Jump to content


Photo

2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4041 replies to this topic

#3151 Juggles

Juggles
  • Member

  • 896 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 29 April 2012 - 00:33

McLaren easily had the best car that day, yet even on the first stint Hamilton could barely beat Vettel's pace and was being clearly outpaced by his teammate. Past that, we all know that he couldn't do anything to stop Vettel, in a worse car, from taking 2nd. That alone should say it all.

Did you already forget about Jenson's botched pit stop? The one that put him in traffic?


No I didn't and from tracking live timing I think there is a good chance Button would have won the race without that poor pit stop. But the point is without that penalty Hamilton would have started four places ahead of Button. Considering their similar race pace, do you think Button would have finished ahead even without his pit stop drama?

Advertisement

#3152 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,814 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 29 April 2012 - 00:39

Oh come on, that is absurd exaggeration. Button was faster than Hamilton in Australia but being three seconds ahead at the end of the first stint is not "destroying" someone. The two were well matched in China where they spent most of the time in traffic. In both races, particularly China, it is reasonable to assume that Hamilton would have finished ahead of Button without the clutch issue and the grid penalty respectively. Australia is debatable but track position between the two McLaren drivers is crucial because it dictates first call on strategy. Even if Button had been on Hamilton's gearbox there was probably not enough of a pace differential to make a pass. On Malaysia, I'm not sure which part of the race you're talking about. There was a point where Button was banging in fastest laps but that was after he came in for an extra set of inters. Bahrain has been covered.

The two have been closely matched so far and that is unlikely to change, particularly under these regulations.


+1

#3153 halifaxf1fan

halifaxf1fan
  • Member

  • 4,846 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:14

I see.Well LH did beat/finish ahead of JB almost every time in 2010,and even in the ones he DNF he was ahead of him.Now to your point,that's all Ham could do is finish ahead, and he has no control of where JB finished which was right behind LH most the time,so because of that fact that it wasn't convincingly (by 100pts) you don't think he was dominated.

I don't disagree with either view,domination means different thing to most F1 fans.


2010 was a good scrap that Hamilton managed to win- 9 podiums to 7, 3 wins to 2. Keep in mind also fieraku that mathematically Button was still in it up to the last race.

#3154 hammibal

hammibal
  • Member

  • 1,857 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:01

To be fair doing the way i've done it probably isn't the best way to understand the quali difference from 2010 to 2011 I'll try another way.
I'll compare races/qualfying sessions that are possible so for instance belgium can't be compared neither can bahrain or any other lap for either driver that is disrupted in any way.
Brazil 2010 gap 3 tenths to lewis - 2011 gap 2 tenths to jenson
Abu dhabi 2010 gap 4 tenths to lewis - 2011 gap half a tenth to lewis
Korea 2010 gap 6 tenths to lewis - 2011 gap 3 tenths to lewis
Japan 2010 gap 2 tenths to lewis - 2011 gap 1 tenth to lewis (even though jenson outqualified lewis by a tenth its fairer to go by there 1st run as lewis didn't get a second run.)
Singapore 2010 3 tenths to lewis - 2011 gap 1 tenth to lewis (same situation as japan)
Italy 2010 gap 5 tenths to jenson - 2011 gap half a tenth to lewis
Hungary 2010 gap 4 tenths to lewis - 2011 gap Half a tenth to lewis
Europe 2010 gap 2 tenths to lewis - 2011 gap 2 tenths to lewis
Canada 2010 gap 4 tenths to lewis - 2011 gap 3 tenths to lewis
Spain 2010 gap 1 tenth to lewis - 2011 gap half a tenth to lewis
Turkey 2010 gap 3 tenths to lewis - 2011 gap 4 tenths to lewis
China 2010 gap 1 tenth to jenson - 2011 gap half a tenth to jenson

I hope people get the point.

Yes i see your point basically in the 9 of the 15 races you can compare Jenson improved however in 4 of these he did worse, 2 of these races which he does worse and are missed out are:-

Australia 2010 gap 5 tenths to Jenson - 2011 gap 4 tenths to Lewis
Germany 2010 gap 2 tenths to Jenson - 2011 gap 1.1 seconds to Lewis

These 2 results obviously are going to make a big difference to the overall average and would explain why its the same in both years

#3155 hammibal

hammibal
  • Member

  • 1,857 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:11

2010 was a good scrap that Hamilton managed to win- 9 podiums to 7, 3 wins to 2. Keep in mind also fieraku that mathematically Button was still in it up to the last race.

Of course conveniently forgetting that Lewis lost far more points to Jenson through no fault of his own which also benefitted Jenson

#3156 MP422

MP422
  • Member

  • 1,746 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:21

2010 was a good scrap that Hamilton managed to win- 9 podiums to 7, 3 wins to 2. Keep in mind also fieraku that mathematically Button was still in it up to the last race.



