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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#3551 gezmond

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:18

If they don't sort out these balance issues jenson's chance to fight for the championship is over simple as that.


are these the same 'balance issues' that dont seem to exist in hamiltons car?



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#3552 Markn93

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:23

are these the same 'balance issues' that dont seem to exist in hamiltons car?


JB is more sensitive, Lewis can drive around a car's problems, sometimes not even noticing balance problems.

#3553 GlenP

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:24

The onus is mainly on Button himself to work out why he can't get the tyres into their window. Obviously there is an engineering team working on that with him, but ultimately Hamilton is proving that it is not impossible.

#3554 gezmond

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:30

JB is more sensitive, Lewis can drive around a car's problems, sometimes not even noticing balance problems.


lewis is really showing how good a driver he is when he can drive around issues and put the car on pole with 6 tenths between him and the next driver....

unless of course the balance issues didnt really exist to the extent that a certain JB was using as an excuse to his lack of pace

#3555 zack1994

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:31

are these the same 'balance issues' that dont seem to exist in hamiltons car?

Yep you do no that is possible.
[Turns ignorant switch on]
But of course jenson's lying and there are no balance problems at all he's just covering himself because he was slow, just like lewis after 2011 japan.


#3556 Kraken

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:37

If Mclaren stop making silly mistakes for Mainly Lewis then i see him winning the title this year, he is clearly faster than Jenson and his attitude and mindsight has changed from 2011, its like he is a new person, he has still got that raw speed when needed.

I think everyone at Mclaren knows Lewis is the one who can bring the title home this year.

When Jenson has his car setup well and has a nice balance he is supreme but throughout the season this isn't going to be the case and i can't stand the constant moaning, he can't match Lewis for Quali (5-0) and from what he was saying today he struggles when stuck behind someone?? "Yes Jenson everyone will struggle like this with the loss of downforce, effect on tyres, get on with it ffs"

It's not moaning when you're saying things like "we put more front wing on and the understeer got worse". Anyone who knows anything about setting a car up will tell you that something is not right when that happens.

Also the problem he is experiencing behind other cars is different to what one would expect and other drivers are getting. He is actually losing heat from his tyres. Being in the situation when you're losing downforce means the tyres are sliding more so you would expect them to get hotter not colder.

I really don't get why people have this thing about JB moaning. I've met the guy and he is a genuine, upbeat and very focussed individual. The last thing he would do is moan. All he does is state facts but for some reason that's construed as moaning. If he said nothing people would say he was clueless.

#3557 Kraken

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:39

are these the same 'balance issues' that dont seem to exist in hamiltons car?

They existed on Friday. Lewis was far from happy with his car and was tipping Jensen for pole.

#3558 maverick69

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:46

I really don't get why people have this thing about JB moaning. I've met the guy and he is a genuine, upbeat and very focussed individual. The last thing he would do is moan. All he does is state facts but for some reason that's construed as moaning. If he said nothing people would say he was clueless.


I think a lot of it is down to his tone of voice and the slightly strung out descriptions over the radio when he's having car troubles - because all he's doing is relaying the same information as anyone else would.

#3559 peroa

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:46

If they don't sort out these balance issues jenson's chance to fight for the championship is over simple as that.

Maybe "balancing" the car out will make it ultimately slower.
The car showed very good performance, at least in Q, there are still some doubts over a race distance IMHO.

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#3560 gezmond

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:47

They existed on Friday. Lewis was far from happy with his car and was tipping Jensen for pole.


Everyone had balance issues on friday until the track evolved

I'm just trying to make a point that JB has used 'balance issues' as an excuse for his lack of pace for a long time. If I had a quid for everytime I heard JB say those two words I'd be a rich man by now.

This year its becoming apparent that Lewis has just upped his game, overcome his demons and is looking to thrash Jenson by the end of the season if he keeps this performance up. There doesnt seem to be much wrong with the car at all.

#3561 ForzaGTR

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:23

I'm putting money down on a Hamilton victory at Monaco, he's electric at street tracks and in his current form I expect a great performance. He appears to have got to grips with the tyres too.

Barring any team cocks up (could happen...) or an unexpected drop in performance (unlikely) I see next weekend as the moment Hamilton can stamp his authority on the championship. It's been a long road since 2008 but I have a really good feeling about Lewis this year. I just hope his team steps up.

Monaco is of course where it all started to go wrong for Lewis last year, let's hope the opposite happens!

Edited by Olly F1, 14 May 2012 - 11:24.


