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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#251 slideways

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:41

Brilliant, commanding drive from Jenson today! It seems like he just keeps getting stronger.

Hamilton reinforced how much of a sore loser he is in the press conference. Lying through his teeth about being happy IMO.

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#252 JensonWDC

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:42

my objective opinion: Jenson will always have the measure of Lewis with these Pirelli tyres

#253 Buttoneer

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:42

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#254 robefc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:42

Lead driver getting the call whether to pit is the right thing, but if he opts not to come in on a lap the second driver should get the option to come in on that lap - if they get the undercut the lead driver can't complain as he was given the option to come in.


But, and this is an important but, that would mean that jenson would have to pit earlier than he wanted just to avoid handing the advantage to lewis.

#255 Coral

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:43

I don't think what cora said was too far off the mark certainly the tyres, new regs makes todays racing very different from back in 2007. Lewis is mentally finished and imo today would be the final nail in the coffin. To go from pole to 3rd and have your team mate win would finish him off. We saw the end of LH after Buttons brilliant win in Canada. It shook him to the very core and he stopped being a racer and started apologising to the team for very single thing. I think he is damaged goods. McLaren rightfully are building the team and car around Button who is the number 1 driver.

:up:
Oh absolutely. People think I am knocking Jenson but I'm not. I admit I don't like the guy but it was a fantastic performance from him today. He was fast...like Lewis should be and is no longer. Jenson is McLaren's No. 1 right now and it should be close between him and Vettel for the WDC. But I am a Lewis fan and he has, slowly but surely, become a No. 2 driver. Same as Webber, same as Massa. Lewis now must consider his future carefully. Does he leave McLaren, or even leave F1 altogether? Because if things carry on as at present Lewis is really going to suffer mentally.

#256 anti

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:44

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#257 robefc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:45

lead driver getting call is understandable, but it is something that needs to be revisited and tweaked.

It is a terrible thing if it means destroying the race of the 2nd driver, it almost did in China ....and basically cost them a place this race.

Had they pit Lewis two laps earlier and told him to conserve or both of them one lap earlier, they would have still been fine. But having him drive too many laps with his tires over the cliff just so Jenson can pit optimally is a bit of bullshit.

Jenson conserves his tires better, so whenever they make sure Lewis pits AFTER him in the first stint...his races are almost always ruined.

Lewis can avoid this by outqualifying and getting better starts... but he cant everytime and there will be more days like today. With the field being quite close, they could easily ruin his WDC fight with this rubbish strategy call.

They are basically forcing Lewis to conserve tires like Jenson, which is against everything in his instincts that brought him to F1 and got him a world championship.

It is pure bullsh*t


It's not

There are other ways to do it,you might not agree with how they do it at the moment but how do you solve the conundrum of forcing the lead driver to pit earlier than ideal for them just to avoid handing the advantage to the other driver?

At the moment they clearly don't have another way of doing that and think that's the fairest way to treat the lead driver.

#258 jjcale

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:46

Utterly ridiculous.

You must come from the 'Jenson is rubbish' school of thought. Therefore Jenson beating Lewis means that now Lewis must be rubbish.

....which is nonsense.

Jenson is effing quick. So is Lewis. It'll always be nip and tuck between those two, but Jenson did have the measure of Lewis this weekend.

...it doesn't mean that Lewis has 'lost' anything.


she's not talking about results... she's talking about style... LH's hardcore fans dont care so much where he finishes so long as he does it in a particular style (which unfortunately does not work well on Pirellis) ... eg my favourite race from him is Monza 09... some of us like a combative style. eg PM driving for Williams went up in my estimation today, but others will castigate him for binning it on the last lap.

#259 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:46

But, and this is an important but, that would mean that jenson would have to pit earlier than he wanted just to avoid handing the advantage to lewis.

Why?He was 10 seconds ahead.Is it better to get your drivers a bit closer to e/o or gift your main rival 2nd? I don't get it :confused:

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#260 Force Ten

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:49

But, and this is an important but, that would mean that jenson would have to pit earlier than he wanted just to avoid handing the advantage to lewis.

Lewis could have come in 2 laps after Jenson in the first round but then he would have had to stay out 2 laps longer on the hards and he was already losing time at the end of his second stint on the hards. So it's not that clear a cut anyway. Maybe he would have gained overall, maybe he could have fallen off the cliff on his second set too...

