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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#3801 P123

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 15:51

After 2 races it looked like JB had closed the gap in quali so not sure how EBD explanation fits in with that?


In the first two races LH set his quali time on his first run. JB's came on his second Q3 runs so perhaps that in some way explains the closer gaps.

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#3802 mlsnoopy

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 15:52

There is something going on .. IMO... the quali gap suddenly got bigger ... and either LH improved, JB decreased (both of which I consider the least likely explanation) or something else has happened.

... hey, I'm an equal opportunity conspiracy theorist :cool:


The gap appeared in China it was just overshadowed by the team mistakes.

#3803 BillBald

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 15:54

JB is just a victim of the close grid. He was 0.35s off LH in Spain Q2 and today 0.4s off LH in Q2. Any other year that's only a couple of positions.


Today he was also a victim of a strange strategy in Q2. His second run was for a total of 7 laps (including in and out laps).

The thinking must have been that he would have pace to spare to get into Q3, and they were avoiding the risk of traffic ruining his laps (which could happen with a shorter run). But as it turned out, he didn't have the pace with that much fuel onboard. And by the end of the stint, he didn't have the tyres.



#3804 MinT

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:00

As a Button fan - I have to say his "I am mystified again" comments just dont cut it this business of the car feeling good in practice and nowhere in quali each race just smacks of choking - stop the moaning, forget worrying about how the car feels and just get stuck in - like Hami and Alonso do.

Very disappointing.

#3805 PretentiousBread

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:06

Nah, he had race winning pace in Oz and China with this car, he's got some technical issue that they haven't solved yet. Look at Vettel, nowhere today and Webbers on pole.


I'm talking about when rear instability is an issue. The EBD accounted for a large proportion of the balance of the car and made it easier to fine tune it. Last year Button described driving around Monaco with the EBD 'like a big go-kart'. He would point it and the rear would stick, allowing him to demonstrate his innate speed. He doesn't have this any more so it's more difficult keeping the balance as he likes it.

I talked about this earlier this season:

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5616379

#3806 fieraku

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:08

The truth is he still has more points than Lewis over 43 races, that's a big sample, only a very stupid person would describe that as owned.

2010 there was a 3team/5driver fight,in 2011 a 2team/4driver fight,so there wasn't much in terms of positions being gained or lost,neither one of those drivers would not finish lower than 5th under normal circumstances no matter how crap they were,nor would they qualify lower,the gaps were massive.


2012 there are 7-8 teams within tenths of each other,and I did mention this last year more than once.When the grid is very close JB lack of speed will hurt him massively,he simply doesn't have the luxury of half a second to a full second gap to the next team thus he's looking average in qualifying.


The first two seasons the teams were too spread apart thus JB looked ''good'' vs Ham as he'd qualify only a spot behind even though the gap was the usual 2-3 tenths.
Now 2-3 tenths leaves you in 13th,so JB's problem is not new.The only difference is that along with the other 5 guys he had to fight on Saturdays for the past 2 years this season there are 7-8 more legitimate contestants.



#3807 BernieEc

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:13

The truth is he still has more points than Lewis over 43 races, that's a big sample, only a very stupid person would describe that as owned.


And Lewis has more points than him over his career pound for pound..........thats a bigger sample....only an ignorant and self deluded person will ignore that.....ditto

#3808 timmy bolt

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:14

I think JB's issues are the tyres, he couldn't feel sufficient grip to have the required confidence to commit to those corners and if that is the case, he will keep having that problem for a while just like he said.

The things is any F1 driver will look fast if they have the car underneath them like JB wants it. LH crushing him in the same car isn't going to aid JB's recovery one bit.

So much for the fallacy these Pirellis will suit JB more than LH...



I don't think you can really state an (informed) opinion in the first line and use as evidence to support a statement about the tyres suiting a driver that you did in the last part...

Anyway, what tyres suit who is all relative, you could put forward the assumption that Hamilton on the Bridgestone would be enjoying the same advantage in the race as he presently does in quali.

#3809 hunnylander

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:14

JB is just a victim of the close grid. He was 0.35s off LH in Spain Q2 and today 0.4s off LH in Q2. Any other year that's only a couple of positions.

This too!

Both Monaco and Barcelona are amongst LH's strong tracks. Also the weather, temps. JB is suffering more with the Pirellis in the European weather.

#3810 BernieEc

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:22

This too!

Both Monaco and Barcelona are amongst LH's strong tracks. Also the weather, temps. JB is suffering more with the Pirellis in the European weather.


But the "urban myth" was that he is kinder to the tires and knows how to work them in comparison to Lewis.

