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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#3101 WitnessX

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 06:59

Found this snippet in an issue of Autosport from early 2011:

JB - "there will be degradation on the soft tyre and you have to look after it, but there always has to be a balance. I think with Pirelli we have a tyre that maybe suits me more than the previous tyre we had."

So please, enough of the denial about these tyres suiting JB. At the same time as he was saying this, Hamilton was saying:

"Last year we had to make tyres last with a heavier fuel load, and now it's even slower. I did a run the other day and it was painfully slow. It's just not exciting to be honest."

So again, enough of the 'Hamilton never complained about the tyres, it's all in your head' misinformation as well.

Early 2011?..
To put it into context, the quote from Lewis came as a result of pre-season testing (around March 7), before the car was improved.

...by June 2011 FOTA:
http://www.teamsasso.....June 2011.pdf
LH: I love the new tyres, I think Pirelli have some an amazing job. I wasn‟t really sure if they were going to be any good because Bridgestone had been in F1 for so long and had so much experience. But Pirelli have come in and straight away they‟ve lived up to people‟s expectations, which is pretty impressive. ..

However what's also interesting is "Last year we had to make tyres last with a heavier fuel load, and now it's even slower." - implies that in 2010 with the Bridgestones they had the tyre management exercise element.

Edited by WitnessX, 28 April 2012 - 07:00.


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#3102 as65p

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 07:28

However what's also interesting is "Last year we had to make tyres last with a heavier fuel load, and now it's even slower." - implies that in 2010 with the Bridgestones they had the tyre management exercise element.


Of course there was. Can't believe people now seem think the Bridgestones were everlasting without any wear or degradation. :drunk: The Bridgestone years becoming a complete myth by now.

And to think that there where heated discussions around 2008/09 about one particular driver abusing the Bridgestones frequently, at Turkey once having to compromise his whole race strategy, because those allegedly indestructable Bridgestones wouldn't last on his car as on all the others. :eek:

#3103 D.M.N.

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:15

Can we keep the discussion about tyres here: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=155428

This discussion is primarily about the relative performances of Button and Hamilton in 2012. Obviously you can mention tyres here, but full blown discussion about tyres goes in the thread mentioned above.

Thank you.


May I remind users about the post I made in this thread yesterday. Off-topic posts will be removed.

#3104 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 13:58

Yeah, he's also said that we are having fantastic racing. Degradation of various aspects of the car has always been an aspect of F1, good drivers can go fast and look after their car.

This tyre story is just the latest in a long list of excuses to explain why the TDG isn't winning everything.


Going round in circles with you folk. We all know degradation has always been a factor, we know F1 cars and tyres were never made out of indestructible titanium, but degradation was just as you said, an aspect, an element, a factor not the be all and end all of how you approach a race. How people are still having trouble differentiating between these two and at least acknowledging that the game has changed is beyond me. It's standing there, stark bollock naked in front of us all now and STILL it's not being recognised. This issue is of fundamental importance in how you assess each driver's performance.

#3105 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 15:09

Actually I think both terms are exaggerated which is why I put them in quotation marks. Button wasn't dominated in 2010 but he was beaten! The problem for Hamilton was that he was expected to dominate and didn't.

I see this word thrown around a lot here,but can you quantify it? What exactly is ''domination'' to you? Point difference,races,qualy what?
Is there an universal definition for it or everyone has their own version?


An example: There are two runners who race 10k races.One of them finishes ahead of the other 7 out of 10 times when there are no injuries,falls etc taken into account.

Is that domination or not?Looking at the races/qualis alone I'd say that Button was dominated,the points though hide that notion nicely.

I think Hamilton never worried about JB up until he saw he was about to lose for the first time,when reality struck,as he was so occupied with the title dreams and beating SV.

2012 Ham is a different (tamed) animal and isn't taking anything for granted including JB,who surprisingly every race no matter his position seems extra interested where Lewis is and what's he doing,reading the race radio chatter on Mac's homepage.
This could be their last year as teammates and I'm sure Ham will concentrate 100% on beating his teammate regardless of whether the title chase is on or not.

