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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#3901 SuperSoft

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:18

I didn't follow if Button has any problems. Can someone tell me if there is an explanation for his poor form last couple of races and today's qualifying?
Right now, it seems Lewis has an upper hand here.


I think this is fairly easy to explain what has happened, but how it happens is more of a mystery that only the God's truly know.

It goes back to ancient China and the role the Samurai Master would play in the development of his young student, teaching him how to use his power with more focus, how to set-up his weapon, how to treat his tires sword. In the ancient stories the student would suck all the life from his master as he becomes faster and smoother stronger than him.

I think it is obvious that Lewis has learned from Master Jenson and become a Samurai of his own, now Jenson's lifeforce is slowly leaving his body.

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#3902 SuperSoft

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:23

JB has got to be thinking about another strategy. The thing is Monaco is notorious for its lack of overtaking even if you have a faster car. I suspect Vettel is thinking about doing another 1 stop as he did last year. Remember the chances of a safety car is pretty high!!


I would put money on at least one safety car, it seems highly unlikely there will not be one, how many cars were hitting the barriers during quali?

With these lottery tires and a couple of safety cars I would not be surprised to see Bruno Senna wake up with three laps to go and find out he is winning the race.

#3903 teejay

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:29

Perhaps they're designed for 19 of the 20 tracks on the calender.


In a billion dollar sport they dont compromise.

#3904 Dalton007

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:30

JB has got to be thinking about another strategy. The thing is Monaco is notorious for its lack of overtaking even if you have a faster car. I suspect Vettel is thinking about doing another 1 stop as he did last year. Remember the chances of a safety car is pretty high!!


Soft tyre has to be the best option for Jenson and stop as late as possible. The race can still come to him, but 13th position might get him into an accident at the start. :|

#3905 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:34

In a billion dollar sport they dont compromise.

Exactly, so they bring special parts for Monaco. Is that the case with steering wheels though?

My point is more that during a hotlap in Monaco, you need all your focus on where you're going, and you need to stay in that rhythm. It's different than other tracks with actual straights.

#3906 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:37

Yes, they'll then have an idea if that is likely to be enough or not. It only takes a split second looking down on the display after Loews and also on the run to T17.
In addition to that, we hear engineers telling drivers, and drivers asking, where there is time to find, or where time is needed.

Every single driver knows where their package is, roughly, come qualifying.

I agree, just that roughly doesn't cut it. Not with this grid at this circuit.

#3907 ForzaGTR

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:40

Hopefully both drivers get a clean start, worried about Jenson starting in the midfield, hopefully everyone is sensible going into the first few corners.

Lewis could do with getting past Rosberg at the start, but that will be stupidly hard.

#3908 BernieEc

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:41

Hopefully both drivers get a clean start, worried about Jenson starting in the midfield, hopefully everyone is sensible going into the first few corners.

Lewis could do with getting past Rosberg at the start, but that will be stupidly hard.


Am more worried about Alonso schumacher and massa behind him....notoriously fast starters!!!

#3909 Knowlesy

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:44

Every single driver knows where their package is, roughly, come qualifying.


Especially if they have their belts fastened too tight.

#3910 Lazy

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:53

I expect Lewis to easily beat Jenson this weekend.


lol

#3911 race addicted

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:54

I would think they didn't need the belt straps to tell them about their anatomy? :confused:

#3912 Peter Perfect

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 10:04

Yes, they'll then have an idea if that is likely to be enough or not. It only takes a split second looking down on the display after Loews and also on the run to T17.
In addition to that, we hear engineers telling drivers, and drivers asking, where there is time to find, or where time is needed.

Every single driver knows where their package is, roughly, come qualifying.


Well...not every driver...

http://plus.autospor...nd-prix-so-far/

8 Kimi Raikkonen
"The whole weekend we have been a bit behind all the time. The car doesn't feel too bad but the biggest problem is to get the tyres working. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I could have been faster but I locked a wheel into the Swimming Pool."
12 Jenson Button
"I didn't have any problems until qualifying when I just didn't have the pace. I felt confident, which is a big thing here, but I didn't find that grip in qualifying. I'm as confused as many other people in the team as to where it went. It wasn't a mistake around the lap, the pace just wasn't there."
13 Bruno Senna
"I was expecting more. It's very frustrating. I'm really having a hard time to not overdrive on these tyres. I come into these qualifying sessions expecting a lot more. On Bridgestones, I could always nail a lap but it's not quite the same with these tyres."
14 Paul di Resta
"I felt pretty happy with the balance of the car during FP2 on Thursday, but unfortunately it didn't carry over for qualifying. We haven't changed much on the car, but I was struggling with the rear and with traction. It leaves us a hard task tomorrow."



#3913 oligc94

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 10:06

Especially if they have their belts fastened too tight.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


#3914 Lazy

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 10:15

I am unsure as to why there is a debate on the differences between Q2 and Q3. I has just taken it for granted that it was fact that the top drivers give it more during Q3 than Q2. In fact I would have said it was pretty obvious that the sole objective of Q2 was to make the top ten, not to be the fastest, Q3 is the time for pushing as hard as. Obviously I am talking only about the top teams, and the time differences between Q2 and Q3 do back that up - the midfield teams are pushing hard Q2 and thus there is not a difference between their times in Q2 and Q3, whereas the top teams usually seem to be able to find 0.5 in Q3.

