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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#2601 bauss

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:38

Gap of 0,191 seconds between Lewis on new tyres and Jenson on used tyres. Obviously not a large performance difference between new and used tyres. Also not a large performance difference between Lewis and Jenson.

Theoretically there could've been 8 cars between those 0,191 seconds, apologies to the Lewis fans that are disappointed by the fact that only Webber managed to do so.


both were new tires

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#2602 ZooL

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:38

Interesting view on qualifying. I've never gone into qualifying being disappointed because possible drivers go out early that might've harmed my favorite drivers' teammate while not knowing what pace the respective teams truly have. Is this the only way now how Lewis can beat Jenson in the race?

What are you talking about? The only way Jenson has beat Lewis this year is by team changing his launch control settings at last minute, safety car, and a gearbox penalty.

This might be Lewis's first normal race.

#2603 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:39

Honestly I felt the same as Robefc, take it as a complement! :) Didn't you yourself lay out that the goal for Lewis is to try and stay ahead for the first half of the race. The more cars between Lewis and Jenson the more chance he has of fufilling that. Unless Rosberg jumps Button, then Button pretty much has Webber dusted at the start putting him in a good position for the race.

I guess in some form it can be seen as a compliment. And yes, I surely get the logic that if Jenson is held up in the first stint while Lewis can run away, he becomes uncatchable, and that that is then due to Jenson's start position.

Qualifying is only a part of it though. The real 'startposition' for the race still includes the start and first sector IMO.

I'm looking forward to it. Even though the McLaren's are on the dirty side, they should have good starts.

#2604 revlec

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:39

I'm genuinely not ultra confident in the race. Obviously I'm trolling and winding up a few Button fans and lets be honest, a few of them deserve it ;) But on a serious note, with these tyres and their is no secret about them, it is 50/50 between Hamilton and Button tomorrow. TBH I'm gutted their is no Schumacher, Alonso and Raikkonen in the mix.


They will come alive latter in the race if they start with the harder compound.

#2605 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:40

Can you suggest a different way for Lewis to beat Jenson? It's not his fault if he has been faster until now.

I wasn't talking about qualifying in front of him, I was referring to robefc's post on getting multiple cars between them on the starting grid.

#2606 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:41

So Button is on tyres with 2 hot-laps on them, Hamilton only one, is that right? Means JB might get first dibs on the pit-stop, but that might not be such a bad thing for Hamilton so long as he's ahead of him. I wonder how McLaren will play this one.

Actually, right now I've no idea who's on what tyres because Ted might be wrong and there's no one else with confirmation.

#2607 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:43

both were new tires

explain

#2608 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:43

What are you talking about? The only way Jenson has beat Lewis this year is by team changing his launch control settings at last minute, safety car, and a gearbox penalty.

This might be Lewis's first normal race.

It won't be if Jenson beats him.

#2609 Lazy

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:43

What are you talking about? The only way Jenson has beat Lewis this year is by team changing his launch control settings at last minute, safety car, and a gearbox penalty.

This might be Lewis's first normal race.


:D

..for 2 years :D

#2610 robefc

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:45

Interesting view on qualifying. I've never gone into qualifying being disappointed because possible drivers go out early that might've harmed my favorite drivers' teammate while not knowing what pace the respective teams truly have. Is this the only way now how Lewis can beat Jenson in the race?


I think there's been several discussions, including posts from me, that lewis's quali advantage could prove decisive and clearly it's more of an advantage if there's cars between them rather than them starting alongside each other.

I'm not sure why anyone who participates in a forum like this, which is basically 99% speculation based on the scraps of information we have, would think it 'interesting' that I've considered who might be up there in qualifying prior to the event and how that might benefit my favourite driver.

I presume you never think about how Jenson's race might go prior to a GP then given that we can only now what will happen once the GP is under way?

#2611 peroa

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:45

explain

What's there to explain?
Why would they save soft tyres for the race, the main race tyre will be the prime.
And who the hell even came up with the idea that the first run was on a used set.
The only one on a slightly used set in Q3 was Vettel.