Edited by BernieEc, 26 May 2012 - 16:23.


#3811 TallyHo

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:23

2010 there was a 3team/5driver fight,in 2011 a 2team/4driver fight,so there wasn't much in terms of positions being gained or lost,neither one of those drivers would not finish lower than 5th under normal circumstances no matter how crap they were,nor would they qualify lower,the gaps were massive.


2012 there are 7-8 teams within tenths of each other,and I did mention this last year more than once.When the grid is very close JB lack of speed will hurt him massively,he simply doesn't have the luxury of half a second to a full second gap to the next team thus he's looking average in qualifying.


The first two seasons the teams were too spread apart thus JB looked ''good'' vs Ham as he'd qualify only a spot behind even though the gap was the usual 2-3 tenths.
Now 2-3 tenths leaves you in 13th,so JB's problem is not new.The only difference is that along with the other 5 guys he had to fight on Saturdays for the past 2 years this season there are 7-8 more legitimate contestants.

If JB was his usual 2 Tenths off Hamilton he would have been 5th on the grid not 13th, he's in 13th because he was a Full 1 second off Hamiltons qualifying.

I don't buy the lack off the EBD as an excuse either, otherwise how would you explain Button demolishing Hamilton in Aus.

Something has seriously changed since Malaysia.

What's also strange, is Vettels lack of pace, aswell as Kimis. very strange. Vettels on Pole 1 week, then struggling to make Q1 the next :drunk:

#3812 TallyHo

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:24

And Lewis has more points than him over his career pound for pound..........thats a bigger sample....only an ignorant and self deluded person will ignore that.....ditto

:lol:

#3813 bauss

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:27

It could also be that JB's over sensitivity is hurting him... he is sensing the changes in grip of the Pirellis with every change in track temps...and this is making him not having absolute confidence to push to his max.

But then as many have stated, he is just 3 - 5 tenths behind LH.....which given the loss of EBDs and LH's renewed form is not surprising.

The difference is the grid is very bunched up so every tenth is now golden in terms of grid position.

If Mclaren racing get their act together, LH is best poised to challenge for the WDC this year based on his speed.... he has been freaking consistent this year on Saturdays. On Mclaren's weakest track so far, he still sticks it on the 2nd row outqualifying the stronger looking Ferraris n Lotuses.

Lets hope both have good races tmrw...

#3814 bauss

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:32

If JB was his usual 2 Tenths off Hamilton he would have been 5th on the grid not 13th, he's in 13th because he was a Full 1 second off Hamiltons qualifying.

I don't buy the lack off the EBD as an excuse either, otherwise how would you explain Button demolishing Hamilton in Aus.

Something has seriously changed since Malaysia.

What's also strange, is Vettels lack of pace, aswell as Kimis. very strange. Vettels on Pole 1 week, then struggling to make Q1 the next :drunk:


well, first he did not demolish him.... Hamilton still outqualified JB with his banker Q3 lap....

There are many possible reasons why JB was quicker in the race.

Aus is the first race of the season and drivers and teams are still fine tuning the cars and finding the best ways to drive or set them up, the track is also unique in configuration with alot of straightforward corners.

The trend this year is also something that tends to happen alot for Lewis....In every year apart from 2011, he has gotten stronger relative to his teammate as the year progresses....07 with Alonso, 08 n 09 with Kov, 10 with JB.... he always seems more in tune with upgrades, finds ways to squeeze more pace from the car etc etc

Edited by bauss, 26 May 2012 - 16:36.


#3815 hunnylander

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:32

But the "urban myth" was that he is kinder to the tires and knows how to work them in comparison to Lewis.

He could be kinder to the tyres if those tyres could be put into their optimal working temp range. If you can't heat-up to the right range, or it's overheating from that, you have no chance for managing them with having good pace.

#3816 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:36

Today he was also a victim of a strange strategy in Q2. His second run was for a total of 7 laps (including in and out laps).

The thinking must have been that he would have pace to spare to get into Q3, and they were avoiding the risk of traffic ruining his laps (which could happen with a shorter run). But as it turned out, he didn't have the pace with that much fuel onboard. And by the end of the stint, he didn't have the tyres.

No, nothing to do with it. The pace wasn't there, it was inevitable he'd not get through.

Edited by Lights, 26 May 2012 - 16:49.


#3817 Lazy

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:36

I think button is the new "Massa"

as in as much a bit*h Massa is to Alonso....same way button has been owned by Lewis.....am sorry but its the truth!!



And Lewis has more points than him over his career pound for pound..........thats a bigger sample....only an ignorant and self deluded person will ignore that.....ditto


Except that you were comparing him to Massa as a team mate of Alonso. Doh.

