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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#2751 fieraku

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:27

Bit of an exaggeration, unless you're adding in lost time in traffic because of it (which I have no idea how much it counted for today). Yeah, pretty clear victory for Hamilton on the scorecard this weekend, not that it's any consolation to anyone. I'm already seeing Vettel winning his third consecutive title - luckily for him, he doesn't drive for that team called McLaren.

Bingo.And I was being generous with the 10secs,it could be much more.

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#2752 peroa

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:27

WUT!?

Well, look where Webbo finished, 20 sec min.

#2753 sofarapartguy

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:29

It's complicated.

Lewis has lost about 8 seconds on the first stop and about 3 seconds on second, when JB has lost 3 on the second planned stop. I just started to admire your change of view in JB vs LH scorecard, and suddenly you are making some incredible excuses for LH again.

After 3 round of stops.
51 4 L Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 3 23.696 82.659
53 3 J Button McLaren-Mercedes 3 22.616 67.902

Edited by sofarapartguy, 22 April 2012 - 18:38.


#2754 fieraku

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:41

Lewis has lost about 8 seconds on the first stop and about 3 seconds on second, when JB has lost 3 on the second planned stop. I just started to admire your change of view in JB vs LH scorecard, and suddenly you are making some incredible excuses for LH again.

After 3 round of stops.
51 4 L Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 3 23.696 82.659
53 3 J Button McLaren-Mercedes 3 22.616 67.902

That's 15 seconds,add another 10-20 lost in traffic and you're almost there,and I'm making excuses? :stoned:

#2755 PARAZAR

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:45

That's 15 seconds,add another 10-20 lost in traffic and you're almost there,and I'm making excuses? :stoned:


That's 11 seconds actually and Button also had traffic. But there's no point for me to count seconds because it was a very bad race for both of them. Lewis wins this one.


#2756 Dalin80

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:49

4:0 qual

lewis 2:1 jenson (1 draw)

#2757 mich

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:53

And can you answer something for me, if Lewis is such a hard user of the tyres why is it that Button is always being brought in first??


Not always!
In the case of China, Lewis was brought in first even if Jenson was in better position.

#2758 ImDDAA

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:53

That's 11 seconds actually and Button also had traffic. But there's no point for me to count seconds because it was a very bad race for both of them. Lewis wins this one.


So Button had traffic - that must have slowed him down, right?

In which case, the more traffic you have the slower you will be, yeah?

Who had the most traffic?

Lewis lost more than 11 seconds in his pit stops, you need to go back and look at the data again - but the big deal wasn't the time but the places he lost. Button had a poor stop in China, thankfully it lost him no places on track.

#2759 race addicted

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:54

It's 14.7 seconds.

....compared with Button. Compared with the rest of the grid it was, as I said from the beginning, 16-17 seconds.

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#2760 fieraku

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:56

That's 11 seconds actually and Button also had traffic. But there's no point for me to count seconds because it was a very bad race for both of them. Lewis wins this one.

Yep,and McLaren still have their perfect record this year of screwing either or both drivers in all 4 races so far.

MW looked like a dear in headlights giving Sky interview,and what has SM brought other than bad fortune?
No wonder they have one measly title in 13 years.

#2761 PARAZAR

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:00

So Button had traffic - that must have slowed him down, right?

In which case, the more traffic you have the slower you will be, yeah?

Who had the most traffic?

Lewis lost more than 11 seconds in his pit stops, you need to go back and look at the data again - but the big deal wasn't the time but the places he lost. Button had a poor stop in China, thankfully it lost him no places on track.


Actually I just read James Allen's report. Lewis lost 16 seconds in the stops. 16 seconds! Button lost 3 at his last pit stop. The team really needs to regroup and make sure this never happens again. RB got 37 points vs McLaren's 3. :|

#2762 Rurouni

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:02

How, when he lost that amount almost in one pitstop? And also it is accumulative effect, slow pitstop not only do you lose time but also track position against slower drivers that adds even more time penalty on to it.