#2612 revlec

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:45

I wasn't talking about qualifying in front of him, I was referring to robefc's post on getting multiple cars between them on the starting grid.


To be honest, i see nothing wrong with that. This is exactly the same thing ALO is doing with MAS. or what VET did to WEB last year.

Fact is, McLaren will not let them go wheel to wheel(no matter what they say) for all the race, so to prevent this you have to make sure to start ahead, possibily with few cars between you and your team mate, because you share the SAME pit box and can not pit at the SAME time.

F1 should be a one car team sport. well it's just me.

#2613 ZooL

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:46

I wasn't talking about qualifying in front of him, I was referring to robefc's post on getting multiple cars between them on the starting grid.

I think Button is fortunate yes that both Schumacher and Raikkonen got unduly knocked out.

I think Button is also fortunate that Hamilton is not starting on pole with Vettel pulling out an amazing lap. In addition Button is also lucky Rosberg didn't do a good lap.

Button is trying too hard in qualifying and make a mistake.

Button very fortunate it wasn't Q2 positions, ie Lewis P1 and Button P4.

#2614 paipa

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:46

I wasn't talking about qualifying in front of him, I was referring to robefc's post on getting multiple cars between them on the starting grid.

Why act hypocritical about it? I have no idea who you cheer for but I'm pretty sure that you too are happy when others are taking off points from your favorite's direct competitors. That's the way racing is.

#2615 ZooL

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:48

It won't be if Jenson beats him.

That's fine as long as Lewis is unaffected by something outside of his control, which was the point if you didn't geddit.

#2616 revlec

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:52

I was one the few Lewis's fans who were wishing for a non competitive(i meant not the fastest) McLaren car this year, because i wanted Lewis to heal, to have back his confidence and deliver latter.

I know that with a sub par car, BUT can not live with him in qualifying and could miss some Q2/Q3 sessions.
But if the car has pace in reserve, and good balance, BUT can match him and even beat him.



#2617 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:54

I think there's been several discussions, including posts from me, that lewis's quali advantage could prove decisive and clearly it's more of an advantage if there's cars between them rather than them starting alongside each other.

I'm not sure why anyone who participates in a forum like this, which is basically 99% speculation based on the scraps of information we have, would think it 'interesting' that I've considered who might be up there in qualifying prior to the event and how that might benefit my favourite driver.

I presume you never think about how Jenson's race might go prior to a GP then given that we can only now what will happen once the GP is under way?

'how Jenson's race might go' is a bit of a wide interpretation isn't it? That's not what you do. You genuinely wish Jenson will fail to qualify close to Lewis. And no, I don't wish Lewis to fail and I most certainly don't wish him to be in some bad luck situation as you apparently want Jenson to be in with multiple cars between them even though the gap is less than 2 tenths.

According to you I'd better leave this forum then. Right.

#2618 TallyHo

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:55

That's fine as long as Lewis is unaffected by something outside of his control, which was the point if you didn't geddit.

I'm sure you'll find some sort of excuse, try one that hasn't been used yet though ;)

#2619 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:55

What's there to explain?
Why would they save soft tyres for the race, the main race tyre will be the prime.
And who the hell even came up with the idea that the first run was on a used set.
The only one on a slightly used set in Q3 was Vettel.

With 'explain' I meant, verify where he got that from. You say Vettel was the only one with a slightly used set. What's your reference? If nobody writes that down, you don't know the difference between a good source and what someone might just think.

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#2620 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:57

To be honest, i see nothing wrong with that. This is exactly the same thing ALO is doing with MAS. or what VET did to WEB last year.

Fact is, McLaren will not let them go wheel to wheel(no matter what they say) for all the race, so to prevent this you have to make sure to start ahead, possibily with few cars between you and your team mate, because you share the SAME pit box and can not pit at the SAME time.

F1 should be a one car team sport. well it's just me.

Now you're just getting all sorts of things into it like them fighting wheel to wheel and pitting in the same lap (since when is that required?)

Ofcourse they can start close to each other, they've done it many times and it hardly ever went wrong. I don't understand what you're getting at.