#261 f1fastestlap

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:49

Why?He was 10 seconds ahead.Is it better to get your drivers a bit closer to e/o or gift your main rival 2nd? I don't get it :confused:

It makes no sense, and It's not because lewis having to pit earlier that they have to call jenson earlier too...
It's a matter of maintaining team dominance over the course of the race. They would still get jenson first if they pitted lewis first, but more important they would have maintained 2nd place...

#262 robefc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:49

Why?He was 10 seconds ahead.Is it better to get your drivers a bit closer to e/o or gift your main rival 2nd? I don't get it :confused:


Which stop are you talking about?

The first stop he was around 3 secs behind if memory serves me correctly.

The second stop they brought him in at the lap they wanted to didn't they, no delays there?

#263 f1fastestlap

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:50

Lewis could have come in 2 laps after Jenson in the first round but then he would have had to stay out 2 laps longer on the hards and he was already losing time at the end of his second stint on the hards. So it's not that clear a cut anyway. Maybe he would have gained overall, maybe he could have fallen off the cliff on his second set too...

It would be a different ball game as he would not have to fight with perez, thus preserving the tyres...

#264 f1fastestlap

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:51

Which stop are you talking about?

The first stop he was around 3 secs behind if memory serves me correctly.

The second stop they brought him in at the lap they wanted to didn't they, no delays there?

He's referring to vettel...

#265 Force Ten

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:53

It would be a different ball game as he would not have to fight with perez, thus preserving the tyres...

Hard to say. Preserving tyres has statistically not been his strong suit and he did put the 1 sec a lap faster time in there at one point.

#266 robefc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:53

He's referring to vettel...


Well if he's referring to vettel and lewis is 10 seconds ahead of him and only 3 seconds behind button it's a bit of a no brainer not to give th eadvantage to the driver who's second with a 10 sec gap over the one behind him, surely?

Edited by robefc, 18 March 2012 - 08:54.


#267 jjcale

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:53

:up:
Oh absolutely. People think I am knocking Jenson but I'm not. I admit I don't like the guy but it was a fantastic performance from him today. He was fast...like Lewis should be and is no longer. Jenson is McLaren's No. 1 right now and it should be close between him and Vettel for the WDC. But I am a Lewis fan and he has, slowly but surely, become a No. 2 driver. Same as Webber, same as Massa. Lewis now must consider his future carefully. Does he leave McLaren, or even leave F1 altogether? Because if things carry on as at present Lewis is really going to suffer mentally.


I dont think the mental suffering is anything a good result wont cure.... and if he is so weak, he should not be in F1 - as you suggest.... I dont think he is so weak - but boy did he sound weak today, and at some points last season.

He needs a good kicking (ok maybe not literally) ... toughen him up a bit. His interviews can be pathetic to watch sometimes....

#268 revlec

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:53

:up:
Oh absolutely. People think I am knocking Jenson but I'm not. I admit I don't like the guy but it was a fantastic performance from him today. He was fast...like Lewis should be and is no longer. Jenson is McLaren's No. 1 right now and it should be close between him and Vettel for the WDC. But I am a Lewis fan and he has, slowly but surely, become a No. 2 driver. Same as Webber, same as Massa. Lewis now must consider his future carefully. Does he leave McLaren, or even leave F1 altogether? Because if things carry on as at present Lewis is really going to suffer mentally.


No Lewis is not a No.2 driver, but it seems he is not driving the same like he did years ago.
The new McLaren design philosophy(and rules) just suit Button more.
i mean, are people kidding me? we have seen races were Lewis started not in pole(with Alonso as team mate) and was still a challenge for him in the race.
With these rules, if BUT starts in front of him, to me it means that it will likely finish like that.

In other circumstances, and with proper tyres, Lewis would have thrown the car around at the cost to binning it(Monza 2009) to catch Button. Not possible anymore. Old good days.
This year, only VET, WEB, ALO, or MSC between them during the races will save his ass. I hope to be wrong though.

Edited by revlec, 18 March 2012 - 08:56.


#269 Force Ten

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:54

He's referring to vettel...

They had Vettel well covered. It was a safety car that brought Vettel on front of him, not a McLaren mistake. In hindsight everyone is a genius.

#270 f1fastestlap

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:54

Hard to say. Preserving tyres has statistically not been his strong suit and he did put the 1 sec a lap faster time in there at one point.


Well he wouldn't have worn them has he did trying to pass perez...

