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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#351 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:01

If Lewis had got a clean start I think he would have ran off into the distance (like Button did). You've got to remember that Lewis was on pole and therefore had the advantage at the start. He didn't get a good start and thankfully (from a McLaren fans perspective) we had Jenson there to capitalise.


How could that have happened? He didn't have the pace.

I worded it like that just because of how this race panned out. But the point can be applied either way. IMO McLaren have the strongest driver line-up on the grid that means that if one driver messes up or is caught out by something like a SC (as happened with Lewis today) the other will more than likely be there or there abouts to capitalise and more importantly prevent rival teams and drivers from capitalising as much. Compare that with Ferrari for example who have a very unbalanced driver line-up.


I fully agree about Massa, and I would like to see them put an established quality driver in that seat as soon as possible. But we have another thread for that discussion.

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#352 btrader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:01

Whaaaat!!! Are you serious?! Lewis is a WDC, there is no way on this earth he should accept being a No. 2 and "winning the occasional race." Good grief, that is ridiculous. Lewis needs to find another team he is clearly jaded at McLaren. Right now I would settle for his going to Mercedes, Lotus or heck, even Williams.


He does not accept it but he knows it deep down. He was caught napping when Button came and rather than exert his authority he kept his eye off the ball fired his dad thought he owned the team :lol: . Too late his manor has been taken over Button is number 1. He came, saw and conquered in true Brit style. McLaren would of course say the right things and give the impression there is this partiy but Button gets the first call and priority. Car design, pit calls, set up e.t.c.


So the point Lewis can either accept it or move on to a mid team an enjoy being lapped by Button in the McLaren, I am sure that would hurt 100x more.

#353 stairpotato

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:01

Ok, so Lewis lost say 9 seconds to vettel at the first stops.

Lets swap jenson and lewis's stops around...so button loses 9 seconds to lewis and is well behind after the first stops.

Would that be fair?


Except that Lewis didn't lose 9 seconds.

#354 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:02

That's just rubbish. You only have to look back to Saturday to see how fast Lewis is.


It doesn't really matter how fast he is on Saturdays. Particularly if the car is good enough to lock out the front row.

#355 Coral

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:02

That's just rubbish. You only have to look back to Saturday to see how fast Lewis is.


Oh really? So where was his pace today then?

#356 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:04

It's just one possibility. One of several. And would mean a change from what happens now. Discuss it as a possibility by all means, but not as the almost inevitable outcome.


Not to be argumentative about a speculative topic, but what are the "several" other possibilities, and how do they relate to previous WDC contests which narrowed down to being substantially between two team-mates?

#357 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:06

Not to be argumentative about a speculative topic, but what are the "several" other possibilities, and how do they relate to previous WDC contests which narrowed down to being substantially between two team-mates?

When was the last one between team-mates who hadn't fallen out?

#358 hammibal

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:08

Disagree with what? What they do now?

What 'rule' would you have?

A rule that prevents a driver from having to drive around on tyres that are shot

#359 stairpotato

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:11

Anyone got the latest Jenson vs Lewis career stats (ie from 2010 onwards?)

I thought they were on this thread but can't see them.

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#360 Lights

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:11

Oh really? So where was his pace today then?

Where was Jenson's pace yesterday?

Don't base all your conclusions on one race. They're very close in terms of speed.

#361 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:11

A rule that prevents a driver from having to drive around on tyres that are shot

Sounds good.
What would that rule be?

#362 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:12

Oh really? So where was his pace today then?

Just look back to the middle stint when he was on primes, Vettel on options and he was quicker. Pulled out over a 2.5 second gap on slower tyres. Then he was clearly held up by Vettel in the last stint.

I don't know what you expect to see when comparing Lewis and Jenson? This is not an Alonso vs. Massa or Vettel vs. Webber partnership. Button and Hamilton are pretty close. If one has a clear advantage - like Button was given the better strategy today - then that driver will more than likely come out on top.

I don't think you know what you are talking about to be honest.

#363 Coral

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:12

So the point Lewis can either accept it or move on to a mid team an enjoy being lapped by Button in the McLaren, I am sure that would hurt 100x more.


I doubt that somehow. McLaren aren't the only decent team you know. Let's face it, McLaren has been Jenson's team since 2010, it's time for Lewis to go, he's been there too long...familiarity breeds contempt.

