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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#3401 mlsnoopy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:00

Clear win by Lewis.

What's the score now?

Button wasn't so bad but I've never seen a driver gifting position so easy.


5:0 for Hamilton. He was better in all 5 races, without the screw ups he would have finished ahead ina all of them.

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#3402 Dalin80

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:01

I would split the points for the race.

Yes, technically, Hamilton did finish ahead of Button on the track, he only did so well on those tires because of everything Button has taught him about saving tires. Without Button, Hamilton would have had to take 5 stops today, so it is only fair to share points.

Yet again Hamilton getting all the benefit from Button's superior and smoother race craft.




I dont like commentating on the poster rather then the post but sir are a crazy person.

That or my sarcsam meter has just looped on itself in which case I apologise.

Hamilton had a brilliant drive and hopefully finally but some myths to bed.

#3403 pit5bul

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:01

TRRROOOOLLLL.. cmon as if

#3404 oligc94

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:01

Troll or serious?


Don't feed it and maybe it will toddle off to the Vettel thread... :drunk:

#3405 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:01

So if Lewis started on pole he'd had lapped everyone today including JB?


If Lewis had started on pole I believe he would have won - he was totally on top of the tyres this weekend quite clearly - when he's in tune with his tyres he's one of the best out there, easily.

#3406 f1fastestlap

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:01

Troll or serious?

Troll

#3407 velgajski1

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:02

I can barely wait to hear Martin Whitmarsh statement. I bet it will be something like: 'Good effort from both of our drivers, unfortunately Button had a problem with...'.

#3408 Clatter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:04

If Lewis had started on pole I believe he would have won - he was totally on top of the tyres this weekend quite clearly - when he's in tune with his tyres he's one of the best out there, easily.


I don't think there can be any doubt of that. He made the tyres last despite being in traffic just about all race, if he had been in front and controlling the pace he would have been close to one stopping.

#3409 hunnylander

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:04

Button has been kovalained.

#3410 BinaryDad

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:05

Button has been kovalained.


Oof! That's harsh....but also very funny.

#3411 Sausage

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:06

I can barely wait to hear Martin Whitmarsh statement. I bet it will be something like: 'Good effort from both of our drivers, unfortunately Button had a problem with...'.

Force majeure!

#3412 SuperSoft

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:07

I can barely wait to hear Martin Whitmarsh statement. I bet it will be something like: 'Good effort from both of our drivers, unfortunately Button had a problem with...'.


No, he was just interviewed just now...

"Excellent race from both drivers, finishing in front of each other as expected. Jenson was brilliant under very difficult circumstances, he drove a fine race. Lewis was off the pace a bit, I think he had some trouble getting heat into his tires but he did okay. What about Jenson though? I give him points for this one."


#3413 pit5bul

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:07

Cmon guys...stop the BS.. this is the first race of the year that Lewis was clearly faster than Jason.. in Australia JB was the faster driver.. and they were sort of equal in the other races ! I think JB has had a great year so far.. minus this race.. but i still prefer LH for moments of brilliance such as this race !!

#3414 fieraku

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:09

If Lewis had started on pole I believe he would have won - he was totally on top of the tyres this weekend quite clearly - when he's in tune with his tyres he's one of the best out there, easily.


True. I'm still baffled how he could "push" in the first 30 laps on old as dirt tires. :confused:

#3415 jjcale

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:10

That's about as strong and composed a drive as I've seen from LH for a long long time... coupled with the worst weekend overall from JB in terms of performance versus what the car can do since he joined Macca.

...coincidence?

#3416 P123

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:11

Cmon guys...stop the BS.. this is the first race of the year that Lewis was clearly faster than Jason.. in Australia JB was the faster driver.. and they were sort of equal in the other races ! I think JB has had a great year so far.. minus this race.. but i still prefer LH for moments of brilliance such as this race !!


I think it was the second where LH has been faster on race pace (talking small margins all round here anyway), Bahrain being the other. More puzzling is why JB was struggling so much on the tyres- both compounds. The pace just wasn't there.

#3417 Raziel

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:11

Nice answer about tyres Lewis (on BBC). LOL. :rotfl: :up:


#3418 Burtros

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:12

Lewis destroyed Button this weekend. It was like Alonso vs Massa. Embarrassing.

Incredible drive from Lewis. Aggressive, mature and inspiring.

Tyre management myth officially put to bed too!


