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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#3001 slideways

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:55

I think what has been clear as day and unsettling to many is the way he's been struggling to match others in pace over stints despite being so quick over one lap.

Add to that the team stuff-ups, and it probably wouldn't be fun being either him, or a fan right now.

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#3002 Lights

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:57

Fair enough.

I thought he was better in Aus and China and I thought the car was too bad in Bahrain to make a solid judgement, but if Hamilton edged Bahrain, I thought Jenson edged China by a little bit more.

Edit: And Jenson in Aus was the best performance of either of them by a fair margin.

I don't think Lewis was that far behind in Melbourne. Their pace was similar and he only lost 2nd because of a SC.

And Bahrain and China were quite similar in terms of edging, you mustn't forget Lewis did outqualify him in both races but got the grid penalty in China.

So all these races were pretty close, but Jenson did royally screw up Sepang, which is why he's behind on my 2012 scorecard at the moment.

I could also go binary and call it 2-2 but that doesn't tell half the story. ;)

Edited by Lights, 27 April 2012 - 08:57.


#3003 Lazy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:03

I don't think Lewis was that far behind in Melbourne. Their pace was similar and he only lost 2nd because of a SC.

And Bahrain and China were quite similar in terms of edging, you mustn't forget Lewis did outqualify him in both races but got the grid penalty in China.

So all these races were pretty close, but Jenson did royally screw up Sepang, which is why he's behind on my 2012 scorecard at the moment.

I could also go binary and call it 2-2 but that doesn't tell half the story.;)


I tend to go binary and then nudge it according to gut feeling, but then I'm lazy :)

#3004 D.M.N.

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:24

Can we keep the discussion about tyres here: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=155428

This discussion is primarily about the relative performances of Button and Hamilton in 2012. Obviously you can mention tyres here, but full blown discussion about tyres goes in the thread mentioned above.

Thank you.

#3005 as65p

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:33

Courtesy of Maverick.....


Permanes statements as well as MS' are so damn transparent I'm surprised a super-intelligent master analyst like you can't see it. :drunk:

Like happened numerous times in the past regarding all kinds of rules, devices, etc., those who haven't (yet) got the hang of it will bitch and squirm shamelessly until... can you guess it?

Oh, and maverick omitted part of Permane's statements, surely an innocent mistake, but I'm glad to help out:

"As long as everyone has the same challenge then you have to say the best drivers and engineers win. I don't think lottery comes into it – because the cars at the front are there for a reason: they are very competitive."



#3006 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:44

Must everything be broken down into its constituent parts, for you to be able to understand? Jesus Christ, man. :rolleyes:

I don't even understand what you're saying there. I do know that you haven't even addressed my point, which probably speaks volumes in itself. My point remains true - the suggestion that tyre performance is so important as to make all other considerations "null and void" s pretty silly, since there is no evidence of it in the race results - differences between drivers are still clearly seen and the cars aren't tyre-limited in the way that you are trying (badly) to suggest.

Please discuss my posts - don't shout and roll eyes at me.

#3007 Lazy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:54

"As long as everyone has the same challenge then you have to say the best drivers and engineers win. I don't think lottery comes into it – because the cars at the front are there for a reason: they are very competitive."


Exactly, and if the TDG can't drive a couple of tenths within himself to keep his tyres fresh then he ain't the TDG. Even Kimi can do it ffs.

#3008 velgajski1

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:15

Exactly, and if the TDG can't drive a couple of tenths within himself to keep his tyres fresh then he ain't the TDG. Even Kimi can do it ffs.


Kimi? Did you watch any other race except Bahrain? :)

#3009 maverick69

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:24

Permanes statements as well as MS' are so damn transparent I'm surprised a super-intelligent master analyst like you can't see it. :drunk:

Like happened numerous times in the past regarding all kinds of rules, devices, etc., those who haven't (yet) got the hang of it will bitch and squirm shamelessly until... can you guess it?

Oh, and maverick omitted part of Permane's statements, surely an innocent mistake, but I'm glad to help out:

"As long as everyone has the same challenge then you have to say the best drivers and engineers win. I don't think lottery comes into it – because the cars at the front are there for a reason: they are very competitive."


:rolleyes:

And you didn't read my full post. I was talking about the short term (as i have repeatedly said). That is clearly a long term, and obvious statement......