#3106 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 15:24

I see this word thrown around a lot here,but can you quantify it? What exactly is ''domination'' to you? Point difference,races,qualy what?
Is there an universal definition for it or everyone has their own version?


An example: There are two runners who race 10k races.One of them finishes ahead of the other 7 out of 10 times when there are no injuries,falls etc taken into account.

Is that domination or not?Looking at the races/qualis alone I'd say that Button was dominated,the points though hide that notion nicely.

I think Hamilton never worried about JB up until he saw he was about to lose for the first time,when reality struck,as he was so occupied with the title dreams and beating SV.

2012 Ham is a different (tamed) animal and isn't taking anything for granted including JB,who surprisingly every race no matter his position seems extra interested where Lewis is and what's he doing,reading the race radio chatter on Mac's homepage.
This could be their last year as teammates and I'm sure Ham will concentrate 100% on beating his teammate regardless of whether the title chase is on or not.



Careful fieraku, if you use this as your criteria then Alonso 'dominated' Hamilton in 2007!

#3107 Kvothe

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 16:04

Careful fieraku, if you use this as your criteria then Alonso 'dominated' Hamilton in 2007!


Not that I agree with fieraku but only if you cherry pick his statement:

One of them finishes ahead of the other 7 out of 10 times when there are no injuries,falls etc taken into account.


You'll notice I included the part you left unbolded which dramatically changes the criteria

Alonso was gift wrapped Turkey, and China imo.

#3108 bub

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 16:22

Looks like another good battle this year between them. Hope luck doesn't interfere too much so we can see a clear representation.

#3109 mlsnoopy

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 16:38

Looks like another good battle this year between them. Hope luck doesn't interfere too much so we can see a clear representation.


Good battle?
4 races 4 screw up by the team for Hamilton. Yup, a realy good battle.

#3110 bub

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 16:45

Well that's why I wrote the second sentence.
The point totals so far and overall pace are quite close.
I seem to remember Button havin pit stop problems at 1 of the races and his car broke down in the last one.

#3111 Grundle

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:11

When will button outqualify hamilton this year?
my guess is hockenheim.
when will Mclaren give lewis a mistake free race?
when they concentrate on their best driver, and stop pandering to button, a sly fox who will try anything to gain an advantage whilst masquerading as a team player. Button has already siphoned the best engineers to his side of the garage, it wont be enough this year though.

#3112 Lazy

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:27

When will button outqualify hamilton this year?
my guess is hockenheim.
when will Mclaren give lewis a mistake free race?
when they concentrate on their best driver, and stop pandering to button, a sly fox who will try anything to gain an advantage whilst masquerading as a team player. Button has already siphoned the best engineers to his side of the garage, it wont be enough this year though.


How did he do that?

#3113 TallyHo

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:31

How did he do that?

duh, he used a garden hose silly.

#3114 Grundle

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:33

Another thing , lewis says he should drive at mugello,
team say no. Show your best driver some respect Mclaren, I cant see ferrari undermining alonso like that.
whitmarsh should understand asap that lewis drives the team forwards, button drives himself forwards. See silverstone 10 for proof, see turkey 10 for proof. See race readouts where button is thinking bout lewis, lewis is thinking about other cars.

#3115 TallyHo

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:35

When will button outqualify hamilton this year?

When will Hamilton win a race this year?

He's started from the front row 3 times now and his best finish is 3rd. After all, many Hamilton fans were telling us last year how anyone could win from pole :lol:

#3116 as65p

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:46

Going round in circles with you folk. We all know degradation has always been a factor, we know F1 cars and tyres were never made out of indestructible titanium, but degradation was just as you said, an aspect, an element, a factor not the be all and end all of how you approach a race. How people are still having trouble differentiating between these two and at least acknowledging that the game has changed is beyond me. It's standing there, stark bollock naked in front of us all now and STILL it's not being recognised. This issue is of fundamental importance in how you assess each driver's performance.


