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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#3601 BinaryDad

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:55

The front wing is not being worked as hard - not pushing the tyres into the track as much.

JB has very smooth inputs...... Which will not energize the tyres as much...... I guess......


I would say that having less downforce, means more moving around, which means friction and more heat.

Perhaps this is why Jenson was suffering from understeer with more front wing, with smooth steering inputs. The tires weren't coming up to operating temps, so the rubber wouldn't have been "on" and the air pressure would have been a bit low adding to the problem (probably causing unwanted wear too).


Lewis has adapted pretty well to the 2012 tires, but it would seem that Jenson may also have some adapting to do as well. It's almost as if he's expecting the rubber to behave in much the same way as 2009/2010 rubber with regards to setup. Maybe he needs to learn to use a bit more aggression with the steering in these circumstances.


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#3602 maverick69

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 21:05

I would say that having less downforce, means more moving around, which means friction and more heat.


I get where you are coming from..... But rub the palm of your hand on your carpet rapidly, but lightly.... Then do the same with more applied pressure........

Oh er!

#3603 MP422

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 21:14

Does anyone think JB would have a lot of trouble in a car that is very kind to it's tires like the Lotus or the Sauber ?

#3604 Markn93

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 21:18

Does anyone think JB would have a lot of trouble in a car that is very kind to it's tires like the Lotus or the Sauber ?


Yes, it's possible, but that's not an indictment of JB, rather these tyres.

I think anyone on any given week can struggle, or on the other do what Lewis did last race if they find the 'sweet spot'.

Edited by Markn93, 14 May 2012 - 21:18.


#3605 tommyhjortasen

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 21:26

I get where you are coming from..... But rub the palm of your hand on your carpet rapidly, but lightly.... Then do the same with more applied pressure........

Oh er!


Less downforce it is, moore downforce less moving and less wear.

Edited by tommyhjortasen, 14 May 2012 - 21:27.


#3606 inca_roads

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 22:28

In the interest of balance, Whitmarsh praised Lewis highly in the post-race press release. Reading other reports, it seems he appreciated Hamilton's support before the race - MW seemed to be feeling the pressure following the qualifying debacle, from what I saw.

Also, just watched the majority of the race replay via Hamilton's onboard camera. Re-affirmed that he drove with a great deal of intelligence, which is not something he has had a lot of credit for. Judgement of overtaking/when not to push it was absolutely spot on throughout.

#3607 Markn93

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 22:29

In the interest of balance, Whitmarsh praised Lewis highly in the post-race press release. Reading other reports, it seems he appreciated Hamilton's support before the race - MW seemed to be feeling the pressure following the qualifying debacle, from what I saw.

Also, just watched the majority of the race replay via Hamilton's onboard camera. Re-affirmed that he drove with a great deal of intelligence, which is not something he has had a lot of credit for. Judgement of overtaking/when not to push it was absolutely spot on throughout.


Sorry for OT but how?

#3608 robefc

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 22:34

In the interest of balance, Whitmarsh praised Lewis highly in the post-race press release. Reading other reports, it seems he appreciated Hamilton's support before the race - MW seemed to be feeling the pressure following the qualifying debacle, from what I saw.

Also, just watched the majority of the race replay via Hamilton's onboard camera. Re-affirmed that he drove with a great deal of intelligence, which is not something he has had a lot of credit for. Judgement of overtaking/when not to push it was absolutely spot on throughout.


Blimey, gushing in that statement and being compared to Fangio in the Guardian...quite clearly mr dastardly has been reading this thread, realised his grand plan was becoming a tad obvious and has gone into cover up mode...I imagine he is currently snuggled up between Jessica and Jenson and apologising, 'with hindsight JB I should have done a better job of hiding my admiration and adoration for you...'

Whitmarsh said of Hamilton: "I have to say he had some greatness I had not seen before. By the end of our chat he was consoling me. To say I was disappointed is a modest expression of what I felt.