#3010 Lazy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:33

Kimi? Did you watch any other race except Bahrain? :)


:)

Yeah well, it only took him 4 races :)

#3011 as65p

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:39

:rolleyes:

And you didn't read my full post. I was talking about the short term (as i have repeatedly said). That is clearly a long term, and obvious statement......


Ah, so that's how you separate the parts that fit your beliefs from those parts that don't. Clever. :up: :)

#3012 fieraku

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:42

Without trouble? How would you describe last year then? Go back and look at the bitching after Button had won two races to Hamiltons zero at the start of the 2010. Also interesting that back then it wasn't the evil tyres that conspired against poor Lewis, but the evil weather. :drunk:

As I said, excuses are never running out.


Yes without trouble,I recall Ham being ahead of JB 80 % of the time including the DNFs.Oh cmon stop playing dumb and drop the kiddy stuff,the Pirellis are fake/artificial,just because I, Ragged and Pretentious(the most outspoken Pirelli haters) have been proven right no need to get all butt hurt. Excuses?pffft :stoned: Did you not hear Kimi say he lost (China) because he was going too fast? Don't you hear tire a billion times Fri/Sat/Sun GP week? It is real!

To the original point which started this debate: Race pace means nothing and judging drivers now is irrelevant when 90% of the "Show" is on conservation mode,and whomever lucks into the ''sweetspot'' is that day's hero.

My mind works different to yours. :)

Duhhhh.

#3013 maverick69

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:45

Ah, so that's how you separate the parts that fit your beliefs from those parts that don't. Clever. :up: :)


What?

#3014 skid solo

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:49

Tyre excuses haven't come as a handy excuse, we've been proven 100% correct, so where does that leave the likes of you et al? I talk about logical failings, but it unsurprisingly flies over your head. Myself, fieraku et al, have been debating this issue Ad nauseam, to be proven right(just to remind you again) while all you are left with is to argue over the periphery. How does that make you feel? This whole "are the tyres fit for purpose/can they be raced on, driven flat out/racing has become a tyre management exercise" debate has been your Matrix moment and you failed the test. You and your fellow cohorts had a choice of pills but you preferred to stay where you are, despite the evidence telling you your world view is not real. Is that the red pill, or blue pill as65p? This issue is going to get bigger and Pirelli will get torn a new-@rsehole for deliberately providing Micky Mouse/substandard racing tyres. Who'd believe such a farcical situation could have arisen, that Hembury and co would produce tyres you actually cant race on, without them crumbling to pieces and laptime dropping like a stone. :drunk:

This is their Gerald Ratner moment without having to say the words, as somebody else so eloquently put it. I believe it will take Buttons, own comments of stating the obvious, for die-hards like you to finally concede. Leaving your position of the last 13 months, totally defunct and I'm looking forward to it.;)


:up:

#3015 fieraku

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:52

Really? How would you describe Bahrain, Malaysia, Turkey, Canada, Valencia, Britain, Germany, Brazil and Abu Dhabi? Anomalies?

Statistically, Button beat Hamilton in Australia, China, Spain, Hungary, Italy, Singapore and Japan. That's 7/19. Two were in variable conditions. In four Hamilton retired, twice from mechanical failure and twice from contact with other cars. Of those four, Hamilton was in front of Button in three at the point of retirement. In the final one (Japan), Hamilton lost third gear and nursed his car to the end, letting Button past in the process.

Button retired in Monaco and Belgium so those results are discounted. However, in both he was behind Hamilton when he retired.

I'm sorry, but from my point of view an analysis of the results is fairly conclusive. Hamilton dominated Button in 2010.

:up: How I recall that season, overall Ham wasn't really troubled.

:blush: Now if I could remember F1 races like I do football matches my arguments would be much better.

#3016 as65p

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:54

Yes without trouble,I recall Ham being ahead of JB 80 % of the time including the DNFs.Oh cmon stop playing dumb and drop the kiddy stuff,the Pirellis are fake/artificial,just because I, Ragged and Pretentious(the most outspoken Pirelli haters) have been proven right no need to get all butt hurt. Excuses?pffft :stoned: Did you not hear Kimi say he lost (China) because he was going too fast? Don't you hear tire a billion times Fri/Sat/Sun GP week? It is real!


Yeah, there is something beside tyre bitching all of you have in common, I trust you can figure it out yourself... :wave:

If you depend on "being proved right", I suggest you only talk to those guys who share your beliefs, because outside that bunch the might be disagreement looming... if you can't deal with that, stay inside!

