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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#2451 Markn93

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:40

2010 Hamilton > Button 0.22s
2011 Hamilton > Button 0.22s
2012 Hamilton > Button 0.21s


Wow, really interesting, seems like whatever the car, track, circumstance, etc that Lewis is about 2ths faster over one lap. Thanks :up:

Edited by Markn93, 18 April 2012 - 19:41.


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#2452 tyker

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:53

He did outqualify him 10-7.

2007 Hamilton > Alonso 0.08s

#2453 tyker

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:02

Wow, really interesting, seems like whatever the car, track, circumstance, etc that Lewis is about 2ths faster over one lap. Thanks :up:

My pleasure :)

#2454 PretentiousBread

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:06

They still do.


When the tyres hold up yeah, but otherwise it's a contest of who uses up their life in the most effective way, not who is 'fastest' in the normal sense of the word. Massa and Webber were getting destroyed last year by their teammates because they're not getting their tyres in the window they need to be, their corners went on for too long and the Pirellis couldn't take that in the way that the Bridgestones could. Look at 2010, Massa and Webber were closer with the more raceable tyres - they were still getting beaten mainly because Alonso and Vettel are just faster. Granted it's not as simple as that, Massa's malaise is definitely not just down to the tyres and is most likely a combination of many different things, and Webber's defecit to Vettel in qualifying was mostly to do with the EBD.

I've argued the tyres hinder Hamilton because he simply can't drive anything close to flat out - he derives his speed edge over Button from the way he manipulates the car and hurries the direction change, right on the edge of adhesion - do this lap after lap and the tyres will be wrecked since sliding is such a cardinal sin these days, so he is forced to drive more in Jenson's style in the race (the only sensible way to drive on these tyres), and we all know JB has that style down to a T, on top of the fact that he's even driving within himself in his own style. So if JB is maximising the pace from the tyres, how is Hamilton meant to be able to drive faster than him without going over their point of equilibrium? Hamilton cannot do better than match JB, unless Jenson is struggling himself to look after the tyres, or has some sort of issue with the overall balance of the car. Look at China 2011, Hamilton was faster than JB because he looked after his rears better. Then you look at Abu Dhabi 2011 and he was faster, because he was just faster (at the points in the race where JB's KERS was fully functional), the tyres weren't such an issue and Hamilton could use his inherent pace at a track he's a bit of a specialist at to good effect. Korea and Germany were another couple of examples.

I'm not saying Hamilton would always be the faster one when tyres aren't an issue (e.g.India 2011), just that his speed advantage in qualifying would tend to carry over to the race more often, which barely ever happens now that everyone's wearing their Pirelli straight jackets. Sergio Perez claims that he uses one racing line in qualifying and another in the race because of the tyres. Says it all really - the game has changed. Anyone who doesn't believe me, listen to James Calado's account of his GP2 win at Malaysia recently of how he won on the Pirellis, (watch from 26.30):



Racing at Malaysia represents the extremities of tyre babying required on Pirelli rubber, but every race features the same principle, just to varying degrees.



#2455 PretentiousBread

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:09

Wow, really interesting, seems like whatever the car, track, circumstance, etc that Lewis is about 2ths faster over one lap. Thanks :up:


http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

 ;)

#2456 gricey1981

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:17

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

;)


lol jenson does always take it well!

Great video

#2457 ayanate

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:19

It depends what you mean by "raw" race pace. I don't think you can separate tyre wear from the equation because it will always be a key factor with the Pirellis. If you want a comparison between Hamilton and Button where tyre wear is irrelevant you would do better to look at 2010. During their one Bridgestone season as teammates Button did not finish ahead of Hamilton in a single dry race where neither had a problem. This is not to devalue Button's achievements in 2011 and his impressive race pace so far this season. I just think it's fairly clear that tyre wear can no longer be removed from a debate about race pace. It is an integral component of it.

There will always be reasons that anybody can sight as to why driver A is faster than driver B. We Hamilton fans were not buying Alonso's excuses for losing to a rookie; no matter how legitimate the claims were. We were mostly convinced that we were witnessing the second coming and I would add that I still believe he is. So I expect him to adapt his skills and gain the upperhand on Button. They are in the same team and they both start from 0 points, any excuses for not performing are just that, excuses!!

