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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#2951 robefc

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 15:58

It's like having Yohan Blake, Usain Bolt and co to run 1500m or forcing them to jog 150m in a 200m race and using those results to determine the fastest man in the world. Or like another analogy someone wrote in this whole Pirelli silly business, giving tennis players degradable rackets so that the harder you hit the worse the rackets get and you gotta be gentle with them to last the whole match. Sure it will make the results of Grand Slams etc more fun and Djokovic and co probably won't dominate as much but really, isn't that bullsh*t?


I'm not quite sure of my thoughts on this topic tbh, however all of the above are poor analogies imo. Tyres are always hugely important, they've always degraded and they've always needed to be managed.

A 100m runner never has to pace himself and never has to run a 1500m in competition. Changing or degrading racquets are not a feature of tennis.

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#2952 as65p

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:04

Yeah it's all a conspiracy :stoned: which Hembrey never disagreed to btw ;)

So what it was his 1st year? MW bent over backwards to make him feel at home,and JB wasn't some rookie but the incumbent WDC who Ham did not beat convincingly but rather easily without trouble or so it seemed.


Without trouble? How would you describe last year then? Go back and look at the bitching after Button had won two races to Hamiltons zero at the start of the 2010. Also interesting that back then it wasn't the evil tyres that conspired against poor Lewis, but the evil weather. :drunk:

As I said, excuses are never running out.

I wonder what you'll say when your idol calls it how it is :lol: Another excuse perhaps?


My mind works different to yours. :)

#2953 as65p

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:09

The fact that there are differentials at all though makes a nonsense of the "driving to a delta" line of argument. If the Red Bulls and McLarens were poodling around 2 seconds slower than the car was capable of, why were the Force Indias and Williams not able to keep up?


Now that's naughty of you, to spell it out just like that. :mad:

 ;)

#2954 as65p

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:14

There was a lot of talk about racecraft and strategy in this thread in 2010.

I think it was accepted that year that lewis had the edge on pace, which is why whether pit stop calls were down to the driver or team became a hot topic.

Now that might be down to JB being new to the team, not having the seat fitted correctly etc, it might have been down to the tyres versus last year or it might have been a bit of both or some other factor.

But I think it's clear there is a difference in their relative race pace in 2010 compared to 2011/12.


Yes there is. But that's nothing special, it happens up and down the grid that differences between teammates don't remain constant, I think there are many more factors at work than the ones you mentioned. Of course such variations don't go well with many peoples overwhelming urge to shout "My driver is better than yours! Fact!".

#2955 bauss

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:16

I'm not quite sure of my thoughts on this topic tbh, however all of the above are poor analogies imo. Tyres are always hugely important, they've always degraded and they've always needed to be managed.

A 100m runner never has to pace himself and never has to run a 1500m in competition. Changing or degrading racquets are not a feature of tennis.


You seem to miss the point.

First I used 200m as an analogy, not 100m.... because most 200m runners except the very best (and only for finals) have to pace themselves.

Yes sprinters do not have to run 1500m because that is not their discipline. Their talents, upbringing and training prepare them for something else, just like the talents, upbringing and training of F1 drivers prepare them for speed, driving at the limit etc not just MANAGING tires.


You are right, changing or degrading racquets are not a feature of tennis for a reason.... because they create an artificial limit which is not at the root of the sport.

You see tennis players change racket in matches when they feel one has become weakened.... forcing them to use only one all match will be creating an artificial limit.

Likewise, never in the history of the sport were tires engineered intentionally and specifically to force drivers to race well below the limits of their speed and abilities and create an artificial limit in the race. Never has the diff. in fastest lap and qualifying been so huge.

And the only time tires were a huge factor was the tire war era which created the extreme opposite of what we currently have...and was also wrong.

Tyre management/conservation was just one of many factors in a grand prix race.... never THE MAIN FACTOR. That is my point

Edited by bauss, 26 April 2012 - 16:18.


#2956 engel

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:20

You seem to miss the point.

First I used 200m as an analogy, not 100m.... because most 200m runners except the very best (and only for finals) have to pace themselves.

Yes sprinters do not have to run 1500m because that is not their discipline. Their talents, upbringing and training prepare them for something else, just like the talents, upbringing and training of F1 drivers prepare them for speed, driving at the limit etc not just MANAGING tires.


You are right, changing or degrading racquets are not a feature of tennis for a reason.... because they create an artificial limit which is not at the root of the sport.

You see tennis players change racket in matches when they feel one has become weakened.... forcing them to use only one all match will be creating an artificial limit.

Likewise, never in the history of the sport were tires engineered intentionally and specifically to force drivers to race well below the limits of their speed and abilities. Never has the diff. in fastest lap and qualifying been so huge.

And the only time tires were a huge factor was the tire war era which created the extreme opposite of what we currently have...and was also wrong.