The issue is that that's precisely wrong. The pecking order among drivers across the grid has not changed significantly due to Pirellis. Which points to them being much less of a factor than the disappointed fans of one driver who can't live up to his fans lofty expectations would like us to believe.

#3117 PNSD

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:50

Button has already siphoned the best engineers to his side of the garage, it wont be enough this year though.


Ah and we have Mr Whitmarsh himself. Or if not MW, then clearly somebody within the team who has every employee's record on file, their contributions to the team, and how each one has benefited the team. Oh wait, no... We just have another kid Lewis fan living in a fantasy world. Say, how them unicorn's getting along? We don't see much of them in the real world, but in Lewis Land I imagine they are pretty common?

#3118 Lazy

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:52

Another thing , lewis says he should drive at mugello,
team say no. Show your best driver some respect Mclaren, I cant see ferrari undermining alonso like that.
whitmarsh should understand asap that lewis drives the team forwards, button drives himself forwards. See silverstone 10 for proof, see turkey 10 for proof. See race readouts where button is thinking bout lewis, lewis is thinking about other cars.


Yeah, Lewis never bitches about the team in public for example or over the radio, or storms off to try to get a drive with another team in the middle of a race weekend. Yeah, Lewis is a real team player.

#3119 Grundle

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:53

When will Hamilton win a race this year?

He's started from the front row 3 times now and his best finish is 3rd. After all, many Hamilton fans were telling us last year how anyone could win from pole :lol:

Unfortuately you fail to realise lewis would already have at least one win, with 'button like' attention from Mclaren that is. Do you want me to list all the screw ups Mclaren have wrought on lewis? yet still ahead of button..

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#3120 PNSD

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:55

The issue is that that's precisely wrong. The pecking order among drivers across the grid has not changed significantly due to Pirellis. Which points to them being much less of a factor than the disappointed fans of one driver who can't live up to his fans lofty expectations would like us to believe.


Well said.

Has there been a driver who has noticeably gained or lost due to the tyres? Not that I see.

Alonso is still king, and Vettel is still epically quick. Lewis has not lost his aggression and has proved to be one of the quickest still whilst Button's knack of staying out of trouble and being an awesome race driver have kept him in respectable positions.

All of these facts were known BEFORE Pirelli and yet are still evident today.

#3121 WitnessX

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 18:25

Going round in circles with you folk. We all know degradation has always been a factor, we know F1 cars and tyres were never made out of indestructible titanium, but degradation was just as you said, an aspect, an element, a factor not the be all and end all of how you approach a race. How people are still having trouble differentiating between these two and at least acknowledging that the game has changed is beyond me. It's standing there, stark bollock naked in front of us all now and STILL it's not being recognised. This issue is of fundamental importance in how you assess each driver's performance.

I assure you I and I believe most of the other posters are well aware of the "situation", which is why we may mistake an intended "educational" to a "yet another tyre excuse" post.

However, The "situation" is part of Formula 1 motor-racing, 2012, by definition whether I or anybody else likes it or not. All teams and drivers must deal and get the best out of it.

Most posters I see have accepted the situation (that does not mean they like or dislike it) and are enjoying (presumably?!) participation in the discussion of the races and the relative performance of the drivers.

If you don't like the situation, AFAIK nobody is forcing you to watch the sport or participate in the discussions. If one does not like the situation there are the appropriate threads where I am sure one will be most welcome.

IIRC the driver vs. driver threads are limited in this forum are limited to intra-team rivalry within the same year, otherwise there is no solid basis to compare drivers performance and it turns into a pure fantasy festival. As an extension of that it does not make sense to do fantasy compensations for different regulations or years.

Edited by WitnessX, 28 April 2012 - 18:26.


#3122 pinkypants

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 18:30

Well said.

Has there been a driver who has noticeably gained or lost due to the tyres? Not that I see.

Alonso is still king, and Vettel is still epically quick. Lewis has not lost his aggression and has proved to be one of the quickest still whilst Button's knack of staying out of trouble and being an awesome race driver have kept him in respectable positions.

All of these facts were known BEFORE Pirelli and yet are still evident today.