#364 hammibal

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:16

Except that Lewis didn't lose 9 seconds.

He lost 5 seconds i believe

#365 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:17

When was the last one between team-mates who hadn't fallen out?


It rarely happens these days. There is usually a falling out when a WDC is on the line, and I would expect it to happen again.
Perhaps Webber vs Vettel in 2010? However, Alonso went into the last race with a WDC lead, so it was not a real two-hander. And MW and SV did fall out somewhat during 2010.

#366 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:17

Sounds good.
What would that rule be?


How about it being logic instead of a rule?

#367 stairpotato

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:18

He lost 5 seconds i believe


yep

#368 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:21

It rarely happens these days. There is usually a falling out when a WDC is on the line, and I would expect it to happen again.
Perhaps Webber vs Vettel in 2010? However, Alonso went into the last race with a WDC lead, so it was not a real two-hander. And MW and SV did fall out somewhat during 2010.

Nothing like the situation you described.
I'll repeat - when was the last time it happened...
- at all?
- with team-mates who hadn't fallen out?

If you can't point to some decent precedents then I don't know how you conclude they'll (almost) inevitably stop communicating.

#369 flyer121

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:21

No wonder McLaren have one title in 12 years.Next race roles are reversed, but Vettel is still reaping the rewards and another title.Don't get me wrong I love Mac for letting drivers race but hate them for gifting opponents easy points.
Lets hope SV doesn't win by 3.


Oh come off it.... SV is not thretening the title based on available evidence !

You are just pissed that Lew got beat by Button as Lewis himself is. And understandably so.

#370 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:23

How about it being logic instead of a rule?

The fact that neither you nor Hammibal have come up with a suggestion points to it not being all that easy - not if you want to be fair to both drivers.
I'm not saying it's impossible - just that writing 'this is rubbish' without suggesting something better doesn't advance the discussion.

#371 Sinceref189

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:23

He does not accept it but he knows it deep down. He was caught napping when Button came and rather than exert his authority he kept his eye off the ball fired his dad thought he owned the team :lol: . Too late his manor has been taken over Button is number 1. He came, saw and conquered in true Brit style. McLaren would of course say the right things and give the impression there is this partiy but Button gets the first call and priority. Car design, pit calls, set up e.t.c.

So the point Lewis can either accept it or move on to a mid team an enjoy being lapped by Button in the McLaren, I am sure that would hurt 100x more.


lol Here we go again . Yes jenson got 2 wins first in 2010 but who came within the title that year Lewis did. Now what ive bolded is on point ,Mclaren is Buttons team now End of. As a blatent hamy fan i can see this :| Mclaren policy of equal treatment is no more i dont give a **** what they say . They screwed him over in the race today and it WILL happen again. He is NOT gonna sign a new contract . They have been steadily declining Lewis as a 2nd driver . After what happened last year there putting all there energy into Button as he's more level headed. I will admit Jenson is the better driver for now ,Mclaren know this so Lewis will bring in the WCC . EVERYONE saw this conspiracy shit happening last year now its happening again look on the mclaren thread , there going mad on there :lol:

#372 flyer121

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:23

How about it being logic instead of a rule?


Okay thats a comedown but still... Lets hear the logic !

#373 btrader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:25

I doubt that somehow. McLaren aren't the only decent team you know. Let's face it, McLaren has been Jenson's team since 2010, it's time for Lewis to go, he's been there too long...familiarity breeds contempt.


So where would he go? Williams? Frank Williams is openly a fan but they cant afford him and no big prospects there. Merc? not if Schumi is there and Keke wont have Lewis there. His only hope is a new manufacturer like Porsche joining f1. He can join from scratch and start all over. Alternatively he can ask for a new Race Engineer ike Button did twice or start taking his own decisions on track and coming in when he tyres are shot just like Button does



#374 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:26

So where would he go? Williams? Frank Williams is openly a fan but they cant afford him and no big prospects there. Merc? not if Schumi is there and Keke wont have Lewis there. His only hope is a new manufacturer like Porsche joining f1. He can join from scratch and start all over. Alternatively he can ask for a new Race Engineer ike Button did twice or start taking his own decisions on track and coming in when he tyres are shot just like Button does

Be serious.