#271 PARAZAR

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:55

Great drive and win from Jenson! He was great today! Lewis didn't look like he had the pace today. His pole lap yesterday was fantastic. I can't help but feel bad for him for not getting second but this is F1 and these things happen. I think people are overeacting about him having lost it etc. This is the first race of the season and as we have seen in the past 2 seasons Jenson and Lewis are pretty much evenly matched. There are another 19 races to go so lets wait and see how the season evolves before we jump to conclusions. On a sidenote, feels great to have F1 back! :)

#272 Coral

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:56

she's not talking about results... she's talking about style... LH's hardcore fans dont care so much where he finishes so long as he does it in a particular style (which unfortunately does not work well on Pirellis) ... eg my favourite race from him is Monza 09... some of us like a combative style. eg PM driving for Williams went up in my estimation today, but others will castigate him for binning it on the last lap.


Yes that's just it. It's not so much that Lewis finished third, it's the way he did it...I'm sorry, but Lewis was just slow. What was he doing when Jenson was getting all these fastest laps? He was trundling around dead slow (in fact the way Jenson used to, steadily dropping back). Had Lewis driven that way in 2007, I would never have become his fan. There are no excuses this time, and I don't know where he goes from here. To say I am dejected is an understatement.

#273 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:56

Which stop are you talking about?

The first stop he was around 3 secs behind if memory serves me correctly.

The second stop they brought him in at the lap they wanted to didn't they, no delays there?


Was it? oh yeah :drunk: Lewis had a 10 second lead wiped clean,anyway I don't like it for the simple fact that you don't gift your enemyRBR nothing,and they did.
If Vettel pips em in Brasil by 3 points,remember this post.

#274 Lights

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:57

:up:
Oh absolutely. People think I am knocking Jenson but I'm not. I admit I don't like the guy but it was a fantastic performance from him today. He was fast...like Lewis should be and is no longer. Jenson is McLaren's No. 1 right now and it should be close between him and Vettel for the WDC. But I am a Lewis fan and he has, slowly but surely, become a No. 2 driver. Same as Webber, same as Massa. Lewis now must consider his future carefully. Does he leave McLaren, or even leave F1 altogether? Because if things carry on as at present Lewis is really going to suffer mentally.

A more reasonable post.. but still, you're simply overreacting on Lewis. He's not a No. 2 driver, he basically had the same speed as Button this weekend but lost out at the start and the safety car. That's it, next weekend it can be turned around.

#275 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:59

It would be a different ball game as he would not have to fight with perez, thus preserving the tyres...

Yes,exactly. JB was untouchable anyway,but they could have tried harder to get Ham 2nd,and he knows it thus the putty face.

#276 stairpotato

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:04

Well, that's that. Congrats Jenson. It seems that Lewis has finally lost the tremendous speed and flair that made me his fan in 2007. I don't know what has happened to him, but he's no longer the driver of old. So you win Jenson fans. :cry:


Thinking on this post more, it just saddens me.

In the 1980s and 1990s I was a massive supporter of Ayrton Senna. I never recall even once thinking that Senna had lost it when he was beaten by a teammate. Not once.

To write off someone you support so easily says more about you than it does about the driver you claim to support.


#277 Boxerevo

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:06

Coral and others... lmao.

The thing is,Hamilton isn't on another level,he is there on the fighting with Button,Alonso,Vettel to be the best.

Today he was defeated,lets live for another battle and see the result.

I think we are too hard on him,like he is "the best" and can't lose.

He isn't the best people,he is one of the best for sure,and the challenge is big.



#278 btrader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:07

As a mclaren fan this is one of the things that annoys me the most.
The notion they have to stick to the by-the-book-plan as cost them in the past and will cost them in the future...
They just can't seem to adapt to the situation...


I have seen Button come in many times before Lewis even though he should did not have the first call. Button just has a bigger say in the team just like Alonso and Vettel. Lewis is IMO is number 2 much like Massa and Webber.

#279 revlec

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:09

Thinking on this post more, it just saddens me.

In the 1980s and 1990s I was a massive supporter of Ayrton Senna. I never recall even once thinking that Senna had lost it when he was beaten by a teammate. Not once.

To write off someone you support so easily says more about you than it does about the driver you claim to support.


No he is not writing him off. Just like him, i think it will be difficult, and not only because of Button, because if you ignored him today, there was stil VET, WEB and ALO behind.
Simply put, Lewis has to wear shoes not his size. If you have small foot, it can still fit, but if your foot is big, ehm you are screwed.. :p :p

Edited by revlec, 18 March 2012 - 09:10.


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#280 Markn93

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:09

I have seen Button come in many times before Lewis even though he should did not have the first call. Button just has a bigger say in the team just like Alonso and Vettel. Lewis is IMO is number 2 much like Massa and Webber.