:up:

Still don't like the tyres.. I prefer full on flat out fastest laps on durable tyres but that's just me :)

#3123 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 18:41

Careful fieraku, if you use this as your criteria then Alonso 'dominated' Hamilton in 2007!


Did you miss the rest of the post? :stoned: It all goes together,and you still didn't answer my question,only then I can answer you as I have no clue where you stand on the matter.I told you my criteria and Alonso doesn't make it since Ham beat him in Quali, and showed plenty he was a match for him raceday throughout the season .

LH had JB covered in both in 2010 and plenty were wondering whether JB would ever beat LH in DRY/NORMAL race,something LH did plenty vs FA.

So my criteria is fine.

#3124 fieraku

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 18:51

When will Hamilton win a race this year?

He's started from the front row 3 times now and his best finish is 3rd. After all, many Hamilton fans were telling us last year how anyone could win from pole :lol:


If you watched the races you will see that Lewis himself has lost 1position on track all season long (to RoGro in Bahrain)

....so[sarcastic :lol: ]......how does an F1 driver win when his team keep losing him positions on track and keep putting him further back the grid?
Have you ever swam against the stream?It's the same concept,no matter how good a swimmer you are the laws of physics are what the are.Same goes for LH.

#3125 MP422

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 19:09

If you watched the races you will see that Lewis himself has lost 1position on track all season long (to RoGro in Bahrain)

....so[sarcastic :lol: ]......how does an F1 driver win when his team keep losing him positions on track and keep putting him further back the grid?
Have you ever swam against the stream?It's the same concept,no matter how good a swimmer you are the laws of physics are what the are.Same goes for LH.



Amen to that bro !

#3126 tifosiMac

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:03

When will Hamilton win a race this year?

He's started from the front row 3 times now and his best finish is 3rd. After all, many Hamilton fans were telling us last year how anyone could win from pole :lol:

A bit of advice, you're discussing this topic with people here who have actually seen the races, not just plucked the results off wikipedia..  ;)

#3127 TallyHo

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:11

Unfortuately you fail to realise lewis would already have at least one win, with 'button like' attention from Mclaren that is. Do you want me to list all the screw ups Mclaren have wrought on lewis? yet still ahead of button..

Yes if not for incompetent McLaren Lewis would have won all 4 races :lol:

Being 6 points ahead of a team mate who's only scored points in 2 of the first 4 races is nothing to brag about.

#3128 TheBunk

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:17

duh, he used a garden hose silly.



:rotfl: :rotfl: :up:

This thread is one of the most entertaining on the board. :)

#3129 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:18

Yes if not for incompetent McLaren Lewis would have won all 4 races :lol:

Being 6 points ahead of a team mate who's only scored points in 2 of the first 4 races is nothing to brag about.


Neither is it anything to brag about being 6 points behind the guy who has nothing to brag about.

#3130 tifosiMac

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:19

Yes if not for incompetent McLaren Lewis would have won all 4 races :lol:

Being 6 points ahead of a team mate who's only scored points in 2 of the first 4 races is nothing to brag about.

I wasn't aware Lewis was bragging. The season is very young yet and Lewis has surely had more than his fair share of bad luck amongst some very mature drives. Lewis is hardly driving badly is he, or do you think different?

#3131 TallyHo

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:24

I wasn't aware Lewis was bragging. The season is very young yet and Lewis has surely had more than his fair share of bad luck amongst some very mature drives. Lewis is hardly driving badly is he, or do you think different?

Errr i suggest you read the post i was replying too :up:

#3132 tifosiMac

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:27

Errr i suggest you read the post i was replying too :up:

Err I did and I think its reasonable to suggest Lewis would have considerably more points had unfortunate pit stops and poor strategy calls not ruined some of his races. I'm not saying its a definate he would have won every race but its reasonable on viewing each circumstance that he would have stood a better chance.

#3133 TallyHo

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:01

Err I did and I think its reasonable to suggest Lewis would have considerably more points had unfortunate pit stops and poor strategy calls not ruined some of his races. I'm not saying its a definate he would have won every race but its reasonable on viewing each circumstance that he would have stood a better chance.