...Second to last race ! :up:

#3157 hammibal

hammibal
  • Member

  • 1,857 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:23

More often than not? He destroyed Lewis in Australia and China and his pace was on par with Perez' in Malaysia, despite his tyre problems. Bahrain is the only time where Jenson was legitimately slower.



Button stopped on lap 24 for an additional set of intermediates compared to the leaders.

It almost reads like Jenson could have won Malaysia if..................

Theres been 4 races jenson was quicker in aus/lewis quicker in mal/jenson and lewis pace identical in china/bahrain lewis quicker.
I see no reason to be worried and who's beating there chest?.
Jenson's had some problem with tyres this year but don't worry you won't hear button fans saying it's not fair theses tyres are against his style everythings so against him.
The tyres are a problem jenson and his engineers need to improve on simple as that.

Thats how i read it as well, very reasoned post from a Jenson supporter :up:

#3158 halifaxf1fan

halifaxf1fan
  • Member

  • 4,846 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 07 May 2012 - 20:06

Of course conveniently forgetting that Lewis lost far more points to Jenson through no fault of his own which also benefitted Jenson


Honestly no one remembers those details and they don't really mean that much especially seeing that Button did so well in 2011. At the end of the day Hamilton managed to beat Button in 2010 but didn't dominate as expected.

...Second to last race ! :up:


Correct me if I am wrong but Hamilton had a 23 point margin over Button going into Abu Dhabi. So Button could still have beaten Hamilton if he pulled off a win and Hamilton got one or no points. Not very likely but possible!

#3159 hammibal

hammibal
  • Member

  • 1,857 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 07 May 2012 - 20:19

Honestly no one remembers those details and they don't really mean that much especially seeing that Button did so well in 2011. At the end of the day Hamilton managed to beat Button in 2010 but didn't dominate as expected.

People remember that Lewis was quicker in almost every race in 2010, the same people will accept that Jenson was the better man in 2011

Advertisement

#3160 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 07 May 2012 - 21:36

Yes i see your point basically in the 9 of the 15 races you can compare Jenson improved however in 4 of these he did worse, 2 of these races which he does worse and are missed out are:-

Australia 2010 gap 5 tenths to Jenson - 2011 gap 4 tenths to Lewis
Germany 2010 gap 2 tenths to Jenson - 2011 gap 1.1 seconds to Lewis

These 2 results obviously are going to make a big difference to the overall average and would explain why its the same in both years

In australia 2010 lewis didn't get a proper lap together because of yellow flags and 2010 germany and 2011 germany are different circuits so not a fair comparison.

#3161 hammibal

hammibal
  • Member

  • 1,857 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:10

In australia 2010 lewis didn't get a proper lap together because of yellow flags and 2010 germany and 2011 germany are different circuits so not a fair comparison.

Thats news to me, it was put down to Lewis not being on his game because of hoongate

You need to run it past me how Germany was different tracks plus it still doesnt alter the fact that a struggling Jenson outqualified Lewis by 2 tenths and then a much improved Jenson got outqualified by 1.1 seconds

#3162 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:25

Thats news to me, it was put down to Lewis not being on his game because of hoongate

You need to run it past me how Germany was different tracks plus it still doesnt alter the fact that a struggling Jenson outqualified Lewis by 2 tenths and then a much improved Jenson got outqualified by 1.1 seconds

I think i'm right in saying on his last oppurtunity to get a lap in yellow flags come out in sector 1.
Well they were different tracks 2010 hockenhiem compared to 2011 nurburgring.

#3163 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 5,791 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 08 May 2012 - 06:58

I wasn't aware Lewis was bragging. The season is very young yet and Lewis has surely had more than his fair share of bad luck amongst some very mature drives. Lewis is hardly driving badly is he, or do you think different?

At least Lewis has not had a meltdown unlike a certain WDC..... :D

#3164 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,316 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:54

The two were well matched in China where they spent most of the time in traffic.

Actually, Button didn't spent most of the time in traffic, because he drove through it when needed. Lewis couldn't, so in the race they certainly weren't matched.

#3165 slmk

slmk
  • Member

  • 4,398 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 08 May 2012 - 11:35

Actually, Button didn't spent most of the time in traffic, because he drove through it when needed. Lewis couldn't, so in the race they certainly weren't matched.


You do realize that it becomes harder to go through traffic with worn tyres, right?

This race would have been totally different had Lewis been able to start from his original spot on the grid.

#3166 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,316 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 08 May 2012 - 14:42

You do realize that it becomes harder to go through traffic with worn tyres, right?

Yes.