:lol: (Sarcasm right  ;) )

#281 robefc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:11

Was it? oh yeah :drunk: Lewis had a 10 second lead wiped clean,anyway I don't like it for the simple fact that you don't gift your enemyRBR nothing,and they did.
If Vettel pips em in Brasil by 3 points,remember this post.


Ok, so Lewis lost say 9 seconds to vettel at the first stops.

Lets swap jenson and lewis's stops around...so button loses 9 seconds to lewis and is well behind after the first stops.

Would that be fair?



#282 topical

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:14

Well done Jenson. I admit I wasn't expecting that but he easily had the measure of Hamilton today.

Didn't see the PC. What was so outrageous about Hamilton? Did he say something against the team?

#283 theTruth

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:14

Coral and others... lmao.

The thing is,Hamilton isn't on another level,he is there on the fighting with Button,Alonso,Vettel to be the best.

Today he was defeated,lets live for another battle and see the result.

I think we are too hard on him,like he is "the best" and can't lose.

He isn't the best people,he is one of the best for sure,and the challenge is big.

True. But like only Button, he was supposed to be one of the guys with the by far fastest car today. And yet Button drives off into the distance. At least let 'em fight. Keep us in some kind of suspense, at least.

But I guess it's some tribute to Lewis that his car has to be that slow to even keep it close. At least, someone seems to think so.

#284 btrader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:15

Ok, so Lewis lost say 9 seconds to vettel at the first stops.

Lets swap jenson and lewis's stops around...so button loses 9 seconds to lewis and is well behind after the first stops.

Would that be fair?



yes nice logic their tyres were in the same condition did you watch the live timing? :stoned:

#285 flyer121

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:16

lead driver getting call is understandable, but it is something that needs to be revisited and tweaked.

It is a terrible thing if it means destroying the race of the 2nd driver, it almost did in China ....and basically cost them a place this race.

Had they pit Lewis two laps earlier and told him to conserve or both of them one lap earlier, they would have still been fine. But having him drive too many laps with his tires over the cliff just so Jenson can pit optimally is a bit of bullshit.

Jenson conserves his tires better, so whenever they make sure Lewis pits AFTER him in the first stint...his races are almost always ruined.

Lewis can avoid this by outqualifying and getting better starts... but he cant everytime and there will be more days like today. With the field being quite close, they could easily ruin his WDC fight with this rubbish strategy call.

They are basically forcing Lewis to conserve tires like Jenson, which is against everything in his instincts that brought him to F1 and got him a world championship.

It is pure bullsh*t


Well what more can they do.... They did both pitstops on the same lap and lewis didnt have to wait for one extra lap.

Before the second pitstops , i heard lewis suggesting grip was gone but that time they cudnt do it as it wud mean an extra stop.

If you mean that they shud always go for the one extra stop because lewis is all out pacer and tyre destroyer , then take it up with Lewis because he has a say in the strategy before the race begins...

I m sure he doesnt see himself as his fans picture him... Sure wouldnt want an extra stop. Remeber last year!


#286 hammibal

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:16

He could take a look at how happy Alonso was finishing 5th. He could also be excited to battle Jenson throughout the year, and say il get you next week. But nothing of that. Sadly.

Alonso was driving a truck, Lewis had the best car, i think there's a bit of a difference in expectations there

The scorecard!

That would be Jenson 2 - 1 Lewis

Doesnt matter. Alonso was gonna get a car that would win from the start. Well maybe not win but at least a podium. And here he is, finishing 5th in a car thats a good second slower than the mclaren. And look at Vettel, defending his title, totally resigning that Button was uncatchable. But he also was happy.

Hamilton was gonna turn a corner on this year mentally wise. Doesnt look like its all 100% yet tbh.

You think Alonso had a car good enough to get a podium? :confused:

As a mclaren fan this is one of the things that annoys me the most.
The notion they have to stick to the by-the-book-plan as cost them in the past and will cost them in the future...
They just can't seem to adapt to the situation...

Basically it means everytime that Jenson runs in front of Lewis, Lewis is screwed



#287 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:16

Didn't see the PC. What was so outrageous about Hamilton? Did he say something against the team?

He didn't look happy enough.

#288 MinT

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:19

Lewis screwed up his start and Button took it and never looked back, and didnt put a foot wrong all race. He won this race on merit. He was the better man today, as Hamilton was the better man yesterday. Simple.


This pretty much sums it up - great win from Button after a very fast drive.

