Jump to content


Photo

2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4041 replies to this topic

#2851 PARAZAR

PARAZAR
  • Member

  • 1,155 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:16

Lewis will now be attending the testing but JB won't


Is this confirmed? Why wouldn't Jenson attend if Lewis is?

Advertisement

#2852 hammibal

hammibal
  • Member

  • 1,857 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:18

Is this confirmed? Why wouldn't Jenson attend if Lewis is?

Lewis asked, Jenson didnt

#2853 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:30

Lewis will now be attending the testing but JB won't


Where'd you hear? Nothing on twitter

#2854 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:32

Is this confirmed? Why wouldn't Jenson attend if Lewis is?


When the possibility of Lewis attending first came to light I think Adam cooper or someone quoted jense saying he definitely wasn't going and he had a demo run somewhere or other instead.

#2855 PARAZAR

PARAZAR
  • Member

  • 1,155 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:40

When the possibility of Lewis attending first came to light I think Adam cooper or someone quoted jense saying he definitely wasn't going and he had a demo run somewhere or other instead.


Ok, well I think they should be there considering the circumstances. If Jenson can't attend, hopefully Lewis will get enough info for the both of them, if they allow him to attend that is.

#2856 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 22:04

When the possibility of Lewis attending first came to light I think Adam cooper or someone quoted jense saying he definitely wasn't going and he had a demo run somewhere or other instead.


He has a demo run in Hungary on the Tuesday.
I don't think Jenson will be at all upset if Lewis does some of the test running. So much of it is going to be just data gathering.

#2857 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,623 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 23:58

China is a more difficult one to call, but had Lewis started from second I think he would have beaten jenson (and nico, had he stuck with a 2 stop) even without jenson's pit stop issue.

Desperate? I made it pretty clear in my post I thought China was the hardest one to call; the most marginal. I can understand rob's opinion, for example, that it's impossible to tell and should be ignored.

I try and exclude mechanical/team related issues, as that's the best way IMO to try and judge the drivers' relative performance for the purpose of my scorecard: ie if they both received perfect service from their team over the weekend, who would have finished ahead on Sunday? That's an entirely subjective, personal, decision - just like my preference to "score" a weekend (ie who "deserved" (ignoring team stuff) to finish ahead Sunday) rather than separate race and qualy. Everyone has a different way of doing this, none are wrong, just different ways of viewing it. And that one's mine.

For China, if you take away Lewis' broken gearbox he starts 2nd. To me, his and Jenson's performance on Sunday and their pace looked pretty similar. I didn't see a pace advantage on race day for Jenson that would have allowed him to make it from 6th on the grid to ahead of Lewis from 2nd on the grid. Hence calling it for Hamilton. This one is on way more shaky ground than Bahrain, I completely accept. Hence saying it was the closest one to call, and understanding why some would call the weekend a draw for the 2 drivers.

I think his qually performance got somewhat underrated. Qualifying that car 2nd was very impressive. Whilst after qually, Whitmarsh (in the bbc interview I saw, and even more so in these comments) focused on the fact that track conditions had deteriorated from the start of Q3 to the end (making life harder for those that did their run at the end), I thought that rather missed the point. Hamilton was able to gain the benefit of the better track conditions in Q3 as a result of his performances in Q1 and Q2 which allowed him to save a set of softs. It wasn't luck that allowed Hamilton to make use of the best track conditions available in the session, it was his performance. He then qualified 3 places, and half a second, ahead of Jenson - pretty impressive, in my book.

If you have Hamilton starting the race in 2nd or 3rd (Schumacher certainly would have done an extra lap, but would have been hampered on that lap by the worsening conditions Whitmarsh mentioned), I think it becomes very difficult to see how Jenson would have finished ahead of him even without the pit stop blunder. For each of the first two stints, they pretty much tracked each other on identical pace - even had Hamilton only qualified third and got into T1 in third, I can't see any justification for saying that Jenson would have gotten ahead of him in either of those stints based on the lap times. The picture then gets muddied by the influence of traffic, forced timing on stops (to cover off Webber), and the pit stop blunder. But I struggle to see Jenson making it past Hamilton either in the pits or (as his pitting a lap or two latter strategy would have required) on the circuit, in particular as being the driver behind and pitting a lap or two later he would be the driver experiencing more of the traffic.

Still, all very hypothetical so I'll concede the draw. But I won't concede any charges of desperation!

Anyway, I completely agree that there's a very high probability that Lewis would have finished above jenson if he'd started second. However, in reality I think jenson's performance on Sunday was better than Lewis's. Hence the two basically cancel each other out.

I'd be interested in Lights' comments, as he felt it was a clear win to jenson, I'm surprised he didn't respond to your initial post!

Alright, well be aware that you asked for it. :)

Why I rate Button above Hamilton in the Chinese GP weekend.

First of all, I want to echo Gareth's comment:"(It's) an entirely subjective, personal, decision .... Everyone has a different way of doing this, none are wrong, just different ways of viewing it." I feel like there are two ways of looking at this problem. One viewpoint is, how would Lewis have performed starting from P2. Another is, how did Lewis perform while taking his penalty into account. Whichever way you choose, there's speculation, although obviously more in the first than in the latter.