#2458 Obi Offiah

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:22



Racing at Malaysia represents the extremities of tyre babying required on Pirelli rubber, but every race features the same principle, just to varying degrees.

That didn't sound good at all. Tyre management should be part of a drivers arsenal, but those comments from James suggest to me they have gone too far in the direction of tyre degradation.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 19 April 2012 - 02:31.


#2459 tyker

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:26

To be fair Hamilton is lighter than Button though which makes a difference

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#2460 sofarapartguy

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:27

If Lewis was really faster than Jenson this season, it would show in those 14 laps.


Couldn't agree more.

#2461 bauss

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:46

To be fair Hamilton is lighter than Button though which makes a difference


I assure you that means Lewis drives with more ballast... in terms of weight distribution or center of gravity, it usually cant be much better than the driver position.

#2462 PretentiousBread

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:54

I assure you that means Lewis drives with more ballast... in terms of weight distribution or center of gravity, it usually cant be much better than the driver position.


I think he just meant about the go-karting clip.

#2463 tyker

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:57

I think he just meant about the go-karting clip.

Yes thats what i meant

#2464 Lights

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 21:06

2010 Hamilton > Button 0.22s
2011 Hamilton > Button 0.22s
2012 Hamilton > Button 0.21s

How did you get that? Not saying I don't believe it, just genuinely want to know how you calculated this. What sessions are taken into account, did you remove outliers etc. etc.?

#2465 tyker

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 21:21

How did you get that? Not saying I don't believe it, just genuinely want to know how you calculated this. What sessions are taken into account, did you remove outliers etc. etc.?

I take the fastest lap over the three qualifying sessions, i dont include sessions where one driver has not competed in or has been unable to set a representative time, i dont include wet sessions

#2466 Lights

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 21:34

I take the fastest lap over the three qualifying sessions, i dont include sessions where one driver has not competed in or has been unable to set a representative time, i dont include wet sessions

Thanks! Although these numbers tend to be a bit in Jenson's favour as I expect him to have had more difficulties in sessions now and then, needing more laps than Lewis to get through. Nevertheless, the biggest surprise is actually that the gap in 2010 was so small, and as small as 2011. This year I expect it to decrease. Jenson will out-qualify Lewis sooner than later, based on previous years.

#2467 tyker

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 22:07

Thanks! Although these numbers tend to be a bit in Jenson's favour as I expect him to have had more difficulties in sessions now and then, needing more laps than Lewis to get through. Nevertheless, the biggest surprise is actually that the gap in 2010 was so small, and as small as 2011. This year I expect it to decrease. Jenson will out-qualify Lewis sooner than later, based on previous years.

Yes if Button outqualifies Hamilton a few times like he did in 2010 and 2011 then the gap this year could well be smaller

#2468 as65p

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 23:10

The driver should definitely make the difference, but that doesn't have to mean in tyre preservation. A driver should also have the opportunity to make the difference because, for example, he is faster than his rival. I think the problem lots of people have with the current tyres is that success in the race relies too much on one aspect of driver skill. It is not an inferior aspect of driver skill, but it is just one aspect. I think we need to find a bit more of a balance, and in doing so give drivers a chance to demonstrate their whole range of talents.


I think the alleged fragility of the Pirellis is greatly exaggerated. We've seen lot's of dicing and closely following other cars, etc. Much of it only possible because of KERS / DRS, but evidently the tyres can take that kind of close racing. The one difference to former tyre generations seem the pronounced cliff instead of slow degradation, but even that we've had before, only not as a feature. Earlier tyre generations were prone to blistering, which would kill performance just the same as the Pirellis "cliff". The extremely durable Bridgestones of '07 to '10 were the exception, not the norm.

#2469 zack1994

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 23:43

When the tyres hold up yeah, but otherwise it's a contest of who uses up their life in the most effective way, not who is 'fastest' in the normal sense of the word. Massa and Webber were getting destroyed last year by their teammates because they're not getting their tyres in the window they need to be, their corners went on for too long and the Pirellis couldn't take that in the way that the Bridgestones could. Look at 2010, Massa and Webber were closer with the more raceable tyres - they were still getting beaten mainly because Alonso and Vettel are just faster. Granted it's not as simple as that, Massa's malaise is definitely not just down to the tyres and is most likely a combination of many different things, and Webber's defecit to Vettel in qualifying was mostly to do with the EBD.