"He was saying we win and lose as a team. He was a great, great driver this weekend. To be a great driver like Fangio you need greatness in handling setbacks, challenges off the track, and he has excelled in that. My affection and admiration for Lewis have been enhanced by events this weekend.


http://www.guardian....itmarsh-mclaren

#3609 inca_roads

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 22:43

Sorry for OT but how?


On Sky - they showed a race replay tonight, and all of the extra feeds they have available during the race (live) were available on the replay. Hamilton's onboard was one of those feeds for nearly the entire race.

#3610 Markn93

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 22:44

On Sky - they showed a race replay tonight, and all of the extra feeds they have available during the race (live) were available on the replay. Hamilton's onboard was one of those feeds for nearly the entire race.


Yeah, I watched it live. Didn't realise you could access those on the race replays :up:

Edited by Markn93, 14 May 2012 - 22:45.


#3611 Sinceref189

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 22:55

Blimey, gushing in that statement and being compared to Fangio in the Guardian...quite clearly mr dastardly has been reading this thread, realised his grand plan was becoming a tad obvious and has gone into cover up mode...I imagine he is currently snuggled up between Jessica and Jenson and apologising, 'with hindsight JB I should have done a better job of hiding my admiration and adoration for you...'

Whitmarsh said of Hamilton: "I have to say he had some greatness I had not seen before. By the end of our chat he was consoling me. To say I was disappointed is a modest expression of what I felt.

"He was saying we win and lose as a team. He was a great, great driver this weekend. To be a great driver like Fangio you need greatness in handling setbacks, challenges off the track, and he has excelled in that. My affection and admiration for Lewis have been enhanced by events this weekend.


http://www.guardian....itmarsh-mclaren

Abit harsh but anyway :rotfl: some people on here.

#3612 Dalton007

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:35

I wouldn't be surprised if Jenson is quick in Monaco -- I think he will be. He's pretty good there, but then these pesky tyres... who bloody knows? LOL

#3613 GlenP

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:45

No your looking at it with bias :love: . Barcelona is the litmus test for F1 as it's a aero dependent circuit and a happy testing ground for all the teams. It shakes out the fastest cars.

Did you see JB's comments post race ? something along the lines of "i was just slow"...then he added this is not a overnight fix and he and the engineers are baffled... lol.

I specifically mentioned to Mav that I tended to agree that Barcelona ws a more typical circuit. You ignored that to try and make your own spin.

Even so, we still have had too few races to judge properly. 5 is not a sample.

I did get Jenson's comments. Don't know why they warrant that most stupid of retorts; the lol. There is a technical answer that they are searching for, for sure. There is a lot that all of F1 doesn't understand, for sure. In the same way tat Jenson doesn't know why he was slow at Barcelona, Williams don't really know why they were so good and so-on. If I were you I'd save the lols and the gloating, because until these issues are understood it could easily be any driver that has a bad weekend.

#3614 Gareth

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:45

Blimey, gushing in that statement and being compared to Fangio in the Guardian...quite clearly mr dastardly has been reading this thread, realised his grand plan was becoming a tad obvious and has gone into cover up mode...I imagine he is currently snuggled up between Jessica and Jenson and apologising, 'with hindsight JB I should have done a better job of hiding my admiration and adoration for you...'

Whitmarsh said of Hamilton: "I have to say he had some greatness I had not seen before. By the end of our chat he was consoling me. To say I was disappointed is a modest expression of what I felt.

"He was saying we win and lose as a team. He was a great, great driver this weekend. To be a great driver like Fangio you need greatness in handling setbacks, challenges off the track, and he has excelled in that. My affection and admiration for Lewis have been enhanced by events this weekend.


http://www.guardian....itmarsh-mclaren

IMO it shows a couple of things (all speculation, I accept!)

1. That people's perception of Whitmarsh's feelings towards his two drivers haven't been far wrong in the past - he liked Jenson more and it crept into his interviews (I'm absolutely sure it did not creep into any decisions made by the team or anything important).

