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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#3201 Kvothe

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 23:20

The team know way better than the driver what gearing to use.


Like Barcelona last year right? :)

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#3202 GlenP

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 23:40

Like Barcelona last year right? :)

I don't think that example proves anything. The gear ratios are set by simulation and other data. Very often last year, including Monza, the shorter geared car was quicker over a lap, which may have felt counter-intuitive to the driver sat on the limiter down the straights. Here Hamilton was feeling the gearing to be too long, not too short. I think feeling it to be too long and actually having some data to back that up are very different things, the former being the weaker factor. Other set-up things depend much more on driver feel, but not gearing so much.

#3203 Juggles

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 23:44

Like Barcelona last year right? :)


Maybe Hamilton wouldn't have been able to get on Vettel's gearbox if he hadn't been geared as short as he was. There's always a trade off. If I remember rightly the problem last year was that he couldn't accelerate off the final corner fast enough (whether because of dirty air or lack of downforce compared to the Red Bull).

#3204 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 23:55

Maybe Hamilton wouldn't have been able to get on Vettel's gearbox if he hadn't been geared as short as he was. There's always a trade off. If I remember rightly the problem last year was that he couldn't accelerate off the final corner fast enough (whether because of dirty air or lack of downforce compared to the Red Bull).


Also, in qualifying just 3 hundredths separated him, Alonso and Button on the grid. Had he started from 5th rather than 3rd like he did, he may not ever have been in a position to pressure Vettel like he did.

Honestly, he never got so close to Vettel that his gearing would have made the difference IMO. It's just one of those things - a difficult track to overtake at where the Red Bull was faster than the McLaren out of the final corner. I think it simply would have taken a big mistake from Vettel for Lewis to have got past. I don't think how Mclaren set up their car can be blamed for Hamilton not winning.

#3205 Kvothe

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 23:56

I don't think that example proves anything. The gear ratios are set by simulation and other data. Very often last year, including Monza, the shorter geared car was quicker over a lap, which may have felt counter-intuitive to the driver sat on the limiter down the straights. Here Hamilton was feeling the gearing to be too long, not too short. I think feeling it to be too long and actually having some data to back that up are very different things, the former being the weaker factor. Other set-up things depend much more on driver feel, but not gearing so much.


It was just a tongue in cheek comment Glen, I see the sense in what your saying just showing that sometimes the team aren't always right. Although while the gear ratio's are set by simulation and other data they are only fixed friday evening presumably with some sort of driver input, I would expect any experienced driver particularly a WDC to feel if they're not getting out of the corner fast enough, whether there is a reason for this (the conditions ect) is another thing entirely.


Maybe Hamilton wouldn't have been able to get on Vettel's gearbox if he hadn't been geared as short as he was. There's always a trade off. If I remember rightly the problem last year was that he couldn't accelerate off the final corner fast enough (whether because of dirty air or lack of downforce compared to the Red Bull).


Possibly, although I think Lewis being right up on Vettel's gearbox owed itself more to the McLaren being better able to manage the tyres, as opposed to Red Bull who seemed to suffer with degradation at all the high speed tracks (Barcelona, Silverstone, Sazuka). I can't remember when but someone posted a quote of Christian Horner who noted that they lost 0.9 tenths at Barca dialling in the understeer to look after the tyres.
Of course you raise a valid point but at its hard to tell how much better the relative race pace would have been particularly because on the Pirellis it's actually more race management.

Edited by Kvothe, 11 May 2012 - 23:57.


#3206 GlenP

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 23:57

Also, in qualifying just 3 hundredths separated him, Alonso and Button on the grid. Had he started from 5th rather than 3rd like he did, he may not ever have been in a position to pressure Vettel like he did.

Honestly, he never got so close to Vettel that his gearing would have made the difference IMO. It's just one of those things - a difficult track to overtake at where the Red Bull was faster than the McLaren out of the final corner. I think it simply would have taken a big mistake from Vettel for Lewis to have got past. I don't think how Mclaren set up their car can be blamed for Hamilton not winning.

Yes.

#3207 TheBunk

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 00:02

It was just a tongue in cheek comment Glen, I see the sense in what your saying just showing that sometimes the team aren't always right. Although while the gear ratio's are set by simulation and other data they are only fixed friday evening presumably with some sort of driver input, I would expect any experienced driver particularly a WDC to feel if they're not getting out of the corner fast enough, whether there is a reason for this (the conditions ect) is another thing entirely.