Martin Brundle has often said before that the cars are only pushing as hard, engines turned up in Q3, trying to find any extra tenth to grab pole.

Like I said, it seems odd that there is even a debate on this, It has seemed clear enough to me the last few seasons.


Lewis confirmed this on sky.

#3915 Lazy

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 10:16

I agree, just that roughly doesn't cut it. Not with this grid at this circuit.


Lights is an angry man. :)

#3916 PretentiousBread

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 10:25

Great in theory, but you cannot drive like that. How do you want to drive around there to try and do a 15.0 while with just a little twitch before a corner you do a 15.3 and you're out. They don't know the time of their lap, and it's not like they've plenty of laps to figure this out; just 1 or 2 and then they come in again. There is no time to risk anything as it seriously affects your race here.

Rest isn't true either, at most tracks this year we've seen similar gaps between Q2 and Q3. See Bahrain, Sepang, Melbourne.


I don't understand why this is so hard to believe. The ones who are most comfortable with their speed are naturally going to drive within themselves in Q2 so that they don't make a needless mistake. Hamilton did half the number of laps of JB in Q2, if he needed to he would have had plenty of time to go out and do another run. He said after qualifying:

"You go out in Q1 and you don't push 100%, here particularly, Q2 a little bit more, and Q3 then you're flat out, just everything you've got, even if it means you're going to crash, you've just got to take every little risk you can to get that one millisecond."


The circuit i'm sure improved a bit, but it didn't suddenly improve the 6-7 tenths over the 5 minute interval that Hamilton, Webber, Schumacher, Rosberg and Grosjean all found. The cars that were logically slower (Ferrari, Williams) barely found any time at all in Q3 over Q2 - suggesting they were already maxing out their potential in Q2. It's obvious the big guns were keeping their powder dry until the final session.

#3917 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 11:09

Well...not every driver...

That's actually good to read, tells me Jenson is not the only one with varying feeling in the car without any obvious changes.

#3918 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 11:26

I don't understand why this is so hard to believe. The ones who are most comfortable with their speed are naturally going to drive within themselves in Q2 so that they don't make a needless mistake. Hamilton did half the number of laps of JB in Q2, if he needed to he would have had plenty of time to go out and do another run. He said after qualifying:

The circuit i'm sure improved a bit, but it didn't suddenly improve the 6-7 tenths over the 5 minute interval that Hamilton, Webber, Schumacher, Rosberg and Grosjean all found. The cars that were logically slower (Ferrari, Williams) barely found any time at all in Q3 over Q2 - suggesting they were already maxing out their potential in Q2. It's obvious the big guns were keeping their powder dry until the final session.

On most other circuits this is probably more the case than it is here. I'd actually argue that rubber on this track does make a larger difference, as well as confidence and rhythm. On this track the gaps between different phases in practices and also qualifying are larger than on normal tracks, I think that also plays part in the gaps we saw in qualifying.

On the bold part, logically slower how? You're talking about the front row of 2 weeks ago. It's hindsight talking, it wasn't obvious at all what these cars could still do.

#3919 race addicted

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 11:26

I don't think those drivers comments are very concrete. Besides, no-one has their excuses ready in the fashion a racing driver has.

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#3920 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 11:27

I don't think those drivers comments are very concrete. Besides, no-one has their excuses ready in the fashion a racing driver has.

Sure, it's all excuses again. Because reasons are banned.

#3921 race addicted

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 11:29

Absolutely not, but you should be open to that possibility.

....when you do a 15.7 early in second free, and you barely match that come qualifying hundreds of laps on the track later, something has gone wrong, that's for sure.

#3922 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 11:39

Absolutely not, but you should be open to that possibility.

....when you do a 15.7 early in second free, and you barely match that come qualifying hundreds of laps on the track later, something has gone wrong, that's for sure.

Hence the comments about the car feeling good before but not being able to translate that performance when it mattered. I don't see that as an excuse. It indeed indicates something has gone wrong, the issue is that he, per usual, doesn't know what that was.

For today's race, he still has the same issues. He won't be quicker than the 5 cars ahead of him. Needs some craziness if he wants to see some points.

#3923 Birelman

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 12:04

Lol!

#3924 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:49

Lewis hasn't looked great, but he has looked a darn sight better than Jenson!

#3925 Dalton007

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:51

Dreadful race for Button - not much he could do with a very good Caterham in front of him.

#3926 ForzaGTR

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:52

What has happened to Jenson, he is like a different driver this year

#3927 mlsnoopy

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:53

Dreadful race for Button - not much he could do with a very good Caterham in front of him.


Um. Catherham? Realy.

#3928 Boxerevo

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:54

Mclaren can't outhink a Catherham. :eek:

#3929 slmk

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:54

Dreadful race for Button - not much he could do with a very good Caterham in front of him.


You need good traction to overtake at Monaco, which McLaren severely lacks at the moment.