2. Whitmarsh's feelings clearly had a lot to do with the attitude of his respective drivers. And 2012 Lewis is right up Whitmarsh's street, in the same way that Jenson has been the past couple of seasons (and I'm sure continues to be).

To me, it's another advantage Hamilton's new approach is bringing him, along with the improved on track performances - getting the team behind you is a big part of this sport, people are only human and are going to react to what they perceive as being a team player or not.

Shame Hamilton didn't get this sorted earlier, but I'm glad he seems to have turned things around. There's always been a bit of criticism of him that he never served an apprenticeship in one of the lower teams - I wonder if last year's struggles may end up being that for him, and have made him a much better all round F1 pilot. I've certainly been extremely impressed so far this season.

#3615 maverick69

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:06

IMO it shows a couple of things (all speculation, I accept!)

1. That people's perception of Whitmarsh's feelings towards his two drivers haven't been far wrong in the past - he liked Jenson more and it crept into his interviews (I'm absolutely sure it did not creep into any decisions made by the team or anything important).

2. Whitmarsh's feelings clearly had a lot to do with the attitude of his respective drivers. And 2012 Lewis is right up Whitmarsh's street, in the same way that Jenson has been the past couple of seasons (and I'm sure continues to be).

To me, it's another advantage Hamilton's new approach is bringing him, along with the improved on track performances - getting the team behind you is a big part of this sport, people are only human and are going to react to what they perceive as being a team player or not.

Shame Hamilton didn't get this sorted earlier, but I'm glad he seems to have turned things around. There's always been a bit of criticism of him that he never served an apprenticeship in one of the lower teams - I wonder if last year's struggles may end up being that for him, and have made him a much better all round F1 pilot. I've certainly been extremely impressed so far this season.


Indeed.

I also think that getting Didier Coton on board was an inspired choice - a choice that he is now reaping the benefits of.

#3616 GlenP

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:16

Quite rightly, most Lewis fans are full of enthusiasm for this more mature approach. A balance in the way he races - not over-driving. Much better judgement and a more cool head. A different demeanor. In all, much more than just speed, but speed undiminished when needed.

Needless to say there was not much enthusiasm for those ideas when people like myself dared to call for them two years ago. Whatever - I'm happy to see that he is growing. Full praise to him for it.

#3617 robefc

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:32

IMO it shows a couple of things (all speculation, I accept!)

1. That people's perception of Whitmarsh's feelings towards his two drivers haven't been far wrong in the past - he liked Jenson more and it crept into his interviews (I'm absolutely sure it did not creep into any decisions made by the team or anything important).

2. Whitmarsh's feelings clearly had a lot to do with the attitude of his respective drivers. And 2012 Lewis is right up Whitmarsh's street, in the same way that Jenson has been the past couple of seasons (and I'm sure continues to be).

To me, it's another advantage Hamilton's new approach is bringing him, along with the improved on track performances - getting the team behind you is a big part of this sport, people are only human and are going to react to what they perceive as being a team player or not.

Shame Hamilton didn't get this sorted earlier, but I'm glad he seems to have turned things around. There's always been a bit of criticism of him that he never served an apprenticeship in one of the lower teams - I wonder if last year's struggles may end up being that for him, and have made him a much better all round F1 pilot. I've certainly been extremely impressed so far this season.


I find the whole relationship between MW and Lewis intriguing.

From what I understand he was closer to Lewis and Anthony and had more involvement than Ron did in Lewis's pre-F1 career at macca. They've obviously had run ins in the past when they disagreed on Lewis not going straight to GP2, although one assumes that was more between Martin and Anthony than Lewis.

Then Lewis came in and was the golden boy in F1...and during times he struggled since then (I'm thinking particularly of liegate, hoongate and last year) Martin seemed very protective of Lewis in interviews, defending him constantly.

It seems clear there has been a change in relationship between Lewis and the team (and his father come to that) since 2008/09 or so, I guess Martin couldn't fail to be affected by that, particularly as Jenson seems a genuinely good bloke and team player, obviously more balanced and more mature than Lewis, perhaps he was a bit of fresh air for Martin.