#3167 hammibal

hammibal
  • Member

  • 1,857 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 08 May 2012 - 20:35

I think i'm right in saying on his last oppurtunity to get a lap in yellow flags come out in sector 1.
Well they were different tracks 2010 hockenhiem compared to 2011 nurburgring.

But does that diminish the point or are we saying that Jenson is brilliant around Hockenheim but rubbish around the Nurburgring?

#3168 TheBunk

TheBunk
  • Member

  • 4,083 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 08 May 2012 - 20:54

I feel this can be Jensons weekend.

#3169 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,316 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 08 May 2012 - 21:37

But does that diminish the point or are we saying that Jenson is brilliant around Hockenheim but rubbish around the Nurburgring?

Yeah, kinda. Hockenheim is one of his best tracks, Nurburgring might be his worst.

#3170 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,316 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 08 May 2012 - 21:58

I feel this can be Jensons weekend.

He's always been close to Lewis in qualifying here, but never challenged him in the races. Is your feeling mainly based on hope?

#3171 Pamphlet

Pamphlet
  • Member

  • 414 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:48

He's always been close to Lewis in qualifying here, but never challenged him in the races. Is your feeling mainly based on hope?


Doesn't he also have the new gearbox ready?

#3172 TheBunk

TheBunk
  • Member

  • 4,083 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 09 May 2012 - 00:37

He's always been close to Lewis in qualifying here, but never challenged him in the races. Is your feeling mainly based on hope?


You may have a point there.

#3173 MP422

MP422
  • Member

  • 1,746 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 09 May 2012 - 17:35

Doesn't he also have the new gearbox ready?


I don't think he get's a penalty. I think they only have to last 4 races.

#3174 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 5,791 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:02

I don't think he get's a penalty. I think they only have to last 4 races.

http://www.formula1....gulations/8689/

Each driver may use no more than one gearbox for five consecutive events. Every unscheduled gearbox change will require the driver to drop five places on the grid at that meeting. Every subsequent unscheduled gearbox change will require the driver to drop five places on the grid.

If a driver fails to finish a race due to reasons beyond his or his team's control, he may start the next meeting with a different gearbox without incurring a penalty.

#3175 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,233 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:39

Doesn't he also have the new gearbox ready?


It was rumoured that Mac have a new gearbox coming on line and that JB would be able to use it at the next race due to his non-finish at the last. I haven't seen anything to confirm that this is actually the case though, so it might still be the same type of gearbox.

#3176 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 8,343 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:23

Ok, own up. Which Hamilton fan just sent that message to the 5Live team about Jenson moaning?

#3177 PARAZAR

PARAZAR
  • Member

  • 1,093 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:33

Ok, own up. Which Hamilton fan just sent that message to the 5Live team about Jenson moaning?


What did they say?

#3178 TallyHo

TallyHo
  • Member

  • 271 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:47

Ok, own up. Which Hamilton fan just sent that message to the 5Live team about Jenson moaning?

The irony is though that Button went fastest a few minutes later, and Hamilton was moaning about his gears being too long :lol:

#3179 TallyHo

TallyHo
  • Member

  • 271 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:48

What did they say?

They said usual Button moaning because his team mate went faster.

Advertisement

#3180 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,377 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 11 May 2012 - 13:15

They said usual Button moaning because his team mate went faster.



When Button points out what they need to focus on, it's moaning. When Hamilton says it feels like his gears are too long, that's not moaning? Ant D said sometimes if the temperatures are hot you lose power and it feels like the gears are too long, btw. I very much doubt they have the wrong gearing, esp at this circuit! Unless of course they listened to people on here moaning about short gearing!

#3181 Fox1

Fox1
  • Member

  • 611 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 11 May 2012 - 13:46

When Button points out what they need to focus on, it's moaning. When Hamilton says it feels like his gears are too long, that's not moaning? Ant D said sometimes if the temperatures are hot you lose power and it feels like the gears are too long, btw. I very much doubt they have the wrong gearing, esp at this circuit! Unless of course they listened to people on here moaning about short gearing!

Lewis is driving the car. I think his opinion on gearing counts more than anyone, especially those "people" outside of the team. Ant is doing his job, but so is Lewis.

#3182 MP422

MP422
  • Member

  • 1,746 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:57

When Button points out what they need to focus on, it's moaning. When Hamilton says it feels like his gears are too long, that's not moaning? Ant D said sometimes if the temperatures are hot you lose power and it feels like the gears are too long, btw. I very much doubt they have the wrong gearing, esp at this circuit! Unless of course they listened to people on here moaning about short gearing!



Jenson moans about the same things throughout his career. Whenever he is slow or struggling... he can't get the tire temps up... Massive understeer etc.. Always blames tires and balance.