Gareth mentions his preference to score the entire weekend instead of splitting up the weekend into qualifying and the race. I agree on that. I don't entirely agree with his explanation on Button's qualifying issue, saying it wasn't luck for Lewis to have the better track conditions. I think there was definitely an element of luck involved, regardless of whether Lewis performed better up until that point. In 9 out of 10 weekends, having only 1 set of fresh tyres left is not a problem at all, certain teams like Mercedes do it quite often. I can just as well claim it was luck for Lewis that precisely in a weekend where Jenson needed an extra certainty run in Q2, Q3 turned out to be affected by weather conditions the way it did. But I find this going a bit too far, and it's not really the root of this discussion either. Jenson started where he started.

Back to the performance judgement. Like I said, two perspectives are applicable here. How would Lewis have performed starting from P2. Speculation begins, but to keep it somewhat manageable I assume an exact copy of all other drivers and events, including a good start from Jenson. Rosberg had an epic start, Schumacher less so, Lewis would be second. We'd have Rosberg-Hamilton-Schumacher-Button. In the actual race, we saw a Schumacher-Button-Raikkonen-Hamilton train, with at the end of the first stint Button not being able to keep up with Schumacher anymore. Had Hamilton started 2nd, he'd be in front of this group. The only thing is, I don't see any evidence of Lewis later in the race that he would have been able to outpace this group. My speculation is that there would have been a train behind him, with perhaps Button finding it difficult to hang on. What would Hamilton's gain be with this compared to his actual 5th position? I estimate around 3-5 seconds. That's at least what he lost in that first stint. This effect of course works through the whole race, keeping on the speculation. The second stint would have been interesting. He'd have clear air and run a couple of seconds in front of Jenson. Jenson would have closed the gap and Lewis would pit. Then he'd land somewhere in traffic, probably right behind the Williams guys and Perez. In the actual race, he struggled with this traffic in this stint. Whether he would beat Jenson depends on this. I can't possibly speculate if they would have swapped positions somewhere in these laps, while I'm confident that Button was performing better in them. But here is where I'm stuck while others assume nothing would have happened. Each his way. I doubt anyone actually went through this all, but some just boldly assumed that as long as Hamilton didn't have his grid penalty he would have a legendary race including lapping Rosberg three times. I have a different view on this, his racepace was there to see on plenty of occasions.

The second perspective evolves around how did Lewis perform while taking his penalty into account. That's easy, just watch and note the numbers. It's all there, just how would you assess the loss through the gearbox penalty? As I said earlier, I estimate this to be around 3 to 5 seconds, but perhaps more importantly, track position against Jenson. These 3-5 seconds in the first stint could perhaps increase in further stints, but as I explained, to fully avoid traffic in the third stint especially was impossible. Anyway, to rate their actual performances I made a short analysis of the race (see below), in particular the second and third stint. In these two stints the crucial difference was made that formed my initial post-race view. Comments in this thread made me doubt this view, but rewatching the race only supported my initial beliefs. As noted earlier in this post, the second stint gave them an opportunity to run in clear air. Reason for this is that McLaren made a fantastic pitstop for Lewis that let him pass Raikkonen in the pits, while Schumacher retired. At the start of the second stint, we had Hamilton and Button were running nose to tail with a gap of 1,8 seconds between them in 2nd and 3rd place. Looking back on this now, it's incredible to think they had to fight so damn hard to fill in the same positions at the finish line.

Posted Image

Anyway, here is where it all really starts. Hamilton did have to overtake Ricciardo and Kovalainen, but both were very easy targets and Hamilton drove by them on the inside of long corners. We then see Hamilton closing in a little on Jenson but then losing that again and more. He had to pit in lap 22 to avoid losing more time on drivers around him. Due to the different strategies throughout the field, after this round of pitstops the stint started in which both drivers had to fight through traffic. This was simply unavoidable with a 3 stopper. On this page you'll see a lot of arguments that; Lewis had tougher traffic; Button had an easier race; their pace was similar. With this analysis I can prove that all these claims are wrong. Another result of this is that claims such as "Lewis struggled to overtake because he was on older/more used rubber" are also not relevant.

Right after Button's pitstop in lap 24/25, the gap was 2,6 seconds. Between them were Di Resta and Massa. During this third stint, Button overtook Maldonado, Senna, Perez and Vettel in 6 laps. Hamilton overtook Massa, Di Resta and Maldonado in 8 laps, and was then stuck behind Perez until lap 35. Note that Senna went offtrack in the hairpin in lap 28, losing 2 positions to Maldonado and Hamilton. Thus Hamilton did not have to overtake him. This happened right after Button overtook Perez, and to quote Ben Edwards: "Again, another straightforward pass for Jenson Button". A few laps later, Lewis could not pass Perez in the 4 laps he was behind him. This cost him 9 seconds to Jenson. After Perez pitted in lap 35, Lewis showed excellent pace (Lap 36,37) on his tyres, a few tenths a lap faster than Jenson, before both drivers pitted for the final time. This would indicate that Lewis did certainly still have pace in his tyres, yet it's obvious he could not flow through the traffic like Jenson did and that this cost him a lot of time. Also, but slightly out of scope for this analysis, the failure of Lewis to overtake Perez also resulted in him falling back into traffic after his final stop, while for Jenson this could have been avoided had his pitstop been normal. I already mentioned before in this thread that had this been the case a difference of around 20 seconds at the finish line between Jenson and Lewis could have been a possibility. It's arguable that this situation would have altered the views many people had on their relative performance, but I'm not sure.