Some members on here seem to have some inside information that there has been tension between the two of them for some time, although personally I don't detect it so much from interviews etc, as I said he seems to defend Lewis a lot when things go wrong and I tend to put any lack of praise when Lewis does well down to the level of expectation.

It would be nice if 2011 was the culmination of his 'growing pains' and he has now matured both as man and a racing driver - back close with his father, back close with the team and back to driving consistently quickly but measured as per 2007 and 2010.

Love it if Anthony's words quoted in this thread or another recently re: 'the new Lewis hamilton' were bang on, I'm actually getting excited typing this post - how sad is that?! Anyhow, I was concerned before the race that it could lead to a monaco 2011 type performance and derailing of his season as per last year...really impressed with his performance and his attitude, clearly Martin is too, long may it continue...


#3618 as65p

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:50

IMO it shows a couple of things (all speculation, I accept!)

1. That people's perception of Whitmarsh's feelings towards his two drivers haven't been far wrong in the past - he liked Jenson more and it crept into his interviews (I'm absolutely sure it did not creep into any decisions made by the team or anything important).

2. Whitmarsh's feelings clearly had a lot to do with the attitude of his respective drivers. And 2012 Lewis is right up Whitmarsh's street, in the same way that Jenson has been the past couple of seasons (and I'm sure continues to be).

To me, it's another advantage Hamilton's new approach is bringing him, along with the improved on track performances - getting the team behind you is a big part of this sport, people are only human and are going to react to what they perceive as being a team player or not.

Shame Hamilton didn't get this sorted earlier, but I'm glad he seems to have turned things around. There's always been a bit of criticism of him that he never served an apprenticeship in one of the lower teams - I wonder if last year's struggles may end up being that for him, and have made him a much better all round F1 pilot. I've certainly been extremely impressed so far this season.


I don't think people can change like that, from spoiled brat to examplary teamplayer in the space of 3 months or so. No question that so far this season he's making all the right noises at the right times, but the reason for that is most likely that he get's better advice these days, be it from his father or his management. As long as he can keep the discipline to follow that, it's all that's needed, yet I wouldn't bet on the 2011 LH not surfacing again at some point, depending on how the WDC battle develops.

Of course you'd expect me to say that.  ;)


#3619 GlenP

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:54

Just one little perspective point:

Button clearly needs to lean on these tyres a bit harder, or in a different way, to get them to work. That's Button's job to do/problem to deal with.

Before Barcelona a lot of Lewis fans were complaining that the tyres didn't allow him to do his stuff. Why is the first example Button's problem, yet the second one is Pirelli's fault?

The only difference is where you stand when you look a it. I believe both examples are primarily down to the drivers.

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#3620 maverick69

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:00

I don't think people can change like that, from spoiled brat to examplary teamplayer in the space of 3 months or so. No question that so far this season he's making all the right noises at the right times, but the reason for that is most likely that he get's better advice these days, be it from his father or his management. As long as he can keep the discipline to follow that, it's all that's needed, yet I wouldn't bet on the 2011 LH not surfacing again at some point, depending on how the WDC battle develops.

Of course you'd expect me to say that. ;)


Of course.........


#3621 bub

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:01

Just one little perspective point:

Button clearly needs to lean on these tyres a bit harder, or in a different way, to get them to work. That's Button's job to do/problem to deal with.

Before Barcelona a lot of Lewis fans were complaining that the tyres didn't allow him to do his stuff. Why is the first example Button's problem, yet the second one is Pirelli's fault?

The only difference is where you stand when you look a it. I believe both examples are primarily down to the drivers.



It's not. People either blame the tyres or say its the same for everyone, adapt etc.

#3622 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:02

That's exactly what I said as well and I don't see how one could disagree. I'm not tackling anything, just pointing out that I'm not going to use it as an excuse for anything.

:up:

There are excuses and explanations - people on messageboards like the word 'excuse' because we're all trying to one up each other and win arguments, if people can be less emotive then often we're just looking at explanations, though people do make up excuses on here, I'm sure I've done it before myself.