Right... just like Alonso and Massa this weekend.... what a completely and utterly stupid thing to say. Button has a bad weekend vs Hamilton yes, but its some way off the Alonso vs Massa situation.

I mean the race has just happened, who are you trying to kid here?

10 places on the grid gap vs 14 for Alonso and Massa.

8th and 9th in the race (ok skewed by the Lewis penalty) vs 3rd and 15th.

Button took a pasting this weekend, no doubt, but Massa was murdered out there and its an ongoing situation in that team.

If anything is embarrassing, I would say its your desperate attempt to skew reality.


#3419 Clatter

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:12

That's about as strong and composed a drive as I've seen from LH for a long long time... coupled with the worst weekend overall from JB in terms of performance versus what the car can do since he joined Macca.

...coincidence?


It does seem that they can only ever get the one car setup correctly.

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#3420 Raifosa

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:12

Nice answer about tyres Lewis (on BBC). LOL. :rotfl: :up:

what did he say?

#3421 glorius&victorius

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:14

hihi.. that was funny.. one pitstop less... from the back of the field.. omg!

#3422 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:14

what did he say?

Hopefully you will see a YouTube clip. It was an awesome jab and smirk by Lewis.

#3423 Lokt

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:14

Nice answer about tyres Lewis (on BBC). LOL. :rotfl: :up:


what did he say?

#3424 P123

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:16

It does seem that they can only ever get the one car setup correctly.


The fickleness of the tyres? Both seemed strong in Oz, Weather played a part in Malaysia, both seemed strong in China, both were poor in Bahrain, and this time there was a large gap between them. JB did change brake material on Saturday so I think he was always taking a bit of a blind punt with the setup.

#3425 Raziel

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:17

what did he say?


That everybody criticized him/his driving style and poor tyre management for nothing, and this race was his answer for those, something like that :lol:

#3426 pinkypants

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:18

Force majeure!

:lol:

#3427 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:19

what did he say?

Hopefully you will see a YouTube clip. It was an awesome jab and smirk by Lewis.

#3428 P123

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:19

hihi.. that was funny.. one pitstop less... from the back of the field.. omg!


Feel like a broken record, but it's always been a 'problem' that is overplayed. If it comes down to pure preservation then of course JB's smoother style will help- even Rubens couldn't always match JB's tyre preserving skills, and that was on the Bridgestones.

#3429 Dalton007

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:20

No doubt Jenson will be back and return a left hook to Lewis -- I just don't know when.

#3430 pinkypants

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:21

Nice answer about tyres Lewis (on BBC). LOL. :rotfl: :up:


:lol:

Pow!! Love Lewis in fighting spirit. You have to give this weekend to Lewis. Bring on the next race.

#3431 fisssssi

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:22

Terrible race again for Jenson... what on earth is going on there? They seem to be getting worse every race!

Thankfully Pastor and co keep winning and keeping the championship nice and close...

#3432 velgajski1

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:22

No doubt Jenson will be back and return a left hook to Lewis -- I just don't know when.


Probably in Monaco after McLaren screw up Lewis race again.

#3433 PARAZAR

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:24

Congratulations to Lewis on a great drive! A race to forget for Jenson. I must say the gloating is terrible in here whenever Lewis does well.

#3434 Pamphlet

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:25

Another race weekend where Jenson is well and truly beaten. 2011 feels like a long time ago...

#3435 TheBunk

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:25

Im embarrassed being a Button fan. What a shockingly bad display. Whole weekend goes to Lewis imo.

#3436 Markn93

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:26

McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton, who finished eighth: "I am proud of myself and the team. We did a good job to come all the way from the back, we battled through and conserving the tyres was tough. Someone told me that I was only the person on a two stop, so I think that considering everyone keeps telling me that I am hard on tyres and how much smoother my team-mate is, I think that should show them. I just nursed them all the way through. I just cleared my mind and got on with it from the back of the grid. It was like being back in the karting days. Sometimes I would turn up with my dad and that is something that we would have to do."

BBC interview

#3437 oligc94

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:26

Congratulations to Lewis on a great drive! A race to forget for Jenson. I must say the gloating is terrible in here whenever Lewis does well.


To be fair, it's pretty similar when JB wins (although in general I would say JB fans are slightly more gracious). Both fans are as bad as each other really :lol:

#3438 P123

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:26

Congratulations to Lewis on a great drive! A race to forget for Jenson. I must say the gloating is terrible in here whenever Lewis does well.