Button would also have considerably more points if not for mechanical issues, botched pitstops. Plus an un-Button like brain fart, but i'm afraid that's just racing.

Out of interest, which races in your opinion could Hamilton have won on pure race pace alone and no botched pitstops?

Here's my opinion.

Melbourne - I doubt it, considering Button just had superior pace on that particular weekend, as Vettel said he was untouchable. Ham might have grabbed 2nd, but McLaren didn't have Mystic Meg present to predict the safety car.

Malaysia - Didn't even put a dent on Perez and Alonso's lead, they were very quick in those conditions so even if he had top notch pitstops, 3rd was the best he could achieve.

China - Unfortunate Gearbox penalty, but that's racing, not really an error by McLaren as such.

Bahrain - IMHO the best he could have achieved was 5th considering the poor race pace of both Macs and the way they were eating through their rear tyres.

Edited by TallyHo, 28 April 2012 - 21:03.


#3134 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:19

Button would also have considerably more points if not for mechanical issues, botched pitstops. Plus an un-Button like brain fart, but i'm afraid that's just racing.

Out of interest, which races in your opinion could Hamilton have won on pure race pace alone and no botched pitstops?

Here's my opinion.

Melbourne - I doubt it, considering Button just had superior pace on that particular weekend, as Vettel said he was untouchable. Ham might have grabbed 2nd, but McLaren didn't have Mystic Meg present to predict the safety car.

Malaysia - Didn't even put a dent on Perez and Alonso's lead, they were very quick in those conditions so even if he had top notch pitstops, 3rd was the best he could achieve.

China - Unfortunate Gearbox penalty, but that's racing, not really an error by McLaren as such.

Bahrain - IMHO the best he could have achieved was 5th considering the poor race pace of both Macs and the way they were eating through their rear tyres.


Drink some Kool-aid and search a few pages back, there are posts that claim Hamilton would have won all opening 3 races and finished 4th in Bahrain if it wasn't for McLaren messing his races up. (Aus was the clutch, Malaysia was a mysterious setup change, China was gearbox and pitstop, Bahrain was pitstops were the explanations as far as I recall)

#3135 Grundle

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:31

Jenson must address his issues. Hamilton has fixed his tyre problems, button hasnt sorted his. In china the poor guy said he cant get heat in the tyres no matter what he tries. This is his problem, adapting. The degrading tyres suit his driving style in general, yet he still finds himself in situations where he cant adapt to the conditions. The intermediate tyre also, button cant adapt to it. Unbalanced car, cant adapt well to it. Jb will prob lose to lh cos there will b too many 'excuses' weekends.

#3136 engel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:34

Hamilton has fixed his tyre problems, button hasnt sorted his.


Contrary to TallyHo you don't need to drink any Kool-Aid, you are obviously swimming in the stuff.

#3137 Grundle

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:41

Contrary to TallyHo you don't need to drink any Kool-Aid, you are obviously swimming in the stuff.

I was refering to the way lewis isnt getting into malaysia 11 situations this year, whereas button still struggles in cool temps particularly in q

#3138 Fox1

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 22:55

I was refering to the way lewis isnt getting into malaysia 11 situations this year, whereas button still struggles in cool temps particularly in q

+1
It’s funny to see how some are overlooking JB struggle with tyre deg. He was great in Melbourne but struggled more than Lewis in Malaysia and even more in Bahrain. There was nothing between them at Shanghai, but the result was masked because of Lewis’ grid penalty. I have to say that JB is becoming “massively” overrated. If the car or tyres are out of the optimum operating zone JB struggles more than Lewis. Given what we’ve seen thus far with these (crap) Pirellis, I honestly don’t see why JB supporters are beating their chests with confidence when his race pace has been weaker than Lewis’ more often than not this year...yes I said race pace. When you have freakish conditions like Germany last year, Jenson falls off the map.

Had to be said.