I've argued the tyres hinder Hamilton because he simply can't drive anything close to flat out - he derives his speed edge over Button from the way he manipulates the car and hurries the direction change, right on the edge of adhesion - do this lap after lap and the tyres will be wrecked since sliding is such a cardinal sin these days, so he is forced to drive more in Jenson's style in the race (the only sensible way to drive on these tyres), and we all know JB has that style down to a T, on top of the fact that he's even driving within himself in his own style. So if JB is maximising the pace from the tyres, how is Hamilton meant to be able to drive faster than him without going over their point of equilibrium? Hamilton cannot do better than match JB, unless Jenson is struggling himself to look after the tyres, or has some sort of issue with the overall balance of the car. Look at China 2011, Hamilton was faster than JB because he looked after his rears better. Then you look at Abu Dhabi 2011 and he was faster, because he was just faster (at the points in the race where JB's KERS was fully functional), the tyres weren't such an issue and Hamilton could use his inherent pace at a track he's a bit of a specialist at to good effect. Korea and Germany were another couple of examples.

I'm not saying Hamilton would always be the faster one when tyres aren't an issue (e.g.India 2011), just that his speed advantage in qualifying would tend to carry over to the race more often, which barely ever happens now that everyone's wearing their Pirelli straight jackets. Sergio Perez claims that he uses one racing line in qualifying and another in the race because of the tyres. Says it all really - the game has changed. Anyone who doesn't believe me, listen to James Calado's account of his GP2 win at Malaysia recently of how he won on the Pirellis, (watch from 26.30):



Racing at Malaysia represents the extremities of tyre babying required on Pirelli rubber, but every race features the same principle, just to varying degrees.

So what your saying is jenson can be closer to his limit than lewis can? If so i don't agree but fair enough.
Do you think losing tyre performance therefore grip and balance are the best conditions for jenson to be at his best that sounds like lewis's area.
Being faster with 2 laps of fuel onbaord in quali doesn't mean your going to be faster with 56 laps onboard and button's race pace has always been better than his quali pace.
These regulations are made out by some to be perfect for button and against lewis natural style but thats just not true.

Edited by zack1994, 18 April 2012 - 23:44.


#2470 hammibal

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:01

So what your saying is jenson can be closer to his limit than lewis can? If so i don't agree but fair enough.
Do you think losing tyre performance therefore grip and balance are the best conditions for jenson to be at his best that sounds like lewis's area.
Being faster with 2 laps of fuel onbaord in quali doesn't mean your going to be faster with 56 laps onboard and button's race pace has always been better than his quali pace.
These regulations are made out by some to be perfect for button and against lewis natural style but thats just not true.

I think you need to listen to the James Calado interview, you cant push to the limit on these tyres in the race

#2471 Dunder

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:23

I think you need to listen to the James Calado interview, you cant push to the limit on these tyres in the race


Oh come on. The sprint race that Calado won is 22 laps long (no stops) and on one of the toughest tracks of the year in terms of rear tyre degradation.

With a three stop F1 race, the average stint would be 14 laps.


#2472 zack1994

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:07

I think you need to listen to the James Calado interview, you cant push to the limit on these tyres in the race

Wasn't my point.
My point is i don't agree that lewis suffers more because of the pirellis and that these regulations are perfect for button.
PrententiousBread's point about lewis not being able to be at his limit and jenson can be at his because if he was his tyres would degrade.
First point they don't drive balls out like in quali because they can't because of heavy fuel
Secondly why isn't this a problem for alonso aswell he is faster than massa in qualifying closer to the edge than massa right on the edge of adhesion.

#2473 as65p

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:33

Wasn't my point.
My point is i don't agree that lewis suffers more because of the pirellis and that these regulations are perfect for button.
PrententiousBread's point about lewis not being able to be at his limit and jenson can be at his because if he was his tyres would degrade.
First point they don't drive balls out like in quali because they can't because of heavy fuel
Secondly why isn't this a problem for alonso aswell he is faster than massa in qualifying closer to the edge than massa right on the edge of adhesion.


