbalanced car after quali, and it's not something he's refrained from doing in the past, on the contrary he's complimented Lewis on a good lap, so I think it's clear Lewis has the edge on one lap pace (I'll be interested to know their average difference and scorecard in quali from 2010 if someone knows).

#2374 trogggy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:17

Throughout 2011, the gap was around 1 tenth. Thats acceptable. Saturday it was half a second. Thats too far imo. Besides I dont think Lewis is inherently quicker over one lap than Jenson. Hes just able to deal better with unbalanced cars. When the car is good, theres hardly anything between them. Thats the way it should be for Mclarens world championship fight.

Saturday was 2 laps in different conditions. You're comparing apples with oranges.
1 tenth sounds a bit low to me for 2011, anyone have a link to the figures?

#2375 maverick69

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:18

Mercs managing their tyres as well as they did is one indication. Certainly far from conclusive, and I'm making no claims.
Except that it's silly to just write 'No', obviously.


Not only that - but most of the teams talked about how their tyres went to shit rather quickly whilst in traffic.

I think that being out in front, in normal conditions, has massive gravity this year.

#2376 trogggy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:20

Not only that - but most of the teams talked about how their tyres went to shit rather quickly whilst in traffic.

I think that being out in front, in normal conditions, has massive gravity this year.

I didn't want to write that because I'd expect the reply to be 'Link?' and I'm too busy. :D

#2377 TheBunk

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:22

Whilst I agree with this and Jenson admitted it too in a BBC interview last pre-season, we haven't heard JB complaining of an unbalanced car after quali, and it's not something he's refrained from doing in the past, on the contrary he's complimented Lewis on a good lap, so I think it's clear Lewis has the edge on one lap pace (I'll be interested to know their average difference and scorecard in quali from 2010 if someone knows).


He complained all weekend over difficulty with understeer and front tyres that didnt work to his liking.

Saturday was 2 laps in different conditions. You're comparing apples with oranges.
1 tenth sounds a bit low to me for 2011, anyone have a link to the figures?


The sheet is somewhere in another thread, the difference between Button and Hamilton over 2011 was around 0.115 something like that.

#2378 zack1994

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:23

Relative to button or to his first lap?

His first lap.

#2379 TheBunk

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:26

If LH is naturally 1,5 tenth quicker in qualy then so be it. I don't mind as long as Button remains faster in the races and finishes in front of LH. Agree that better quali pace would definitely make life easer though, but you can't have everything going your way.



Buttons race form is pretty good, thankfully. Hes gonna need it if Lewis 2.0 keeps scoring points.

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#2380 Markn93

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:29

He complained all weekend over difficulty with understeer and front tyres that didnt work to his liking.


He said they made adjustments in Q2 and didn't mention lack of balance in Q3 but as has been pointed out this week was an anomaly, I was mainly referring to first couple of races.

#2381 sofarapartguy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:44

Buttons race form is pretty good, thankfully. Hes gonna need it if Lewis 2.0 keeps scoring points.

Well Button would have been ahead in the WDC, had not there been a collision with Narain. So I think it's more up to Lewis and his race pace, if JB keeps racing on Sundays like he does now.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 17 April 2012 - 13:44.


#2382 maverick69

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:46

Well Button would have been ahead in the WDC, had not there been a collision with Narain. So I think it's more up to Lewis and his race pace, if JB keeps racing on Sundays like he does now.


...... and Lewis might have won in China if he'd started where he qualified......

#2383 Markn93

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:48

Well Button would have been ahead in the WDC, had not there been a collision with Narain. So I think it's more up to Lewis and his race pace, if JB keeps racing on Sundays like he does now.


That works both ways, Lewis would be further ahead if he didn't have a gearbox change and subsequent grid penalty whilst also getting unlucky with the SC in Australia. As Sir Alex (Ferguson) says this stuff evens itself out over a season.

Edit: Maverick beat me to it :wave:

Edited by Markn93, 17 April 2012 - 13:48.


#2384 TheBunk

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:50

Indeed, thats racing. Its been pretty close now anyway. That can only be good for Mclaren.

#2385 sofarapartguy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:54

That works both ways, Lewis would be further ahead if he didn't have a gearbox change and subsequent grid penalty whilst also getting unlucky with the SC in Australia. As Sir Alex (Ferguson) says this stuff evens itself out over a season.

Edit: Maverick beat me to it :wave:


Well, he wouldn't) He would be still behind JB in OZ, ahead in Malazia and almost surely behind in China. But that is OT, so let's not get thread this way)

#2386 maverick69

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:56

Well, he wouldn't) He would be still behind JB in OZ, ahead in Malazia and almost surely behind in China. But that is OT, so let's not get thread this way)


Eh?

#2387 Markn93

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:57

Well, he wouldn't) He would be still behind JB in OZ, ahead in Malazia and almost surely behind in China. But that is OT, so let's not get thread this way)


Yes he would be behind JB, apart from China, but he would have gained other positions ( 2nd from Seb in Aus for example) thus increasing his lead, as I said.