To the original point which started this debate: Race pace means nothing and judging drivers now is irrelevant when 90% of the "Show" is on conservation mode,and whomever lucks into the ''sweetspot'' is that day's hero.


Bla-bla. Always the same old propaganda, and always for the same reason: "bu-huuu, my driver isn't dominating, it's hurting so much :cry: "

Get over it. The tyres are the same for everyone, the best teams and drivers will figure it out fastest and prevail in the end. As always. Childish bitching isn't gonna accelerate the process, though.



#3017 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:03

I think what has been clear as day and unsettling to many is the way he's been struggling to match others in pace over stints despite being so quick over one lap.

Add to that the team stuff-ups, and it probably wouldn't be fun being either him, or a fan right now.


I'm not baffled in the slightest. It's been discussed in length since he came to F1, that Hamilton's main strength is not is qualifying, but his race pace. Button got put to the sword in 2010 with JB fans excuses ten fold. He struggled with tyre temps, he needs a perfect car, qualifying is a weakness, he doesn't like over steer, he wasn't comfortable in the car etc etc etc. Then from 2011 onwards Hamilton's race pace has disappeared. With retrospective analysis it is clear as to the reasons why and hardly rocket science, why Hamilton struggled post 2010. The evidence is clear. I for one have not harped on with any other excuse except for the tyres. 2010, qualifying pace replicated during the races exactly like 2007 to 2009. Cue 2011 all of a sudden it is gone? Even if one hasn't heard of the concept Ockhams razor, even a modicum of common-sense would come to the same conclusion.

But oh no. :rolleyes: We are led to believe it is the magical improvement in Jensons' race pace, while IGNORING the now universally acknowledged fact, the tyres cannot be pushed, or race hard on, for any sustained period and racing IS a tyre management exercise. But alas the obfuscation, strawman arguments are limitless, when it comes to explaining JB's lack of qualifying pace, but major improvement in race pace. Where was JB's race pace in 2009, when his car was no longer a monster, but merely one of the best cars? He was nowhere. But alas there could be no excuses like he was uncomfortable in the car etc etc. The last 10 races of the season when he had a top 1, 2 and 3 car depending on the circuit. He was just slow. Maybe because in those days, you actually had to put your foot to the floor and drive flat out. A bit like qualifying. :eek:


#3018 robefc

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:18

I'm not baffled in the slightest. It's been discussed in length since he came to F1, that Hamilton's main strength is not is qualifying, but his race pace. Button got put to the sword in 2010 with JB fans excuses ten fold. He struggled with tyre temps, he needs a perfect car, qualifying is a weakness, he doesn't like over steer, he wasn't comfortable in the car etc etc etc. Then from 2011 onwards Hamilton's race pace has disappeared. With retrospective analysis it is clear as to the reasons why and hardly rocket science, why Hamilton struggled post 2010. The evidence is clear. I for one have not harped on with any other excuse except for the tyres. 2010, qualifying pace replicated during the races exactly like 2007 to 2009. Cue 2011 all of a sudden it is gone? Even if one hasn't heard of the concept Ockhams razor, even a modicum of common-sense would come to the same conclusion.

But oh no. :rolleyes: We are led to believe it is the magical improvement in Jensons' race pace, while IGNORING the now universally acknowledged fact, the tyres cannot be pushed, or race hard on, for any sustained period and racing IS a tyre management exercise. But alas the obfuscation, strawman arguments are limitless, when it comes to explaining JB's lack of qualifying pace, but major improvement in race pace. Where was JB's race pace in 2009, when his car was no longer a monster, but merely one of the best cars? He was nowhere. But alas there could be no excuses like he was uncomfortable in the car etc etc. The last 10 races of the season when he had a top 1, 2 and 3 car depending on the circuit. He was just slow. Maybe because in those days, you actually had to put your foot to the floor and drive flat out. A bit like qualifying. :eek:


Did you watch that season? My recollection is he struggled in quali in the second half of the season but his race pace was just fine...maybe a button fan can chime in.

How was his race pace the last time before that he had a decent car with BAR?

Edited by robefc, 27 April 2012 - 11:21.


#3019 Pamphlet

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:19

Did you watch that season? My recollection is he struggled in quali in the second half of the season but his race pace was just fine...maybe a button fan can chime in.