Conclusion: I showed two perspectives. With one I cannot come to a reasonable conclusion due to too many variables and speculation. Others might, that's their choice. The second perspective is more based on facts than anything else. I explained my analysis for it and my conclusion is that I rate Button's performance higher. We're talking about 2 racing drivers, and one of them was able to race his way through a similar amount of traffic faster and more efficiently. So much more efficient that even 6,5 seconds lost in a following pitstop could not bring Hamilton back in front of him. And the main thing here is that I consider this to have had a similar or even higher influence than the grid penalty for Lewis. In the end, Jenson finished a further 5+ seconds in front. I also want to specify that the first perspective would have been much more reasonable to use if the variables of overtaking where unknown. However, many drivers including most importantly Jenson himself proved this was reasonably easy. This supports my decision to take on the second perspective into my verdict.

My scores for the Chinese GP weekend: Button 8 - 7 Hamilton

My scorecard so far this season: Button 7,3 - 7,8 Hamilton

I hoped you enjoyed reading my comments.

#2858 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 00:27

Alright, well be aware that you asked for it. :)


:D

My scores for the Chinese GP weekend: Button 8 - 7 Hamilton

My scorecard so far this season: Button 7,3 - 7,8 Hamilton

I hoped you enjoyed reading my comments.


I did but your scorecard needs some explanation...?

#2859 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 570 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:08

Alright, well be aware that you asked for it. :)

Why I rate Button above Hamilton in the Chinese GP weekend.

First of all, I want to echo Gareth's comment:"(It's) an entirely subjective, personal, decision .... Everyone has a different way of doing this, none are wrong, just different ways of viewing it." I feel like there are two ways of looking at this problem. One viewpoint is, how would Lewis have performed starting from P2. Another is, how did Lewis perform while taking his penalty into account. Whichever way you choose, there's speculation, although obviously more in the first than in the latter.

Gareth mentions his preference to score the entire weekend instead of splitting up the weekend into qualifying and the race. I agree on that. I don't entirely agree with his explanation on Button's qualifying issue, saying it wasn't luck for Lewis to have the better track conditions. I think there was definitely an element of luck involved, regardless of whether Lewis performed better up until that point. In 9 out of 10 weekends, having only 1 set of fresh tyres left is not a problem at all, certain teams like Mercedes do it quite often. I can just as well claim it was luck for Lewis that precisely in a weekend where Jenson needed an extra certainty run in Q2, Q3 turned out to be affected by weather conditions the way it did. But I find this going a bit too far, and it's not really the root of this discussion either. Jenson started where he started.

Back to the performance judgement. Like I said, two perspectives are applicable here. How would Lewis have performed starting from P2. Speculation begins, but to keep it somewhat manageable I assume an exact copy of all other drivers and events, including a good start from Jenson. Rosberg had an epic start, Schumacher less so, Lewis would be second. We'd have Rosberg-Hamilton-Schumacher-Button. In the actual race, we saw a Schumacher-Button-Raikkonen-Hamilton train, with at the end of the first stint Button not being able to keep up with Schumacher anymore. Had Hamilton started 2nd, he'd be in front of this group. The only thing is, I don't see any evidence of Lewis later in the race that he would have been able to outpace this group. My speculation is that there would have been a train behind him, with perhaps Button finding it difficult to hang on. What would Hamilton's gain be with this compared to his actual 5th position? I estimate around 3-5 seconds. That's at least what he lost in that first stint. This effect of course works through the whole race, keeping on the speculation. The second stint would have been interesting. He'd have clear air and run a couple of seconds in front of Jenson. Jenson would have closed the gap and Lewis would pit. Then he'd land somewhere in traffic, probably right behind the Williams guys and Perez. In the actual race, he struggled with this traffic in this stint. Whether he would beat Jenson depends on this. I can't possibly speculate if they would have swapped positions somewhere in these laps, while I'm confident that Button was performing better in them. But here is where I'm stuck while others assume nothing would have happened. Each his way. I doubt anyone actually went through this all, but some just boldly assumed that as long as Hamilton didn't have his grid penalty he would have a legendary race including lapping Rosberg three times. I have a different view on this, his racepace was there to see on plenty of occasions.