At the 2nd stint, Ham was directly behind But, but he can't be within the DRS zone.. not even once. Whether it was because Ham (or But) was pacing his car, I don't really know. but Ham never really threaten But. Only in the 3rd stint that Ham was genuinely faster than But (probably more accurate to say that But was just slow at that stint). And like I said before, a few laps before the 3rd stop, both Ferrari in front of Ham were faster (But was also faster than Ham at that stage, but still slower than Ferrari). Basically at the 3rd stint, Ferrari and Ham were faster than But... all of them (+Rosberg) were catching But... that was going on until a couple of laps before the 3rd stop, which Ham was starting to fade. What surprising me is Rosberg. Basically he jumped Button by doing one of the fastest, if not the fastest outlap of the race (at 1:54.9).

Definitely the car/tyre setup on McLaren for Bahrain race was far from the best. If they push, they'll end up eating their tyre faster and even then they weren't really faster compared to the car around them. If they try to preserve their tyre, they need to run visibly slower than the car around them.

I feel that there are more important thing than this scorecard for now. McLaren needs to sort their strategy, pit stop, and definitely need to hit that tyre sweet spot. This score card felt hollow after seeing those kind of performance from the car and the team. And I really don't like the current tyres with their small sweet spot.

edit: those that argue that Ham was held back by the traffic... I already explain it in this post. The point is that yes, there are traffic (But - Ros - Alo - Mas - Ham). But those behind Button were faster than him... yes, all of them were closing the gap to Button. While Ham was probably faster than the car in front, he wasn't really that much faster. And while Ros - Alo - Mas were always closing in, Ham can't really keep up the pace and ended up a bit slower than Button.

Edited by Rurouni, 22 April 2012 - 19:11.


#2763 Anomnader

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:04

Not always!
In the case of China, Lewis was brought in first even if Jenson was in better position.


Not answered, why if Lewis is a hard user of the tyre 3/4 he is left out longest?

#2764 paipa

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:45

That's 11 seconds actually and Button also had traffic. But there's no point for me to count seconds because it was a very bad race for both of them. Lewis wins this one.

Button had very little traffic, lot less than Lewis. Here's their laptime graphs: http://i.imgur.com/jqtWD.png

Dot size is proportional to gap ahead, maxing out at 2 seconds, meaning large dots represent at least 2s free track ahead. Button had it for almost the whole race, Hamilton not so.

#2765 mich

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:47

Not answered, why if Lewis is a hard user of the tyre 3/4 he is left out longest?


Except rainy China, it was 2/3.(Maybe he was a leader so that strategy was conservative.)
If it was 9/10, obviously there are something between them, but it is very difficult to conclude he is usually left out longer than Jenson from 2/3 or 3/4.
And because it was not usually last year, we have to pay attention for more few race.

#2766 Raifosa

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:29

http://www.dailymoti...highlights_auto
Lewis: rears are dropping fast
crickets chirping
JB: inaudible
JB's RE: Box this lap


#2767 f1fastestlap

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:32

http://www.dailymoti...highlights_auto
Lewis: rears are dropping fast
crickets chirping
JB: inaudible
JB's RE: Box this lap


Yeah, I also noticed this...

Button: "I'm struggling with the rear tyres."

Pit » BUT: "Box this lap."

Edited by f1fastestlap, 22 April 2012 - 20:35.


#2768 skyform

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:14

It's so funny to watch all of you people fighting and arguing who has a better pace, Button or Hamilton when the drivers are driving only at 60-70% They are just racing to a delta time, you guys can argue as much as you want, but with this tyres you will never know who is the faster driver.

F1 is now a complete joke, this is not racing anymore, it's nursing tyres!

Edited by skyform, 22 April 2012 - 21:16.


#2769 Darth Sidious

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:16

It's so funny to watch all of you people fighting and arguing who has a better pace, Button or Hamilton when the drivers are driving only at 60-70% They are just racing to a delta time, you guys can argue as much as you want, but with this tyres you will never know who is the faster driver. F1 became a complet joke, this is not racing anymore, it's nursing tyres!