#2621 ZooL

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:57

I was one the few Lewis's fans who were wishing for a non competitive(i meant not the fastest) McLaren car this year, because i wanted Lewis to heal, to have back his confidence and deliver latter.

I know that with a sub par car, BUT can not live with him in qualifying and could miss some Q2/Q3 sessions.
But if the car has pace in reserve, and good balance, BUT can match him and even beat him.

I'd rather McLaren have a dominant car, because I think Lewis can still beat Button as he has the raw pace which you cann't 'learn' and he is his own worst enemy.

But I agree the less dominant McLaren car is, the worse it is for Button because ultimately he is slower in raw pace.

#2622 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:58

I think Button is fortunate yes that both Schumacher and Raikkonen got unduly knocked out.

I think Button is also fortunate that Hamilton is not starting on pole with Vettel pulling out an amazing lap. In addition Button is also lucky Rosberg didn't do a good lap.

Button is trying too hard in qualifying and make a mistake.

Button very fortunate it wasn't Q2 positions, ie Lewis P1 and Button P4.

Perhaps Lewis should try eating more fortune cookies then. Can't say anything else on this.

#2623 PARAZAR

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:58

With 'explain' I meant, verify where he got that from. You say Vettel was the only one with a slightly used set. What's your reference? If nobody writes that down, you don't know the difference between a good source and what someone might just think.


Our commentator also said that Button was on used tyres for his first Q3 run when they showed Jenson coming out, he could also be wrong though.


#2624 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:59

Why act hypocritical about it? I have no idea who you cheer for but I'm pretty sure that you too are happy when others are taking off points from your favorite's direct competitors. That's the way racing is.

Why assume I act hypocritical? What a terrible post, you've no idea.

#2625 revlec

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:59

'how Jenson's race might go' is a bit of a wide interpretation isn't it? That's not what you do. You genuinely wish Jenson will fail to qualify close to Lewis. And no, I don't wish Lewis to fail and I most certainly don't wish him to be in some bad luck situation as you apparently want Jenson to be in with multiple cars between them even though the gap is less than 2 tenths.

According to you I'd better leave this forum then. Right.


are you a Ju-Jitsu master? take your opponent to the ground
are you a Kung fu expert? make sure to not wear gloves against your opponent.
are you a Aikido fighter? let him blink first.

It's really not difficult to understand the logic here.

#2626 Watkins74

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:00

Perhaps Lewis should try eating more fortune cookies then. Can't say anything else on this.

Clever  ;) :D

#2627 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:00

Our commentator also said that Button was on used tyres for his first Q3 run when they showed Jenson coming out, he could also be wrong though.

Obviously everybody is wrong as long as it suits Lewis' performance. Still no clarification to be found however.

#2628 PARAZAR

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:01

I think Button is fortunate yes that both Schumacher and Raikkonen got unduly knocked out.

I think Button is also fortunate that Hamilton is not starting on pole with Vettel pulling out an amazing lap. In addition Button is also lucky Rosberg didn't do a good lap.

Button is trying too hard in qualifying and make a mistake.

Button very fortunate it wasn't Q2 positions, ie Lewis P1 and Button P4.


And Lewis never made a mistake during qualifying or tried too hard?

#2629 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:02

That's fine as long as Lewis is unaffected by something outside of his control, which was the point if you didn't geddit.

I don't think you got my point. Trust me, it won't be fine.

#2630 ZooL

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:03

I'm sure you'll find some sort of excuse, try one that hasn't been used yet though ;)

Well there will be no excuse if Button overtakes Hamilton. Even if Button does it because he looks after his tyres better than Hamilton. That will be a well earned win.

Edited by ZooL, 21 April 2012 - 13:04.


#2631 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:03

are you a Ju-Jitsu master? take your opponent to the ground
are you a Kung fu expert? make sure to not wear gloves against your opponent.
are you a Aikido fighter? let him blink first.

It's really not difficult to understand the logic here.

Difficult to understand the relevance though.

#2632 TallyHo

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:04

Well there will be no excuse if Button overtakes Hamilton. Even if Button does it because he looks after his tyres better than Hamilton.