Pretty sure that was the case as well. And the team was basically out of cash and barely held on to whatever they could. People tend to wrongly downplay Jenson's skill and forget about the jarring state that the team was in the closing stages of that year.

Edited by Pamphlet, 27 April 2012 - 11:31.


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#3020 fieraku

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:26

Yeah, there is something beside tyre bitching all of you have in common, I trust you can figure it out yourself... :wave:

If you depend on "being proved right", I suggest you only talk to those guys who share your beliefs, because outside that bunch the might be disagreement looming... if you can't deal with that, stay inside!



Bla-bla. Always the same old propaganda, and always for the same reason: "bu-huuu, my driver isn't dominating, it's hurting so much :cry: "

Get over it. The tyres are the same for everyone, the best teams and drivers will figure it out fastest and prevail in the end. As always. Childish bitching isn't gonna accelerate the process, though.


So nothing on how "race pace" is true when drivers are @70% and tiresaving 90% of the time?

JB vs LH ''race pace'' :wave: remember?

#3021 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:28

All this slagging Button's 2nd half of 2009 is so utterly ignorant of the facts that it is almost not worth responding to. Brawn team had no money, made loads of job loses, were hanging on by a thread. That they competed that season at all was a virtual miracle, and winning the Championship was amazing - especially hanging on in the face of development by the other teams.

But hey - don't let reality get in the way of a good bashing.

Plus this is 2012 thread. So far, Hamilton is ahead, mostly by dint of a mistake by Button.

#3022 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:34

Did you watch that season? My recollection is he struggled in quali in the second half of the season but his race pace was just fine...maybe a button fan can chime in.

How was his race pace the last time before that he had a decent car with BAR?


Once his car was no longer the stand out machine in 2009, Button never won a race. I watched that season and he showed nothing special. He capitalized when the car was good, but was average at best when others had the machinery to challenge him. Look here and look at the results from the last 10 races. 2010 was average as well, then BAM, 2011 he is right up there? :confused: What is the only variable? Do we understand this variable? If the answer is yes to both, how can people claim his race pace has improved?

All this slagging Button's 2nd half of 2009 is so utterly ignorant of the facts that it is almost not worth responding to. Brawn team had no money, made loads of job loses, were hanging on by a thread. That they competed that season at all was a virtual miracle, and winning the Championship was amazing - especially hanging on in the face of development by the other teams.

But hey - don't let reality get in the way of a good bashing.

Plus this is 2012 thread. So far, Hamilton is ahead, mostly by dint of a mistake by Button.


No No No. They never had the money to develop the car to maintain its monster advantage, there is no doubt about that, but it was still a race winning car as Rubens proved in the 2nd half of the season, unless you wish to ignore this blatant fact. Where was Buttons competitiveness? Have a look at his 2010 season. Minus his wet whether wins, he was absolutely nowhere bar a few circuits. The 2011+ tyres, their characteristics, the abuse they can take and the style of driving required and people like you completely ignore these facts and anchor to the position, Jenson is awesome and a has fantastic race pace. On these tyres? Yes, because no racing can take place, bar a tyre management exercise. Just admit this fact and I'll move on.

Edited by The Ragged Edge, 27 April 2012 - 11:44.


#3023 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:42

Are you sure you aren't getting spit on your keyboard?

Why would I admit "no racing can take place" when it blatantly isn't true?

Simple truth: Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton are pretty evenly matched. What's so difficult about that?

#3024 jrg19

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:44

Are you sure you aren't getting spit on your keyboard?

Why would I admit "no racing can take place" when it blatantly isn't true?

Simple truth: Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton are pretty evenly matched. What's so difficult about that?


Pretty even in the sense Lewis is better?

#3025 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:46

Are you sure you aren't getting spit on your keyboard?

Why would I admit "no racing can take place" when it blatantly isn't true?

Simple truth: Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton are pretty evenly matched. What's so difficult about that?



And here is the crux of the matter. :rolleyes: If one side decides to constantly be intellectually dishonest, it is therefore very difficult for reasoned debate to take place.

#3026 Pamphlet

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:46

No No No. They never had the money to develop the car to maintain its advantage, there is no doubt about that, but it was still a race winning car as Rubens proved in the 2nd half of the season, unless you wish to ignore this blatant fact. Where was Button? Have a look at his 2010 season. Minus his wet whether wins, he was absolutely nowhere bar a few circuits. The 2011+ tyres, their characteristics, the abuse they can take and the style of driving required and people like you completely ignore these facts and anchor to the position, Jenson is awesome and a has fantastic race pace. On these tyres? Yes, because no racing can take place, bar a tyre management exercise. Just admit this fact and I'll move on.