Well, guess you're onto something. There has been no undue change in the pecking order of the drivers since they race on Pirellis, other than projected one between Hamilton and Button. And let's not forget the tiny fact that, so far, we haven't heard any substantial complaints from Hamilton himself about the tyres, let alone him blaming them for his performance in relation to Button.

#2474 bauss

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:37

Thanks! Although these numbers tend to be a bit in Jenson's favour as I expect him to have had more difficulties in sessions now and then, needing more laps than Lewis to get through. Nevertheless, the biggest surprise is actually that the gap in 2010 was so small, and as small as 2011. This year I expect it to decrease. Jenson will out-qualify Lewis sooner than later, based on previous years.


It is not so certain, the loss in EBD overrun probably favors LH for qualy (he always seemed to have a defined advantage in slow speed sections over JB in 2010, this was reduced in 2011)...and likely the opposite in the race (rear tires go through more punishment)

though on the other hand, the latter point should mean cars are more setup with understeer in mind for the race weekend which should bring JB back in.

Though I do wonder if the emergence of the harder tire as the prime race tire this season will have any effect on optimal race setup.

it's not straightforward...will be fascinating to watch. I reckon race pace will be fairly equal overall this year due to the tires.

The battle will probably be won in qualy, consistency and little details (starts, penalties etc).

Edited by bauss, 19 April 2012 - 09:39.


#2475 maverick69

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:39

Erm. Massa? Really?

Come on. He's been absolute toilet since his accident. How can you use him as a point of reference :rolleyes:

#2476 PretentiousBread

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:39

Wasn't my point.
My point is i don't agree that lewis suffers more because of the pirellis and that these regulations are perfect for button.
PrententiousBread's point about lewis not being able to be at his limit and jenson can be at his because if he was his tyres would degrade.
First point they don't drive balls out like in quali because they can't because of heavy fuel
Secondly why isn't this a problem for alonso aswell he is faster than massa in qualifying closer to the edge than massa right on the edge of adhesion.


I already explained that in my original post. Massa is slower in virtually every scenario to Alonso, whether it be qualifying (outright speed) or in the race (tyre management). The two are separate disciplines and he evidently isn't great at either these days. Alonso isn't destroying Massa in the race because he is faster flat out, it's because he's using his tyres more effectively.

EDIT: Btw I never said Hamilton was driving within himself and JB wasn't, they're both driving well, well within themselves, lifting off early into corners, careful on the throttle, not taking ad much speed through the corners as they know they can, all just to keep the tyres in check. Sorry, but F1 has never been like this where virtually everyone is doing this all at the same time.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 19 April 2012 - 10:52.


#2477 Juggles

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:41

Wasn't my point.
My point is i don't agree that lewis suffers more because of the pirellis and that these regulations are perfect for button.
PrententiousBread's point about lewis not being able to be at his limit and jenson can be at his because if he was his tyres would degrade.
First point they don't drive balls out like in quali because they can't because of heavy fuel
Secondly why isn't this a problem for alonso aswell he is faster than massa in qualifying closer to the edge than massa right on the edge of adhesion.


Neither can be at their limit but that puts Hamilton at more of a disadvantage than Button because, as shown on the Bridgestones where tyre preservation was a non-issue, Hamilton's limit is higher than Button's. I don't think "perfect" is the right word to describe how these regulations suit Button, but it seems clear to me that they have moved in a direction which is more beneficial to him than Hamilton.

#2478 PretentiousBread

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:43

So what your saying is jenson can be closer to his limit than lewis can? If so i don't agree but fair enough.
Do you think losing tyre performance therefore grip and balance are the best conditions for jenson to be at his best that sounds like lewis's area.
Being faster with 2 laps of fuel onbaord in quali doesn't mean your going to be faster with 56 laps onboard and button's race pace has always been better than his quali pace.
These regulations are made out by some to be perfect for button and against lewis natural style but thats just not true.


It's about measuring out your average pace across a stint, as soon as the tyres properly go away they pit, so we don't get to see this facet of their abilities. If they were both on heavily worn tyres with a horrible balance i'd expect Hamilton to manage better, but they never get to that stage - the whole game is about avoiding that ever happening.