#3562 hammibal

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:43

It's not moaning when you're saying things like "we put more front wing on and the understeer got worse". Anyone who knows anything about setting a car up will tell you that something is not right when that happens.

Also the problem he is experiencing behind other cars is different to what one would expect and other drivers are getting. He is actually losing heat from his tyres. Being in the situation when you're losing downforce means the tyres are sliding more so you would expect them to get hotter not colder.

I really don't get why people have this thing about JB moaning. I've met the guy and he is a genuine, upbeat and very focussed individual. The last thing he would do is moan. All he does is state facts but for some reason that's construed as moaning. If he said nothing people would say he was clueless.

I'm not sure your correct with that Jenson also experienced oversteer problems as well, it went from one to the other he couldnt get the car balanced to his liking, you're making it out like there was something fundamentally wrong with his car where a change was having an opposite affect to what it should do

#3563 zack1994

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:44

Everyone had balance issues on friday until the track evolved

I'm just trying to make a point that JB has used 'balance issues' as an excuse for his lack of pace for a long time. If I had a quid for everytime I heard JB say those two words I'd be a rich man by now.

This year its becoming apparent that Lewis has just upped his game, overcome his demons and is looking to thrash Jenson by the end of the season if he keeps this performance up. There doesnt seem to be much wrong with the car at all.

You say that as if its a fact that its an excuse for bad pace, which of course it isn't.
Im sure if it was the other way round and lewis struggled it would be true that he had balance issues.

#3564 hammibal

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:44

I'm putting money down on a Hamilton victory at Monaco, he's electric at street tracks and in his current form I expect a great performance. He appears to have got to grips with the tyres too.

Barring any team cocks up (could happen...) or an unexpected drop in performance (unlikely) I see next weekend as the moment Hamilton can stamp his authority on the championship. It's been a long road since 2008 but I have a really good feeling about Lewis this year. I just hope his team steps up.

Monaco is of course where it all started to go wrong for Lewis last year, let's hope the opposite happens!

It will only go wrong if the team cocks up like it did last year

#3565 BootLace

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:48

I'm not sure your correct with that Jenson also experienced oversteer problems as well, it went from one to the other he couldnt get the car balanced to his liking, you're making it out like there was something fundamentally wrong with his car where a change was having an opposite affect to what it should do


Jenson actually said "we put more front wing on and the understeer got worse" about his last qually attempt and something along the lines "figure that one out". There's clearly something puzzling going on in the way the car / tyre combo works with Jenson's style, that the team haven't been able to get on top of.

#3566 gricey1981

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:53

Jenson's never that great around Barcelona. Im sure he hasnt forgotten how to drive like in Australia.

Shame Lewis couldnt start from pole - would have won easily.

How did he manage 30 laps on those tires though I couldnt believe it.

#3567 hammibal

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:57

Jenson actually said "we put more front wing on and the understeer got worse" about his last qually attempt and something along the lines "figure that one out". There's clearly something puzzling going on in the way the car / tyre combo works with Jenson's style, that the team haven't been able to get on top of.

Fair enough, in the race he seemed to complain about oversteer

#3568 jrg19

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:58

You say Jensons never that great around Barcelona but he won in 2009.

#3569 slmk

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:07

You say Jensons never that great around Barcelona but he won in 2009.


Didn't they screw Rubens's strategy by putting him on a 3-stopper (when 2-stopper was the better option)?

#3570 jrg19

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:08

Didn't they screw Rubens's strategy by putting him on a 3-stopper (when 2-stopper was the better option)?


I can't remember i just new he won, ill rewatch the highlights and see.

#3571 gricey1981

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:12

You say Jensons never that great around Barcelona but he won in 2009.


Sato beat him here too in 04. He may have had an issue in qualifying though.

#3572 hammibal

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:14

Jenson's never that great around Barcelona. Im sure he hasnt forgotten how to drive like in Australia.

Shame Lewis couldnt start from pole - would have won easily.

How did he manage 30 laps on those tires though I couldnt believe it.

Yes who would have thought he was capable of doing that especially after last year, i see many things different about Lewis this year which are very encouraging and i think the balance has definitely swung back in Lewis's favour now, if not for several things out of his control he would have a healthy lead in the WDC

#3573 GlenP

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:22

They are now separated by two big things, rather than one. Previously there wasn't much in it except for Jenson's error in Sepang, but this failure to get the tyres working is the second mistake from Button, and an even greater one. I don't like his demeanor at the moment, although I don't doubt he will sort it out soon enough.