Are you seriously assuming that Rubens was better than Jenson for even one half of that season? One win, admittedly, was well deserved, as Jenson dropped back by his own fault, but the other came at a track where not only Red Bull, but a whole slew of other supposedly good cars underperformed. Case in point - Kimi came third and freaking Sutil was 4th. Button himself held his ground against the oh-so-beloved Hamilton, and the latter paid the price by crashing out.

That makes it two wins to Jenson's 6. Sure, Brawn was damn strong early on, and I'd understand it if Rubens was unlucky once or twice, but 6 times? Hell, 7 if you count Vettel's win.

Edited by Pamphlet, 27 April 2012 - 12:12.


#3027 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:01

And here is the crux of the matter. :rolleyes: If one side decides to constantly be intellectually dishonest, it is therefore very difficult for reasoned debate to take place.

The dishonesty is not coming from me. I've already said that I don't believe the tyres are levelling the cars to the degree that you suggest, and I have explained why I think that - if they were there would be a lot more cars of the same make finishing directly behind each other. If you want to be so dishonest as to not address that point then fine.

There is no need for you to do the rolleyes, which I find to be very rude. Why don't you just address the point, rather than attempting to insult the poster?

#3028 BillBald

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:08

Once his car was no longer the stand out machine in 2009, Button never won a race. I watched that season and he showed nothing special. He capitalized when the car was good, but was average at best when others had the machinery to challenge him. Look here and look at the results from the last 10 races. 2010 was average as well, then BAM, 2011 he is right up there? :confused: What is the only variable? Do we understand this variable? If the answer is yes to both, how can people claim his race pace has improved?



No No No. They never had the money to develop the car to maintain its monster advantage, there is no doubt about that, but it was still a race winning car as Rubens proved in the 2nd half of the season, unless you wish to ignore this blatant fact. Where was Buttons competitiveness? Have a look at his 2010 season. Minus his wet whether wins, he was absolutely nowhere bar a few circuits. The 2011+ tyres, their characteristics, the abuse they can take and the style of driving required and people like you completely ignore these facts and anchor to the position, Jenson is awesome and a has fantastic race pace. On these tyres? Yes, because no racing can take place, bar a tyre management exercise. Just admit this fact and I'll move on.


In the case of the 2 races which Rubens won:
Jenson qualified just behind Rubens in both cases. At Monza the difference was about one thousandth of a second.
Monza - Jenson finished the race right behind Rubens.
Valencia - Jenson allowed himself to be intimidated by Vettel's move at the start, and fell back into the pack, on a track where you couldn't overtake.

If you can name a race in 2009 where Rubens had better race pace than Jenson, when both were running in clean air, I'd be interested to hear about it.






#3029 jjcale

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:16

So nothing on how "race pace" is true when drivers are @70% and tiresaving 90% of the time?

JB vs LH ''race pace'' :wave: remember?


Actually, I've been saying since 2010 that using lap time comparisons to judge race pace is no longer useful since drivers are limited by tyres and fuel and very rarely do their true pace.

It is very difficult to judge race pace now. It might actually be impossible.

Drivers are not separated or equalised by pace anymore... other factors outside the sole control of the drivers are more determinative IMO.

#3030 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:18

Yet more Twighlight Zone stuff. What's wrong with judging "race pace" by seeing who gets to end of the race first?

#3031 Lights

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:21

Once his car was no longer the stand out machine in 2009, Button never won a race. I watched that season and he showed nothing special. He capitalized when the car was good, but was average at best when others had the machinery to challenge him. Look here and look at the results from the last 10 races. 2010 was average as well, then BAM, 2011 he is right up there? :confused: What is the only variable? Do we understand this variable? If the answer is yes to both, how can people claim his race pace has improved?

No No No. They never had the money to develop the car to maintain its monster advantage, there is no doubt about that, but it was still a race winning car as Rubens proved in the 2nd half of the season, unless you wish to ignore this blatant fact. Where was Buttons competitiveness? Have a look at his 2010 season. Minus his wet whether wins, he was absolutely nowhere bar a few circuits. The 2011+ tyres, their characteristics, the abuse they can take and the style of driving required and people like you completely ignore these facts and anchor to the position, Jenson is awesome and a has fantastic race pace. On these tyres? Yes, because no racing can take place, bar a tyre management exercise. Just admit this fact and I'll move on.