Possibly, although I think Lewis being right up on Vettel's gearbox owed itself more to the McLaren being better able to manage the tyres, as opposed to Red Bull who seemed to suffer with degradation at all the high speed tracks (Barcelona, Silverstone, Sazuka). I can't remember when but someone posted a quote of Christian Horner who noted that they lost 0.9 tenths at Barca dialling in the understeer to look after the tyres.
Of course you raise a valid point but at its hard to tell how much better the relative race pace would have been particularly because on the Pirellis it's actually more race management.


As you say, an experienced driver particular and former wdc should only blame himself if he lets his team choose the wrong gearing while he knows better.

Vettel lets his team rebuild his entire rear end if he doesnt like the new stuff.

#3208 Kvothe

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 00:04

As you say, an experienced driver particular and former wdc should only blame himself if he lets his team choose the wrong gearing while he knows better.

Vettel lets his team rebuild his entire rear end if he doesnt like the new stuff.


Yeah but in the end he usually just copies Webber's set-up.

#3209 Dunder

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 00:07

Also, in qualifying just 3 hundredths separated him, Alonso and Button on the grid. Had he started from 5th rather than 3rd like he did, he may not ever have been in a position to pressure Vettel like he did.

Honestly, he never got so close to Vettel that his gearing would have made the difference IMO. It's just one of those things - a difficult track to overtake at where the Red Bull was faster than the McLaren out of the final corner. I think it simply would have taken a big mistake from Vettel for Lewis to have got past. I don't think how Mclaren set up their car can be blamed for Hamilton not winning.


Hamilton was 5 km/h faster than Vettel at the speed trap in qualifying and generally 15-16 km/h faster on approach to the braking zone when his DRS was employed.

Posted Image

Vettel had fantastic drive out of the final chicane (on every lap that I saw) and was able to take T16 at full throttle whilst deploying KERS.
Fully agree that longer gearing would not have helped.

Interesting that both McLaren drivers have used a shorter 7th gear (in FP2 at least) this year.



#3210 BillBald

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 00:11

Curiosly/confusingly, Lewis' top speeds:

From quali 2011 - 318.7km/h
From FP2 2012 - 313.4km/h


That is a bit surprising, although I've noticed that this year most teams seem to be following Red Bull's lead and choosing lower ratios. That's why the DRS hasn't always been very effective.



#3211 Kvothe

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 00:12

Hamilton was 5 km/h faster than Vettel at the speed trap in qualifying and generally 15-16 km/h faster on approach to the braking zone when his DRS was employed.

Posted Image

Vettel had fantastic drive out of the final chicane (on every lap that I saw) and was able to take T16 at full throttle whilst deploying KERS.
Fully agree that longer gearing would not have helped.

Interesting that both McLaren drivers have used a shorter 7th gear (in FP2 at least) this year.


Well, both Jenson and Lewis in the F1 2011 season review thought it would have or at least that they were geared too short, and McLaren acknowledged this. I also remember one lap in the final stint where Lewis almost got Vettel, and could perhaps have dived down the inside if he wanted to risk ruining his tyres. A longer gear would have certainly helped then.

I assume they imagine they'll be leading from the front, it is risky though Button especially hasn't had the greatest of starts in a McLaren at Barcelona.

#3212 Dunder

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 00:17

That is a bit surprising, although I've noticed that this year most teams seem to be following Red Bull's lead and choosing lower ratios. That's why the DRS hasn't always been very effective.


I think it just reflects that qualifying is not quite as critical and that gearing for race laps (esp. early in the race under heavy fuel) has become more important.

I have assumed a shorter 7th gear but I also bear in mind that they were almost certainly running at restricted revs in FP2 so I would expect that the ratio is only slightly different.



#3213 Dunder

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 00:31

Well, both Jenson and Lewis in the F1 2011 season review thought it would have or at least that they were geared too short, and McLaren acknowledged this. I also remember one lap in the final stint where Lewis almost got Vettel, and could perhaps have dived down the inside if he wanted to risk ruining his tyres. A longer gear would have certainly helped then.

I assume they imagine they'll be leading from the front, it is risky though Button especially hasn't had the greatest of starts in a McLaren at Barcelona.


I saw that interview (not the McLaren acknowledgement though).

With the longer gears (just a longer 7th on it's own is not practical) he would not have been in that position in the first place. He would have suffered from reduced acceleration (and lower end of straight speeds on every lap where DRS was not deployed) so who can possibly say how the race would have panned out to that point?

Edited by Dunder, 12 May 2012 - 00:46.


#3214 Kvothe

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 00:57

Fully agree that longer gearing would not have helped.



I saw that interview (not the McLaren acknowledgement though).

With the longer gears (just a longer 7th on it's own is not practical) he would not have been in that position in the first place. He would have suffered from reduced acceleration (and lower end of straight speeds on every lap where DRS was not deployed) so who can possibly say how the race would have panned out to that point?