The second perspective evolves around how did Lewis perform while taking his penalty into account. That's easy, just watch and note the numbers. It's all there, just how would you assess the loss through the gearbox penalty? As I said earlier, I estimate this to be around 3 to 5 seconds, but perhaps more importantly, track position against Jenson. These 3-5 seconds in the first stint could perhaps increase in further stints, but as I explained, to fully avoid traffic in the third stint especially was impossible. Anyway, to rate their actual performances I made a short analysis of the race (see below), in particular the second and third stint. In these two stints the crucial difference was made that formed my initial post-race view. Comments in this thread made me doubt this view, but rewatching the race only supported my initial beliefs. As noted earlier in this post, the second stint gave them an opportunity to run in clear air. Reason for this is that McLaren made a fantastic pitstop for Lewis that let him pass Raikkonen in the pits, while Schumacher retired. At the start of the second stint, we had Hamilton and Button were running nose to tail with a gap of 1,8 seconds between them in 2nd and 3rd place. Looking back on this now, it's incredible to think they had to fight so damn hard to fill in the same positions at the finish line.

Posted Image

Anyway, here is where it all really starts. Hamilton did have to overtake Ricciardo and Kovalainen, but both were very easy targets and Hamilton drove by them on the inside of long corners. We then see Hamilton closing in a little on Jenson but then losing that again and more. He had to pit in lap 22 to avoid losing more time on drivers around him. Due to the different strategies throughout the field, after this round of pitstops the stint started in which both drivers had to fight through traffic. This was simply unavoidable with a 3 stopper. On this page you'll see a lot of arguments that; Lewis had tougher traffic; Button had an easier race; their pace was similar. With this analysis I can prove that all these claims are wrong. Another result of this is that claims such as "Lewis struggled to overtake because he was on older/more used rubber" are also not relevant.

Right after Button's pitstop in lap 24/25, the gap was 2,6 seconds. Between them were Di Resta and Massa. During this third stint, Button overtook Maldonado, Senna, Perez and Vettel in 6 laps. Hamilton overtook Massa, Di Resta and Maldonado in 8 laps, and was then stuck behind Perez until lap 35. Note that Senna went offtrack in the hairpin in lap 28, losing 2 positions to Maldonado and Hamilton. Thus Hamilton did not have to overtake him. This happened right after Button overtook Perez, and to quote Ben Edwards: "Again, another straightforward pass for Jenson Button". A few laps later, Lewis could not pass Perez in the 4 laps he was behind him. This cost him 9 seconds to Jenson. After Perez pitted in lap 35, Lewis showed excellent pace (Lap 36,37) on his tyres, a few tenths a lap faster than Jenson, before both drivers pitted for the final time. This would indicate that Lewis did certainly still have pace in his tyres, yet it's obvious he could not flow through the traffic like Jenson did and that this cost him a lot of time. Also, but slightly out of scope for this analysis, the failure of Lewis to overtake Perez also resulted in him falling back into traffic after his final stop, while for Jenson this could have been avoided had his pitstop been normal. I already mentioned before in this thread that had this been the case a difference of around 20 seconds at the finish line between Jenson and Lewis could have been a possibility. It's arguable that this situation would have altered the views many people had on their relative performance, but I'm not sure.

Conclusion: I showed two perspectives. With one I cannot come to a reasonable conclusion due to too many variables and speculation. Others might, that's their choice. The second perspective is more based on facts than anything else. I explained my analysis for it and my conclusion is that I rate Button's performance higher. We're talking about 2 racing drivers, and one of them was able to race his way through a similar amount of traffic faster and more efficiently. So much more efficient that even 6,5 seconds lost in a following pitstop could not bring Hamilton back in front of him. And the main thing here is that I consider this to have had a similar or even higher influence than the grid penalty for Lewis. In the end, Jenson finished a further 5+ seconds in front. I also want to specify that the first perspective would have been much more reasonable to use if the variables of overtaking where unknown. However, many drivers including most importantly Jenson himself proved this was reasonably easy. This supports my decision to take on the second perspective into my verdict.

My scores for the Chinese GP weekend: Button 8 - 7 Hamilton

My scorecard so far this season: Button 7,3 - 7,8 Hamilton

I hoped you enjoyed reading my comments.


You reckon Jenson would have passed Lewis on the track had there be no penalty?

Alternatively, how do you think Jenson would have fared had he - and not Lewis - had the grid penalty??

I'd love to see a gearbox change for Jenson at one of the upcoming meetings and see how he makes out vis-a-vis Lewis. That would be fun to watch. Wouldn't it?

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 25 April 2012 - 03:10.


Advertisement

#2860 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,623 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:45

:D

I did but your scorecard needs some explanation...?

AUS MAS CHN BHR
JB 9 5 8 7
LH 8 8 7 8

If you can count to 10, you'll get it. ;)

#2861 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,623 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:56

You reckon Jenson would have passed Lewis on the track had there be no penalty?

Alternatively, how do you think Jenson would have fared had he - and not Lewis - had the grid penalty??

I'd love to see a gearbox change for Jenson at one of the upcoming meetings and see how he makes out vis-a-vis Lewis. That would be fun to watch. Wouldn't it?

Did you just seriously quote my whole post?

Anyway, whether I reckon these things, it's difficult. As I explained in that post, there's a lot of speculation while looking at it like this. I do know that Button's performance was that much greater in the race for me to consider these sores I gave.

How Jenson had fared had he had the grid penalty? I think he would have done better in the traffic, and if Lewis lost 6,5 seconds at his pitstop Button would probably overtake him.