#3574 maverick69

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:58

I've been saying this for a while - and it's becoming more and more clear that it is true: These tyres play right into one of Hamilton's core strengths - adaptability.

This is beacuse the operating window of these tyres is very narrow and constantly shifting - right up Hamilton's street.

I think that if JB doesn't get a hold on this situation then he could be beaten comprehensively by seasons end.

IMO Barcelona was a great snapshot into what is to come.......

#3575 schubacca

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 13:14

JB is still one of the top drivers in F1.

But these tyres are f*cking ridiculous.

JB is being polite when he says the tyres are baffling. He should come out like MS and say that they are utterly awful.

I rate JB and LH highly. JB is not 10 places slower than LH in qualifying.....

#3576 teejay

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 13:16

You say Jensons never that great around Barcelona but he won in 2009.


In a car that was easily a second quicker than anything else, and they pretty much screwed Rubens out of a win.

#3577 maverick69

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 13:17

JB is still one of the top drivers in F1.

But these tyres are f*cking ridiculous.


JB is being polite when he says the tyres are baffling. He should come out like MS and say that they are utterly awful.

I rate JB and LH highly. JB is not 10 places slower than LH in qualifying.....


I'd agree with that as well.

#3578 GlenP

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 13:17

I've been saying this for a while - and it's becoming more and more clear that it is true: These tyres play right into one of Hamilton's core strengths - adaptability.

This is beacuse the operating window of these tyres is very narrow and constantly shifting - right up Hamilton's street.

I think that if JB doesn't get a hold on this situation then he could be beaten comprehensively by seasons end.

IMO Barcelona was a great snapshot into what is to come.......

You're specialising in wisdom after the event! Barcelona was a snapshot of the future. Not Melbourne? Just pick the one you like the look of and don't bother explaining why. I mean, you don;t need t explain why you prefer the Bacelona example! But I mean explain why in relation to logic, not just preference!

I do agree that it is a matter of urgency for Button to understand the technicalities of getting the sweet spot with the tyres, but I think it's a bit soon to predict the season.

#3579 maverick69

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 13:20

You're specialising in wisdom after the event! Barcelona was a snapshot of the future. Not Melbourne? Just pick the one you like the look of and don't bother explaining why. I mean, you don;t need t explain why you prefer the Bacelona example! But I mean explain why in relation to logic, not just preference!

I do agree that it is a matter of urgency for Button to understand the technicalities of getting the sweet spot with the tyres, but I think it's a bit soon to predict the season.


Melbourne is always a funny race.

Now everything has settled down a little - and it has always been said that Barcelona tends to indicate common trends that will manifest themselves through a season.

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#3580 GlenP

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 13:35

Melbourne is always a funny race.

Now everything has settled down a little - and it has always been said that Barcelona tends to indicate common trends that will manifest themselves through a season.

OK. I'd tend to agree with that.

Still think that Button can have an epiphany and understand this tyre thing, technically speaking. And then they'd be neck and neck again. As things stand, Hamilton has the upper hand.

#3581 ImDDAA

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 14:15

I do remember certain quarters heavily criticising Hamilton for not being able to set up a car and copying Jensons set ups and how because of that he wasn't a rounded driver - all valid criticisms but the same standards aren't applied with Button himself when he fails to get his car working - be good to see more even handedness from those people.

I still fully believe that these tyres are creating a lottery myself so don't think Jenson fans should be too hard on him.

#3582 GlenP

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 14:19

The same standards are applied double for me - Jenson is a technically-minded type driver. If he doesn't get the bit he is best at right then he deserves criticism.

#3583 Lights

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 14:41

Fact remains that he's gonna be very busy every weekend. He already had these issues at several weekends during previous years, and this season the tyres are more unpredictable than ever. But it's the same for every driver, and therefor he obviously deserves criticism on this matter. Sorry for offending anyone but I don't want to be like certain Hamilton fans who keep crying that the regulations don't suit their driver. It's the same for everyone, adaptability is a skill, and eventually talent and quality will shine through. Just look at... exactly, Hamilton. Button now and then just needs some more time to make it his own, but I haven't given up yet. Melbourne was only 2 months ago.