Tyre management/conservation was just one of many factors in a grand prix race.... never THE MAIN FACTOR. That is my point


your points are still invalid. Tennis on clay and Tennis or grass are two wildly different disciplines. You 're saying true tennis = grass cause I like the power players and clay is not tennis, it's an artificial limit to my guy's power serve.


#2957 robefc

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:21

Yes there is. But that's nothing special, it happens up and down the grid that differences between teammates don't remain constant, I think there are many more factors at work than the ones you mentioned. Of course such variations don't go well with many peoples overwhelming urge to shout "My driver is better than yours! Fact!".


Feel free to elaborate...:)

#2958 robefc

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:22

You seem to miss the point.

First I used 200m as an analogy, not 100m.... because most 200m runners except the very best (and only for finals) have to pace themselves.

Yes sprinters do not have to run 1500m because that is not their discipline. Their talents, upbringing and training prepare them for something else, just like the talents, upbringing and training of F1 drivers prepare them for speed, driving at the limit etc not just MANAGING tires.


You are right, changing or degrading racquets are not a feature of tennis for a reason.... because they create an artificial limit which is not at the root of the sport.

You see tennis players change racket in matches when they feel one has become weakened.... forcing them to use only one all match will be creating an artificial limit.

Likewise, never in the history of the sport were tires engineered intentionally and specifically to force drivers to race well below the limits of their speed and abilities and create an artificial limit in the race. Never has the diff. in fastest lap and qualifying been so huge.

And the only time tires were a huge factor was the tire war era which created the extreme opposite of what we currently have...and was also wrong.

Tyre management/conservation was just one of many factors in a grand prix race.... never THE MAIN FACTOR. That is my point


Hmmmm, still don't like them as analogies but I dislike them less than I did before! :)


#2959 as65p

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:24

Feel free to elaborate...:)


Well starting with the thing which the tyres are bolted on... I heard they built them different every year, believe it or not!  ;)

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#2960 hammibal

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:25

Yeah. Sad sight. TBH, I have a growing admiration for Hamilton not getting down that road, at least not yet. Or probably he's just realizing the basic idiocy the argument "I'm not better than the rest because the game is too easy"? :D



2010 was Buttons first year in the team, and even on now mythically everlasting Bridgestones Hamilton didn't beat him half as convincing as predicted. Since then the tyre excuse has come in handy for those still mourning that disappointment, and the even bigger one a year later. Really, life isn't fair :cry: On the bright side, there's always at least one more excuse in the barrel than things life can throw at you. :p

Thats actually the point, do you think the top F1 drivers would be any quicker in cars that are actually easier to drive like touring cars, would they be any quicker than Jason Plato or Yvan Muller?

Lewis actually looked quite comfortable against Jenson but Jenson didnt discredit himself

I pretty much agree with this

even after Bahrain where Lewis looked quicker in the race and a Lewis fan should be pleased, the whole thing just seems so hollow and contrived. You know their pace is all very much tire limited. Much more than I can ever remember...

the pace is either determinant on who gets clear air all stint, who lucks into the perfect setup for the race day temps, who copes better with a wrong setup (because of temps and unpredictable tires), who conserves tires better etc etc.

It's all tire dependent this and that....sure some of those skills are nice to have and should be utilized in normal GP racing but should it really be the end-all be-all to differentiate top drivers?

It's like having Yohan Blake, Usain Bolt and co to run 1500m or forcing them to jog 150m in a 200m race and using those results to determine the fastest man in the world. Or like another analogy someone wrote in this whole Pirelli silly business, giving tennis players degradable rackets so that the harder you hit the worse the rackets get and you gotta be gentle with them to last the whole match. Sure it will make the results of Grand Slams etc more fun and Djokovic and co probably won't dominate as much but really, isn't that bullsh*t?
That's exactly what we have in F1 now, having sprint drivers become some form of endurance racers, pancake-Pirelli whisperers to reduce the chances of one team/driver dominating and to improve the show. Sure more casual fans may enjoy this but comeon this is no real F1. I mean, when 24 hour cars are driven more flatout than 2-hour F1 cars, it is clear we got a serious issue.

As far as these two are concerned, both are top drivers...for those that doubted b4 the pairing, it was confirmed in 2010. They are both good enough racers that, unlike the Massas and such, their race performances and speed exceed the artificial limit given by these tires. This thread is supposed to be an argument about the final extra, buts its apparent alot of that final extra will never be displayed or be of use in this formula. Their race pace will continue to be very close and see-saw up and down all based on what is going on with the tires at any given point. Its become clear alot of the argument about this and that has become moot.