Edited by Markn93, 17 April 2012 - 13:57.


#2388 Obi Offiah

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:59

What I've found impressive is that when Jenson goes on the attack he can overtake anybody and usually very cleanly. He's become a great all-rounder.

:up: :up:

#2389 BernieEc

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 14:16

Well, he wouldn't) He would be still behind JB in OZ, ahead in Malazia and almost surely behind in China. But that is OT, so let's not get thread this way)

can I make a calculated guess that you don't reaally like LH...........

#2390 GlenP

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 14:39

There just isn't enough to go on. Too few races, not enough differences. The only thing of any significance that separates them is Jenson's error in Sepang, putting Lewis slightly ahead. Nico's China race was excellent - it is doubtful if either McLaren could have caught him... one certainly can't say Lewis would definitely have won China. Maybe without the gearbox penalty they should have swapped finishing places - nothing in it really.

#2391 Force Ten

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 14:51

Saturday was 2 laps in different conditions. You're comparing apples with oranges.
1 tenth sounds a bit low to me for 2011, anyone have a link to the figures?

2011 was 1 to 2 tenths on the second part of the season coupled with the odd half a second one thrown in between. First half was worse for JB if I remember correctly.

#2392 bonjon1979a

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:22

What I've found impressive is that when Jenson goes on the attack he can overtake anybody and usually very cleanly. He's become a great all-rounder.


That isn't what happened in Malaysia.

Actually looking at the head to head times in Malaysia and you'll see that Button was nowhere near Hamilton's times at any point in the race. Now there may've been traffic but why didn't he pass them if he has become this great all rounder and there were clearly times in the race when he did have clean air. I've read a lot of people saying that Jenson has had better race pace in all three races and I don't think that's true at all. Look on f1matrix.it for comparisons - i think people are drawing very hasty conclusions from a few atypical races. We'll see what happens later on in the season but for now both seem to be doing a solid job, I don't think we can really say too much else about their relative performances though.

#2393 trogggy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:25

That isn't what happened in Malaysia.

Actually looking at the head to head times in Malaysia and you'll see that Button was nowhere near Hamilton's times at any point in the race. Now there may've been traffic but why didn't he pass them if he has become this great all rounder and there were clearly times in the race when he did have clean air. I've read a lot of people saying that Jenson has had better race pace in all three races and I don't think that's true at all. Look on f1matrix.it for comparisons - i think people are drawing very hasty conclusions from a few atypical races. We'll see what happens later on in the season but for now both seem to be doing a solid job, I don't think we can really say too much else about their relative performances though.

Where?
You can argue Australia and China, but I don't recall floods (or any for that matter) of posts claiming he was faster in Malaysia.

#2394 zack1994

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:31

That isn't what happened in Malaysia.

Actually looking at the head to head times in Malaysia and you'll see that Button was nowhere near Hamilton's times at any point in the race. Now there may've been traffic but why didn't he pass them if he has become this great all rounder and there were clearly times in the race when he did have clean air. I've read a lot of people saying that Jenson has had better race pace in all three races and I don't think that's true at all. Look on f1matrix.it for comparisons - i think people are drawing very hasty conclusions from a few atypical races. We'll see what happens later on in the season but for now both seem to be doing a solid job, I don't think we can really say too much else about their relative performances though.

Agreed in malaysia lewis was quicker, in australia jenson was quicker and in china there pace was a match.

#2395 robefc

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:32

Agreed in malaysia lewis was quicker, in australia jenson was quicker and in china there pace was a match.


boring!!!

:p

#2396 zack1994

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:39

boring!!!

:p

:)

#2397 ZooL

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:40

Relative to button or to his first lap?

when the track was cool hamilton was 2 tenths faster after s2 compared to buttoms equiv time before he aborted his run and pitted.

#2398 sofarapartguy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:47

can I make a calculated guess that you don't reaally like LH...........


Wrong. I don't really like TDG image created by fans, but I highly respect his abilities and personality. Just a bit happier for JB.

#2399 bonjon1979a

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:56

Where?
You can argue Australia and China, but I don't recall floods (or any for that matter) of posts claiming he was faster in Malaysia.


Go and look over the thread - there are a number of posters saying that had Jenson not hit NK he would've beaten Hamilton because his pace was better, also a number of posters saying that Jenson has had better race pace this year while Lewis has done better in qualifying. I'm not sure that the evidence for that stacks up nor will it until we've done a few more races. At the moment I'd say they were looking pretty even in the race.

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#2400 trogggy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 15:59

Go and look over the thread - there are a number of posters saying that had Jenson not hit NK he would've beaten Hamilton because his pace was better, also a number of posters saying that Jenson has had better race pace this year while Lewis has done better in qualifying. I'm not sure that the evidence for that stacks up nor will it until we've done a few more races. At the moment I'd say they were looking pretty even in the race.

I was kind of hoping you were going to point me at the hordes of posts claiming he was faster in Malaysia. Oh well.
I do recall a couple of posts to the effect that he'd have kept his position - I'm not of that opinion myself - but that's about it.