Jump to content


Photo

2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4041 replies to this topic

#3851 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 3,297 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:33

No one would risk going out in Q2. In Q3 some teams can take it easy, but in Q2 you basically have 16 cars within a second of each other, and every tenth you lose increases the risk of not making it through.

This is Monaco we're talking about.


Hardly any laps were done between Q2 and the first flyers in Q3. Button was the last to do is flyer in Q2 so there was only a few out laps of extra rubber down on the track at the beginning of Q3, the temperature didn't really change, it's nonsense to think that it equates to nearly a second difference. Button was nowhere today and that may be because he couldn't get the car to work but let's not pretend that it's MAINLY because of track conditions.

Advertisement

#3852 Nigol

Nigol
  • Member

  • 1,135 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:34

Or that the drivers turned up the wick on their engines, and went for a balls out lap? You hear Brundle say it all the time.


Drivers running with turned down engines in Q2 is the funniest thing I've read since quite some time.

Edited by Nigol, 26 May 2012 - 17:34.


#3853 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:34

Hardly any laps were done between Q2 and the first flyers in Q3. Button was the last to do is flyer in Q2 so there was only a few out laps of extra rubber down on the track at the beginning of Q3, the temperature didn't really change, it's nonsense to think that it equates to nearly a second difference. Button was nowhere today and that may be because he couldn't get the car to work but let's not pretend that it's MAINLY because of track conditions.

No idea what that all is aimed at. Did you quote the right post?

#3854 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 3,297 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:36

No idea what that all is aimed at. Did you quote the right post?


Your reply seemed to be suggesting that drivers do the fastest times possible in Q2 and that the difference was mainly to do with track temperatures in Q3. I was suggesting that isn't the case.

#3855 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:40

Still means he underperformed this weekend, because part of his work is getting the car to work in a way he wants, so that he can make use of it.


My point was that he could try setting it up differently 100 times and still not be happy and therefore still not perform. His sensitivity works against him in this type of situation. That's not underperfoming per se, like Man Utd being beaten by West Brom is underperforming, it's more a case of his main weakness being exposed.

#3856 TeamMacca

TeamMacca
  • Member

  • 534 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:41

Tired of Jenson moaning all the time, his lack of speed when the car isn't perfect is a bit of shambles to be honest, this is why he isn't up there with Lewis, Alonso and Vettel.

It's Canada next so another Qualifying session where Lewis comes out on top.

#3857 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:41

Your reply seemed to be suggesting that drivers do the fastest times possible in Q2 and that the difference was mainly to do with track temperatures in Q3. I was suggesting that isn't the case.

So what's the poking at Jenson for, some personal reasons?

Anyway with a grid as close as this, I don't see why any driver/team would not go full out to try and get in Q3. It was far too close for anyone to take it easy, as while driving you have no idea either what times the other drivers are doing.

#3858 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:43

Tired of Jenson moaning all the time, his lack of speed when the car isn't perfect is a bit of shambles to be honest, this is why he isn't up there with Lewis, Alonso and Vettel.

It's Canada next so another Qualifying session where Lewis comes out on top.

Ah yeah Vettel the guy that qualified in.... oh.

Why the fixture on qualifying anyway, no points on Saturdays. At least anywhere else besides Monaco.

#3859 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:50

My point was that he could try setting it up differently 100 times and still not be happy and therefore still not perform. His sensitivity works against him in this type of situation. That's not underperfoming per se, like Man Utd being beaten by West Brom is underperforming, it's more a case of his main weakness being exposed.

Sorry but I still don't see how it's not underperforming. That's just for his detractors to say so they can make it out like he's always this bad.

It's his job to sort his car out and drive as quickly as possible. He didn't do that today so he underperformed, weakness or not.

Advertisement

#3860 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,477 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:53

So before, Pirelli's suited Jenson and it was the big reason he was whooping Lewis.

And now, Pirelli's are actually exposing Jenson's weaknesses and its the big reason Lewis is whooping him.

I'm confused. :p

#3861 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 17:55

Sorry but I still don't see how it's not underperforming. That's just for his detractors to say so they can make it out like he's always this bad.

It's his job to sort his car out and drive as quickly as possible. He didn't do that today so he underperformed, weakness or not.


Yeah, and I also said this is not the norm for him and that he's normally a whisker off Hamilton when he's happy with the car. Apparently that makes me a 'detractor'?

Whatever.

#3862 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,522 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:04

No, nothing to do with it. The pace wasn't there, it was inevitable he'd not get through.