Don't understand why you wish a gearbox penalty for Button. You seem a bit annoyed.

#2862 PARAZAR

PARAZAR
  • Member

  • 1,155 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:06

Did you just seriously quote my whole post?

Anyway, whether I reckon these things, it's difficult. As I explained in that post, there's a lot of speculation while looking at it like this. I do know that Button's performance was that much greater in the race for me to consider these sores I gave.

How Jenson had fared had he had the grid penalty? I think he would have done better in the traffic, and if Lewis lost 6,5 seconds at his pitstop Button would probably overtake him.

Don't understand why you wish a gearbox penalty for Button. You seem a bit annoyed.


Well obviously a puncture, exhaust and differential failure wasn't enough.

#2863 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,475 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:51

I hoped you enjoyed reading my comments.


Wow :)

#2864 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:42

AUS MAS CHN BHR
JB 9 5 8 7
LH 8 8 7 8

If you can count to 10, you'll get it.;)


Well if you'd used decimal points rather than commas I'd have realised it was an average and not got confused with thinking you were perhaps giving one score for quali and one for the race! :p

(I did think 3 was a bit harsh on jb!)

Edited by robefc, 25 April 2012 - 10:44.


#2865 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:49

Did you just seriously quote my whole post?

Anyway, whether I reckon these things, it's difficult. As I explained in that post, there's a lot of speculation while looking at it like this. I do know that Button's performance was that much greater in the race for me to consider these sores I gave.

How Jenson had fared had he had the grid penalty? I think he would have done better in the traffic, and if Lewis lost 6,5 seconds at his pitstop Button would probably overtake him.

Don't understand why you wish a gearbox penalty for Button. You seem a bit annoyed.


Makes sense, relative to me I probably don't feel jb's performance was better than Lewis's in the race by the same amount as you (although I do think it was better) and I'm crediting the penalty with more of an effect which would be why I think the two balance out whereas your seesaw comes down on the side of JB. Gareth presumably a bit further the other way on both counts so his seesaw comes down on Lewis's side (although maybe your post will have had some effect...!)

#2866 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,023 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:39

Alright, well be aware that you asked for it. :)

I hoped you enjoyed reading my comments.

I'm glad rob asked and very glad you answered. Really enjoyed reading that, thanks for taking the time to pop it all down.

A couple of points where I think we perhaps differ:

1. I think putting the qualy down to "luck" on the basis that there are not many times per season when conditions will change so much in a 10 minute period is harsh. The fact is that is going to happen, that saving your tyres in earlier sessions will give you an advantage in doing this and that qualifying with less laps/sets of tyres used in Q1 and Q2 has been a fairly (IMO, without looking at the data) consistant advantage for Hamilton over Button (I remember a few races last year where Hamilton had an extra run in Q3 or started the race with an extra set of fresh tyres). To me it's more than just luck for Hamilton, it's him making good use of his better performance in Q1 and Q2.

2. In the first stint my impression was that Hamilton was getting held up by Raikkonen who was getting held up by Button who may have been getting held up by Schumacher. Given that, I think it's more than possible that had Hamilton started and gotten away in 2nd, he'd have opened up more of a gap than you put him down for in that first stint. Which in turn reduces the traffic he potentially has to navigate later in the race, and gives more flexibility on the timing of his stops.

3. I agree Button navigated the traffic better, but significantly better enough to say he would have passed Hamilton on track?

Overall, did Jenson drive better on Sunday? I absolutely think so. Was he that much better that he could have overcome a 3 place, 0.5s, disadvantage in qualifying (that I think was fairly earned, notwithstanding Whitmarsh's comments)? When I entered this thread, my feeling was "no" with a sufficient degree of certainty to say "I'll score that one for Lewis". As I mentioned before, though, from what you and others have said that feeling of certainty has definitely decreased enough for me to say "draw".

#2867 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,023 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:46

AUS MAS CHN BHR
JB 9 5 8 7
LH 8 8 7 8

If you can count to 10, you'll get it.;)

AUS - agree
MAS - 5 seems generous to me: crash was his fault, and put him out of the points, then there were the tyre problems (which I am sure would have been laid at LH's door if things were the other way round). Go with a 4.
CHN - I'd go with 8 for each
BHR - I'd say the difference in performance was enough for a 2 point gap (it was certainly a bigger gulf in performance than we saw in AUS IMO), although not sure whether to increase LH 1 or decrease JB 1. Probably decrease JB 1.

So I'd end up with 6.75 vs 8 if I was using a "score out of 10 for the weekend" approach.

#2868 TallyHo

TallyHo
  • Member

  • 271 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:04

AUS MAS CHN BHR
JB 9 5 8 7
LH 8 8 7 8

If you can count to 10, you'll get it.;)

Looks about right, but i would have given JB a 10 for Aus because he was just untouchable.

#2869 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 14:47

Did you just seriously quote my whole post?

Anyway, whether I reckon these things, it's difficult. As I explained in that post, there's a lot of speculation while looking at it like this. I do know that Button's performance was that much greater in the race for me to consider these sores I gave.