#2479 Lights

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:55

It is not so certain, the loss in EBD overrun probably favors LH for qualy (he always seemed to have a defined advantage in slow speed sections over JB in 2010, this was reduced in 2011)...and likely the opposite in the race (rear tires go through more punishment)

though on the other hand, the latter point should mean cars are more setup with understeer in mind for the race weekend which should bring JB back in.

Though I do wonder if the emergence of the harder tire as the prime race tire this season will have any effect on optimal race setup.

it's not straightforward...will be fascinating to watch. I reckon race pace will be fairly equal overall this year due to the tires.

The battle will probably be won in qualy, consistency and little details (starts, penalties etc).

I'm not sure it can all be so easily put down to tires and EBD. I actually believe Jenson not feeling entirely comfortable in his 2010 car had a larger effect than what is the consensus here.

Many thought the loss of EBD would put Jenson back but if you look at Melbourne and Sepang qualy, and the races in Melbourne and China, we can definitely say this isn't the case. He's more leveled with Lewis than ever.

Agree on the bold part, it's definitely going to be in the little details. I think both drivers can be consistent enough for the championship. Lewis seems to have a slight edge in qualy, Jenson in tyre management.

It simply depends on the conditions who will prevail. At this point it really can go either way and it's quite exciting.

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#2480 peroa

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:33

I'm not sure it can all be so easily put down to tires and EBD. I actually believe Jenson not feeling entirely comfortable in his 2010 car had a larger effect than what is the consensus here.

Many thought the loss of EBD would put Jenson back but if you look at Melbourne and Sepang qualy, and the races in Melbourne and China, we can definitely say this isn't the case. He's more leveled with Lewis than ever.

Agree on the bold part, it's definitely going to be in the little details. I think both drivers can be consistent enough for the championship. Lewis seems to have a slight edge in qualy, Jenson in tyre management.

It simply depends on the conditions who will prevail. At this point it really can go either way and it's quite exciting.

Maybe the reason is a (most of the times anyway) perfectly balanced MP4-27.
I'd like to see what JB would do in the F2012 and the RB8.

#2481 GlenP

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:36

Maybe the reason is a (most of the times anyway) perfectly balanced MP4-27.
I'd like to see what JB would do in the F2012 and the RB8.

Keep on working on the car 'til it was good enough?

#2482 peroa

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:46

Keep on working on the car 'til it was good enough?

I didn't know he has an engineering degree.

#2483 slmk

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:11

I'm not sure it can all be so easily put down to tires and EBD. I actually believe Jenson not feeling entirely comfortable in his 2010 car had a larger effect than what is the consensus here.

Many thought the loss of EBD would put Jenson back but if you look at Melbourne and Sepang qualy, and the races in Melbourne and China, we can definitely say this isn't the case. He's more leveled with Lewis than ever.

Agree on the bold part, it's definitely going to be in the little details. I think both drivers can be consistent enough for the championship. Lewis seems to have a slight edge in qualy, Jenson in tyre management.

It simply depends on the conditions who will prevail. At this point it really can go either way and it's quite exciting.


I agree that Jenson has the edge in tyre management but in quali, he hasn't made much progress with respect to Lewis. He was outqualified by 0.5s in China (after outqualifying Lewis the past 2 years) and could have been outqualified by the same margin in Malaysia had Lewis not missed his braking point at the last corner in Malaysia (costing 2-3 tenths).

Edited by slmk, 19 April 2012 - 11:14.


#2484 GlenP

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:11

I didn't know he has an engineering degree.

Didn't know you you didn't realise it was a team sport. Just because, for the sake of brevity and commonsense, I didn't specify that the driver would not be working alone that's not an invitation for ludicrous pedantic replies. Although you are of course free the reply in that manner if you don't mind looking silly.

I meant that an approach that centred on improving the car, rather than driving around the problems, would be best.

#2485 Lazy

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:23

I already explained that in my original post. Massa is slower in virtually every scenario to Alonso, whether it be qualifying (outright speed) or in the race (tyre management). The two are separate disciplines and he evidently isn't great at either these days. Alonso isn't destroying Massa in the race because he is faster flat out, it's because he's using his tyres more effectively.