#3584 ImDDAA

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:55

Fact remains that he's gonna be very busy every weekend. He already had these issues at several weekends during previous years, and this season the tyres are more unpredictable than ever. But it's the same for every driver, and therefor he obviously deserves criticism on this matter. Sorry for offending anyone but I don't want to be like certain Hamilton fans who keep crying that the regulations don't suit their driver. It's the same for everyone, adaptability is a skill, and eventually talent and quality will shine through. Just look at... exactly, Hamilton. Button now and then just needs some more time to make it his own, but I haven't given up yet. Melbourne was only 2 months ago.


I think these regulations don't suit Hamiltons driving style - I'm not using it as an excuse for anything - I just believe that to be a fact. It doesn't need to be made into a personal issue against a group of posters - it's really quite reasonable to believe that different drivers have different driving styles and therefore different regs will suit different styles in different ways and to varying degrees - it's always up to the driver to adapt if they want to be successful and as the regs change so often it effects different drivers at different times. You don't have to agree with any of that but I'd rather people tackled the argument than just said 'crying Hamilton fans'.

#3585 TheBunk

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 16:55

I think these regulations don't suit Hamiltons driving style - I'm not using it as an excuse for anything - I just believe that to be a fact. It doesn't need to be made into a personal issue against a group of posters - it's really quite reasonable to believe that different drivers have different driving styles and therefore different regs will suit different styles in different ways and to varying degrees - it's always up to the driver to adapt if they want to be successful and as the regs change so often it effects different drivers at different times. You don't have to agree with any of that but I'd rather people tackled the argument than just said 'crying Hamilton fans'.


:up:

#3586 Lights

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 17:24

I think these regulations don't suit Hamiltons driving style - I'm not using it as an excuse for anything - I just believe that to be a fact. It doesn't need to be made into a personal issue against a group of posters - it's really quite reasonable to believe that different drivers have different driving styles and therefore different regs will suit different styles in different ways and to varying degrees - it's always up to the driver to adapt if they want to be successful and as the regs change so often it effects different drivers at different times. You don't have to agree with any of that but I'd rather people tackled the argument than just said 'crying Hamilton fans'.

That's exactly what I said as well and I don't see how one could disagree. I'm not tackling anything, just pointing out that I'm not going to use it as an excuse for anything.

#3587 maverick69

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 17:30

I think these regulations don't suit Hamiltons driving style - I'm not using it as an excuse for anything - I just believe that to be a fact. It doesn't need to be made into a personal issue against a group of posters - it's really quite reasonable to believe that different drivers have different driving styles and therefore different regs will suit different styles in different ways and to varying degrees - it's always up to the driver to adapt if they want to be successful and as the regs change so often it effects different drivers at different times. You don't have to agree with any of that but I'd rather people tackled the argument than just said 'crying Hamilton fans'.


I think they suit a certain aspect of his driving style really well: i.e. You have to be very adaptable to get the best out of them.

It's just that he has to keep his "flamboyant" side in check - which I always found pleasing to watch.

#3588 dave12

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:28

In a car that was easily a second quicker than anything else, and they pretty much screwed Rubens out of a win.

Show me one race where the Brawn had an easy second on any other car?

#3589 SmokeScreen

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:40

I do remember certain quarters heavily criticising Hamilton for not being able to set up a car and copying Jensons set ups and how because of that he wasn't a rounded driver - all valid criticisms but the same standards aren't applied with Button himself when he fails to get his car working - be good to see more even handedness from those people.

I still fully believe that these tyres are creating a lottery myself so don't think Jenson fans should be too hard on him.



How can it be a valid criticism when the validity of the claim is suspect?

#3590 bonjon1979a

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:47

I thought it was interesting watching Anthony D's study of Hamilton's overtake of the 2 toro rosso's showing how he keeps out of the turbulent air of the car in front. It's something I've noticed before when he's following other cars, he finds different ways of taking the corner so as to not lose too much downforce. Is it something that Jenson's less able to do and so therefore he loses downforce, heat in the tyres etc? I'm not sure but it could be a reason for the difference in how they're able to keep the tyres 'in the window'...

#3591 zack1994

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:49

In a car that was easily a second quicker than anything else, and they pretty much screwed Rubens out of a win.

1 second explain?
Rubens didn't do a good enough job in the 3rd stint thats why he lost and the reason they changed button onto a 2 stop was because of rosberg.
know one was screwed.

#3592 Kvothe

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:01

I thought it was interesting watching Anthony D's study of Hamilton's overtake of the 2 toro rosso's showing how he keeps out of the turbulent air of the car in front. It's something I've noticed before when he's following other cars, he finds different ways of taking the corner so as to not lose too much downforce. Is it something that Jenson's less able to do and so therefore he loses downforce, heat in the tyres etc? I'm not sure but it could be a reason for the difference in how they're able to keep the tyres 'in the window'...