Hmm, there's always gloating. Even when JB beats Hamilton there is spades of it, although it only tends to come from one or two JB fans and the rest from the team of Hamilton critics who tend to follow him around.

#3439 Coral

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:27

Great race from Lewis today. Jenson was woeful I'm afraid, that was the Jenson I used to know and love.;) I hope Whitmarsh was taking note. Can't wait for Monaco now! :up:

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#3440 jjcale

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:34

This was impressive from LH this weekend but we have seen this before ...the erratic LH of 2011 was an aberration.

I'm more interested in why JB was so poor...for the whole weekend. This is new... at least so far as I can recall.

Looking forward to some good analysis from the JB fans ... who to, be honest, tend to be a quite thoughful in how they look at things.

#3441 anti

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:38

Comparison of the drivers Lewis Hamilton VS Jenson Button Race Spanish GP 2012 (link)

#3442 velgajski1

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:39

As I always said, JB just has these weekedns where he seems quite slow. He's blistering fast on a good day, but tends to have these bad days every now and then. Also, Hamilton was superb today so it made look Jenson worse than he really was.

#3443 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:45

Button was catching Lewis for a lot of the last stint - Lewis was tyre saving and just did a better job than Jenson at this race, his tyres were older but he managed to hold onto them.

#3444 PARAZAR

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:52

McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton, who finished eighth: "I am proud of myself and the team. We did a good job to come all the way from the back, we battled through and conserving the tyres was tough. Someone told me that I was only the person on a two stop, so I think that considering everyone keeps telling me that I am hard on tyres and how much smoother my team-mate is, I think that should show them. I just nursed them all the way through. I just cleared my mind and got on with it from the back of the grid. It was like being back in the karting days. Sometimes I would turn up with my dad and that is something that we would have to do."

BBC interview


There you go right from the horses mouth, no problem with tyre management. As far as him being compared to his teammate infavourably, he shouldn't feel that bad considering that Jenson had to endure the same thing when Lewis first entered F1 as the new, better British driver. Jenson looked completely lost out there, he looked completely off the pace. And as far as I'm concerned it was obvious that today wasn't a true representation of his pace and racecraft.

Edit: Seeing the driver comparison chart provided by Anti above looks like once again there wasn't much between them. Maybe it's the fact that Lewis came from dead last to finish ahead of his team mate that makes it look like Jenson performed really badly. It could be the difference in strategy. Either way weekend goes to Lewis.

Edited by PARAZAR, 13 May 2012 - 15:02.


#3445 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 14:56

There you go right from the horses mouth, no problem with tyre management. As far as him being compared to his teammate infavourably, he shouldn't feel that bad considering that Jenson had to endure the same thing when Lewis first entered F1 as the new, better British driver. Jenson looked completely lost out there, he looked completely off the pace. And as far as I'm concerned it was obvious that today wasn't a true representation of his pace and racecraft.


I still think Jenson has the edge on tyre management - a few bad races doesn't change that - however one of the biggest factors in tyre wear is the cars setup, get it right and the drivers job is easier, get it wrong and the driver can be fighting a losing battle.

The gap between drivers is always small anyway.

#3446 Siperoth

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:03

I was shocked by Button today and not just his speed, i mean his low speed could have it's reasons but the way he let people pass him was quite shocking. I mean Massa is going slow compared to his team mate too but his a pain in the ass to pass and Button didn't even try to be a little pain in the ass for the ones gunning after him. Especially with Vettel it could have been of help if he managed to hold him a little.

#3447 ermo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:05

As PretentiousBread peroa pointed out, it might have done Jenson good to have done one of the testing days at Mugello, as all his whinging, moaning and bitching at least would have given the engineers a decent set of data points to work with. :smoking:

The new higher nose would theoretically give the exhaust blown rear end cleaner air to work with, thus potentially producing more rear downforce at high speeds than the previous lower nose (witness the stability of Lewis' McLaren through the long uphill turn 3 right hander which is taken full throttle). And since Barcelona is very much rear left traction limited, and since Jenson clearly prefers a stable rear end under breaking and corner entry, there is a possibility that by going for a setup designed around a more stable rear end under braking, Jenson set himself up for the additional understeer under full power at 120+ km/h where the exhaust gasses give the biggest boost to rear downforce, thus moving the aero pressure balance rearwards. Offsetting that understeer by adding more front wing would move him away from his ideal corner entry preference of a stable rear, as the exhaust is not blowing much when off the throttle and thus not offsetting the front wing aero pressure bias which gets even larger as the front wing moves closer to the ground (and thus produces more downforce) as the car pitches forward under the braking induced weight shift. This coupled with not quite getting the tyres into their working window could explain his corner entry oversteer/high speed understeer conundrum.