Whoever wins this scorecard will be down to consistency, luck (reliability, pitstops, strategy etc) and qualifying performance. Ham has the slight advantage because he seems to have one of those well covered and his head in the right place (which gives consistency, mind you its not that hard when you arent been pushed to the limit in races - chances of a Monza 2009 are greatly reduced so as a matter of fact, even "consistency" in the new formula is hollow) but any victory by him will still be hollow because it is not determined by what should be the primary factor in grand prix racing - Drivers racing and battling at the speed and limit of their abilities and cars.
Not some lower artificial limit imposed by tires engineered to do just that - bunch everyone together, create unpredictability and "improve the show". The sport itself suffers greatly for this.

I agree i'm not quite sure what i'm watching anymore, Lewis has passed comment that since entering F1 he's had to driver slower and slower year on year, just enjoy the show i guess

Without trouble? How would you describe last year then? Go back and look at the bitching after Button had won two races to Hamiltons zero at the start of the 2010. Also interesting that back then it wasn't the evil tyres that conspired against poor Lewis, but the evil weather. :drunk:

As I said, excuses are never running out.

I think comment was made on Jenson's better strategy and was a weakness on Lewis's part

#2961 bauss

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:25

your points are still invalid. Tennis on clay and Tennis or grass are two wildly different disciplines. You 're saying true tennis = grass cause I like the power players and clay is not tennis, it's an artificial limit to my guy's power serve.


Nope, because those two things are at the root of the sport (including hard courts).... that is how the sport works so its ok.


If F1 just started today and we had these pancake Pirellis, then we should all accept that is the nature of the sport... flatout one lap speed on Saturday, tire management lottery and exercise on Sunday.

But we have decades of the sport saying that is not the case

#2962 enrm6

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:27

2 3 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 66 +0.6 secs 3
3 4 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 66 +35.6 secs

http://en.mclarenf-1.....Jenson Button

With Vettel holding him up. DO pray Pirelli doesn't bring such tire back,or it will get ugly.


What's your point? Lewis made an extra stop and that was clearly the strategy to have.

#2963 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:33

2010 was Buttons first year in the team, and even on now mythically everlasting Bridgestones Hamilton didn't beat him half as convincing as predicted. Since then the tyre excuse has come in handy for those still mourning that disappointment, and the even bigger one a year later. Really, life isn't fair :cry: On the bright side, there's always at least one more excuse in the barrel than things life can throw at you. :p


Tyre excuses haven't come as a handy excuse, we've been proven 100% correct, so where does that leave the likes of you et al? I talk about logical failings, but it unsurprisingly flies over your head. Myself, fieraku et al, have been debating this issue Ad nauseam, to be proven right(just to remind you again) while all you are left with is to argue over the periphery. How does that make you feel? This whole "are the tyres fit for purpose/can they be raced on, driven flat out/racing has become a tyre management exercise" debate has been your Matrix moment and you failed the test. You and your fellow cohorts had a choice of pills but you preferred to stay where you are, despite the evidence telling you your world view is not real. Is that the red pill, or blue pill as65p? This issue is going to get bigger and Pirelli will get torn a new-@rsehole for deliberately providing Micky Mouse/substandard racing tyres. Who'd believe such a farcical situation could have arisen, that Hembury and co would produce tyres you actually cant race on, without them crumbling to pieces and laptime dropping like a stone. :drunk:

This is their Gerald Ratner moment without having to say the words, as somebody else so eloquently put it. I believe it will take Buttons, own comments of stating the obvious, for die-hards like you to finally concede. Leaving your position of the last 13 months, totally defunct and I'm looking forward to it. ;)

#2964 as65p

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:34

Nope, because those two things are at the root of the sport (including hard courts).... that is how the sport works so its ok.


If F1 just started today and we had these pancake Pirellis, then we should all accept that is the nature of the sport... flatout one lap speed on Saturday, tire management lottery and exercise on Sunday.

But we have decades of the sport saying that is not the case


The only constant is though, it has never been a constant relation between qualifying and race speed, it was, and is, changing all the time. There were days were in qualifying they used different tyres, different engines and even to a large degree different cars...

As Dunder says, As long as the HRT's don't run with the McLarens, all that talk of the tyres holding the cars back remains bollocks.

Edited by as65p, 26 April 2012 - 18:45.