#3623 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:03

How can it be a valid criticism when the validity of the claim is suspect?


Elaborate.

#3624 maverick69

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:05

Just one little perspective point:

Button clearly needs to lean on these tyres a bit harder, or in a different way, to get them to work. That's Button's job to do/problem to deal with.

Before Barcelona a lot of Lewis fans were complaining that the tyres didn't allow him to do his stuff. Why is the first example Button's problem, yet the second one is Pirelli's fault?

The only difference is where you stand when you look a it. I believe both examples are primarily down to the drivers.


Firstly - I've always said that the "tyre eater" issue was mostly bollocks. Lewis' poor form last year was not really down to his tyre management - but rather his head management.

Secondly - they do negate one of his stand out strengths/characteristics.... the ability charge and to bang in "qualy laps" for most of a race. That is without question.

Luckily his other key facet, adaptability, has taken more of a premium with these tyres.

#3625 GlenP

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:16

Firstly - I've always said that the "tyre eater" issue was mostly bollocks. Lewis' poor form last year was not really down to his tyre management - but rather his head management.

Secondly - they do negate one of his stand out strengths/characteristics.... the ability charge and to bang in "qualy laps" for most of a race. That is without question.

Luckily his other key facet, adaptability, has taken more of a premium with these tyres.

1 Agree

2 Why is it significant if the tyres negate a Hamilton strength, but Button's problem if they go against his style? Perspective.

3 Ham did adapt brilliantly last weekend. The tyre effect is so random and ill-understood though that I would hold back before reaching a bigger conclusion.

#3626 Gareth

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:22

I don't think people can change like that, from spoiled brat to examplary teamplayer in the space of 3 months or so. No question that so far this season he's making all the right noises at the right times, but the reason for that is most likely that he get's better advice these days, be it from his father or his management.

I don't think either of the descriptions are fair in their extremity, so I wouldn't see the change as that big. I think it's more a question of not allowing himself to get frustrated by aspects outside of his control than a question of him changing from spoilt brat to team player. I think the consequences of removing those frustrations from his outlook is a change in attitude that gives off the impression of team player rather than spoilt brat. I think it's more about perception than fundamental qualities, so I don't think the change is as big as you think.

yet I wouldn't bet on the 2011 LH not surfacing again at some point, depending on how the WDC battle develops.

I think he's surfaced already, when he overtook Rosberg in Bahrain. Fortunately it worked out on track and (probably thanks to Alonso :D ) with the stewards too!

Of course you'd expect me to say that. ;)

:lol: :up: It'd be boring with everyone just agreeing, though ;)

#3627 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:37

Just one little perspective point:

Button clearly needs to lean on these tyres a bit harder, or in a different way, to get them to work. That's Button's job to do/problem to deal with.

Before Barcelona a lot of Lewis fans were complaining that the tyres didn't allow him to do his stuff. Why is the first example Button's problem, yet the second one is Pirelli's fault?

The only difference is where you stand when you look a it. I believe both examples are primarily down to the drivers.


I see it the other way round - see Dalton up there saying who knows with these crazy tyres (Button fan) do you think he/she would have made that comment with Lewis struggling? Nope - Lewis did well this weekend and is leading Button in the Championship - seeing Button struggle on these tyres only affirms my opinion on the tyres - I don't like them.

People that have complained about the Pirelli's have been labelled as whining fanboys by a certain group who say that it's up to the driver, now if Button ends up struggling you should expect those same people to apply that argument with him.

While I agree that it's up to the driver that doesn't prevent me from hating these Pirelli's!

#3628 GlenP

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:40

I just expect people to apply the same argument consistently, rather than cherry-pick their stance according to which driver they are referring to!

#3629 fieraku

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:43

I don't think people can change like that, from spoiled brat to examplary teamplayer in the space of 3 months or so. No question that so far this season he's making all the right noises at the right times, but the reason for that is most likely that he get's better advice these days, be it from his father or his management. As long as he can keep the discipline to follow that, it's all that's needed, yet I wouldn't bet on the 2011 LH not surfacing again at some point, depending on how the WDC battle develops.