Seems weird to be saying Button is the faster driver - but today he was. Drove away from Hami at the start and was faster again after the SC restart. Dont know why but we didnt see the "Racer" in Hami again today.

The moaning about the pitstops is just fluff - yes Vettel got an advantage with the SC but if Hami had been up behind Button he wouldnt have lost the position. No team is going to disadvantage the leading driver to help the 2nd place man (other than Ferrari of course  ;) )

#289 robefc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:21

yes nice logic their tyres were in the same condition did you watch the live timing? :stoned:


Fair point but lewis was only 3 seconds behind so there's plently of headroom for my logic still to work out with lewis ahead ;)

#290 hammibal

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:24

This pretty much sums it up - great win from Button after a very fast drive.

Seems weird to be saying Button is the faster driver - but today he was. Drove away from Hami at the start and was faster again after the SC restart. Dont know why but we didnt see the "Racer" in Hami again today.

The moaning about the pitstops is just fluff - yes Vettel got an advantage with the SC but if Hami had been up behind Button he wouldnt have lost the position. No team is going to disadvantage the leading driver to help the 2nd place man (other than Ferrari of course ;) )

Lewis lost time to Vettel at the first pitstop because he had to wait for Jenson to pit first

#291 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:24

Ok, so Lewis lost say 9 seconds to vettel at the first stops.

Lets swap jenson and lewis's stops around...so button loses 9 seconds to lewis and is well behind after the first stops.

Would that be fair?

Button was just told his times were ok wasn't he,IIRC? Whilst Lewis was losing chunks.This is a ''team'' no? So a 1-2 should be their main priority no?
And not doing that ain't fair.

#292 robefc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:26

Button was just told his times were ok wasn't he,IIRC? Whilst Lewis was losing chunks.This is a ''team'' no? So a 1-2 should be their main priority no?
And not doing that ain't fair.


Would you still be saying that if they advantaged jb over lh for the good of the team?

I wouldn't, I'd be hopping mad.

#293 northanmonkee

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:31

Dissapointed overall .
Poor by Lewis, bad start and off the pace , button was supreme , hope next race Lewis
Does better or button will start turning screw .

#294 TheBunk

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:32

This pretty much sums it up - great win from Button after a very fast drive.

Seems weird to be saying Button is the faster driver - but today he was. Drove away from Hami at the start and was faster again after the SC restart. Dont know why but we didnt see the "Racer" in Hami again today.

The moaning about the pitstops is just fluff - yes Vettel got an advantage with the SC but if Hami had been up behind Button he wouldnt have lost the position. No team is going to disadvantage the leading driver to help the 2nd place man (other than Ferrari of course ;) )



Buttons restart was the best ive seen from anyone in a long time. What a pace, he was flying!



#295 btrader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:33

Would you still be saying that if they advantaged jb over lh for the good of the team?

I wouldn't, I'd be hopping mad.



would button be out there if he was losing time on his tyres? no! He would tell the team he is coming in, undercut or not. He has done it before Lewis is the one who is the wimp.

#296 m0912329

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:34

It doesn't feel right Button can outpace everyone in a dry race.

I hope he proves me wrong by winning this year's WDC.

#297 DefJack

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:34

Lewis didn't have his best race, but he was screwed by the pitstops and the safety car.

#298 stanga

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:35

Not quite sure where all the woe is me talk is coming from.

A poor start cost Lewis the win in my opinion. That's it.

As for him looking disappointed, so what? That's what being a competitor means. When you start on pole, make a mistake and catch some bad luck you are going to feel a bit pissed off.

As for the 'weak' talk? What rubbish. He's his father's son, and has overcome a tremendous amount of adversity, weathering an enormous amount of pressure in the process.

Well done Jenson, superb drive today. Great to see the Union Flag on the podium.

#299 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:35

Would you still be saying that if they advantaged jb over lh for the good of the team?

I wouldn't, I'd be hopping mad.

How would they advantage him,that is not a fact Rob,disadvantaging Lewis was. I'm surprised you don't see the irony here.

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#300 robefc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:36

would button be out there if he was losing time on his tyres? no! He would tell the team he is coming in, undercut or not. He has done it before Lewis is the one who is the wimp.


Has he?

If you could point me to the times that jenson has come in before lewis without the team being the ones that called him in or at least agreed I'd appreciate it...

Amusing to hear Lewis get called a wimp when he usually gets carpeted for not being nice enough to the team, and if you want an example of him coming in of his own accord have a look at malaysia last year.