#2965 as65p

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:39

Tyre excuses haven't come as a handy excuse, we've been proven 100% correct, so where does that leave the likes of you et al? I talk about logical failings, but it unsurprisingly flies over your head. Myself, fieraku et al, have been debating this issue Ad nauseam, to be proven right(just to remind you again) while all you are left with is to argue over the periphery. How does that make you feel? This whole "are the tyres fit for purpose/can they be raced on, driven flat out/racing has become a tyre management exercise" debate has been your Matrix moment and you failed the test. You and your fellow cohorts had a choice of pills but you preferred to stay where you are, despite the evidence telling you your world view is not real. Is that the red pill, or blue pill as65p? This issue is going to get bigger and Pirelli will get torn a new-@rsehole for deliberately providing Micky Mouse/substandard racing tyres. Who'd believe such a farcical situation could have arisen, that Hembury and co would produce tyres you actually cant race on, without them crumbling to pieces and laptime dropping like a stone. :drunk:

This is their Gerald Ratner moment without having to say the words, as somebody else so eloquently put it. I believe it will take Buttons, own comments of stating the obvious, for die-hards like you to finally concede. Leaving your position of the last 13 months, totally defunct and I'm looking forward to it.;)


Man, I'm grateful you won't post between two weeks ago and Barcelona! :eek:

Seriously, each time I think your pompous style has reached mountain top, you come out with even more of it in your next post! :up: :D

Make no mistake, I'm enjoying it - as long as you don't expect me to take any of it serious, it's all good! :wave:



#2966 revlec

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:39


2010 was Buttons first year in the team
, and even on now mythically everlasting Bridgestones Hamilton didn't beat him half as convincing as predicted. Since then the tyre excuse has come in handy for those still mourning that disappointment, and the even bigger one a year later. Really, life isn't fair :cry: On the bright side, there's always at least one more excuse in the barrel than things life can throw at you. :p


True, but it means nothing. If you are fast you are fast.
I remember a certain driver who won the WDC in 2007 and he was the new guy in the team.
I remember also an absolute rookie, who despite being new in the series was fast since day 1.

If you can not hit the ground running, you are not good enough. BUT did it in 2010, but it simply was not enough. If you analyse his 2010 and 2011 season, the only difference was HAM performances. In 2010 BUT was strong if not stronger than in 2011.

Edited by revlec, 26 April 2012 - 16:42.


#2967 Juggles

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:44

2010 was Buttons first year in the team, and even on now mythically everlasting Bridgestones Hamilton didn't beat him half as convincing as predicted. Since then the tyre excuse has come in handy for those still mourning that disappointment, and the even bigger one a year later. Really, life isn't fair :cry: On the bright side, there's always at least one more excuse in the barrel than things life can throw at you. :p


I disagree with that one. I didn't expect Hamilton to crush Button in the points table but I expected him to be in front in most dry, problem-free races. I was wrong. He was in front in every single one.

Edited by Juggles, 26 April 2012 - 16:46.


#2968 as65p

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:45

True, but it means nothing. If you are fast you are fast.
I remember a certain driver who won the WDC in 2007 and he was the new guy in the team.
I remember also an absolute rookie, who despite being new in the series was fast since day 1.

If you can not hit the ground running, you are not above average. :)


I got another one for you: if you're not constantly learning and improving, hitting the ground running won't take you very far.
Maybe, if you're fast you're fast. But definitely, if you think that's all there is to it, you're dumb.

#2969 as65p

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:48

I disagree with that one. I didn't expect Hamilton to crush Button in the points table but I expected him to be in front in most dry, problem-free races. I was wrong. He was in front in every single one.


Yeah, another myth, those "dry, problem-free races". They exist mainly in the teams simulators, out in the wild they're hardly spotted. Cruel real life takes care of them. :)

#2970 revlec

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:53

I got another one for you: if you're not constantly learning and improving, hitting the ground running won't take you very far.
Maybe, if you're fast you're fast. But definitely, if you think that's all there is to it, you're dumb.


Casey Stoner in Honda. A new team, and his team mate is the superfast Dani Pedrosa.
The first day of testing Stoner was alreading ahead riding a bike designed on Pedrosa.
I know you like to argue, and i suspect you are may be a lawyer or something. Anyway thansk for the dumb.  ;)

#2971 bauss

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 16:54

The only constant is though, it has never been a constant relation between qualifying and race speed, it was, and is, changing all the time. There were days were in qualifying they used different tyres, different engines and even to a large degree different cars...

As Dunder says, as long as the HRT's don't run with the McLarens, all that talk of the tyres holding the cars back remains bollocks.



that is such an arbitrary extreme to have b4 considering the line crossed.

To go back to my (controversial) analogies, Usain Bolt will probably still be a force to be reckoned with if he and his sprint colleagues had to suddenly start running 400/800m. Likewise would the Djokovics and Federers not start losing to 50th, 60th seeds because of degradable rackets.

That does not mean it is ok to do. It is the same over here.

Like I said, the moment you realize 24 hr endurance racing cars are driven more flatout than F1 cars should be the point you know we have an issue.

The moment 90-95% of the race is done tiptoeing to save tires, is the moment we do not have a proper F1 race anymore. If anyone can prove this to historically be the case for F1 or GP racing, then I along with others who share my opinion are wrong.

Edited by bauss, 26 April 2012 - 16:57.