Of course you'd expect me to say that. ;)


Lewis took my advice one year too late ;)

Lewis needs to remember his only win this year and how he did it! Midway through the race he was 7-8th? He doesn't need to win the race in the first corner or in the first 5 laps. He needs to play a good chess game.

My point was that he didn't try high risk moves and took his time.He needs to race his own race and worry less what others are doing.Lewis needs to accept the fact that sometimes even he can't catch Vettel but he can try and get the 18 points instead of a DNF.

I'm sure it will resume to normal business he's too talented, but at rare occasions his talent and his self belief that he can overtake anyone anywhere becomes a reliability.Moving forward he doesn't need to be at "the wrong place at the wrong time",he needs to find that perfect place and time he often does.


I did tell you, trogggy,pnsd,asp and co that when Hammer puts his mind&heart into it and focuses 100% he'll be untouchable.Ya'll said we were making excuses for him when personal problems were brought up.

If Hammer keeps this up and stays on the right path he's the 2012 WDC easily.McLaren can't mess all 20 races,can they? :lol:

#3630 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:49

I just expect people to apply the same argument consistently, rather than cherry-pick their stance according to which driver they are referring to!


But it can be a reply to what have amounted to personal attacks - slightly facetious, I'm not a whining fanboy complaining because my driver isn't doing well - I just dislike these tyres, I prefer aggressive racing and see many of the overtakes as superficial now - this is purely personal taste. My position has never changed - to be successful all the drivers have to adapt to the current regs which are the same for everyone, however because all drivers have different styles some will find themselves having to adapt far more to certain regulations. It's my belief that Hamiltons strongest skills have been neutered by these Pirelli's so he's lost some of his best weapons - that's not an excuse for anything just something I believe to be a fact.

I personally think he's done a fantastic job of adapting - he won three races last year and his main problems didn't come from a failure to grasp his rubber but his own on track errors and involvement in too many incidents.

#3631 gincarnated

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:56

The praise of Lewis' performance on Sunday is getting a bit ridiculous. You'd this it was the first time he's come from the back or had to make a set of tyres last for an extended number of laps. This is something he has to to at least 2 times every season, usually due to some ridiculous muck up, and he normally pulls it off just as supurbly as he did last weekend.



#3632 GlenP

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:56

I don't particularly disagree, ImDDAA, on the subject of Hamilton.

My point is that you empathise with Hamilton's mis-match of driving style to current tyres, but not Button's. Button's style seems not to get the heat into them.

Ultimately its up to each of them to adapt and make they tyres work, but why empathy should be extending in one direction and not another is purely a question of bias.

#3633 fieraku

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:02

Just one little perspective point:

Button clearly needs to lean on these tyres a bit harder, or in a different way, to get them to work. That's Button's job to do/problem to deal with.

Before Barcelona a lot of Lewis fans were complaining that the tyres didn't allow him to do his stuff. Why is the first example Button's problem, yet the second one is Pirelli's fault?


The only difference is where you stand when you look a it. I believe both examples are primarily down to the drivers.


BS,Button didn't just forget how to drive and Mal became a world beater or Ham a tire whisperer,but I'll save rest for the 12 Pirelli threads here.

These tires are Alien to everyone in F1,EVERYONE. Found this gem in last year's thread from my friend :kiss: trogggy who was always on our case about them

Another Hamilton fan calling the tyres shit, and the racing fake. You're near to convincing me that I'm right. :up:


Yes they are as sh** as it gets ;)



#3634 GlenP

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:05

f'ku I agree that the tyres are random.

That is why it is wrong to confidently claim that Hamilton has got them sussed. And equally wrong to lay all of the blame for Button's poor performance at Button's feet.

That's what I have been saying!

#3635 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:06

I don't particularly disagree, ImDDAA, on the subject of Hamilton.

My point is that you empathise with Hamilton's mis-match of driving style to current tyres, but not Button's. Button's style seems not to get the heat into them.