I watch qualifying for that.

:p

#2770 Kvothe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:19

It's so funny to watch all of you people fighting and arguing who has a better pace, Button or Hamilton when the drivers are driving only at 60-70% They are just racing to a delta time, you guys can argue as much as you want, but with this tyres you will never know who is the faster driver.

F1 is now a complete joke, this is not racing anymore, it's nursing tyres!


So what you're saying is..... Lewis is faster?
.
.
.
.
:p

#2771 Lights

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:47

Obviously I feel terrible about the race result, even more so because I'm afraid that I don't see how McLaren can soon be back on Melbourne level performance, while at the same time it seems Red Bull made Vettel like the car again.

Lewis outperformed Jenson today, but what I'm most worried about is how Jenson could have such bad handling. How can McLaren go from a car that felt great in testing, great at responding to changes in setup, got only positive words from the drivers, be so shit now. It's like I'm having a déjà vu from Silverstone 2009. It wasn't just a pace issue today, he was losing tenths a lap due to balance issues; rear brake locking and oversteer. Next to that, the degradation is basically the worst of all teams and the tyres seem to have a very small working zone. These balance issues for Jenson were already visible on Friday but I thought they fixed it before qualifying. Apparently it was way worse than I thought. Without the trouble in the end today a 5th place was up for grabs. Without Lewis' problems that would've been 6th. Apparently that would make McLaren the 3rd fastest team of the field today, yet at a lot of moments throughout the race it didn't even look like that at all.

For the second time this season I have to go into a 3 week break following a 0 score. Jenson is having an absolutely terrible year consistency wise. Even Webber is ahead of him who just cruised to four 4th places. This better change as soon as we get to Europe.

Edited by Lights, 22 April 2012 - 21:49.


#2772 fieraku

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 22:16

It's so funny to watch all of you people fighting and arguing who has a better pace, Button or Hamilton when the drivers are driving only at 60-70% They are just racing to a delta time, you guys can argue as much as you want, but with this tyres you will never know who is the faster driver.

F1 is now a complete joke, this is not racing anymore, it's nursing tyres!


This is funny now because in the 2011 thread everytime I mentioned this it was that "I was making excuses" for LH.

Race pace is never an accurate representation of driver SPEED.With today's tires,engine/gear box allocations (plus your above reasons) drivers drive in tuned-down mode when having a lead,are in no position to challenge or trying to just collect points.

An F1 driver's true speed shows in Quali only,no whats,ifs and buts.

Racecraft in the past meant you had to overtake for wins and thus for WDC's,it meant that a FAST driver Schu/Kimi/JPM/Ham/Alo could just drive a whole stint balls out to make up time to a slower driver in front without worrying about tires,where as now you can wait for others coming to you. That ain't racecraft that's just waiting around,but Pirelli PR are selling it as "excitement" and people buy it.Managing tires has NEVER been this extent no matter how many times you repeat it because tires have NEVER been this sh**. We've had the odd races in the past where tires played a part,but they were always produced to be nothing short of the best.


I was crazy then :stoned:

#2773 TallyHo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:28

This is funny now because in the 2011 thread everytime I mentioned this it was that "I was making excuses" for LH.




I was crazy then :stoned:

These Tyres definitely aren't the same as the 2011 ones.

#2774 ForzaGTR

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:23

I really hope Mclaren up their game. It's a shame for Lewis has he appears to have got his head sorted and is putting in consistent performances. His team has let him down every race so far. Button has suffered too. How can such a well funded and experienced team make so many sloppy mistakes?

#2775 Clatter

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:28

I really hope Mclaren up their game. It's a shame for Lewis has he appears to have got his head sorted and is putting in consistent performances. His team has let him down every race so far. Button has suffered too. How can such a well funded and experienced team make so many sloppy mistakes?