#2972 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 17:00

Man, I'm grateful you won't post between two weeks ago and Barcelona! :eek:

Seriously, each time I think your pompous style has reached mountain top, you come out with even more of it in your next post! :up: :D

Make no mistake, I'm enjoying it - as long as you don't expect me to take any of it serious, it's all good! :wave:


It's not pompous, it is the elation after months of frustration. Even if I cut out the tiny hint of condescension, it still leaves the premise of my argument correct and thus leaves your position redundant. Unless? :lol:


#2973 revlec

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 17:04

The moment 90-95% of the race is done tiptoeing to save tires, is the moment we do not have a proper F1 race anymore. If anyone can prove this to historically be the case for F1 or GP racing, then I along with others who share my opinion are wrong.


In the past it could have been necessary because it was the state of the art(may be) at that time. Now we have the opposite. State of the art machinery driven on cheap tyres(or state of the art for some, if we consider the ability to produce gamble results an art). :)

Edited by revlec, 26 April 2012 - 17:27.


#2974 PARAZAR

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 17:28

Casey Stoner in Honda. A new team, and his team mate is the superfast Dani Pedrosa.
The first day of testing Stoner was alreading ahead riding a bike designed on Pedrosa.
I know you like to argue, and i suspect you are may be a lawyer or something. Anyway thansk for the dumb.  ;)


What does that have to do with anything? When comparing the two did you ever stop to consider that Stoner is 1.71 and weighs 58kgs while Pedrosa is 1.58 and weighs 50 kgs. Stoner is fast, Dani is an alien and Lorenzo is a more complete than the both of them. Anyway different subject.

#2975 zack1994

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 17:43

True, but it means nothing. If you are fast you are fast.
I remember a certain driver who won the WDC in 2007 and he was the new guy in the team.
I remember also an absolute rookie, who despite being new in the series was fast since day 1.

If you can not hit the ground running, you are not good enough. BUT did it in 2010, but it simply was not enough. If you analyse his 2010 and 2011 season, the only difference was HAM performances. In 2010 BUT was strong if not stronger than in 2011.

In 2007 lewis was taken into account when mclaren were building the car therefore fitted in the car properly and being at the right height, he also had in season testing to help to intergrate himself further into the team, jenson didn't have that.

Your last sentence is absolute rubbish button was quicker in 2011 and alot closer to lewis in qualifying.
He was happier with the car and could put more consistent race perfromaces together because of better qualifying even when things weren't perfect he bounced back

#2976 robefc

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 17:50

Well starting with the thing which the tyres are bolted on... I heard they built them different every year, believe it or not! ;)


By which you mean they built the car to aid button and hinder lewis? :eek: :p

#2977 MP422

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 17:55

In 2007 lewis was taken into account when mclaren were building the car therefore fitted in the car properly and being at the right height, he also had in season testing to help to intergrate himself further into the team, jenson didn't have that.

Your last sentence is absolute rubbish button was quicker in 2011 and alot closer to lewis in qualifying.
He was happier with the car and could put more consistent race perfromaces together because of better qualifying even when things weren't perfect he bounced back


Nonsense !!!

http://www.f1fanatic...laren-for-2010/

http://www.f1fanatic...-race-hamilton/



#2978 revlec

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 17:59

In 2007 lewis was taken into account when mclaren were building the car therefore fitted in the car properly and being at the right height, he also had in season testing to help to intergrate himself further into the team, jenson didn't have that.

Your last sentence is absolute rubbish button was quicker in 2011 and alot closer to lewis in qualifying.
He was happier with the car and could put more consistent race perfromaces together because of better qualifying even when things weren't perfect he bounced back


Rubbish according to you.
First part of the 2010 season, BUT was stronger. Australia, China, Turkey, Spa(DNF because of VET), Canada, Monza.
In 2011 Jenson's season started after Monaco, helped with Canada(Lewis DNF) and multiple Lewis kisses/crashes with Massa and others.
In 2010 Jenson was in the zone from the beginning

Edited by revlec, 26 April 2012 - 18:07.


#2979 gricey1981

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:01

In 2007 lewis was taken into account when mclaren were building the car therefore fitted in the car properly and being at the right height, he also had in season testing to help to intergrate himself further into the team, jenson didn't have that.

Your last sentence is absolute rubbish button was quicker in 2011 and alot closer to lewis in qualifying.
He was happier with the car and could put more consistent race perfromaces together because of better qualifying even when things weren't perfect he bounced back


On average though his qually ha not got better though has it.

Wasnt it recently proved he is still on average 2 tenths back.

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#2980 zack1994

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:17

Nonsense !!!

http://www.f1fanatic...laren-for-2010/

http://www.f1fanatic...-race-hamilton/

Did it look like lewis was too high in the car.
Also alonso and lewis are pretty much the same height, button and hamilton are not.
That was the problem for button, but it wouldn't have been a problem for lewis as he and alonso are pretty much the same height.