Jenson was only a couple of tenths shy of getting through, and based on the first runs he was quick enough.

It was that long second run in Q2 which did for him, another McLaren strategy fail, although presumably Jenson agreed with it.



#3863 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 3,661 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:07

Come on, you're living in a fantasy land, the track didn't improve by 7 Tenths in the space of 10 minutes. The logical explanation would be that drivers turn their engines up and put less fuel in Q3.

You're right, there's no way Lewis is 1 Full second quicker than JB in Monaco, which makes it all the more baffling as to what's happening with JB.


This - also remember in Q2 they are fueled up for 3-4 laps of running in case of traffic. But its not like they stuck 10 laps of fuel into Jensons car and 6 into Lewis's.

#3864 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:07

Or that the drivers turned up the wick on their engines, and went for a balls out lap? You hear Brundle say it all the time.


So why don't the ones that are out of Q1 such as Button do that and gain these magic 7tenths and make it to Q1? :drunk:
Is there a list of who does and doesn't tune their engines down or up,because it makes absolutely no sense in one of the tightest grids ever. If Hamilton has his engine tuned down in Q2 what's stopping Button to tune his up?Or anyone else for that matter.

The logic in your argument is deeply flawed and basically stupid.

#3865 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:16

So before, Pirelli's suited Jenson and it was the big reason he was whooping Lewis.

And now, Pirelli's are actually exposing Jenson's weaknesses and its the big reason Lewis is whooping him.

I'm confused. :p


so am I.......these are the options that have been posted so far!!!!


A) is it the tires
B) is it the track
C) is it setup....
D) or is Lewis just faster..........(Hint Hint..... :up: )
E) Maybe it's Whittmarsh and his new found love for LH
F) All of the above

Edited by BernieEc, 26 May 2012 - 18:17.


#3866 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:21

Yeah, and I also said this is not the norm for him and that he's normally a whisker off Hamilton when he's happy with the car. Apparently that makes me a 'detractor'?

Whatever.

Huh?

I'm quite sure you don't really mean to say he didn't underperform. Because if this is not the norm for him, then obviously he did underperform today. That's all.

#3867 Boxerevo

Boxerevo
  • Member

  • 1,961 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:24

Peace people. :up:



#3868 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:26

Jenson was only a couple of tenths shy of getting through, and based on the first runs he was quick enough.

It was that long second run in Q2 which did for him, another McLaren strategy fail, although presumably Jenson agreed with it.

Come on dude, you know better than this. What long second run in Q2 do you even mean, the one that Hamilton didn't even need to drive because he was quick enough in the first run?

Trust me, it's better to just face the facts instead of writing this down as a McLaren strategy fail.

#3869 TallyHo

TallyHo
  • Member

  • 271 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:49

So what's the poking at Jenson for, some personal reasons?

Anyway with a grid as close as this, I don't see why any driver/team would not go full out to try and get in Q3. It was far too close for anyone to take it easy, as while driving you have no idea either what times the other drivers are doing.

I'm a JB fan, but i believe Jenson tried to post the fastest lap as possible to get into Q3, whereas Hamilton had speed left in the bag. This isn't because Jenson is inherently slow, after all, the Ham fans like to tell us he's the fastest man in F1 so JB being on average 2 Tenths off in Quali since they've been teamates isn't too bad considering Quali isn't JBs forte. I believe something else it at play here, specifically tyre temps and i don't think Jenson nor the team know how to sort the problem yet. I also believe Vettel is having the same problem, he went from being on pole in Bahrain, to struggling to get into Q3 today, and then not even deciding to post a time.

#3870 itsademo

itsademo
  • Member

  • 404 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:50

JB is just a victim of the close grid his slow speed. He was 0.35s off LH in Spain Q2 and today 0.4s off LH in Q2. Any other year that's only a couple of positions.

corrected for you

Edited by itsademo, 26 May 2012 - 18:53.


#3871 MP422

MP422
  • Member

  • 1,860 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:52

so am I.......these are the options that have been posted so far!!!!


A) is it the tires
B) is it the track
C) is it setup....
D) or is Lewis just faster..........(Hint Hint..... :up: )
E) Maybe it's Whittmarsh and his new found love for LH
F) All of the above



D ? lol :up:

Can't wait to see Button's race. He is starting in the crunch zone.

Edited by MP422, 26 May 2012 - 18:53.