EDIT: Btw I never said Hamilton was driving within himself and JB wasn't, they're both driving well, well within themselves, lifting off early into corners, careful on the throttle, not taking ad much speed through the corners as they know they can, all just to keep the tyres in check. Sorry, but F1 has never been like this where virtually everyone is doing this all at the same time.


Actually it's always been like that, the time when Bridgestone were the only supplier was less so but that was the exception. We just hear about it more now along with a load of technical information that wasn't available to the public before.

#2486 Lights

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:35

Maybe the reason is a (most of the times anyway) perfectly balanced MP4-27.
I'd like to see what JB would do in the F2012 and the RB8.

Sure, why not, because there has to be a reason, right? He can't just be, good.

#2487 Lights

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:38

I agree that Jenson has the edge in tyre management but in quali, he hasn't made much progress with respect to Lewis. He was outqualified by 0.5s in China (after outqualifying Lewis the past 2 years) and could have been outqualified by the same margin in Malaysia had Lewis not missed his braking point at the last corner in Malaysia (costing 2-3 tenths).

Then perhaps Lewis shouldn't miss his braking point?

#2488 PretentiousBread

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:43

Actually it's always been like that, the time when Bridgestone were the only supplier was less so but that was the exception. We just hear about it more now along with a load of technical information that wasn't available to the public before.


Teams are fuelling up lighter for the race because everyone is lifting off earlyinto the corners, that's a new development. After his first time driving on Pirellis this is what Hamilton had to say:

"It's very strange.....even compared to last year, when we had heavy fuel and you had to drive it a little easier at the beginning of the race to preserve the tyres. The tyres just go away so fast and there's nothing you can do about it. I didn't feel like I was really racing the car." and in a separate interview "it's not racing, it's just driving around."



And who said he has never complained about the tyres? He has, it's just that he prefers to get on with it rather than dwell on it.

Just look at the chasm in difference of laptime between pole position and fastest race lap these days, sometimes up to around 7 seconds. Just at a glance at Forix, taking the Australian GP as an example, back in the 1980's and 90's there is a reasonable gap between pole and fastest lap, usually between 1-3 seconds. Generally (looking at all GPs) the gap did grow bigger in 2010 with the full fuel tanks again (as they had pre-1994) but then got much bigger in 2011, with DRS only accounting for some of the difference. The biggest gaps between pole and fastest lap (excluding wet sessions) happened at circuits full of high-speed and or long duration corners, such as Barcelona, Hungary, Silverstone, Suzuka etc. where the tyres needed most looking after - again backing up mine and many other's assertion that Red Bull couldn't run and hide in the races last year because they were so tyre limited. It's the same principle with Hamilton, albeit to a far lesser extent, as a flat out JB is a close match for him.

#2489 as65p

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:50

Teams are fuelling up lighter for the race because everyone is lifting off earlyinto the corners, that's a new development. After his first time driving on Pirellis this is what Hamilton had to say:


And who said he has never complained about the tyres? He has, it's just that he prefers to get on with it rather than dwell on it.

Just look at the chasm in difference of laptime between pole position and fastest race lap these days, sometimes up to around 7 seconds. Just at a glance at Forix, taking the Australian GP as an example, back in the 1980's and 90's there is a reasonable gap between pole and fastest lap, usually between 1-3 seconds. Generally (looking at all GPs) the gap did grow bigger in 2010 with the full fuel tanks again (as they had pre-1994) but then got much bigger in 2011, with DRS only accounting for some of the difference. The biggest gaps between pole and fastest lap (excluding wet sessions) happened at circuits full of high-speed and or long duration corners, such as Barcelona, Hungary, Silverstone, Suzuka etc. where the tyres needed most looking after - again backing up mine and many other's assertion that Red Bull couldn't run and hide in the races last year because they were so tyre limited. It's the same principle with Hamilton, albeit to a far lesser extent, as a flat out JB is a close match for him.


Can you explain then how drivers are able to make a difference? If what you say were true, teammates should post almost identical laptimes in the races, "just driving around".


#2490 GlenP

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:12

Can you explain then how drivers are able to make a difference? If what you say were true, teammates should post almost identical laptimes in the races, "just driving around".