Simply put, you're not able to objectively judge Button's 2009 season, and your overly aggressive tone and horrible overstatements don't change that. Plus this is not the thread to do so either. If you want to discuss his 2009 season, find his thread. If you want to bitch about the Pirelli tyres, there's a thread for that as well. If you want to discuss how Jenson and Lewis have fared so far this season in Formula 1 with it's current rules and regulations, please stay. My advice, take option 2.

#3032 jjcale

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:21

Yet more Twighlight Zone stuff. What's wrong with judging "race pace" by seeing who gets to end of the race first?


Where they started matters...so does strategy... so does fuel... so does traffic...

I started out thinking this but I dont think that distance/time is enough... not over the course of one race... maybe if a consistent pattern starts to develop over a number of races - but not over a single race.

#3033 fieraku

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:26

Are you sure you aren't getting spit on your keyboard?

Why would I admit "no racing can take place" when it blatantly isn't true?

Simple truth: Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton are pretty evenly matched. What's so difficult about that?

Undoubtedly! But then you have to account Ham out qualifying JB at a 70% rate,which is very lopsided.If it means anything in the Formula Delta.

#3034 fieraku

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:28

Actually, I've been saying since 2010 that using lap time comparisons to judge race pace is no longer useful since drivers are limited by tyres and fuel and very rarely do their true pace.

It is very difficult to judge race pace now. It might actually be impossible.

Drivers are not separated or equalised by pace anymore... other factors outside the sole control of the drivers are more determinative IMO.

:up:

Yes JJ you've been spot on.

#3035 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:30

Undoubtedly! But then you have to account Ham out qualifying JB at a 70% rate,which is very lopsided.If it means anything in the Formula Delta.

I agree that Hamilton is a brilliant qualifier - probably the current best. I just don't agree that it counts for so much - points on Sunday etc.

A great F1 driver is a balance of lots of attributes, and the two of them come out more or less even when all those attributes are taken into account (despite having quite different strengths and weaknesses) - that's my view on it anyway.

#3036 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:31

Where they started matters...so does strategy... so does fuel... so does traffic...

I started out thinking this but I dont think that distance/time is enough... not over the course of one race... maybe if a consistent pattern starts to develop over a number of races - but not over a single race.

Clearly one race is not a big enough sample. Obviously.

Trouble is, some people on here seem to think that two full seasons plus four races isn't a big enough sample!

#3037 jjcale

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:32

Yet more Twighlight Zone stuff. What's wrong with judging "race pace" by seeing who gets to end of the race first?


We also have a terminology problem.

Some of us see "race pace" as the ability to "push" for lap after lap without errors ... others see it as the result of making use of all that is at a drivers disposal within limits imposed by tyres, fuel etc.

LH is IMO clearly superior at the former but arguably JB is better at the latter... particularly when tyres becomes the main limiting factor.

I think this is the real cause of the argument. If so, I am not sure that there is a genuine dispute over just a dispute or terminology.

Edited by jjcale, 27 April 2012 - 12:32.


#3038 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:35

We also have a terminology problem.

Some of us see "race pace" as the ability to "push" for lap after lap without errors ... others see it as the result of making use of all that is at a drivers disposal within limits imposed by tyres, fuel etc.

LH is IMO clearly superior at the former but arguably JB is better at the latter... particularly when tyres becomes the main limiting factor.

I think this is the real cause of the argument. If so, I am not sure that there is a genuine dispute over just a dispute or terminology.

Superior at the former? When the former includes "without errors"? If you exclude as many errors as possible by blaming someone else, then yea.

Edit: How can race pace be anything other than pace in racing conditions? Including fuel, traffic, strategy, tyres etc.

Edited by GlenP, 27 April 2012 - 12:36.


#3039 Dunder

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:36

And here is the crux of the matter. :rolleyes: If one side decides to constantly be intellectually dishonest, it is therefore very difficult for reasoned debate to take place.


Head to head in races in 2011

Vettel 16-3 Webber
Alonso 16-3 Massa
Button 10-9 Hamilton

If we are seeking to be "intellectually honest" then we surely have to be looking at the wider picture and explain how the picture you are describing did not afflict the faster drivers in the other leading teams in the same way as it did between Lewis and Jenson.