#3872 TallyHo

TallyHo
  • Member

  • 271 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 18:58

So why don't the ones that are out of Q1 such as Button do that and gain these magic 7tenths and make it to Q1? :drunk:
Is there a list of who does and doesn't tune their engines down or up,because it makes absolutely no sense in one of the tightest grids ever. If Hamilton has his engine tuned down in Q2 what's stopping Button to tune his up?Or anyone else for that matter.

The logic in your argument is deeply flawed and basically stupid.

I believe Jenson was at full wick to try and get into Q1, which is why it's so baffling, because he's definitely not 1 second slower than Hamilton around Monaco. The only explanation is tyres temps. Vettel also struggled and so did Kimi. Do you really believe Grosjean is 6 tenths faster around Monaco than Kimi?

#3873 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 19:14

Huh?

I'm quite sure you don't really mean to say he didn't underperform. Because if this is not the norm for him, then obviously he did underperform today. That's all.


I don't want a semantics debate any more than you do about the definition of 'underperforming', but I have already said why I think there's a difference between underperformance and what we saw today. Not putting a clean lap together, making a mistake or crashing would be underperforming. I just think JB was driving within his own limits today and there's not a lot he can do about that when he can't find a balance he's happy with. That's 'the norm' as much as him being brilliantly fast when he does have the balance is 'the norm'.

#3874 tommyhjortasen

tommyhjortasen
  • Member

  • 587 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 26 May 2012 - 19:14

Even as a fan of Jenson, a spde is a spade, he underperformed today. Lewis on the other hand did the opposite. McLaren has some work to do.

#3875 PARAZAR

PARAZAR
  • Member

  • 1,132 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 19:16

so am I.......these are the options that have been posted so far!!!!


A) is it the tires
B) is it the track
C) is it setup....
D) or is Lewis just faster..........(Hint Hint..... :up: )
E) Maybe it's Whittmarsh and his new found love for LH
F) All of the above


An equaly interesting list could have been accumulated last season. Who was supposedly underperforming due to the tyres and who was saying it? JB fans or LH fans? LH was slower than JB in Australia and already some of his fans were ready to crucify him...on the first race of the season. Jenson has been underperforming lately. I don't know if it's the tyres, the set up, the upgrades not being to his liking, him being off or whatever other reason we may think of, thing is he needs to up his game and work with his team to find a solution.

#3876 TallyHo

TallyHo
  • Member

  • 271 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 19:49

An equaly interesting list could have been accumulated last season. Who was supposedly underperforming due to the tyres and who was saying it? JB fans or LH fans? LH was slower than JB in Australia and already some of his fans were ready to crucify him...on the first race of the season. Jenson has been underperforming lately. I don't know if it's the tyres, the set up, the upgrades not being to his liking, him being off or whatever other reason we may think of, thing is he needs to up his game and work with his team to find a solution.

:up: exactly.

#3877 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,522 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 26 May 2012 - 20:54

Come on dude, you know better than this. What long second run in Q2 do you even mean, the one that Hamilton didn't even need to drive because he was quick enough in the first run?

Trust me, it's better to just face the facts instead of writing this down as a McLaren strategy fail.


He did a 6-lap run (including out & in laps) at the end of Q2, I made a mistake earlier when I said it was a 7-lap run.

His fastest lap was on the 3rd lap of the run, so he'd have been lugging around extra fuel.

I agree that his performance was less than stellar, but if he'd had less fuel onboard, more chance of making the cut.



#3878 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 21:18

He did a 6-lap run (including out & in laps) at the end of Q2, I made a mistake earlier when I said it was a 7-lap run.

His fastest lap was on the 3rd lap of the run, so he'd have been lugging around extra fuel.

I agree that his performance was less than stellar, but if he'd had less fuel onboard, more chance of making the cut.

Sure, but then it's still Monaco, and if the first lap gets ruined by anything it would mean the run is over as he'd have to get back into the pitbox in order to fuel up again, giving him not enough time to go out again for another lap. In that case, you'd be complaining about McLarens strategy. Also if there's any track where fuel has a small effect, it's Monaco. Hence McLaren fueled him for multiple laps. It was a smart move and they gave him enough chances.

Hamilton did a 15.2 and a 15.1. Button did a 16.1 and a 15.6. Both pitted. At this point McLaren told Jenson: “Let's get ourselves ready for a second run. At the moment we don't think we need it, but let's be ready.” and I was like, are you blind? Obviously he had to go out again. He did a 15.5 and a 15.8, in a 5 lap run btw. It just wasn't good enough at all, so stop digging a hole for yourself.

#3879 handel

handel
  • Member

  • 416 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 26 May 2012 - 21:27

That the track improved by over half a second between Q2 and Q3.