:up: This simply the latest version of the same old discussion that has gone round and round in F1 for decades. If it were true that cars drove themselves, that driver aids dominate, that engineers do all the running, that tyres equal out the field etc etc (whatever the latest version of this old chestnut is - today it's Pirelli tyres) then each pair of cars would follow line-astern and drivers wouldn't be paid millions.

But it isn't true.

#2491 Obi Offiah

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:16

Drivers can definitely make a difference with the current regs. But compared to the last sports car race I watched, its funny how endurance racing such as Le Man has turned into a 24hr sprint race whereas F1 has gone in the opposite direction.

#2492 PretentiousBread

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:19

Can you explain then how drivers are able to make a difference? If what you say were true, teammates should post almost identical laptimes in the races, "just driving around".


It's about finding that equilibrium between speed and tyre management, JB had found that low ceiling of performance and is sitting on it - Hamilton can't do better than match that. It's a fine line JB has found that not everyone can, so it's not that it's easy, but that it's a different discipline, one that only used to apply if you were 'going long' on a strategy, whereas everyone is forced into this pacing now because of the P-Zero's characteristics.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 19 April 2012 - 12:22.


#2493 as65p

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:48

It's about finding that equilibrium between speed and tyre management, JB had found that low ceiling of performance and is sitting on it - Hamilton can't do better than match that. It's a fine line JB has found that not everyone can, so it's not that it's easy, but that it's a different discipline, one that only used to apply if you were 'going long' on a strategy, whereas everyone is forced into this pacing now because of the P-Zero's characteristics.


That's not the races I'm watching. JB and LH have both shown agression and battled with other cars. And let's not forget that even in 2010 with the Bridgestones there were already races were Button lapped as fast or even faster than Hamilton. Nowadays Button can do that more often than in 2010, but that can easily attributed to difficulties in finding his feet with new team and car in 2010. On closer look, not that much has changed between the two with the switch from Bridgestone to Pirellis, only Button has become more consistent and is rarely way off Hamiltons pace, like he sometimes was in 2010. But even back then, with supposedly 'raceable' Bridgestones, Hamilton wasn't able to put 3 tenths or so on Button every race lap, like he should have been able to if the tyre theory was correct.

#2494 Morbus

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:55

I agree that Jenson has the edge in tyre management but in quali, he hasn't made much progress with respect to Lewis. He was outqualified by 0.5s in China (after outqualifying Lewis the past 2 years) and could have been outqualified by the same margin in Malaysia had Lewis not missed his braking point at the last corner in Malaysia (costing 2-3 tenths).

Yeah, Jenson could have outqualified Hamilton all last year if he had driven better.

China's times aren't comparable because there was a difference in track temperature. Button did a worse job, sure, but they aren't comparable.

#2495 PretentiousBread

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 13:28

That's not the races I'm watching. JB and LH have both shown agression and battled with other cars. And let's not forget that even in 2010 with the Bridgestones there were already races were Button lapped as fast or even faster than Hamilton. Nowadays Button can do that more often than in 2010, but that can easily attributed to difficulties in finding his feet with new team and car in 2010. On closer look, not that much has changed between the two with the switch from Bridgestone to Pirellis, only Button has become more consistent and is rarely way off Hamiltons pace, like he sometimes was in 2010. But even back then, with supposedly 'raceable' Bridgestones, Hamilton wasn't able to put 3 tenths or so on Button every race lap, like he should have been able to if the tyre theory was correct.



Yes because you still need to overtake obviously, which naturally involves pushing harder, and everyone knows and has been saying how it destroys the tyres, but it's a necessity unless you want stuck in the same position the whole race.

I acknowledge that JB's race pace has always been better relative to his qualifying pace, but not to the extent that he's a 100% match for Hamilton, as he is now lap for lap in the race. Sure, any given race was never 100% qualifying laps, but maybe 80% with the other 20% giving the tyres time to breathe - now it's almost 100% pacing, rarely if ever driving on the limit (though there are exceptions when the conditions are cool and the tyres have held up well and in these instances Hamilton has generally fared better than Button, like at Germany, Korea and Abu Dhabi last year which I mentioned before).