I'm curious as to how one loses heat in the tyres getting into the turbulent air of another car, surely the fact that you're in that hot dirty air and your sliding all the place should result in him getting more heat in the tyres, potentially overheating them.

Edited by Kvothe, 14 May 2012 - 20:13.


#3593 Markn93

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:04

I'm curious as to how one loses heat in the tyres getting into the turbolent air of another car, surely the fact that you're in that hot dirty air and your sliding all the place should result in him getting more heat in the tyres, potentially overheating them.


I agree, to me it's never made sense. I've therefore understood it to mean 'losing optimum temperature', although I'm probably wrong.

#3594 maverick69

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:06

I'm curious as to how one loses heat in the tyres getting into the turbolent air of another car, surely the fact that you're in that hot dirty air and your sliding all the place should result in him getting more heat in the tyres, potentially overheating them.


The front wing is not being worked as hard - not pushing the tyres into the track as much.

JB has very smooth inputs...... Which will not energize the tyres as much...... I guess......

#3595 bonjon1979a

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:12

The front wing is not being worked as hard - not pushing the tyres into the track as much.

JB has very smooth inputs...... Which will not energize the tyres as much...... I guess......


This. Is it a different type of energy going through the tyres when the car's washing out across the track compared to energy generated by downforce pushing car into the road?

#3596 Kvothe

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:13

Ok thanks guys :up:

#3597 maverick69

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:20

This. Is it a different type of energy going through the tyres when the car's washing out across the track compared to energy generated by downforce pushing car into the road?


It is. Also, Lewis is hard on the brakes which naturally would put more downward pressure on the fronts. I assume this is part of the reason for JB changing his brakes during the course of the weekend.

#3598 MP422

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:29

You're specialising in wisdom after the event! Barcelona was a snapshot of the future. Not Melbourne? Just pick the one you like the look of and don't bother explaining why. I mean, you don;t need t explain why you prefer the Bacelona example! But I mean explain why in relation to logic, not just preference!

I do agree that it is a matter of urgency for Button to understand the technicalities of getting the sweet spot with the tyres, but I think it's a bit soon to predict the season.


No your looking at it with bias :love: . Barcelona is the litmus test for F1 as it's a aero dependent circuit and a happy testing ground for all the teams. It shakes out the fastest cars.

Melbourne is always a funny race.

Now everything has settled down a little - and it has always been said that Barcelona tends to indicate common trends that will manifest themselves through a season.


That's how i interpreted your opinion.

OK. I'd tend to agree with that.

Still think that Button can have an epiphany and understand this tyre thing, technically speaking. And then they'd be neck and neck again. As things stand, Hamilton has the upper hand.


Did you see JB's comments post race ? something along the lines of "i was just slow"...then he added this is not a overnight fix and he and the engineers are baffled... lol.


I do remember certain quarters heavily criticising Hamilton for not being able to set up a car and copying Jensons set ups and how because of that he wasn't a rounded driver - all valid criticisms but the same standards aren't applied with Button himself when he fails to get his car working - be good to see more even handedness from those people.

I still fully believe that these tyres are creating a lottery myself so don't think Jenson fans should be too hard on him.



Well he struggled in the brawn after it wasn't light years ahead anymore with the DDD. Really we have seen is the 2011 season where the ferrari, hamilton, and webber weren't very strong. Spain was "Vintage" Button. I expect to see more like that much like 2009 with brawn although he won't have 7 wins to keep him up top.

This will be the year we see button supporting Hamilton in the wdc. mark my words.

#3599 Sinceref189

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:36

It is. Also, Lewis is hard on the brakes which naturally would put more downward pressure on the fronts. I assume this is part of the reason for JB changing his brakes during the course of the weekend.

well spotted Maverick69 :up: Some of the people on here have given me so much f1 jargon its not even funny , very infomated i learn so much from others input and analysis . This is one of the reasons im here cheers guys :)

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#3600 maverick69

maverick69
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  • 4,735 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:54

well spotted Maverick69 :up: Some of the people on here have given me so much f1 jargon its not even funny , very infomated i learn so much from others input and analysis . This is one of the reasons im here cheers guys :)


Cheers mate.

There's a thriving community on here and F1 Technical for example that enjoy speculating about the technical aspects of the sport.

Sometimes we're right..... Sometimes we're way off...... But It's always good fun!