How Jenson had fared had he had the grid penalty? I think he would have done better in the traffic, and if Lewis lost 6,5 seconds at his pitstop Button would probably overtake him.

Don't understand why you wish a gearbox penalty for Button. You seem a bit annoyed.


Ham has been overtaken only twice the whole season with both times in Bahrain with 1st by RG lap7 and 2nd being the NR>LH>NR lap 10 pit-cockup so he's basically has lost just one position on track in 4 races.

I just don't see it.

#2870 moorsey

moorsey
  • Member

  • 642 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 15:06

Ham has been overtaken only twice the whole season with both times in Bahrain with 1st by RG lap7 and 2nd being the NR>LH>NR lap 10 pit-cockup so he's basically has lost just one position on track in 4 races.

I just don't see it.


spot on :up:

Edited by moorsey, 25 April 2012 - 15:07.


#2871 Markn93

Markn93
  • Member

  • 4,088 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 15:35

Ham has been overtaken only twice the whole season with both times in Bahrain with 1st by RG lap7 and 2nd being the NR>LH>NR lap 10 pit-cockup so he's basically has lost just one position on track in 4 races.

I just don't see it.


Interesting, I've only really thought of Lewis as a great overtaker and never really considered him as a similarly good defender of his position because it never really crosses my mind that he will lose places through on track combat, (China is an example where I just wasn't even considering Lewis getting re-overtaken once he had gotten past someone coming through the traffic) which goes to show in fact what a great/perhaps slightly underrated defender he is too, ( http://www.youtube.c...feature=related ).

#2872 Wifey

Wifey
  • Member

  • 134 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 15:50

Interesting, I've only really thought of Lewis as a great overtaker and never really considered him as a similarly good defender of his position because it never really crosses my mind that he will lose places through on track combat, (China is an example where I just wasn't even considering Lewis getting re-overtaken once he had gotten past someone coming through the traffic) which goes to show in fact what a great/perhaps slightly underrated defender he is too, ( http://www.youtube.c...feature=related ).


you just need to look at Korea last year to see what a good defender he is lol

#2873 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 25 April 2012 - 15:54

If a driver is out of position from the start, he is unlikely to get overtaken. I don't doubt that Hamilton is a decent enough defender of position, but this example shows nothing. I also think his prowess at defending (well, at all wheel-to-wheel stuff) owes as much to the fact that he clearly isn't afraid to have contact as anything else. Other characters might choose to be more pragmatic and get their position back through the race playing-out, protecting their tyres at the same time.

#2874 Markn93

Markn93
  • Member

  • 4,088 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 16:00

If a driver is out of position from the start, he is unlikely to get overtaken. I don't doubt that Hamilton is a decent enough defender of position, but this example shows nothing. I also think his prowess at defending (well, at all wheel-to-wheel stuff) owes as much to the fact that he clearly isn't afraid to have contact as anything else. Other characters might choose to be more pragmatic and get their position back through the race playing-out, protecting their tyres at the same time.


I did consider him being out of position in China, but as Wifey posted though, Korea was a good example. I agree with what you say about not being afraid of contact, I wouldn't be surprised if Ayrton's famous words mean a lot to him and are something he has taken to heart.

Edited by Markn93, 25 April 2012 - 16:01.


#2875 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 16:10

Interesting, I've only really thought of Lewis as a great overtaker and never really considered him as a similarly good defender of his position because it never really crosses my mind that he will lose places through on track combat, (China is an example where I just wasn't even considering Lewis getting re-overtaken once he had gotten past someone coming through the traffic) which goes to show in fact what a great/perhaps slightly underrated defender he is too, ( http://www.youtube.c...feature=related ).


My perception of Lewis's defending ability has reduced since he started. 2007/08 I thought he was a brilliant defender, he was so composed in his second race against massa and just brilliant in the US race against alonso. For him to hold off the double WDC in his 7th race (I think) was stellar. However, over the years since I've seen him overtaken too easily a few times and no longer feel he's particularly special in that regard. Korea is the only time I can think of him holding off a faster car for a significant length of time and, like vettel holding him off in spain 2010, there were specific reasons why that was possible.

#2876 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,023 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 25 April 2012 - 16:16

Korea is the only time I can think of him holding off a faster car for a significant length of time

Canada 2010?

#2877 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 25 April 2012 - 16:25

I did consider him being out of position in China, but as Wifey posted though, Korea was a good example. I agree with what you say about not being afraid of contact, I wouldn't be surprised if Ayrton's famous words mean a lot to him and are something he has taken to heart.

Yep - a better example.

Senna is a pretty extreme example to follow - not for nothing did people more or less jump out of his way! The current field have wised-up I feel - they aren't going to be so easily intimidated.

#2878 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,623 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 16:27

Ham has been overtaken only twice the whole season with both times in Bahrain with 1st by RG lap7 and 2nd being the NR>LH>NR lap 10 pit-cockup so he's basically has lost just one position on track in 4 races.

I just don't see it.

Read my sentence once more.

#2879 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 16:39

Canada 2010?