#2496 GlenP

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 13:34

Yes because you still need to overtake obviously, which naturally involves pushing harder, and everyone knows and has been saying how it destroys the tyres, but it's a necessity unless you want stuck in the same position the whole race.

I acknowledge that JB's race pace has always been better relative to his qualifying pace, but not to the extent that he's a 100% match for Hamilton, as he is now lap for lap in the race. Sure, any given race was never 100% qualifying laps, but maybe 80% with the other 20% giving the tyres time to breathe - now it's almost 100% pacing, rarely if ever driving on the limit (though there are exceptions when the conditions are cool and the tyres have held up well and in these instances Hamilton has generally fared better than Button, like at Germany, Korea and Abu Dhabi last year which I mentioned before).

He was already a match for Hamilton, which is why they are more or less tied on points after two seasons and three races.

#2497 TallyHo

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 13:43

I agree that Jenson has the edge in tyre management but in quali, he hasn't made much progress with respect to Lewis. He was outqualified by 0.5s in China (after outqualifying Lewis the past 2 years) and could have been outqualified by the same margin in Malaysia had Lewis not missed his braking point at the last corner in Malaysia (costing 2-3 tenths).

Lets not forget in the same qualifying session in Q3 on his last flying lap Jenson had a massive lock up into turn 1.

#2498 bauss

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 14:14

I'm not sure it can all be so easily put down to tires and EBD. I actually believe Jenson not feeling entirely comfortable in his 2010 car had a larger effect than what is the consensus here.

Many thought the loss of EBD would put Jenson back but if you look at Melbourne and Sepang qualy, and the races in Melbourne and China, we can definitely say this isn't the case. He's more leveled with Lewis than ever.

Agree on the bold part, it's definitely going to be in the little details. I think both drivers can be consistent enough for the championship. Lewis seems to have a slight edge in qualy, Jenson in tyre management.

It simply depends on the conditions who will prevail. At this point it really can go either way and it's quite exciting.


I dont think anyone said the loss of EBD would hurt Jenson in the races. I actually said it would help him especially with these Pirellis, no EBD means rears have to work more...preserving rears and tires in general is king nowadays, so if your natural style is to look after tires, you will be fine compared to those naturally inclined to want to do more.

Where it will hurt you is in qualifying, where sharp turn-ins and sliding the rears a bit under low speed can give you time (redundant stuff with the EBD). I believe a perfect example of this is Vettel, you can see he is hurting from the lack of "stable rear end at all times" he enjoyed in the past years in qualifying, but you can see that come race day, his pace is still there.

I won't read too much in Mel. or Sepang qualy times...those are supposed to be tracks JB is very strong at historically, yet LH's banker laps were sufficient to do the job.

Lets not forget he outqualified Lewis on those tracks in 2010 (*changing conditions in Malaysia).

Anyone expecting the qualy diff. btw the two this year to be smaller than ever will probably be disappointed.

Edited by bauss, 19 April 2012 - 14:15.


#2499 zack1994

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 14:22

What PretentiousBread and some otheres are doing is looking at 2010 and thinking why didnt lewis beat jenson like that in 2011 and 2012 oh it must be these pirellis completely forgetting what changed for button between the 2010 season to the 2011 season.
Sits in the car properly at the right height he feels more comfortable and even more happier with where he's sitting in 2012.
His engineers understand now how to get the best out him which helps balance/setup.
In 2010 they had no data of him on any of the circuits in 2011 they did.
All those things meant he could be at his best in 2011/2012 in 2010 he wasn't.
And just to say being faster with 2 laps of fuel doesn't mean you can be with 56 laps of fuel.


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#2500 velgajski1

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 14:23

On a good day Jenson was as fast or faster as Hamilton even in 2010. Problem in 2010. with Jenson was inconsistency (just like he was a bit inonsistent even in 2009.)

However, as time progresses Jenson's pace is more consistent and completely comparable to Hamilton's now (which is quite a feat). If Hamilton wants to beat Jenson, he needs to do this through combination of strong qualifying (something Hamilton is no doubt very good at) and strong consistency - something we are yet to see over a full season. We saw that he is capable of it in 2007., and in 2010., now its just a matter of taking that step and making 'possibility' -> 'reality' :)

Edited by velgajski1, 19 April 2012 - 14:34.