You?

Fully agree that longer gearing would not have helped.

 ;)

Edited by Kvothe, 12 May 2012 - 01:08.


#3215 Obi Offiah

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 01:05

Consider Lewis couldn't get close enough, even though Seb was hampered by KERS issues, I think the DRS zone needs to be longer.

#3216 BillBald

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 02:10

Consider Lewis couldn't get close enough, even though Seb was hampered by KERS issues, I think the DRS zone needs to be longer.


I heard it is, this year.



#3217 stevesingo

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:47

I think when they take the fuel out of the car, the gearing will be fine. The reduced acceleration may even help tyre wear in the early stages, and when the track has rubbered in and the fuel has been used, they should be sitting pretty.

#3218 robefc

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 08:14

As you say, an experienced driver particular and former wdc should only blame himself if he lets his team choose the wrong gearing while he knows better.

Vettel lets his team rebuild his entire rear end if he doesnt like the new stuff.


Yep, vettel went his own way with the upgrades, finished behind webber and finally decided to trust newey and the team that the upgrades were actually worth if, I doth my hat to him sir ;)

#3219 Lights

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 09:46

Button: "I know these are old tyres, but I was struggling a lot with the rear of the car out there."
Pit » BUT: "A new option tyre will resolve many of these issues."

Hamilton: "The rear tyres are sliding around quite a bit."
Pit » HAM: "These tyres can come off now."

They have no f'ckn clue :confused:

Edited by Lights, 12 May 2012 - 09:49.


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#3220 Lazy

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:04

Quality Lewis :)

#3221 ImDDAA

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:09

Whitmarsh looked gutted.

#3222 Dalton007

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:09

Lewis was brilliant today. Jenson SUCKED today - but his car on full tanks might help him tomorrow and dial out his balance issue.

#3223 jrg19

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:09

5-0?

#3224 pit5bul

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:11

yeah i think we can give the point today to Lewis... for the first time this year he was constantly faster in practice and qualy than Jason.. lets hope Jason can recover tomorrow and bring some points for the team... Lewis car stopped and were not sure if its gonna be OK tomorrow for the race so we need Jason to do the points run for McLaren !!

#3225 Lazy

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:11

Lewis in PC:

"Best qualifying ever" :D

#3226 Hulkster

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:11

Whitmarash gonna have to play a blinder to get JB ahead of LH here.

Maybe that's why Lewis was told to stop on track? :lol:

Edited by Hulkster, 12 May 2012 - 13:12.


#3227 robefc

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:13

Button: "I know these are old tyres, but I was struggling a lot with the rear of the car out there."
Pit » BUT: "A new option tyre will resolve many of these issues."

Hamilton: "The rear tyres are sliding around quite a bit."
Pit » HAM: "These tyres can come off now."

They have no f'ckn clue :confused:


Not sure what you're implying, those were lewis's hards coming off weren't they? The two messages are consistent...

#3228 velgajski1

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:13

Lewis was fantastic today!

#3229 robefc

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:16

Lewis was fantastic today!


Wish it was a qualifying championship, lewis and the car have been peerless.

Not that Lewis has done anything wrong in the races but they're a tad more complicated.

Really hope this problem with the car resolves itself, he's in such a good position with JB (sorry guys), MW and vettel so far back and can make serious headway but I fear the worse.

#3230 Lights

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:22

Not sure what you're implying, those were lewis's hards coming off weren't they? The two messages are consistent...

I'm implying that it reads like whenever a driver complaints about something McLaren solves it by just throwing a new set of tyres on.

#3231 Lazy

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:22

Whitmarsh looked gutted.


Didn't he just :D Lewis in a McLaren next year looking very unlikely.

#3232 Dalton007

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:28

He may have been concerned that Lewis's car might have a major problem.

#3233 fieraku

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:29

Lewis was brilliant today. Jenson SUCKED today - but his car on full tanks might help him tomorrow and dial out his balance issue.

More like Ham made the tires work and JB did not. Pirelli Sweepstakes.

#3234 dave12

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:34

More like Ham made the tires work and JB did not. Pirelli Sweepstakes.

:up: Never thought i would say this but bring back Bridgestone. ):

#3235 Sinceref189

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:35

Lewis was brilliant today. Jenson SUCKED today - but his car on full tanks might help him tomorrow and dial out his balance issue.

Lewis has been on top form in qualifying no doubt . But as you said Button could bring himself back into contention if he feels better with the overall balance in the race good luck to him . He needs to nail his start though no way he can afford to fall back into more of the midfield

#3236 Lights

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:35

More like Ham made the tires work and JB did not. Pirelli Sweepstakes.