Yep, good call, far more robust than button against the other red bull

Advertisement

#2880 gricey1981

gricey1981
  • Member

  • 1,180 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 25 April 2012 - 17:21

Canada 2010?


He held up Vettel for a long time Silverstone last year wasnt it.

to be fair though Perez held him up for what seemed like eons at China

#2881 Dalin80

Dalin80
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 17:48

to be fair though Perez held him up for what seemed like eons at China


That was only a few laps, unfortunately perez was 2.5s off pace costing hamilton massively.

#2882 ZooL

ZooL
  • Member

  • 2,063 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:14

Alonso is testing 2 days of Mugello, and since he's only a few points behind Hamilton in WDC it's gonna be a stupid decision if Whitmarsh doesn't allow Hamilton the same in a season of limited testing.

It's akin to giving your opponents an advantage.

#2883 WitnessX

WitnessX
  • Member

  • 1,250 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:16

Yep, good call, far more robust than button against the other red bull

Really?

Depends on ones definition of "robust". Jensons soft tyres were already fecked up from qualifying and Webber could do 2 sec. faster laps, Lewis (to his credit) initially could do roughly the same lap times as Vettel.

Lets put this into perspective:
- Button lasted 5 laps with Webber directly on his rear end right from the start.
- Once Vettel caught Lewis (lap 6) he lasted 2 laps with Vettel on his rear end before pitting.



#2884 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:23

Really?

Depends on ones definition of "robust". Jensons soft tyres were already fecked up from qualifying and Webber could do 2 sec. faster laps, Lewis (to his credit) initially could do roughly the same lap times as Vettel.

Lets put this into perspective:
- Button lasted 5 laps with Webber directly on his rear end right from the start.
- Once Vettel caught Lewis (lap 6) he lasted 2 laps with Vettel on his rear end before pitting.


I may have been confusing did a much better job (i.e including pace) with defence to be fair and I might be being harsh on JB if his tyres were fecked, although were they more fecked than Lewis's if he did 2 flying laps?

Ignoring JB, Lewis defended well against vettel there and silverstone last year as someone mentioned...or maybe vettel can't overtake :D



#2885 ZooL

ZooL
  • Member

  • 2,063 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:25

Oh and I had read a post or two regarding Button's development feedback ability.

History demonstrates this ability is overated.

At Honda he didn't exhibit this talent, far from it.

At Brawn after the first 7 races, he really struggled, "what the hell have we done to this car". Had the championship started after race 7 he would've looked medicore when he was racing down frequently in mid-grid positions. This is where Barrichello outshone him, because Button doesn't seem to exhibit the naturally ability to drive around any problems other than with a perfect car. Reminds me alot of Ralf Schumacher.

Kimi Raikkonen again, McLaren was reputed to do all the setup for him, so it's overated.

Edited by ZooL, 25 April 2012 - 18:26.


#2886 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,505 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:43

Alonso is testing 2 days of Mugello, and since he's only a few points behind Hamilton in WDC it's gonna be a stupid decision if Whitmarsh doesn't allow Hamilton the same in a season of limited testing.

It's akin to giving your opponents an advantage.


Not really if one considers Hamiltons development skills overrated, like apparently most others' are.

Oh and I had read a post or two regarding Button's development feedback ability.

History demonstrates this ability is overated.

At Honda he didn't exhibit this talent, far from it.

At Brawn after the first 7 races, he really struggled, "what the hell have we done to this car". Had the championship started after race 7 he would've looked medicore when he was racing down frequently in mid-grid positions. This is where Barrichello outshone him, because Button doesn't seem to exhibit the naturally ability to drive around any problems other than with a perfect car. Reminds me alot of Ralf Schumacher.

Kimi Raikkonen again, McLaren was reputed to do all the setup for him, so it's overated.



#2887 maverick69

maverick69
  • Member

  • 4,727 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:44

People.

It's about the tyres.........

#2888 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,505 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:52

People.

It's about the tyres.........


Not half as much as "people" would like us believe.

#2889 maverick69

maverick69
  • Member

  • 4,727 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:55

Not half as much as "people" would like us believe.


Well I think it is...... pretty much. Just look at the randomness played out so far.

Edited by maverick69, 25 April 2012 - 18:59.


#2890 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,505 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:03

Well I think it is...... pretty much. Just look at the randomness played out so far.


According to quite a few LH supporters, the 'randomness' is more down to McLaren's sloppy strategies and pit work, cause without that LH would have won 3 races, or somehing like that.

 ;)

#2891 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,623 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:04

Well if you'd used decimal points rather than commas I'd have realised it was an average and not got confused with thinking you were perhaps giving one score for quali and one for the race! :p

(I did think 3 was a bit harsh on jb!)

You're right, I'm used to commas because of excel and never use decimal points, but for this it would have been better. But no, like I mentioned as well I prefer to rate whole weekends with the emphasis on who deserves the most points at the end of it, similar to Gareth.

#2892 maverick69

maverick69
  • Member

  • 4,727 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:11

According to quite a few LH supporters, the 'randomness' is more down to McLaren's sloppy strategies and pit work, cause without that LH would have won 3 races, or somehing like that.