#3930 Archybald

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:54

What has happened to Jenson, he is like a different driver this year


Both cars had no traction this whole race the caterham was pulling away rapidly with every single corner but jenson caught up at the approach to the next corner, each time he tried to overtake he was almost punted off the track.

At the start of the race button went the correct way around the 1st corner almost got taken out by the sauber of kobyashi, then got overtaken when everyone behind him took a short cut. Then got stuck for the rest of the race.


Im quite suprised and impressed lewis managed to place where he did.

Edited by Archybald, 27 May 2012 - 14:06.


#3931 Dalton007

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:55

Um. Catherham? Realy.


Yeah, I know, but it had good traction. Even Michael couldn't pass Kimi.

#3932 SennaJordan

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:56

Hamilton wins the weekend but the fight for the championship is becoming increasingly difficult. The pitstop errors and the McLaren's recent lack of pace are worrying.

#3933 SuperSoft

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:57

2013 Rosberg vs Lewis Scorecard.

#3934 fayah69

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:57

you guys are funny. Last year around this time you guys where crucifying Lewis for making mistakes.....but yet when tables turn :/


#3935 Boxerevo

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:58

2013 Rosberg vs Lewis Scorecard.

Humm

Edited by Boxerevo, 27 May 2012 - 13:58.


#3936 velgajski1

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 13:58

Lewis put that car far above what an average driver could do today. Even Button couldn't make that car look remotely good.

#3937 Boxerevo

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:00

Both cars had no traction this whole race the caterham was pulling away rapidly with every single corner but jenson caught up at the approach to the next corner, each time he tried to overtake he was almost punted off the track.

Saw this,Mclaren was getting smoked on the tunnel.

#3938 Dalton007

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:00

Lewis put that car far above what an average driver could do today. Even Button couldn't make that car look remotely good.


The MAC isn't that bad. Definitely top 6 car.

#3939 teejay

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:01

Ah... Lewis wins the weekend yeah?

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#3940 SuperSoft

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:03

The MAC isn't that bad. Definitely top 6 car.


I would say probably top 6, still inconclusive, definitely a top 8 car.

Certainly makes me wonder where it would be if Jenson had a rookie for company this season and not Lewis.

#3941 StefanArak

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:06

I just don't understand why McLarens pitstops are so slow. Always over 4 seconds, other top teams are in the 3 seconds range. Just get faster, simple as that.

#3942 peroa

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:06

Both cars had no traction this whole race the caterham was pulling away rapidly with every single corner but jenson caught up at the approach to the next corner, each time he tried to overtake he was almost punted off the track.

At the start of the race button went the correct way around the 1st corner almost got taken out by the sauber of kobyashi, then got overtaken when everyone behind him took a short cut. Then got stuck for the rest of the race.

That's nothing new, it's been like that since 2010. The renault teams all have great traction, ferrari also and merc isn't too bad.

#3943 Anomnader

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:07

Can you say theres any winners, they're both losers in this race. McLaren car is poor.

#3944 Boxerevo

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:08

The car is good,Lewis did a good job this race.

The problem is,when the track suits,like Barcelona,we are doing shit.


There will be better races,we can't screw those races.

#3945 StefanArak

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:09

Can you say theres any winners, they're both losers in this race. McLaren car is poor.


Well it wasn't the best weekend for hamilton, but there's quite a difference between qualifying 3rd and finishing 5th and not making it into Q3 and getting stuck behind a Caterham, out of the points, then DNFing.

#3946 robefc

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:10

Can you say theres any winners, they're both losers in this race. McLaren car is poor.


Can we have a default post that pops up in reply to posts like this and explains the purpose of the thread...

#3947 Thunderbolt

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:10

I just don't understand why McLarens pitstops are so slow. Always over 4 seconds, other top teams are in the 3 seconds range. Just get faster, simple as that.


last years we didn't have these problems, it's strange...

#3948 Coral

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:11

The car is just bad. Lewis did not seem to have great pace and Jenson was just awful. A race to forget for both drivers... :(

#3949 revlec

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:12

Lewis put that car far above what an average driver could do today. Even Button couldn't make that car look remotely good.


Yes, Lewis put that car where it doesn't belong in qualifying.
And this is why on sunday we are usually disappointed about the lack of pace.
_
Just like Stoner Casey. Superfast in qualifying, but rarely replicate the same times during the race.

Edited by revlec, 27 May 2012 - 14:12.


#3950 jjcale

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:13

Both cars had no traction this whole race the caterham was pulling away rapidly with every single corner but jenson caught up at the approach to the next corner, each time he tried to overtake he was almost punted off the track.

At the start of the race button went the correct way around the 1st corner almost got taken out by the sauber of kobyashi, then got overtaken when everyone behind him took a short cut. Then got stuck for the rest of the race.


Im quite suprised and impressed lewis managed to place where he did.


This ... I didnt expect much at this track ... but the car was worse than I expected.

LH has really improved over the years as a qualifier... you can almost subtract two places from his quali ... so consistently does he outqualify the car.

Thank good Williams and Sauber had even worse days than macca today.