No, Jenson can make the softs work, that's not the problem.

#3237 race addicted

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:36

He may have been concerned that Lewis's car might have a major problem.


Do you really believe that?
.......

It was ugly for Button today. Seven, eight, nine tenths off! Hamilton was just fantastic!

#3238 slmk

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:36

Lewis has been on top form in qualifying no doubt . But as you said Button could bring himself back into contention if he feels better with the overall balance in the race good luck to him . He needs to nail his start though no way he can afford to fall back into more of the midfield


Problem is McLaren is a handful at the start of the race usually.

#3239 undersquare

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:36

He may have been concerned that Lewis's car might have a major problem.

Well in the next breath he was telling Ted it was not a penalty issue and no big deal.

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#3240 robefc

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:37

I'm implying that it reads like whenever a driver complaints about something McLaren solves it by just throwing a new set of tyres on.


Ah, sorry, I thought you meant they were doing different things for the two drivers.

It's bloody confusing in fairness, JB liked the softs today didn't he whilst struggling on the primes and then the softs were horrible today too.

I don't think they have much of a clue but not sure anyone else does either.



#3241 TallyHo

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:43

Does anyone think that Vettel, Button and Webber will be starting on the hards tomorrow? With Hamilton & co on a tyre that degrades quickly, and with the pack so bunched up that when the front runners pit early they'll be stuck in traffic with the drivers on the Hard streaking off into the distance.

#3242 Lights

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:46

Ah, sorry, I thought you meant they were doing different things for the two drivers.

It's bloody confusing in fairness, JB liked the softs today didn't he whilst struggling on the primes and then the softs were horrible today too.

I don't think they have much of a clue but not sure anyone else does either.

True in that it's confusing. And everybody being confused means Jenson is useless.

If Hamilton wants to win the championship he has to do it with weekends like these.

#3243 fieraku

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:49

No, Jenson can make the softs work, that's not the problem.


So why didn't he?
Every race,every track,every session from FP1/FP2/SP3..to..Q1/Q2/Q3 performance can change massively within minutes,these tires are that sensitive,down to even 1degree change :eek: in ambient/track temp.

FFS even ice cream ain't that sensitive.

#3244 Lazy

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 13:56

Does anyone think that Vettel, Button and Webber will be starting on the hards tomorrow? With Hamilton & co on a tyre that degrades quickly, and with the pack so bunched up that when the front runners pit early they'll be stuck in traffic with the drivers on the Hard streaking off into the distance.


I'm clinging to the hope that Jenson can make the hards work in race conditions :)

#3245 Dalton007

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 14:00

The balance of the car was fine yesterday on softs. They changed the brakes to help the warming of the hard tyre today. I dunno. Button is usually good in the race, but the others around him are not too shabby either. It's going to be tough to get to the front tomorrow.

#3246 robefc

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 14:03

Does anyone think that Vettel, Button and Webber will be starting on the hards tomorrow? With Hamilton & co on a tyre that degrades quickly, and with the pack so bunched up that when the front runners pit early they'll be stuck in traffic with the drivers on the Hard streaking off into the distance.


I think there's a bit of wishful exaggeration/simplificatoin going on there but it's certainly an option (see what I did there! :) - I think they're all guessing a little bit so might want to split strategies for RB.

James Allen in FP3 seemed to think the softs were lasting longer than the prime but everyone else seems to think prime is the race tyre of choice.

Would be mental if those further back got ahead thanks to running the hards early and then were struggling with degradation on the softs at the end with lewis et al coming back at them...

#3247 inca_roads

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 14:04

Superb effort from Lewis. With his three main challengers in 8th, 11th and 12th, he's in a really great position. He was on top form all the way through the session.

EDIT - what was the deal with the Sky commentary team in Q1?! - they seemed to be under the impression Hamilton was the only guy to have to go out on softs, which I would find hard to believe, considering he was fastest on hards.

Edited by inca_roads, 12 May 2012 - 14:12.


#3248 Kraken

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 14:10

I hope they find an issue with JB's car. It doesn't make any sense at all that putting more front wing on would lead to more understeer.

#3249 dave12

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 14:12

I hope they find an issue with JB's car. It doesn't make any sense at all that putting more front wing on would lead to more understeer.

No issue with the car just the tires.

#3250 ImDDAA

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 14:23

I hope they find an issue with JB's car. It doesn't make any sense at all that putting more front wing on would lead to more understeer.


How many times have we heard Button complain about balance since he's been at McLaren? It's feels like at least 50% of the races he has some sort of issue with his set-up - rarely does it effect him badly in the race though and that's what matters most.