;)


Lol. "Quite a few". Not really. That's the voices in your head again  ;) All I'm seeing is most Hamilton fans happy that he's being consistent.

And even then - (even) you must surely see that that he's been on the wrong end of it all in the past four races through no fault of his own.

Not saying that he would have won any of the races...... but he would have definitely had a healthy lead in the WDC. That is undeniable.... even if you dislike the guy......... Which given the cheese tyres would have come in handy........





#2893 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 8,064 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:31

You're right, I'm used to commas because of excel and never use decimal points, but for this it would have been better. But no, like I mentioned as well I prefer to rate whole weekends with the emphasis on who deserves the most points at the end of it, similar to Gareth.


Me too but binary like Gareth.

Not sure I'd disagree with your china scores...but a 1 point difference on a scale of 1-10 is very different to a binary system (ahem, although I suppose now I've included a draw it's not actuall binary!).

So I'm trying to figure out whether a draw in my system and a 8-7 in your system is reconcilable or whether it might destroy the matrix And the space time continium!

#2894 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,505 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:31

Lol. "Quite a few". Not really. That's the voices in your head again  ;) All I'm seeing is most Hamilton fans happy that he's being consistent.


"Most" vs. "quite a few", where's the contradiction?

And even then - (even) you must surely see that that he's been on the wrong end of it all in the past four races through no fault of his own.

Not saying that he would have won any of the races...... but he would have definitely had a healthy lead in the WDC. That is undeniable.... even if you dislike the guy......... Which given the cheese tyres would have come in handy........


Undeniable is that none of the top guns had an easy ride so far.

#2895 MP422

MP422
  • Member

  • 1,922 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:38

Not half as much as "people" would like us believe.


Of course it has to do with the tires, You must be oblivious.


According to quite a few LH supporters, the 'randomness' is more down to McLaren's sloppy strategies and pit work, cause without that LH would have won 3 races, or somehing like that.

;)



Naa the randomness is in the tires small operating window, if anything Lewis Hamilton hasn't caused himself "randomness"....



#2896 The Ragged Edge

The Ragged Edge
  • Member

  • 4,435 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 25 April 2012 - 19:42

People.

It's about the tyres.........


I was the first to bang on about the tyres not able to be raced on and was metaphorically knifed in the neck by Button/anti-Hamilton fans for stating the obvious. What I do find funny is minus the narrow operating window, the tyres are basically the same as last year, yet the same logical failings of last season regarding the tyres, still manifests itself this season with many Button fans. Maybe it's because I'm an analyst for a living, why I'm able to see things others are adamant is not there. But let me repeat the obvious again. Button only appears on-par with Hamilton, because of the tyres.

#2897 Pamphlet

Pamphlet
  • Member

  • 414 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 25 April 2012 - 20:57

I was the first to bang on about the tyres not able to be raced on and was metaphorically knifed in the neck by Button/anti-Hamilton fans for stating the obvious. What I do find funny is minus the narrow operating window, the tyres are basically the same as last year, yet the same logical failings of last season regarding the tyres, still manifests itself this season with many Button fans. Maybe it's because I'm an analyst for a living, why I'm able to see things others are adamant is not there. But let me repeat the obvious again. Button only appears on-par with Hamilton, because of the tyres.


Even as a Button fan, this is how I've been thinking for a long time as well. 100% agree, although I DO think that the difference between the two has shortened up a bit.

#2898 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,505 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:15

I was the first to bang on about the tyres not able to be raced on and was metaphorically knifed in the neck by Button/anti-Hamilton fans for stating the obvious. What I do find funny is minus the narrow operating window, the tyres are basically the same as last year, yet the same logical failings of last season regarding the tyres, still manifests itself this season with many Button fans. Maybe it's because I'm an analyst for a living, why I'm able to see things others are adamant is not there. But let me repeat the obvious again. Button only appears on-par with Hamilton, because of the tyres.


:lol: I'm scared to ask what you analyze for a living.

Of course the bolded also means Hamilton only ever looked better than Button because of the [different]... guess what! :eek:

#2899 Markn93

Markn93
  • Member

  • 4,088 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:30

:lol: I'm scared to ask what you analyze for a living.

Of course the bolded also means Hamilton only ever looked better than Button because of the [different]... guess what! :eek:


Yes and those would be tyres with which you could push 100% (See Schumi's comments).

Edited by Markn93, 25 April 2012 - 21:31.


Advertisement

#2900 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:46

Interesting, I've only really thought of Lewis as a great overtaker and never really considered him as a similarly good defender of his position because it never really crosses my mind that he will lose places through on track combat, (China is an example where I just wasn't even considering Lewis getting re-overtaken once he had gotten past someone coming through the traffic) which goes to show in fact what a great/perhaps slightly underrated defender he is too, ( http://www.youtube.c...feature=related ).

Lewis has always been one of the best defenders in F1 and not just of his generation but all time,he rarely got overtaken before.Now with DRS and tires he still doesn't but I won't claim anything since overtaking is not what it used to be.

A chart I've saved from before,I came across somewhere.And as you can see Lewis is up there in both categories.

Posted Image