Throwing phrases like "fake racing" is easy and whilst there is no question that stints in races are more tyre limited now that they have been in any time since I have been watching F1, actual results in 2011 suggest that there was still plenty of scope for the 'cream to rise to the top'. The nature of the racing did change between 2010 and 2011 due to the much changed degradation characteristics of the tyres but other things changed too. Notably the Pirellis were very weak reared (more suitable for a driver who prefers understeer) whereas the Bridgestones were the opposite.

I dare say that Vettel and Alonso are not the type of drivers who naturally enjoy the preservation aspect of the current formula. they did, however manage to adapt and beat their team mate more convincingly than they did the previous year. Why would that be if outright pace did not matter?

The, apparently, narrowed optimal temperature window of the 2012 tyres is an added variable that I do not like and should not be a feature of a control tyre.

Edited by Dunder, 27 April 2012 - 12:42.


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#3040 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:38

Thanks for expressing the point a bit more fully Dunder. Precisely what I was saying.

#3041 jjcale

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:41

Superior at the former? When the former includes "without errors"? If you exclude as many errors as possible by blaming someone else, then yea.

Edit: How can race pace be anything other than pace in racing conditions? Including fuel, traffic, strategy, tyres etc.


I think you will find a good number of people who dont share that view...

Eg Trulli had terrible race pace versus his quali pace... but he was not usually limited by "fuel, traffic, strategy, tyres" ... he just sucked at pushing for lap after lap... not all of them are equally good at it.

You have to remember that this is the key skill that marked out top drivers in the refuelling era. and this is the era that informs the views of most of us as to what skillset an F1 driver should possess.

Edited by jjcale, 27 April 2012 - 12:48.


#3042 zack1994

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:47

Once his car was no longer the stand out machine in 2009, Button never won a race. I watched that season and he showed nothing special. He capitalized when the car was good, but was average at best when others had the machinery to challenge him. Look here and look at the results from the last 10 races. 2010 was average as well, then BAM, 2011 he is right up there? :confused: What is the only variable? Do we understand this variable? If the answer is yes to both, how can people claim his race pace has improved?



No No No. They never had the money to develop the car to maintain its monster advantage, there is no doubt about that, but it was still a race winning car as Rubens proved in the 2nd half of the season, unless you wish to ignore this blatant fact. Where was Buttons competitiveness? Have a look at his 2010 season. Minus his wet whether wins, he was absolutely nowhere bar a few circuits. The 2011+ tyres, their characteristics, the abuse they can take and the style of driving required and people like you completely ignore these facts and anchor to the position, Jenson is awesome and a has fantastic race pace. On these tyres? Yes, because no racing can take place, bar a tyre management exercise. Just admit this fact and I'll move on.

2nd half of 2009 was difficult because of balance problems mainly in quali therefore hurting his races.


#3043 GlenP

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:49

I think you will find a good number of people who dont share that view...

Eg Trulli had terrible race pace versus his quali pace... but he was not usually limited by "fuel, traffic, strategy, tyres" ... he just sucked at pushing for lap after lap... not all of them are equally good at it.

OK. Each to their own. I don't get the point of saying "if it weren't for this, that or the other he would have been fastest" - if this that or the other are normal race factors.

Lots of people seem to think that Hamilton can hold that quali pace indefinitely (if the tyres would hold up, he had enough fuel etc) despite ample evidence to the contrary. Go too close to the edge and mistakes happen - this is part of a racer's judgement. I can't see the value in assessing a driver's speed separately from their judgement.

#3044 Lazy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:51

I'm not baffled in the slightest. It's been discussed in length since he came to F1, that Hamilton's main strength is not is qualifying, but his race pace. Button got put to the sword in 2010 with JB fans excuses ten fold. He struggled with tyre temps, he needs a perfect car, qualifying is a weakness, he doesn't like over steer, he wasn't comfortable in the car etc etc etc. Then from 2011 onwards Hamilton's race pace has disappeared. With retrospective analysis it is clear as to the reasons why and hardly rocket science, why Hamilton struggled post 2010. The evidence is clear. I for one have not harped on with any other excuse except for the tyres. 2010, qualifying pace replicated during the races exactly like 2007 to 2009. Cue 2011 all of a sudden it is gone? Even if one hasn't heard of the concept Ockhams razor, even a modicum of common-sense would come to the same conclusion.