Sorry, but you don't honestly believe this do you?

Lewis summed it up well in an interview with sky. You push, you push more, you go all out and leave nothing on the table. Sure there is track development but less on the Pirellis as pointed out multiple times.

Advertisement

#3880 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 26 May 2012 - 22:25

Seems to me as an "observer" that there's a few people with an axe to grind that Button is not quick enough in general. That may or may not be true. In general Button has surprised most people with how much he has pushed Lewis since joining the team, that is undeniable. I think this year what we are seeing is a trend. Jenson started strongly obviously but is now struggling with the car and it's tyres. He has stated on numerous occasions that he is baffled by tyre performance, not being able to get the rears working, getting heat, managing degradation. In this season of all seasons I think we need to not be too quick to write anyone off. It is a strange year because of the Pirelli situation, make no mistake. At the moment Jenson is struggling more than Lewis and Monaco is part of a downhill slide that could reverse at any time. Maybe Monaco marks the start of a longer term upswing for Massa for example.

Yes Button underperformed and was baffled, it doesn't come down to am inherently "slow" driver. I'm not trying to defend any one driver just point out a general fact of racing. Getting setup right sometime favours one driver over another.

#3881 Sinceref189

Sinceref189
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 26 May 2012 - 22:36

Seems to me as an "observer" that there's a few people with an axe to grind that Button is not quick enough in general. That may or may not be true. In general Button has surprised most people with how much he has pushed Lewis since joining the team, that is undeniable. I think this year what we are seeing is a trend. Jenson started strongly obviously but is now struggling with the car and it's tyres. He has stated on numerous occasions that he is baffled by tyre performance, not being able to get the rears working, getting heat, managing degradation. In this season of all seasons I think we need to not be too quick to write anyone off. It is a strange year because of the Pirelli situation, make no mistake. At the moment Jenson is struggling more than Lewis and Monaco is part of a downhill slide that could reverse at any time. Maybe Monaco marks the start of a longer term upswing for Massa for example.

Yes Button underperformed and was baffled, it doesn't come down to am inherently "slow" driver. I'm not trying to defend any one driver just point out a general fact of racing. Getting setup right sometime favours one driver over another.


Well written post Muz Bee couldn't of put it better myself :up:

#3882 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2012 - 22:42

Sorry, but you don't honestly believe this do you?

Lewis summed it up well in an interview with sky. You push, you push more, you go all out and leave nothing on the table. Sure there is track development but less on the Pirellis as pointed out multiple times.

Ok, I guess Jenson should've just pushed a little more then and he'd have been in Q3. I'll go tell him that for next time.

#3883 SerratedEdge

SerratedEdge
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 26 May 2012 - 22:50

Button made some changes between FP3 and Q1. I think that's the problem: too many changes.


Agree. he said after Qualy the car had felt good in FP3 yet he made changes ?

Jenson seems to be tying himself in knots over set up like he did in the dark days at Honda.

Edited by SerratedEdge, 26 May 2012 - 23:02.


#3884 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2012 - 00:56

Ok, I guess Jenson should've just pushed a little more then and he'd have been in Q3. I'll go tell him that for next time.


He's right about the pushing element. Clearly the fastest guys only showed their hand in Q3. Massa and Alonso could barely improve at all in Q3 over Q2, suggesting they were already on the limit to get in unlike some of the others. Rosberg, Hamilton, Schumacher, Webber and Grosjean all found a lot of time on their last runs. The track doesn't rubber in anything like it used to in the Bridgestone era. Monaco is one of the few tracks in the Pirelli era where we do see big improvements in Q3 over Q2, suggesting that drivers are naturally driving slightly within themselves up until Q3 when they really let it go. It's common sense if you know you've got the speed not to go flat out until Q3.

#3885 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,522 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:09

Sure, but then it's still Monaco, and if the first lap gets ruined by anything it would mean the run is over as he'd have to get back into the pitbox in order to fuel up again, giving him not enough time to go out again for another lap. In that case, you'd be complaining about McLarens strategy. Also if there's any track where fuel has a small effect, it's Monaco. Hence McLaren fueled him for multiple laps. It was a smart move and they gave him enough chances.

Hamilton did a 15.2 and a 15.1. Button did a 16.1 and a 15.6. Both pitted. At this point McLaren told Jenson: “Let's get ourselves ready for a second run. At the moment we don't think we need it, but let's be ready.” and I was like, are you blind? Obviously he had to go out again. He did a 15.5 and a 15.8, in a 5 lap run btw. It just wasn't good enough at all, so stop digging a hole for yourself.