Ultimately its up to each of them to adapt and make they tyres work, but why empathy should be extending in one direction and not another is purely a question of bias.


I do empathise with Button - don't speak for me, go and look at what I've said about him - I'm just not convinced he actually has a problem with these tyres after one bad race - neither driver was great in Bahrain and Button will have probably at least one race in a season where he's abnormally off - I'm not saying I'm sure he isn't struggling with the tyres (at every track - he definitely struggled with them this weekend), I just haven't seen enough yet to conclude it's a real issue for him - I also feel like the Pirelli's are a bit of a lottery anyway hence the season we've been witnessing.

No bias from me, I'm a Button fan too.

#3636 maverick69

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:06

I don't particularly disagree, ImDDAA, on the subject of Hamilton.

My point is that you empathise with Hamilton's mis-match of driving style to current tyres, but not Button's. Button's style seems not to get the heat into them.

Ultimately its up to each of them to adapt and make they tyres work, but why empathy should be extending in one direction and not another is purely a question of bias.


I think that's what I have been doing?

#3637 Peter Perfect

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:09

I would say that having less downforce, means more moving around, which means friction and more heat.

Perhaps this is why Jenson was suffering from understeer with more front wing, with smooth steering inputs. The tires weren't coming up to operating temps, so the rubber wouldn't have been "on" and the air pressure would have been a bit low adding to the problem (probably causing unwanted wear too).


Lewis has adapted pretty well to the 2012 tires, but it would seem that Jenson may also have some adapting to do as well. It's almost as if he's expecting the rubber to behave in much the same way as 2009/2010 rubber with regards to setup. Maybe he needs to learn to use a bit more aggression with the steering in these circumstances.


It says it all that he switched brake materials in FP3 to try to get more heat into the tyres under braking. The difference between 'switched on' and cold rubber appears to be magnitudes in terms of performance and taking such a drastic step right before qualifying must have been a panic decision. As I said in another thread it'll be interesting to see if he sticks with the same material as Hamilton or goes back to what he's traditionally been comfortable with.

#3638 robefc

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:40

I don't think either of the descriptions are fair in their extremity, so I wouldn't see the change as that big. I think it's more a question of not allowing himself to get frustrated by aspects outside of his control than a question of him changing from spoilt brat to team player. I think the consequences of removing those frustrations from his outlook is a change in attitude that gives off the impression of team player rather than spoilt brat. I think it's more about perception than fundamental qualities, so I don't think the change is as big as you think.


The one big difference to last year is that there isn't a driver in another car shooting off into the lead of the WDC/every race. I guess the mistakes etc are easier to take when you have a competitive car and in with a shout of the WDC.

Alternatively you could argue the frustration should be greater as a genuine opportunity is potentially being squandered but I think it was RB/Vettel that really got to Lewis last season, he knows he's got a great chance right now.

#3639 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:59

I just think most drivers are competitive - when under pressure and when races go badly for them sometimes some of them will react badly - see Vettel after Malaysia - calling another driver an idiot and refusing to apologise, I don't hold it against him but when he's winning you see no sign of that side of him. Button handled his bad race well but then he's had years of driving shit cars so I expect him to have far more perspective.

Lewis will have grown from last year but to describe him as a brat is childish nonsense.

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#3640 Dalton007

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 13:08

The one thing Jenson shouldn't have done is change brake material on Saturday. He was very happy with the car after second practice. When he changed the set-up of his car on Saturday, that's when the problems crept in. He got done over in a couple of braking areas. I still think getting your car up on the first row gives you the best chance, whatever tyre you start with.

#3641 btrader

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 13:12

Quite rightly, most Lewis fans are full of enthusiasm for this more mature approach. A balance in the way he races - not over-driving. Much better judgement and a more cool head. A different demeanor. In all, much more than just speed, but speed undiminished when needed.

Needless to say there was not much enthusiasm for those ideas when people like myself dared to call for them two years ago. Whatever - I'm happy to see that he is growing. Full praise to him for it.