#2981 zack1994

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:24

On average though his qually ha not got better though has it.

Wasnt it recently proved he is still on average 2 tenths back.

Nope take a look
Here
Qualifying sessions we can look at fairly.

#2982 Dunder

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:26

The only constant is though, it has never been a constant relation between qualifying and race speed, it was, and is, changing all the time. There were days were in qualifying they used different tyres, different engines and even to a large degree different cars...

As Dunder says, as long as the HRT's don't run with the McLarens, all that talk of the tyres holding the cars back remains bollocks.


With respect, that is not what I said.

Edited by Dunder, 26 April 2012 - 18:26.


#2983 zack1994

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:37

Rubbish according to you.
First part of the 2010 season, BUT was stronger. Australia, China, Turkey, Spa(DNF because of VET), Canada, Monza.
In 2011 Jenson's season started after Monaco, helped with Canada(Lewis DNF) and multiple Lewis kisses/crashes with Massa and others.
In 2010 Jenson was in the zone from the beginning

You said If you analyse his 2010 and 2011 season, the only difference was HAM performances. In 2010 BUT was strong if not stronger than in 2011.
That's rubbish.
Are you going to ignore that jenson was faster in quali in 2011 nothing to do with degradation just balls out quali laps and he was closer to lewis.
Why is turkey, spa and canada there.

#2984 hammibal

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:43

Nope take a look
Here
Qualifying sessions we can look at fairly.

I keep meaning to check that out but the site where i normally look keeps crashing

#2985 as65p

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:46

With respect, that is not what I said.


Okay, corrected in my OP. No problem saying it myself. :D

#2986 gricey1981

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 19:27

Nope take a look
Here
Qualifying sessions we can look at fairly.


yet Button had outqualified Hamilton 3-1 4 races in 2010.

I don't think he has got much better - there is always a tenth or two on average.



#2987 bauss

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 19:54

You said If you analyse his 2010 and 2011 season, the only difference was HAM performances. In 2010 BUT was strong if not stronger than in 2011.
That's rubbish.
Are you going to ignore that jenson was faster in quali in 2011 nothing to do with degradation just balls out quali laps and he was closer to lewis.
Why is turkey, spa and canada there.


so what do you think is the reason for the consistent 2 tenth qualy gap in 2012 again....with BUT even more low in the car and even more comfortable in the team after 2011?

#2988 zack1994

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 20:13

so what do you think is the reason for the consistent 2 tenth qualy gap in 2012 again....with BUT even more low in the car and even more comfortable in the team after 2011?

Well it was 1 tenth in aus and mal in china we didn't see a fair comparison and in bahrain when button was happy with the car on his 1st q3 run he was half a tenth slower than lewis obviously the next run he lost that balance and couldn't improve again, but when both are happy with balance its seems to be 1-2 tenths.
Considering the cars aren't as stable as 2011 thats a pretty good start.

Edited by zack1994, 26 April 2012 - 20:14.


#2989 bauss

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 20:51

Well it was 1 tenth in aus and mal in china we didn't see a fair comparison and in bahrain when button was happy with the car on his 1st q3 run he was half a tenth slower than lewis obviously the next run he lost that balance and couldn't improve again, but when both are happy with balance its seems to be 1-2 tenths.
Considering the cars aren't as stable as 2011 thats a pretty good start.


the start in 2010 was much better though.

We will see...

As far as comparison btw these two are concerned, Qualy seems to be the only aspect of comparison that is valid and largely unaffected by the current sham Formula.... but then, there's little more to learn it seems

#2990 Juggles

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 23:22

Yeah, another myth, those "dry, problem-free races". They exist mainly in the teams simulators, out in the wild they're hardly spotted. Cruel real life takes care of them. :)


Really? How would you describe Bahrain, Malaysia, Turkey, Canada, Valencia, Britain, Germany, Brazil and Abu Dhabi? Anomalies?

Statistically, Button beat Hamilton in Australia, China, Spain, Hungary, Italy, Singapore and Japan. That's 7/19. Two were in variable conditions. In four Hamilton retired, twice from mechanical failure and twice from contact with other cars. Of those four, Hamilton was in front of Button in three at the point of retirement. In the final one (Japan), Hamilton lost third gear and nursed his car to the end, letting Button past in the process.

Button retired in Monaco and Belgium so those results are discounted. However, in both he was behind Hamilton when he retired.

I'm sorry, but from my point of view an analysis of the results is fairly conclusive. Hamilton dominated Button in 2010.

#2991 Pamphlet

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 23:59

Wait, people are genuinely arguing that Button was NOT dominated by just about every other top 5 driver in 2010? I thought it was general consensus - he was dominated by them in 2010 and he jumped back in 2011.

Edited by Pamphlet, 26 April 2012 - 23:59.