#3139 Pamphlet

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:20

+1
It’s funny to see how some are overlooking JB struggle with tyre deg. He was great in Melbourne but struggled more than Lewis in Malaysia and even more in Bahrain. There was nothing between them at Shanghai, but the result was masked because of Lewis’ grid penalty. I have to say that JB is becoming “massively” overrated. If the car or tyres are out of the optimum operating zone JB struggles more than Lewis. Given what we’ve seen thus far with these (crap) Pirellis, I honestly don’t see why JB supporters are beating their chests with confidence when his race pace has been weaker than Lewis’ more often than not this year...yes I said race pace. When you have freakish conditions like Germany last year, Jenson falls off the map.

Had to be said.


More often than not? He destroyed Lewis in Australia and China and his pace was on par with Perez' in Malaysia, despite his tyre problems. Bahrain is the only time where Jenson was legitimately slower.

Edited by Pamphlet, 28 April 2012 - 23:20.


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#3140 Dunder

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:39

More often than not? He destroyed Lewis in Australia and China and his pace was on par with Perez' in Malaysia, despite his tyre problems. Bahrain is the only time where Jenson was legitimately slower.


Button stopped on lap 24 for an additional set of intermediates compared to the leaders.

Edited by Dunder, 28 April 2012 - 23:55.


#3141 Juggles

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:42

More often than not? He destroyed Lewis in Australia and China and his pace was on par with Perez' in Malaysia, despite his tyre problems. Bahrain is the only time where Jenson was legitimately slower.


Oh come on, that is absurd exaggeration. Button was faster than Hamilton in Australia but being three seconds ahead at the end of the first stint is not "destroying" someone. The two were well matched in China where they spent most of the time in traffic. In both races, particularly China, it is reasonable to assume that Hamilton would have finished ahead of Button without the clutch issue and the grid penalty respectively. Australia is debatable but track position between the two McLaren drivers is crucial because it dictates first call on strategy. Even if Button had been on Hamilton's gearbox there was probably not enough of a pace differential to make a pass. On Malaysia, I'm not sure which part of the race you're talking about. There was a point where Button was banging in fastest laps but that was after he came in for an extra set of inters. Bahrain has been covered.

The two have been closely matched so far and that is unlikely to change, particularly under these regulations.

#3142 Pamphlet

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:51

Oh come on, that is absurd exaggeration. Button was faster than Hamilton in Australia but being three seconds ahead at the end of the first stint is not "destroying" someone.


McLaren easily had the best car that day, yet even on the first stint Hamilton could barely beat Vettel's pace and was being clearly outpaced by his teammate. Past that, we all know that he couldn't do anything to stop Vettel, in a worse car, from taking 2nd. That alone should say it all.

In both races, particularly China, it is reasonable to assume that Hamilton would have finished ahead of Button without the clutch issue and the grid penalty respectively.


Did you already forget about Jenson's botched pit stop? The one that put him in traffic?

Edited by Pamphlet, 28 April 2012 - 23:51.


#3143 gricey1981

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:54

Button would also have considerably more points if not for mechanical issues, botched pitstops. Plus an un-Button like brain fart, but i'm afraid that's just racing.

Out of interest, which races in your opinion could Hamilton have won on pure race pace alone and no botched pitstops?

Here's my opinion.

Melbourne - I doubt it, considering Button just had superior pace on that particular weekend, as Vettel said he was untouchable. Ham might have grabbed 2nd, but McLaren didn't have Mystic Meg present to predict the safety car.

Malaysia - Didn't even put a dent on Perez and Alonso's lead, they were very quick in those conditions so even if he had top notch pitstops, 3rd was the best he could achieve.

China - Unfortunate Gearbox penalty, but that's racing, not really an error by McLaren as such.

Bahrain - IMHO the best he could have achieved was 5th considering the poor race pace of both Macs and the way they were eating through their rear tyres.


Crazy how he is beating his tema mate really, been on the front row every race and is 2nd in the championship. Button must really suck

#3144 McLaren

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:55

More often than not? He destroyed Lewis in Australia and China and his pace was on par with Perez' in Malaysia, despite his tyre problems. Bahrain is the only time where Jenson was legitimately slower.