:rotfl: You got that in early.

#2633 robefc

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:06

'how Jenson's race might go' is a bit of a wide interpretation isn't it? That's not what you do. You genuinely wish Jenson will fail to qualify close to Lewis. And no, I don't wish Lewis to fail and I most certainly don't wish him to be in some bad luck situation as you apparently want Jenson to be in with multiple cars between them even though the gap is less than 2 tenths.

According to you I'd better leave this forum then. Right.


I don't wish Jenson to have bad luck at all, I'm quite happy for other cars to out qualify him on merit ;)

As for whether I want there to be mutiple cars in between them, I definitely did at the start of the season when it appeared say the mercs had good quali pace but wouldn't be a threat in the race/WDC, right now it's pretty difficult to understand where the main threats are coming from but JB is obviously always up there as he's a class driver and has the same car. I do have worries about lewis's comparative race pace to jenson right now given how tricky these tyres are to manage so I'm not that confident about lewis staying ahead if they're close on grid/track...weirdly as a Lewis fan I do want him to finish ahead though so I'm happy if there are circumstances that make that more likely.

Back at the start of 2010 I'd have wanted jenson right behind lewis, taking points off his 'main' competitors, like most lewis fans I've since woken up to the fact that jenson is quite a threat himself.

You last line is a tad melodramatic noh? Not sure why you're having issues with my posts recently.



#2634 revlec

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:07

I don't understand why Button's fans are so nervous this season.
Last year they were far more relaxed and wanted to teach us wisdom and fair play.

Your guy is 2nd in the WDC table, be happy.

#2635 ZooL

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:12

I'm a McLaren fan, and I like both British drivers. But as a McLaren fan it's days like today why McLaren should support Hamilton, last race Button P5, this race P4, it's not good enough and he always relies on those ahead to trip up, and now Vettel is back in the mix...ooohhhh greeeat :/ Vettel (and other greats) rarely trip up, Button can't beat him over a season from always starting behind in quali. But at least Hamilton has a chance to leapfrog Vettel in quali.

Edited by ZooL, 21 April 2012 - 13:14.


#2636 PARAZAR

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:13

I don't understand why Button's fans are so nervous this season.
Last year they were far more relaxed and wanted to teach us wisdom and fair play.

Your guy is 2nd in the WDC table, be happy.


I'm not nervous. I've followed Button since he first came into F1. The past 4 years he's been in a good position to be able to fight for the championship. He's now in a great team with a great team mate, 2 points behind him in a season that's shaping up to be very exciting and competitive. So it's all good where I'm concerned.

#2637 PARAZAR

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:18

I'm a McLaren fan, and I like both British drivers. But as a McLaren fan it's days like today why McLaren should support Hamilton, last race Button P5, this race P4, it's not good enough and he always relies on those ahead to trip up, and now Vettel is back in the mix...ooohhhh greeeat :/


You're a McLaren fan? Following your posts it seems like you're more of a Hamilton fan than a McLaren fan. Yes winning the first race, second was bad for him through his own fault and 3rd he came in second. Bad results. Following your logic McLaren should have supported Button as Hamilton's 2011 season was less than stellar and mistake ridden.

#2638 TallyHo

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:20

I'm a McLaren fan, and I like both British drivers. But as a McLaren fan it's days like today why McLaren should support Hamilton, last race Button P5, this race P4, it's not good enough and he always relies on those ahead to trip up, and now Vettel is back in the mix...ooohhhh greeeat :/ Vettel (and other greats) rarely trip up, Button can't beat him over a season from always starting behind in quali. But at least Hamilton has a chance to leapfrog Vettel in quali.

Points aren't earned on a saturday though are they.....fact is since Jenson joined McLaren he's scored more points and had more podiums than Lewis. My money is on Button this year.

#2639 revlec

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:20

You're a McLaren fan? Following your posts it seems like you're more of a Hamilton fan than a McLaren fan. Yes winning the first race, second was bad for him through his own fault and 3rd he came in second. Bad results. Following your logic McLaren should have supported Button as Hamilton's 2011 season was less than stellar and mistake ridden.