#2992 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:24

Really? How would you describe Bahrain, Malaysia, Turkey, Canada, Valencia, Britain, Germany, Brazil and Abu Dhabi? Anomalies?

Statistically, Button beat Hamilton in Australia, China, Spain, Hungary, Italy, Singapore and Japan. That's 7/19. Two were in variable conditions. In four Hamilton retired, twice from mechanical failure and twice from contact with other cars. Of those four, Hamilton was in front of Button in three at the point of retirement. In the final one (Japan), Hamilton lost third gear and nursed his car to the end, letting Button past in the process.

Button retired in Monaco and Belgium so those results are discounted. However, in both he was behind Hamilton when he retired.

I'm sorry, but from my point of view an analysis of the results is fairly conclusive. Hamilton dominated Button in 2010.



Not really. Button only trailed LH by three points with three to go that season. He was only a hand full of points away from likely being supported as McLaren's contender for the wdc in the final three races. He definitely wasn't dominated!

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 27 April 2012 - 15:00.


#2993 TheBunk

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:56

This issue is going to get bigger and Pirelli will get torn a new-@rsehole for deliberately providing Micky Mouse/substandard racing tyres. Who'd believe such a farcical situation could have arisen, that Hembury and co would produce tyres you actually cant race on, without them crumbling to pieces and laptime dropping like a stone. :drunk:


I dont understand this. Pirelli was pushed to produce the tyres we are seeing now. 4 different winners in 4 different races is probably just what Ecclestone & Co wanted to see. Add to that the super strict tech rules and you have a field that is very, very close.

Mclaren seems to be a bit caught out how to make those tyres work in various temperatures, but the car is still very good. I fear, as a Ferrari fan, it wont be long before they find the sweet spot and start beating everybody like they did in Melbourne.

It will be interesting to see wich Mclaren driver finds it out first.


#2994 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:16

I dont understand this. Pirelli was pushed to produce the tyres we are seeing now. 4 different winners in 4 different races is probably just what Ecclestone & Co wanted to see. Add to that the super strict tech rules and you have a field that is very, very close.

Mclaren seems to be a bit caught out how to make those tyres work in various temperatures, but the car is still very good. I fear, as a Ferrari fan, it wont be long before they find the sweet spot and start beating everybody like they did in Melbourne.

It will be interesting to see wich Mclaren driver finds it out first.


Courtesy of Maverick.....

From the latest Autosport Plus article http://plus.autospor...od-news-for-f1/ :

"If anyone tells you they can alter the tyre temperature with set-up they are bullshitting," said the straight-talking Permane. "Anyone who says that they know how to change their degradation is bullshitting.

"Everyone would love to do that and people think they can do, to some extent. Mercedes have a quick car and a lot of clever people, but look at their race pace in the first two races. It was awful. If it was easy, they would have done it.

"We spent all of last year trying to stop our rear degradation and it really is ever so difficult. You can play around with suspension geometries, and it's relatively straightforward to design a different geometry, but how do you test it? It's so difficult in-season. You get one set of tyres in P1 and two for P2, so how do you measure the difference between two sessions with changing conditions?"



As my teenage daughter would say, Pirelli F1 tyres are "pants". If you like these tyres and actually think they are fit for purpose, then so be it. I've always maintained the races with these joke tyres are exciting to the extent, DRS, KERS and Rhubarb Crumble non-racable new vs old tyres increase the overtaking, and the cars are closer compared to previous era's, but when analysed, even by the untrained eye, the inevitable conclusion is the racing is contrived and fake. With NASCAR, at least you know what you are signing up for. Competition yellows and yellow flags thrown if a plastic bag is blowing at turn 4 is par for the course. :rolleyes: Without the Yellow flags(and I watch NASCAR regularly) 80% of the field would be lapped and most of them would be lapped several times. The gap between the Hendricks/Roush Fenways/Gibbs/Penske/Michael Waltrip Racing vs teams like Chip Ganassi/JTG Daugherty/Front Row Motorsports etc is massive. BUT their is an important caveat. When they are racing, especially during the last 20-30 laps of a race, these guys are going flat out, because the Goodyears are fit for purpose. Can F1 claim the same?




#2995 Lazy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:33

Yup, he's been better. And with my method it's pretty difficult for Jenson to get in front again, as it is now Lewis would need like 3 shocking weekends in a row.

And yes, perhaps that method could work as well. With both methods the trick is to take everything in consideration and not just one (albeit crucial) moment.


Excuse me if I'm misunderstanding, but youre saying that your method suggests that Jenson has been so poor this season that, although we have only had 4 races, it would require 3 shocking races from Lewis for Jenson to catch up?

Tbh that doesn't tally up with the season that I've been watching which, to my mind, Jenson has just edged so far.