#3818 femi

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:38

I don't think you can really state an (informed) opinion in the first line and use as evidence to support a statement about the tyres suiting a driver that you did in the last part...

Anyway, what tyres suit who is all relative, you could put forward the assumption that Hamilton on the Bridgestone would be enjoying the same advantage in the race as he presently does in quali.


One could reasonably put forward that assumption - as you put it - if LH didn't have the personal issues he had last year. Anyway my reason for describing the stated assumption by some that the Pirellis would suit JB more than LH due to differences in driving styles as fallacy was based on how LH managed to 2 stop during the last race, achieved the result he had, overtook JB who was on faster tyre strategy even though he started way ahead of LH and his (LH) statement afterwards that basically said those who thought JB was better than him at tyre managment were wrong.

I don't mind been accused of choosing to believe him.

#3819 femi

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:40

He could be kinder to the tyres if those tyres could be put into their optimal working temp range. If you can't heat-up to the right range, or it's overheating from that, you have no chance for managing them with having good pace.


Isn't it JB's responsibility to get the tyres to desired working temperature? Wasn't he supposed to be better at car setup?

Edited by femi, 26 May 2012 - 16:48.


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#3820 fieraku

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:41

If JB was his usual 2 Tenths off Hamilton he would have been 5th on the grid not 13th, he's in 13th because he was a Full 1 second off Hamiltons qualifying.

I don't buy the lack off the EBD as an excuse either, otherwise how would you explain Button demolishing Hamilton in Aus.

Something has seriously changed since Malaysia.

What's also strange, is Vettels lack of pace, aswell as Kimis. very strange. Vettels on Pole 1 week, then struggling to make Q1 the next :drunk:


NO!He was 3.7 tenths slower in Q2 which happened at times last year as well but it did not drop him 13th. 2011 Germany e.g he was half a second slower in Q2 and a full second in Q3 but stayed safe in P8 because the cars behind were too far back in performance to challenge.

Nothing's changed,everyone else is fast enough to challenge.That's it.

#3821 hunnylander

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:47

Isn't it JB's responsibility to get the tyre to desired working temperature? Wasn't he supposed to be better at car setup?

It's not just the driver, neither the set-up.

A car can be notoriusly bad tyre-heater in some weather and or on some tracks.

Lewis couldn't get the tyres to optimum in some races this year either. Maybe, not even in Monaco either.

#3822 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:47

This too!

Both Monaco and Barcelona are amongst LH's strong tracks. Also the weather, temps. JB is suffering more with the Pirellis in the European weather.

What does he need then, 15 degrees?

#3823 TallyHo

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:50

NO!He was 3.7 tenths slower in Q2 which happened at times last year as well but it did not drop him 13th. 2011 Germany e.g he was half a second slower in Q2 and a full second in Q3 but stayed safe in P8 because the cars behind were too far back in performance to challenge.

Nothing's changed,everyone else is fast enough to challenge.That's it.

What are you talking about, Buttons fastest time of the weekend was a 1:15.5 and Hamiltons a 14.5. In Q2 Hamilton wasn't showing his true pace, Button was, or do you think he intentionally failed to make it into Q1.

#3824 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:50

Isn't it JB's responsibility to get the tyres to desired working temperature? Wasn't he supposed to be better at car setup?


Yep, fed up of Button apologists. He's not been in the same class as Lewis this year. Button has probably been underperforming by a few tenths, Lewis has been bringing an extra few on top of that, which kind of equals the gap we see between them at the moment.

#3825 femi

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:51

It's not just the driver, neither the set-up.

A car can be notoriusly bad tyre-heater in some weather and or on some tracks.

Lewis couldn't get the tyres to optimum in some races this year either. Maybe, not even in Monaco either.


Which goes to confirm the point that JB is at best an above average driver. If one takes your bolded statement that they both suffer from the same car's ailment and yet JB qualified 9 positions below LH.

#3826 fieraku

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:54

Wasn't he supposed to be better at car setup?


A myth born out of Hamilton detractors,how JB was cleverer,smarter,a setup guru,Napoleon like strategic abilities and more "Cerebral".



#3827 robefc

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:58

In the first two races LH set his quali time on his first run. JB's came on his second Q3 runs so perhaps that in some way explains the closer gaps.


Reasonable point, not sure how much everyone else improved but if you took the difference in their first laps and/or subtracted the average improvement from Lewis's first run time I guess you might end up at a similar gap to subsequent races.

When a driver goes out in q2 it always distorts the picture too in the sense I don't remember the difference in their lap times in q2 but will remember Lewis was 4th to buttons...erm 13th??