That is a damn good question. The odd one can be forgiven, but Mac are getting something wrong every race.


#2776 ForzaGTR

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:01

That is a damn good question. The odd one can be forgiven, but Mac are getting something wrong every race.


Exactly, they made a lot of big strategy errors last year too. I don't expect perfection but I'm sure with the resources and experience Mclaren have that they should be doing better. Something is not quite right with the team's set up at races. They often seem a lap or two behind the quick thinking Red Bull. Perhaps because I'm a fan I'm over analysing things but I can't help but think there is huge room for improvement. Last years failures were largely masked by Lewis driving like a tool but this year they are more apparent due to both drivers being consistent.

Edited by Olly F1, 23 April 2012 - 18:02.


#2777 Gareth

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:17

3-1 on my personal scorecard, which looks at race weekends only (rather than splitting between qualy and race). Imo, oz was a clear win for jenson, Malaysia for Lewis.

Bahrain was a win for Lewis too imo. At the time of jenson's puncture, Lewis was closer to him than the time lost from botched stops and resulting extra traffic.

China is a more difficult one to call, but had Lewis started from second I think he would have beaten jenson (and nico, had he stuck with a 2 stop) even without jenson's pit stop issue.

Seems like Lewis may be getting on top of whatever caused his 2011 slump in form, with much more consistent driving and a better attitude to set backs. Hopefully that continues.

#2778 Lazy

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:41

3-1 on my personal scorecard, which looks at race weekends only (rather than splitting between qualy and race). Imo, oz was a clear win for jenson, Malaysia for Lewis.

Bahrain was a win for Lewis too imo. At the time of jenson's puncture, Lewis was closer to him than the time lost from botched stops and resulting extra traffic.

China is a more difficult one to call, but had Lewis started from second I think he would have beaten jenson (and nico, had he stuck with a 2 stop) even without jenson's pit stop issue.

Seems like Lewis may be getting on top of whatever caused his 2011 slump in form, with much more consistent driving and a better attitude to set backs. Hopefully that continues.


Nonsense, Jenson was clearly superior in the race in China. And if you are going to include mechanical problems, Jenson would have beaten Lewis in Bahrain too without punctures etc.

Lewis' fans are getting a bit desperate

#2779 Boxerevo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:44

Nonsense, Jenson was clearly superior in the race in China. And if you are going to include mechanical problems, Jenson would have beaten Lewis in Bahrain too without punctures etc.

Lewis' fans are getting a bit desperate

Tell me how Button again got ahead of Hamilton ?

But i concede China to Button,he started ahead and stayed,lets be 2 -2 and Hamilton ahead anyway on scorecard.

You Button fans are getting the best of the team,do not matter if he pit first or later,he pits on the best window.

Poor Job for Button by the team ?,Worse for Hamilton mate.

Edited by Boxerevo, 23 April 2012 - 18:48.


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#2780 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:45

Yes but Jenson didn't perform up to the same standard as Lewis in Bahrain did he? You don't need a race finish to tell you that.

#2781 Lokt

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 18:46

Nonsense, Jenson was clearly superior in the race in China. And if you are going to include mechanical problems, Jenson would have beaten Lewis in Bahrain too without punctures etc.

Lewis' fans are getting a bit desperate


Some maybe, but I can agree with Gareth reasoning. But maybe I´m one of those fans because I can´t see how Jenson was clearly superior in China. But hey, I do consider that Hamilton was hindered by his gearbox penalty in the race outcome.

#2782 mlsnoopy

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 19:11

Nonsense, Jenson was clearly superior in the race in China. And if you are going to include mechanical problems, Jenson would have beaten Lewis in Bahrain too without punctures etc.

Lewis' fans are getting a bit desperate


What about the gearbox penalty, yes lets ingore all the taem mistakes, like last year right.

#2783 pit5bul

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 19:33

It's so funny to watch all of you people fighting and arguing who has a better pace, Button or Hamilton when the drivers are driving only at 60-70% They are just racing to a delta time, you guys can argue as much as you want, but with this tyres you will never know who is the faster driver.