I prefer the old Lewis, crusing and collecting might be fun to some but not me. Alonso, Button, the new Lewis dont excite me as drivers. I prefer the Vettels, Webbers, Kobayashi

#3642 GlenP

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 13:13

I prefer the old Lewis, crusing and collecting might be fun to some but not me. Alonso, Button, the new Lewis dont excite me as drivers. I prefer the Vettels, Webbers, Kobayashi

He hasn't cruised!

What you saying - he could go faster and get higher places if he chose to?

#3643 Clatter

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 13:17

I prefer the old Lewis, crusing and collecting might be fun to some but not me. Alonso, Button, the new Lewis dont excite me as drivers. I prefer the Vettels, Webbers, Kobayashi


So you think he was cruising in the last race? :rolleyes:

#3644 as65p

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 15:05

I don't think either of the descriptions are fair in their extremity, so I wouldn't see the change as that big. I think it's more a question of not allowing himself to get frustrated by aspects outside of his control than a question of him changing from spoilt brat to team player. I think the consequences of removing those frustrations from his outlook is a change in attitude that gives off the impression of team player rather than spoilt brat. I think it's more about perception than fundamental qualities, so I don't think the change is as big as you think.


Agreed, but remember it was you who described whatever change happened as 'turning things around'. I don't think either he has changed much (do people ever?), just did a much better PR job so far. Which still remains, well... PR, one way or the other. For example, I don't judge Alonsos commitment at Ferrari by his public statements either, but by how he presses on on track. That's all that matters in the end.

The really interesting indications always happen on track, not in the press. At least twice this season (Melbourne and Malaysia) LH appeared to chose a safe podium over the win-or-bust approach of former years, I reckon last sunday he was spared the safe/risky choice by Massa getting a timely penalty. That might benefit him in WDC battles, but OTOH will we see wins like China 2011 again?

I think he's surfaced already, when he overtook Rosberg in Bahrain. Fortunately it worked out on track and (probably thanks to Alonso :D ) with the stewards too!

:lol: :up: It'd be boring with everyone just agreeing, though ;)


Yup, but I don't think we need to worry about that. ;)

Edited by as65p, 15 May 2012 - 15:06.


#3645 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 15:16

The really interesting indications always happen on track, not in the press. At least twice this season (Melbourne and Malaysia) LH appeared to chose a safe podium over the win-or-bust approach of former years,

With regard to Malaysia, Fieraku already posted a radio message indicating Lewis wasn't settling for anything, he was getting the maximum out of the car.

#3646 as65p

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 15:25

With regard to Malaysia, Fieraku already posted a radio message indicating Lewis wasn't settling for anything, he was getting the maximum out of the car.


Well, my point was to pay less attention to messages, radio or otherwise. Sometimes I think people would get a more realistic picture of F1 by muting the TV during races. If it wouldn't feels so very odd without engine noise...  ;)

#3647 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 15:30

Well, my point was to pay less attention to messages, radio or otherwise. Sometimes I think people would get a more realistic picture of F1 by muting the TV during races. If it wouldn't feels so very odd without engine noise... ;)

Oh really, so a driver happy to cruise and settle for a position will get on the blower to his race engineer asking where he can find more time. Your post seems quite short sighted. People need to pay attention to the information and facts available to help form an informed opinion.

#3648 maverick69

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 15:35

Oh really, so a driver happy to cruise and settle for a position will get on the blower to his race engineer asking where he can find more time. Your post seems quite short sighted. People need to pay attention to the information and facts available to help form an informed opinion.


Come on. Asspie has practically admitted that he watches F1 with his fingers in his ears whilst making broom-broom noises :lol:

#3649 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 15:57

Come on. Asspie has practically admitted that he watches F1 with his fingers in his ears whilst making broom-broom noises :lol:

:lol:

#3650 ImDDAA

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 16:24

Lewis made no progression on the lead at Malaysia - he would definitely have gone for the win if it was possible.

Edited by ImDDAA, 15 May 2012 - 16:24.