But oh no. :rolleyes: We are led to believe it is the magical improvement in Jensons' race pace, while IGNORING the now universally acknowledged fact, the tyres cannot be pushed, or race hard on, for any sustained period and racing IS a tyre management exercise. But alas the obfuscation, strawman arguments are limitless, when it comes to explaining JB's lack of qualifying pace, but major improvement in race pace. Where was JB's race pace in 2009, when his car was no longer a monster, but merely one of the best cars? He was nowhere. But alas there could be no excuses like he was uncomfortable in the car etc etc. The last 10 races of the season when he had a top 1, 2 and 3 car depending on the circuit. He was just slow. Maybe because in those days, you actually had to put your foot to the floor and drive flat out. A bit like qualifying. :eek:


Ok, so no excuses:

Lewis put Jenson to the sword by beating him by 26 pts in 2010.

ergo:

Jenson totally thrashed Lewis by a massive 43 points in 2011.

#3045 fieraku

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:53

I agree that Hamilton is a brilliant qualifier - probably the current best. I just don't agree that it counts for so much - points on Sunday etc.

A great F1 driver is a balance of lots of attributes, and the two of them come out more or less even when all those attributes are taken into account (despite having quite different strengths and weaknesses) - that's my view on it anyway.


It did until 2010,then F1 fundamentally changed as we know it.

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#3046 jjcale

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:02

OK. Each to their own. I don't get the point of saying "if it weren't for this, that or the other he would have been fastest" - if this that or the other are normal race factors.

Lots of people seem to think that Hamilton can hold that quali pace indefinitely (if the tyres would hold up, he had enough fuel etc) despite ample evidence to the contrary. Go too close to the edge and mistakes happen - this is part of a racer's judgement. I can't see the value in assessing a driver's speed separately from their judgement.


What we had in LH before 2010 (and even up to Monza of that year) was a guy who seemed to be able to drive at the edge whilst making fewer errors than the people around him. I seem to remember he had amazing stats for errors up to that point (and the same Macca team members that are ambivalent about keeping him used to call him the Terminator because he was so robot like in terms of constently delivering on the track) ... we are now being robbed of seeing what might have been but for the end of refuelling and some of that frustration comes out in the posts of LH fans (and I suspect in LH's driving from time to time since 2010).

I accept that JB is very much on par with LH (in fact if anything he is slightly better) under the current circumstances, I just happen to think that LH is the faster driver on the definition of race pace that I hold to.... BTW the reason why he is on par or a bit better is not down to errors (driver or team) or being cleverer (except possibly in a very general sense) it is because his driving style happens to be easier on the tyres. That's it. End of. That the tyres dominate to such an extent that faster guy is liable to get beaten for no other reason then its gone too for.

OK ... I am now repeating parts of the first post I made today. So that it from me.

#3047 Dunder

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:04

It did until 2010,then F1 fundamentally changed as we know it.


Races won from pole position

2009 - 9 (52.9%) qualifying with race fuel.
2010 - 8 (42.1%)
2011 - 9 (47.4%)
2012 - 2 (50.0%) to date

No signs of a trend there. Indeed if you go deeper and look at all quali positions there is still no significant change in terms of correlation between starting position and finishing positons.

#3048 robefc

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:04

OK. Each to their own. I don't get the point of saying "if it weren't for this, that or the other he would have been fastest" - if this that or the other are normal race factors.

Lots of people seem to think that Hamilton can hold that quali pace indefinitely (if the tyres would hold up, he had enough fuel etc) despite ample evidence to the contrary. Go too close to the edge and mistakes happen - this is part of a racer's judgement. I can't see the value in assessing a driver's speed separately from their judgement.


Lewis's mistakes don't generally have anything to do with holding his pace too close to the edge though do they? Monza 09 apart.

#3049 Watkins74

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:09

Races won from pole position

2009 - 9 (52.9%) qualifying with race fuel.
2010 - 8 (42.1%)
2011 - 9 (47.4%)
2012 - 2 (50.0%) to date

No signs of a trend there. Indeed if you go deeper and look at all quali positions there is still no significant change in terms of correlation between starting position and finishing positons.

:up:
This whole "Qualifying doesn't matter" is a myth.

#3050 Lazy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:09

Lewis's mistakes don't generally have anything to do with holding his pace too close to the edge though do they? Monza 09 apart.


I dunno, he does have a lot of lock ups and minor offs.