And where did you get that info from?

Hamilton has actually been the quicker driver overall in races:


Button Hamilton
Australia 38 20
Malaysia 17 39
China 30 26
Bahrain 18 37

Total 103 laps 122 laps

The above figures are how many laps either driver was quicker than the other during the race.

So I don't see how you can say Button has destroyed Hamilton.



#3145 zack1994

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:57

+1
It’s funny to see how some are overlooking JB struggle with tyre deg. He was great in Melbourne but struggled more than Lewis in Malaysia and even more in Bahrain. There was nothing between them at Shanghai, but the result was masked because of Lewis’ grid penalty. I have to say that JB is becoming “massively” overrated. If the car or tyres are out of the optimum operating zone JB struggles more than Lewis. Given what we’ve seen thus far with these (crap) Pirellis, I honestly don’t see why JB supporters are beating their chests with confidence when his race pace has been weaker than Lewis’ more often than not this year...yes I said race pace. When you have freakish conditions like Germany last year, Jenson falls off the map.

Had to be said.

Theres been 4 races jenson was quicker in aus/lewis quicker in mal/jenson and lewis pace identical in china/bahrain lewis quicker.
I see no reason to be worried and who's beating there chest?.
Jenson's had some problem with tyres this year but don't worry you won't hear button fans saying it's not fair theses tyres are against his style everythings so against him.
The tyres are a problem jenson and his engineers need to improve on simple as that.

#3146 Pamphlet

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 23:59

And where did you get that info from?

Hamilton has actually been the quicker driver overall in races:


Button Hamilton
Australia 38 20
Malaysia 17 39
China 30 26
Bahrain 18 37

Total 103 laps 122 laps

The above figures are how many laps either driver was quicker than the other during the race.

So I don't see how you can say Button has destroyed Hamilton.


Total gap per race would be a better evaluation than that. By your calculations, a .001s difference is equal to a 1s difference.

#3147 McLaren

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 00:01

Total gap per race would be a better evaluation than that. By your calculations, a .001s difference is equal to a 1s difference.


Fact is Hamilton has been the quicker driver over more laps than Button. And those are facts.

I am trying to have a balanced perspective.. but am simply showing Button hasn't destoyed Hamilton.

#3148 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 00:10

Did you miss the rest of the post? :stoned: It all goes together,and you still didn't answer my question,only then I can answer you as I have no clue where you stand on the matter.I told you my criteria and Alonso doesn't make it since Ham beat him in Quali, and showed plenty he was a match for him raceday throughout the season .

LH had JB covered in both in 2010 and plenty were wondering whether JB would ever beat LH in DRY/NORMAL race,something LH did plenty vs FA.

So my criteria is fine.


I would think your 10 - 7 criteria is a bit lax!

To me dominating another driver means that you convincingly beat him/her almost every time you compete, you are in control.

For example - Alonso so far is dominating Massa in the first four races this year and almost completely dominated him last season.

#3149 Juggles

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 00:25

I would think your 10 - 7 criteria is a bit lax!

To me dominating another driver means that you convincingly beat him/her almost every time you compete, you are in control.

For example - Alonso so far is dominating Massa in the first four races this year and almost completely dominated him last season.


This is exactly why I used the word "dominated" a few posts ago to describe Hamilton vs Button in 2010. It was close in terms of points but Hamilton was in control in every normal race.

#3150 fieraku

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 00:26

I would think your 10 - 7 criteria is a bit lax!

To me dominating another driver means that you convincingly beat him/her almost every time you compete, you are in control.

For example - Alonso so far is dominating Massa in the first four races this year and almost completely dominated him last season.

I see.Well LH did beat/finish ahead of JB almost every time in 2010,and even in the ones he DNF he was ahead of him.Now to your point,that's all Ham could do is finish ahead, and he has no control of where JB finished which was right behind LH most the time,so because of that fact that it wasn't convincingly (by 100pts) you don't think he was dominated.

I don't disagree with either view,domination means different thing to most F1 fans.