#3828 robefc

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 16:59

What are you talking about, Buttons fastest time of the weekend was a 1:15.5 and Hamiltons a 14.5. In Q2 Hamilton wasn't showing his true pace, Button was, or do you think he intentionally failed to make it into Q1.


You think Lewis was pacing himself in Q2?!

#3829 fieraku

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:01

What are you talking about, Buttons fastest time of the weekend was a 1:15.5 and Hamiltons a 14.5. In Q2 Hamilton wasn't showing his true pace, Button was, or do you think he intentionally failed to make it into Q1.

The track got faster in Q3 to the last second.Their true gap is the Q2 one,there's no way in hell that in a slow Monaco track JB is a full second slower,no way.

#3830 fieraku

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:03

You think Lewis was pacing himself in Q2?!

Right.He thought let me put in a lap that's only good for P7 and see what happens.

#3831 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:05

You think Lewis was pacing himself in Q2?!


Look at all the Q2's the last two years versus the Q3's. Hamilton nearly always goes faster in Q3 - of course he's not going to go balls to the wall when he doesn't need to.

Remember Button was a second off the pace of the leader in Q1. He hasn't got it together this year at all...

Edited by bonjon1979a, 26 May 2012 - 17:07.


#3832 TallyHo

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:06

You think Lewis was pacing himself in Q2?!

either that or he had his engine turned down a bit. Button on the other hand was struggling from the get go in Q2. I don't know what the problem is, but JB seriously needs to get on top of it. Or alternatively Button isn't struggling at all and Hamiltons new Happy bubble has given him an extra 8 tenths on him :well:


#3833 Watkins74

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:06

The track got faster in Q3 to the last second. Their true gap is the Q2 one, there's no way in hell that in a slow Monaco track JB is a full second slower, no way.

:up: This.

Edited by Watkins74, 26 May 2012 - 17:07.


#3834 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:06

Look at all the Q2's the last two years versus the Q3's. Hamilton nearly always goes faster in Q3 - of course he's not going to go balls to the wall when he doesn't need to.

Because almost everyone goes faster in Q3 versus Q2. The track becomes quicker.

#3835 PretentiousBread

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:11

Yep, fed up of Button apologists. He's not been in the same class as Lewis this year. Button has probably been underperforming by a few tenths, Lewis has been bringing an extra few on top of that, which kind of equals the gap we see between them at the moment.


It's not that Button's problems aren't his own failings, but there are specific reasons for why he occasionally gets tanked in this way by Hamilton. It's not normal for this to happen.

JB in 2009:

“I hate rear instability on corner entry, it’s not something I can deal with well. If I look at the telemetry and compare what Rubens does in those situations, I can’t do that. If he has rear instability he just throws on a lot of steering lock very suddenly, making the car understeer, and balancing it just right so that by the time the understeer’s reducing you’re into the corner and the transient instability is gone, or has been sort of damped out. I’ve seen it time and time again on the telemetry. When I try to do that, I just lose all feeling for the car; I cannot judge how much to do it by, it just feels so alien.”


If Button was 100% happy with the car as Hamilton is, on average he would only be about 0.1s - 0.150s slower than Hamilton. The biggest difference between them lies more in when JB isn't happy with his car that we see things like today happening. But it's not like he should just 'try harder' or 'get on with it', it just doesn't work like that. He was driving at his own limit today, he was doing the best he could do. People shouldn't expect anything more of him, he can't just become a less sensitive driver. He's not underperforming, you'd have to assume that if he was faced with a car imbalance that he'd not fare much better if he had 100 more attempts at the exact same scenario. As I said, he was driving at his own limit today.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 26 May 2012 - 17:13.


#3836 TallyHo

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:12

The track got faster in Q3 to the last second.Their true gap is the Q2 one,there's no way in hell that in a slow Monaco track JB is a full second slower,no way.

Come on, you're living in a fantasy land, the track didn't improve by 7 Tenths in the space of 10 minutes. The logical explanation would be that drivers turn their engines up and put less fuel in Q3.

You're right, there's no way Lewis is 1 Full second quicker than JB in Monaco, which makes it all the more baffling as to what's happening with JB.

#3837 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:13

Because almost everyone goes faster in Q3 versus Q2. The track becomes quicker.


Plus engine modes are turned up and drivers put it out there, braking a little later, trying to eek out the last few tenths. I agree the track becomes quicker but drivers also put it out there more.

#3838 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:15

It's not that Button's problems aren't his own failings, but there are specific reasons for why he occasionally gets tanked in this way by Hamilton. It's not normal for this to happen.