Lewis on the other hand has no issues with the car being loose on corner entry, so he likely just made sure that it had a decent balance in the high speed stuff and used his natural style to keep the tyre temperatures in the correct window and just worked with the corner entry oversteer instead of against it. On top of that, he contained himself and attacked when it made sense and avoided putting too much thermal energy into his tyres when he didn't have an ideal opportunity to overtake.

I'd say that whatever Didier Coton is doing is clearly working for Lewis and is allowing Lewis to focus on getting the best out of himself and the car. It must have felt good to send a jab in Button's direction, but I'm not sure it is necessarily a good sign. Time will tell, I suppose.

And just to be clear: I think Lewis did an absolutely brilliant job this weekend, no question about it, so good on him. Apart from human error -- pressing the '-' button instead of the '+' button on the fuel rig for 6 seconds prior to Lewis' Q3 run -- he and his team clearly did a much better job than Button's side of the garage in terms of setup. That flatspot that Jenson gave his hard tyres was symptomatic of a weekend where he was simply slightly off kilter. He should be able to do better, provided that he doesn't let his recent string of disappointments get to him.

Edited by ermo, 13 May 2012 - 20:03.


#3448 Boxerevo

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:06

One thing i am really sure,they are LEARNING a lot with each other.

Learning about every aspect on motor racing,making stronger they weak spots.

Edited by Boxerevo, 13 May 2012 - 15:07.


#3449 PARAZAR

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:10

I still think Jenson has the edge on tyre management - a few bad races doesn't change that - however one of the biggest factors in tyre wear is the cars setup, get it right and the drivers job is easier, get it wrong and the driver can be fighting a losing battle.

The gap between drivers is always small anyway.


I completely agree with you.

#3450 PARAZAR

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 15:15

As PretentiousBread pointed out, it might have done Jenson good to have done one of the testing days at Mugello, as all his whinging, moaning and bitching at least would have given the engineers a decent set of data points to work with. :smoking:

The new higher nose would theoretically give the exhaust blown rear end cleaner air to work with, thus potentially producing more rear downforce at high speeds than the previous lower nose (witness the stability of Lewis' McLaren through the long uphill turn 3 right hander which is taken full throttle). And since Barcelona is very much rear left traction limited, and since Jenson clearly prefers a stable rear end under breaking and corner entry, there is a possibility that by going for a setup designed around a more stable rear end under braking, Jenson set himself up for the additional understeer under full power at 120+ km/h where the exhaust gasses give the biggest boost to rear downforce, thus moving the aero pressure balance rearwards. Offsetting that understeer by adding more front wing would move him away from his ideal corner entry preference of a stable rear, as the exhaust is not blowing much when off the throttle and thus not offsetting the front wing aero pressure bias which gets even larger as the front wing moves closer to the ground (and thus produces more downforce) as the car pitches forward under the braking induced weight shift. This coupled with not quite getting the tyres into their working window could explain his corner entry oversteer/high speed understeer conundrum.

Lewis on the other hand has no issues with the car being loose on corner entry, so he likely just made sure that it had a decent balance in the high speed stuff and used his natural style to keep the tyre temperatures in the correct window and just worked with the corner entry oversteer instead of against it. On top of that, he contained himself and attacked when it made sense and avoided putting too much termal energy into his tyres when he didn't have an ideal opportunity to overtake.

I'd say that whatever Didier Coton is doing is clearly working for Lewis and is allowing Lewis to focus on getting the best out of himself and the car. It must have felt good to send a jab in Button's direction, but I'm not sure it is necessarily a good sign. Time will tell, I suppose.

And just to be clear: I think Lewis did an absolutely brilliant job this weekend, no question about it, so good on him. Apart from human error -- pressing the '-' button instead of the '+' button on the fuel rig for 6 seconds prior to Lewis' Q3 run -- he and his team clearly did a much better job than Button's side of the garage in terms of setup. That flatspot that Jenson gave his hard tyres was symptomatic of a weekend where he was simply slightly off kilter. He should be able to do better, provided that he doesn't let his recent string of disappointments get to him.


:up: Great post and analysis.