#2996 jjcale

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:39

Tyre excuses haven't come as a handy excuse, we've been proven 100% correct, so where does that leave the likes of you et al? I talk about logical failings, but it unsurprisingly flies over your head. Myself, fieraku et al, have been debating this issue Ad nauseam, to be proven right(just to remind you again) while all you are left with is to argue over the periphery. How does that make you feel? This whole "are the tyres fit for purpose/can they be raced on, driven flat out/racing has become a tyre management exercise" debate has been your Matrix moment and you failed the test. You and your fellow cohorts had a choice of pills but you preferred to stay where you are, despite the evidence telling you your world view is not real. Is that the red pill, or blue pill as65p? This issue is going to get bigger and Pirelli will get torn a new-@rsehole for deliberately providing Micky Mouse/substandard racing tyres. Who'd believe such a farcical situation could have arisen, that Hembury and co would produce tyres you actually cant race on, without them crumbling to pieces and laptime dropping like a stone. :drunk:

This is their Gerald Ratner moment without having to say the words, as somebody else so eloquently put it. I believe it will take Buttons, own comments of stating the obvious, for die-hards like you to finally concede. Leaving your position of the last 13 months, totally defunct and I'm looking forward to it.;)


I have been waiting for one of the "senior" drivers to have a go at Pirelli. When I read what was going on in testing, I though it would be LH to crack first and go public... But he has been on some kind of happy pills so far this season. MW was next in line in my mind as he is the most honest person on the grid IMO ... so I was pretty suprised the the normally very controlled MS was the first to have a go. But that's actually quite a appropriate given his status in sport that he should have the broadest shoulders. I expect other drivers to join him ... but you can never tell so much, about F1 is lies. I listened to the formerly excellent 5live podcast and with Croft and Davidson replaced by the venal Allen and the on the make Algusuari discuss the last race and the Pirelli tyres and it was literally vomit inducing. And there was no declaration of interest by either of them. In F1 as in so many other areas its lies lies lies everywhere you look. As you say the sad part is that for whatever reason most people are simply not capable of telling lies from truth anymore.... and worse yet when you give a logic based analysis people dont question the logic, they say stuff like "source" or they repeat the media lies back at you and point to their own "source" as if crap becomes gold just because the media says its so.

TBH if LH and Macca were winning, I would not be too bothered by all this (F1 is only entertainment after all) ... but I would not be claiming that these are good racing tyres... it like the FDuct. It was crap but it was our crap... so I didnt mind... but I didnt defend it.

The only thing that's worth saying as a corrective to the above is that all the drivers and teams have the same crap tyres to deal with so the winner will be who deals best with them (other things [esp luck] being equal). But dealing with the tyres above and beyond every other factor is not what F1 racing is about and in my mind there will be an asterisk beside this year's winners (who ever they are) in the record books as this is not actually F1 this year.

As for Pirelli, if they dont fix this ASAP I hope they get maximum bad publicy and leave the sport under a cloud... it would be well deserved for a cock up on this scale. Last year was forgivable, but two years running of this crap is not on.

#2997 slideways

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:39

Ragged Edge:

-I am not a regular participant of this thread.
-No one is claiming that the current tyres give sprint races.
-I don't like the Pirellis.
-I recommend trying to separate your primary goal of wowing the forum with your mental prowess from your secondary goal of proving a point.

#2998 Lazy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:41

Ragged Edge:

-I am not a regular participant of this thread.
-No one is claiming that the current tyres give sprint races.
-I don't like the Pirellis.
-I recommend trying to separate your primary goal of wowing the forum with your mental prowess from your secondary goal of proving a point.


:rotfl:

#2999 Lights

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:43

Excuse me if I'm misunderstanding, but youre saying that your method suggests that Jenson has been so poor this season that, although we have only had 4 races, it would require 3 shocking races from Lewis for Jenson to catch up?

Tbh that doesn't tally up with the season that I've been watching which, to my mind, Jenson has just edged so far.

No I was referring to all seasons combined, so 42 races. If Jenson wants to lead that score, basically a repeat of Italy, Singapore & Japan 2011 is required. Which I don't really see happening right now.

And I don't see how Jenson has edged this season so far either, unless you think Jenson's race in Malaysia was just as good as Hamiltons'.

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#3000 Lazy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:49

No I was referring to all seasons combined, so 42 races. If Jenson wants to lead that score, basically a repeat of Italy, Singapore & Japan 2011 is required. Which I don't really see happening right now.

And I don't see how Jenson has edged this season so far either, unless you think Jenson's race in Malaysia was just as good as Hamiltons'.


Fair enough.

I thought he was better in Aus and China and I thought the car was too bad in Bahrain to make a solid judgement, but if Hamilton edged Bahrain, I thought Jenson edged China by a little bit more.

Edit: And Jenson in Aus was the best performance of either of them by a fair margin.

Edited by Lazy, 27 April 2012 - 08:53.