JB in 2009:



If Button was 100% happy with the car as Hamilton is, on average he would only be about 0.1s - 0.150s slower than Hamilton. The biggest difference between them lies more in when JB isn't happy with his car that we see things like today happening. But it's not like he should just 'try harder' or 'get on with it', it just doesn't work like that. He was driving at his own limit today, he was doing the best he could do. People shouldn't expect anything more of him, he can't just become a less sensitive driver. He's not underperforming, you'd have to assume that if he was faced with a car imbalance that he'd not fare much better if he had 100 more attempts at the exact same scenario. As I said, he was driving at his own limit today.


A driver has to make the best with what they've got. If they're not able to drive with a car that isn't exactly to their liking then that's the driver's failing. Hamilton has the same equipment as button - if he's able to extract more than that's due to his ability as a driver.

#3839 PretentiousBread

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:17

A driver has to make the best with what they've got. If they're not able to drive with a car that isn't exactly to their liking then that's the driver's failing. Hamilton has the same equipment as button - if he's able to extract more than that's due to his ability as a driver.


I already said all of that in the first paragraph of the post you quoted :well:

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#3840 fieraku

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:20

Come on, you're living in a fantasy land, the track didn't improve by 7 Tenths in the space of 10 minutes. The logical explanation would be that drivers turn their engines up and put less fuel in Q3.

You're right, there's no way Lewis is 1 Full second quicker than JB in Monaco, which makes it all the more baffling as to what's happening with JB.


No mate you are :drunk:

Posted Image

Do the maths.

#3841 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:21

I already said all of that in the first paragraph of the post you quoted :well:


Quite. I was making a statement that built on yours - I wasn't disagreeing. You're saying that he's not underperforming - I agree, he just isn't as quick.

#3842 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:22

He's not underperforming, you'd have to assume that if he was faced with a car imbalance that he'd not fare much better if he had 100 more attempts at the exact same scenario. As I said, he was driving at his own limit today.

Still means he underperformed this weekend, because part of his work is getting the car to work in a way he wants, so that he can make use of it.

#3843 TallyHo

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:23

No mate you are :drunk:

Posted Image

Do the maths.

:lol: What is that supposed to prove exactly?

#3844 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:24

:lol: What is that supposed to prove exactly?

That the track improved by over half a second between Q2 and Q3.

#3845 TallyHo

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:26

That the track improved by over half a second between Q2 and Q3.

Or that the drivers turned up the wick on their engines, and went for a balls out lap? You hear Brundle say it all the time.

#3846 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:28

No mate you are :drunk:

Posted Image

Do the maths.


Quote all the times and your argument isn't quite as persuasive:

6 5 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1:16.153 1:15.128 1:14.948
7 6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:15.983 1:14.911 1:15.049
8 9 Kimi Räikkönen Lotus-Renault 1:15.889 1:15.322 1:15.199
9 18 Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1:16.017 1:15.026 1:15.245

Also, if ALL the drivers are turning up the engine modes and trying harder then of course they're all going to be quicker. Worth noting that Massa's Q2 time woudl've beaten Alonso's Q3 time. You do the math.

#3847 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:30

Or that the drivers turned up the wick on their engines, and went for a balls out lap? You hear Brundle say it all the time.

No one would risk going out in Q2. In Q3 some teams can take it easy, but in Q2 you basically have 16 cars within a second of each other, and every tenth you lose increases the risk of not making it through.

This is Monaco we're talking about.

#3848 robefc

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:30

That the track improved by over half a second between Q2 and Q3.


Don't be ridiculous mate, it's clear that Lewis and co calculated the cut off time to get through and paced themselves accordingly before going balls out in q3.

They do this every race apparently, although the identity of those that are clever and quick enough to do it and those that can't even get close to the other's cruising pace and subsequently miss the cut swaps around weirdly from one race to the next.

#3849 Thunderbolt

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:31

however jensons is always 2-3 tenths slower than lewis in quali! but in this track 3tenths are 6-7 or more position!
it isn't a news!

#3850 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:33

Don't be ridiculous mate, it's clear that Lewis and co calculated the cut off time to get through and paced themselves accordingly before going balls out in q3.

They do this every race apparently, although the identity of those that are clever and quick enough to do it and those that can't even get close to the other's cruising pace and subsequently miss the cut swaps around weirdly from one race to the next.

Ok, well surely at some point there is a difference because if Lewis already did his lap and the team thinks he makes it through, they won't send him out again even though he might possibly be able to improve his time, it's better to save his tyres. That's maybe why some drivers don't improve that much between the sessions and others do.

Either way I'm not happy so perhaps I'm not in the best form to discuss right now.