I can't see why the fuel effect would be less for Monaco, it's all acceleration and braking, both are adversely affected by weight.

If Jenson had speed to spare, and only risked missing the cut through traffic, it would have made sense to fuel him for multiple laps. But that wasn't the case, he needed the advantage of low fuel to have a reasonable chance.

I'm pretty sure that Jenson did a 6-lap run at the end, the official lap times don't seem to record his in-lap, presumably because it was started after the chequered flag.


#3886 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2012 - 07:55

He's right about the pushing element. Clearly the fastest guys only showed their hand in Q3. Massa and Alonso could barely improve at all in Q3 over Q2, suggesting they were already on the limit to get in unlike some of the others. Rosberg, Hamilton, Schumacher, Webber and Grosjean all found a lot of time on their last runs. The track doesn't rubber in anything like it used to in the Bridgestone era. Monaco is one of the few tracks in the Pirelli era where we do see big improvements in Q3 over Q2, suggesting that drivers are naturally driving slightly within themselves up until Q3 when they really let it go. It's common sense if you know you've got the speed not to go flat out until Q3.

Great in theory, but you cannot drive like that. How do you want to drive around there to try and do a 15.0 while with just a little twitch before a corner you do a 15.3 and you're out. They don't know the time of their lap, and it's not like they've plenty of laps to figure this out; just 1 or 2 and then they come in again. There is no time to risk anything as it seriously affects your race here.

Rest isn't true either, at most tracks this year we've seen similar gaps between Q2 and Q3. See Bahrain, Sepang, Melbourne.

#3887 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,581 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:01

(....) They don't know the time of their lap, and it's not like they've plenty of laps to figure this out; just 1 or 2 and then they come in again. (......)


Yes, they do - I believe all teams have the timing available on their steering wheel. They have the time to the hundreth, most of them.
(See for instance Davidson commenting on Schumacher's lap yesterday, where he pointed at the display saying it showed he was 0.48 up on his previous best.)

Edited by race addicted, 27 May 2012 - 08:03.


#3888 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:13

Yes, they do - I believe all teams have the timing available on their steering wheel. They have the time to the hundreth, most of them.
(See for instance Davidson commenting on Schumacher's lap yesterday, where he pointed at the display saying it showed he was 0.48 up on his previous best.)

Davidson has the ability to freeze time, a driver can't. So you're driving there and you see in the tunnel that after the first sector you're up two tenths over your previous time. Only moment they can really look at that anyway. And that still doesn't tell you a lot does it, it's not like they'll just cruise till the end from there on? It cannot work like that, you do not know the improvements cars around you make. Monaco is about getting in the rhythm, slowing down on purpose with the idea of leaving the best till the last doesn't apply here. You go full out, as within that rhythm you won't crash, and at the finish line you hope you're on the correct side of 10 cars bunched up together within half a second.

#3889 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,581 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:28

They look at the time on the start/finish straight, of course. They always have a feel for where they are laptime-wise too.
I don't know what you mean by "slowing down on purpose with the idea of leaving the best till the last doesn't apply here" -?

Take the swimming pool section for instance, that's a tricky part that can bite. On say eight out of ten times, you leave a little bit of margin there, but when you're on your last flyer in Q3, you will not leave that margin.

Edited by race addicted, 27 May 2012 - 08:28.


#3890 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:35

They look at the time on the start/finish straight, of course. They always have a feel for where they are laptime-wise too.
I don't know what you mean by "slowing down on purpose with the idea of leaving the best till the last doesn't apply here" -?

Take the swimming pool section for instance, that's a tricky part that can bite. On say eight out of ten times, you leave a little bit of margin there, but when you're on your last flyer in Q3, you will not leave that margin.

Like, when their lap is over? What do they want to do about their time then? And how do they know, in the car, what the times are of the cars around them, and what sectors rivals are driving at that moment improving their laps? And then the next lap, your final one of Q2, you leave a little bit of margin through a section, while you've no idea if that will be enough to get through to the last session, knowing it can come down to thousands of a second? No F1 driver would be stupid enough, I reckon.

#3891 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 3,661 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:36

Do we really think the teams would bother designing wheels that show the info if drivers cant see it?

They might be busy, but I have no doubt they see that delta on their screens.

#3892 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:38

Do we really think the teams would bother designing wheels that show the info if drivers cant see it?

They might be busy, but I have no doubt they see that delta on their screens.

Perhaps they're designed for 19 of the 20 tracks on the calender.