F1 is now a complete joke, this is not racing anymore, it's nursing tyres!


THIS :clap:

#2784 robefc

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 19:52

Nonsense, Jenson was clearly superior in the race in China. And if you are going to include mechanical problems, Jenson would have beaten Lewis in Bahrain too without punctures etc.

Lewis' fans are getting a bit desperate


True but not because of out driving Lewis, wouldn't you agree?

There's nothing desperate in Gareth's post, although for my money china's impossible to call so I make it 2-1 to Lewis.

#2785 Gareth

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:23

Nonsense, Jenson was clearly superior in the race in China. And if you are going to include mechanical problems, Jenson would have beaten Lewis in Bahrain too without punctures etc.

Lewis' fans are getting a bit desperate

Desperate? I made it pretty clear in my post I thought China was the hardest one to call; the most marginal. I can understand rob's opinion, for example, that it's impossible to tell and should be ignored.

I try and exclude mechanical/team related issues, as that's the best way IMO to try and judge the drivers' relative performance for the purpose of my scorecard: ie if they both received perfect service from their team over the weekend, who would have finished ahead on Sunday? That's an entirely subjective, personal, decision - just like my preference to "score" a weekend (ie who "deserved" (ignoring team stuff) to finish ahead Sunday) rather than separate race and qualy. Everyone has a different way of doing this, none are wrong, just different ways of viewing it. And that one's mine.

So for Bahrain, just prior to Jenson's puncture about 5 laps from the end, Jenson was 5s ahead of Lewis whilst Lewis had lost 14.7s to Jenson in their 3 pit stops (plus more, unquantifiable, time in traffic he wouldn't otherwise have encountered). I'm pretty confident that even if Jenson had run trouble free to the end, he wouldn't have stretched that 5s gap to the 15s+ gap he would have needed to make it a Jenson win in my book. Hence, a Lewis win for the weekend.

For China, if you take away Lewis' broken gearbox he starts 2nd. To me, his and Jenson's performance on Sunday and their pace looked pretty similar. I didn't see a pace advantage on race day for Jenson that would have allowed him to make it from 6th on the grid to ahead of Lewis from 2nd on the grid. Hence calling it for Hamilton. This one is on way more shaky ground than Bahrain, I completely accept. Hence saying it was the closest one to call, and understanding why some would call the weekend a draw for the 2 drivers.

#2786 trogggy

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:27

True but not because of out driving Lewis, wouldn't you agree?

There's nothing desperate in Gareth's post, although for my money china's impossible to call so I make it 2-1 to Lewis.

I agree with 2-1. I thought Button looked better in the race (China) but you can't ignore the penalty. Hamilton passing Rosberg is a bit of a reach given his pace wasn't any faster than JB's when they were both in clear air (2nd stint).
Although I think there's scope for a couple of pages of 'Lewis broke his gearbox by [insert daft reason] so it's his own fault' just to balance the thread a bit. :D
JB's losing out in tyre management and consistency as far as I can see though - who'd've thunk that?

#2787 TallyHo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:38

True but not because of out driving Lewis, wouldn't you agree?

There's nothing desperate in Gareth's post, although for my money china's impossible to call so I make it 2-1 to Lewis.

Why do people insist on scoring races on ifs and buts? The Fact is Jenson has finished infront of Lewis twice and likewise with Lewis. 2-2

#2788 Gareth

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:40

Why do people insist on scoring races on ifs and buts?

Because otherwise this thread would be one post, containing a link to the WDC points table. :D

No one's denying the facts of the actual race finishes, some people enjoy talking ifs and buts is all.

#2789 robefc

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:40

Why do people insist on scoring races on ifs and buts? The Fact is Jenson has finished infront of Lewis twice and likewise with Lewis. 2-2


Because it's the whole point of the thread?