#3183 sofarapartguy

sofarapartguy
  • Member

  • 1,008 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 11 May 2012 - 18:05

Jenson moans about the same things throughout his career. Whenever he is slow or struggling... he can't get the tire temps up... Massive understeer etc.. Always blames tires and balance.


Are you sure you're not confusing JB with Massa?

Today JB was faster on softs than Lewis. Deal with it.

#3184 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • In the running for best OP of 2014

  • 3,275 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 11 May 2012 - 18:15

Considering the current trend in the thread, Autosport's decision to print the following headline is priceless:

"Jenson Button overcame understeer issues with his McLaren to post the quickest time of the day in second practice for the Spanish Grand Prix on Friday at the Circuit de Catalunya."

:rotfl:

#3185 tommyhjortasen

tommyhjortasen
  • Member

  • 587 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 11 May 2012 - 18:16

Can Lewis cope with the big tyre gap in the race?

Jenson can.

#3186 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 11 May 2012 - 18:17

Can Lewis cope with the big tyre gap in the race?

Jenson can.


Jenson can, Lewis can't.

#3187 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,316 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 11 May 2012 - 19:26

Jenson can, Lewis can't.

Other way around.

#3188 m0912329

m0912329
  • Member

  • 123 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 May 2012 - 19:35

FFS he is a WDC he knows what he is doing

#3189 dave12

dave12
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 11 May 2012 - 20:37

Other way around.

Does not seem to be that way this weekend.

#3190 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,396 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 11 May 2012 - 20:38

When Button points out what they need to focus on, it's moaning. When Hamilton says it feels like his gears are too long, that's not moaning? Ant D said sometimes if the temperatures are hot you lose power and it feels like the gears are too long, btw. I very much doubt they have the wrong gearing, esp at this circuit! Unless of course they listened to people on here moaning about short gearing!


Actually Lewis was unhappy about short gearing last year, so McLaren might have listened to him.



#3191 dave12

dave12
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 11 May 2012 - 20:42

Actually Lewis was unhappy about short gearing last year, so McLaren might have listened to him.


Indeed i believe Jenson did to. Last year that is

Edited by dave12, 11 May 2012 - 20:46.


#3192 dans79

dans79
  • Member

  • 279 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 11 May 2012 - 20:49

[/b]
Indeed i believe Jenson did to. Last year that is



They both did, and I got video to prove it.


#3193 dave12

dave12
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 11 May 2012 - 20:52

They both did, and I got video to prove it.

Thought so, Cheers :up:

#3194 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 11 May 2012 - 20:56

Actually Lewis was unhappy about short gearing last year, so McLaren might have listened to him.


Curiosly/confusingly, Lewis' top speeds:

From quali 2011 - 318.7km/h
From FP2 2012 - 313.4km/h




#3195 dave12

dave12
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 11 May 2012 - 20:58

Curiosly/confusingly, Lewis' top speeds:

From quali 2011 - 318.7km/h
From FP2 2012 - 313.4km/h

:eek:

#3196 f1fastestlap

f1fastestlap
  • Member

  • 1,795 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 11 May 2012 - 21:15

Can Lewis cope with the big tyre gap in the race?

Jenson can.


Can Jenson cope with the big tyre gap in the race?

Lewis can.
:wave:

#3197 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,316 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 11 May 2012 - 22:15

Does not seem to be that way this weekend.

Err? http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99512

"On the hard tyre I just can't get it working. I just can't get the temperature into the tyres. I don't know why it is but it's something we need to sort out for Sunday."

Button admitted the gap between the two compounds brought to Spain was huge for him.

"For me it felt massive, but for other people... For Lewis [Hamilton], he seemed quicker on the prime than he was on the option, and I was the other way around, so it's a strange one," he said.



#3198 TheBunk

TheBunk
  • Member

  • 4,083 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 11 May 2012 - 22:51

Lewis tips Button to get pole tomorrow

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/18038983

These Mclaren drivers..they play nice together, dont they. :smoking:

#3199 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 11 May 2012 - 23:01

Jenson moans about the same things throughout his career. Whenever he is slow or struggling... he can't get the tire temps up... Massive understeer etc.. Always blames tires and balance.


You'd do well to read this article in full to understand why it is exactly that Button has these issues. I find it hilarious the way people speak about this as if he should just 'get on with it' or 'try harder' or something, showing a complete lack of appreciation for what makes a driver fast.

http://f12011-setups...s-revealed.html

Advertisement

#3200 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,377 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 11 May 2012 - 23:14

Lewis is driving the car. I think his opinion on gearing counts more than anyone, especially those "people" outside of the team. Ant is doing his job, but so is Lewis.

The team know way better than the driver what gearing to use.