#3893 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,462 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:38

I can't see why the fuel effect would be less for Monaco, it's all acceleration and braking, both are adversely affected by weight.

If Jenson had speed to spare, and only risked missing the cut through traffic, it would have made sense to fuel him for multiple laps. But that wasn't the case, he needed the advantage of low fuel to have a reasonable chance.

I'm pretty sure that Jenson did a 6-lap run at the end, the official lap times don't seem to record his in-lap, presumably because it was started after the chequered flag.

14 P 3:36.075 - in pits, effectively part of inlap of previous run
15 1:25.201 - leaves pits, outlap (every driver recorded these times after a P)
16 1:15.536 - 1st hotlap
17 1:33.593 - cool down lap
18 1:15.826 - 2nd hotlap
19 - not recorded inlap, lap 5

So 5 laps. So you suggest McLaren should have let him done a 3 lap run, saving him 5kg's of fuel winning him a theoretical tenth and a half (still would've failed) with the risk that, while driving at Monaco, any tiny thing, from a yellow flag in a sector to a car slowing down in front of him, that could disrupt the lap would mean he's automatically out as he'd have no second chance. I'd be furious if that happened, and so would you. It's like what happened to Hamilton a year ago, sending a car on track with a risky strategy and just waiting for the inevitable. Why would you want McLaren to fall in those traps again?

Blame McLaren all you want, I'll keep the blame on Jenson for having the same pace during Thursday Practice 2 as during frickin Qualifying. Nothing McLaren can do about that.

#3894 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,581 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:44

Like, when their lap is over? What do they want to do about their time then? And how do they know, in the car, what the times are of the cars around them, and what sectors rivals are driving at that moment improving their laps? And then the next lap, your final one of Q2, you leave a little bit of margin through a section, while you've no idea if that will be enough to get through to the last session, knowing it can come down to thousands of a second? No F1 driver would be stupid enough, I reckon.


Yes, they'll then have an idea if that is likely to be enough or not. It only takes a split second looking down on the display after Loews and also on the run to T17.
In addition to that, we hear engineers telling drivers, and drivers asking, where there is time to find, or where time is needed.

Every single driver knows where their package is, roughly, come qualifying.

#3895 Nigol

Nigol
  • Member

  • 1,135 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:55

I can't see why the fuel effect would be less for Monaco, it's all acceleration and braking, both are adversely affected by weight.

If Jenson had speed to spare, and only risked missing the cut through traffic, it would have made sense to fuel him for multiple laps. But that wasn't the case, he needed the advantage of low fuel to have a reasonable chance.

I'm pretty sure that Jenson did a 6-lap run at the end, the official lap times don't seem to record his in-lap, presumably because it was started after the chequered flag.


There is no heavy braking (or less) or fast corners. In order to minimize the fuel effect, the short gearing should help, too.

Edited by Nigol, 27 May 2012 - 08:57.


#3896 Jeag

Jeag
  • Member

  • 963 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:03

I expect Lewis to easily beat Jenson this weekend.

#3897 Trust

Trust
  • Member

  • 3,191 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:05

I didn't follow if Button has any problems. Can someone tell me if there is an explanation for his poor form last couple of races and today's qualifying?
Right now, it seems Lewis has an upper hand here.

#3898 SuperSoft

SuperSoft
  • Member

  • 348 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:09

I am unsure as to why there is a debate on the differences between Q2 and Q3. I has just taken it for granted that it was fact that the top drivers give it more during Q3 than Q2. In fact I would have said it was pretty obvious that the sole objective of Q2 was to make the top ten, not to be the fastest, Q3 is the time for pushing as hard as. Obviously I am talking only about the top teams, and the time differences between Q2 and Q3 do back that up - the midfield teams are pushing hard Q2 and thus there is not a difference between their times in Q2 and Q3, whereas the top teams usually seem to be able to find 0.5 in Q3.

Martin Brundle has often said before that the cars are only pushing as hard, engines turned up in Q3, trying to find any extra tenth to grab pole.

Like I said, it seems odd that there is even a debate on this, It has seemed clear enough to me the last few seasons.

#3899 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:11

I expect Lewis to easily beat Jenson this weekend.


 ;) Don't turn your back on JB he can still do it.

Advertisement

#3900 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:13

JB has got to be thinking about another strategy. The thing is Monaco is notorious for its lack of overtaking even if you have a faster car. I suspect Vettel is thinking about doing another 1 stop as he did last year. Remember the chances of a safety car is pretty high!!