#2790 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:43

Why do people insist on scoring races on ifs and buts? The Fact is Jenson has finished infront of Lewis twice and likewise with Lewis. 2-2

Because that's a lazy way to judge the situation IMO. I can think of myriad circumstances in which a driver can finish behind another but still have outperformed him. So can you if you've ever decried an easy win or an undeserving one or recognised a lucky one.

You can judge your scorecard whichever way you like of course so please don't think I'm telling you you're wrong, but in my view even if Jenson hadn't dropped out and had finished in front, Lewis would still have put in the better performance in Bahrain.

#2791 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:44

That said, Gareth is wrong.

#2792 TallyHo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:48

Because it's the whole point of the thread?

Ah ok then. If Jenson hadn't of taken his front wing off in Malaysia he'd have beaten Hamilton, after all he was infront. He'd have also beaten Hamilton in Bahrain if not for his mechanical issues. 4-0 to Button IMHO.

#2793 Gareth

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:50

I think it's preferable to be consistent in your ifs and buts, Tally Ho - ignoring issues for one driver but not for the other doesn't strike me as producing a particularly useful scorecard. Neither does ignoring driver errors. But if that's your preference, be my guest.

#2794 Gareth

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:51

That said, Gareth is wrong.

Buttoneer 1 - 0 Gareth :lol:

#2795 GlenP

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:52

To be honest, neither have really set the world alight in the races for the most part. Hamilton has been brilliant in quali, Jenson was v good in Melbourne race, Jenson made an uncharacteristic blunder in Malaysia, erm... fair bit of bad luck for both, with a bit more for Ham... Lewis is a bit ahead at this stage, but neither has looked as good as they should.

#2796 TallyHo

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:53

By the way what happened to Button losing 5th place? He was ahead of Rosberg by a good few seconds, the next time i looked he was in 6th and 7 seconds behind him. The race was so chaotic nobody even noticed.

#2797 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:54

Ah ok then. If Jenson hadn't of taken his front wing off in Malaysia he'd have beaten Hamilton, after all he was infront. He'd have also beaten Hamilton in Bahrain if not for his mechanical issues. 4-0 to Button IMHO.


But that was his fault, Hamilton's rubbish pit-stops in Bahrain weren't his fault. Not hard to differentiate between these two hypotheticals :rolleyes:

#2798 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:57

Buttoneer 1 - 0 Gareth :lol:

Nah 1-1. I can't disagree with your methodology but I also can't possibly give China to Lewis.

That said, Lewis is definitely in a very different place this year and if it continues he ought to be way ahead of Button by the end of the season. The team travails will all even out over 20 races but Lewis just seems much more zen than he was last year. That makes him dangerous.

#2799 BinaryDad

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 20:59

Lewis' fans are getting a bit desperate


I think you're projecting your own issues on to others.

China was marginal in terms of differing performance between Lewis and Jenson, with Lewis performing brilliantly in slightly heavier traffic. I won't even go into the gearbox thing...it broke, he had a penalty, them's the breaks.

So far, I think Lewis has been doing an outstanding job in the face of adversity. Button has done slightly less well, seemingly falling victim to being unable to to drive a car that's not performing withing a narrow set of parameters and a silly, silly error that any driver would make.






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Posted 23 April 2012 - 21:00

By the way what happened to Button losing 5th place? He was ahead of Rosberg by a good few seconds, the next time i looked he was in 6th and 7 seconds behind him. The race was so chaotic nobody even noticed.

Lol I definitely noticed. Try live timing. :)

He was ahead of Rosberg by a good few seconds. Then those few seconds started to become less seconds. Then when the gap was only like 1 second, Rosberg pitted, did an incredible outlap, then Button pitted the next lap yet when he exited the pits Rosberg wasn't even in view anymore, that's how much he had won that lap.

The last stint Button was cunning though. Very slow the first few laps and that got me worried, but he was actually saving his tyres and as the stint progressed he was becoming the fastest driver out of the Rosberg-Massa group. 5th was up for grasp again in the end, but I agree that it was a bit chaotic.