I think you missed his point..

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#2640 choyothe

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:21

With 'explain' I meant, verify where he got that from. You say Vettel was the only one with a slightly used set. What's your reference? If nobody writes that down, you don't know the difference between a good source and what someone might just think.


I'm pretty sure Vettel was on slightly used for the first run bc he had went out again on the end of Q2 but missed the flag, so that's out-lap and in-lap on those. I don't know why Jenson would have had slightly used on his first run though, didn't they both do just 1 lap in Q2?

#2641 PARAZAR

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:25

I think you missed his point..


How so? It's not the first time he's said that. What I don't understand is what it is based on. Qualifying? Points are earned on Sunday not Saturday. But I'd much prefer that he explains it as I don't want to discuss about him without him being present.

#2642 River

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:27

So Button is on tyres with 2 hot-laps on them, Hamilton only one, is that right? Means JB might get first dibs on the pit-stop, but that might not be such a bad thing for Hamilton so long as he's ahead of him. I wonder how McLaren will play this one.


No that is incorrect, they both used new sets of softs for both runs.

#2643 MinT

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:42

No that is incorrect, they both used new sets of softs for both runs.


Actually they both used new sets for the last run - both first runs were on used tyres. However JB has one less lap on his as he waved off his last run and went straight in.

#2644 bauss

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:45

Actually they both used new sets for the last run - both first runs were on used tyres. However JB has one less lap on his as he waved off his last run and went straight in.


no..they used new sets for both laps

Ted Kravitz (who is the source of all this confusion), got it wrong, its not the first time he got it wrong.

There is no way they would have set those times on tires that have done one proper qualifying lap in q2. No way for those softs, not in this conditions.



#2645 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:47

I don't wish Jenson to have bad luck at all, I'm quite happy for other cars to out qualify him on merit ;)

As for whether I want there to be mutiple cars in between them, I definitely did at the start of the season when it appeared say the mercs had good quali pace but wouldn't be a threat in the race/WDC, right now it's pretty difficult to understand where the main threats are coming from but JB is obviously always up there as he's a class driver and has the same car. I do have worries about lewis's comparative race pace to jenson right now given how tricky these tyres are to manage so I'm not that confident about lewis staying ahead if they're close on grid/track...weirdly as a Lewis fan I do want him to finish ahead though so I'm happy if there are circumstances that make that more likely.

Back at the start of 2010 I'd have wanted jenson right behind lewis, taking points off his 'main' competitors, like most lewis fans I've since woken up to the fact that jenson is quite a threat himself.

You last line is a tad melodramatic noh? Not sure why you're having issues with my posts recently.

:confused:

Don't understand what you mean.

Either way, besides Webber nobody behind Lewis outqualfied Jenson on merit. There's less than 2 tenths between them, what do you expect? Of course I understand how it can harm Jenson if more drivers manage to get inbetween them. Apparently I don't enjoy reading how people wish that to happen even though his performance was solid. But I see, it's all a compliment towards Jenson's race performance and the worry Lewis fans have when Jenson is anywhere near him. I get it now.

#2646 bauss

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:48

explain


wtf is there to explain... no one needs to tell you as a matter of fact.

If you've been paying attention you would know that softs that have already done a hot lap on this track would never go so much faster on another hot lap.

#2647 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:49

I don't understand why Button's fans are so nervous this season.
Last year they were far more relaxed and wanted to teach us wisdom and fair play.

Your guy is 2nd in the WDC table, be happy.

Yeah lets bunch them all up and while we're at it assume they don't mind him losing to his teammate.

#2648 Lights

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:49

softs that have already done a hot lap on this track would never go so much faster on another hot lap.

Thanks for the explanation.

#2649 Obi Offiah

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:52

Calm down people, calm down :)

#2650 Kvothe

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 13:53

Calm down people, calm down :)


:up: Lets not fight this is exactly what Lewis and Jenson want, the b*****ds!

Edited by Kvothe, 21 April 2012 - 13:54.