#375 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:28

Nothing like the situation you described.
I'll repeat - when was the last time it happened...
- at all?
- with team-mates who hadn't fallen out?

If you can't point to some decent precedents then I don't know how you conclude they'll (almost) inevitably stop communicating.


I gave three examples of drivers who fell out when fighting for a WDC in the same team (1986/7, 1988/89 and 2006/7). They are the precedent for my observation that a two teams within a team situation could develop. I never said they would not fall out. That is your assumption. Why are you asking me for evidence to support your assumption?

By the way, one example is Prost and Lauda 1984.

#376 Masenco

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:29

To be honest, I think Jenson was just faster than Lewis today.
Sure Jenson having clean air, no-one infront of him and more appropriately timed pitstops would have definitely helped him, there were points during the race where you could not deny that Jenson had pace that Lewis just didn't seem to have also.

For the majority of the race though, they seemed to be lapping at very similar times- though we do not know how hard each of them were pushing, they seemed to be pretty close.
The only times you could see a clear difference in their pace was at the ends of the stints where Lewis' tyres seemed to drop off before Jenson's.

Having the bad start and giving Jenson the clean air was a critical part of the race as it gave Jenson the pit call (although Lewis still should have been allowed to pit earlier) which put Lewis behind Perez, which closed the gap from Vettel as well as affected his tyre deg, which then helped Vettel to take him in the pits due to the safety car.

I would've loved to see what the race would have looked like if Lewis had lead into the first corner, as then he would have had the clean air and the optimum pit call.
Or even would have loved to see what would have happened if Lewis had not had such a late call into the pits, as then he wouldn't have gotten stuck behind Perez.

I think what we have to accept is that Jenson can have out and out faster race pace than Lewis at some tracks with these tyres; however it is close. And you also have to take into account that Lewis is usually faster than Jenson in qualifying on most tracks, therefore even if Jenson may have better tyre management or slightly faster race pace on some tracks, if Lewis can pull out a lead in clean air....



#377 Kvothe

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:30

EVERYONE saw this conspiracy shit happening last year now its happening again look on the mclaren thread , there going mad on there :lol:


Did we? Are they?

Or is it a select few posters?

I don't know what people were expecting but, obviously its a shock for them. I knew this year was going to be close Lewis will have to dig deep and bring out his A game.


Anyway I look forward to Malaysia

#378 Anomnader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:31

To be honest, I think Jenson was just faster than Lewis today.
Sure Jenson having clean air, no-one infront of him and more appropriately timed pitstops would have definitely helped him, there were points during the race where you could not deny that Jenson had pace that Lewis just didn't seem to have also.

For the majority of the race though, they seemed to be lapping at very similar times- though we do not know how hard each of them were pushing, they seemed to be pretty close.
The only times you could see a clear difference in their pace was at the ends of the stints where Lewis' tyres seemed to drop off before Jenson's.

Having the bad start and giving Jenson the clean air was a critical part of the race as it gave Jenson the pit call (although Lewis still should have been allowed to pit earlier) which put Lewis behind Perez, which closed the gap from Vettel as well as affected his tyre deg, which then helped Vettel to take him in the pits due to the safety car.

I would've loved to see what the race would have looked like if Lewis had lead into the first corner, as then he would have had the clean air and the optimum pit call.
Or even would have loved to see what would have happened if Lewis had not had such a late call into the pits, as then he wouldn't have gotten stuck behind Perez.

I think what we have to accept is that Jenson can have out and out faster race pace than Lewis at some tracks with these tyres; however it is close. And you also have to take into account that Lewis is usually faster than Jenson in qualifying on most tracks, therefore even if Jenson may have better tyre management or slightly faster race pace on some tracks, if Lewis can pull out a lead in clean air....


Yep Jenson was better today, but it doesn't change the fact that they should have brought lewis in no matter that Jenson has first dibs, he was losing time, if it was the other way round, Jenson would either come in or be brought in, they need to sort themselves out, get bloody Pat in!!!


#379 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:32

When was the last one between team-mates who hadn't fallen out?


1996 I think. Damon and Jacques didn't fall out.

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#380 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:33

I gave three examples of drivers who fell out when fighting for a WDC in the same team (1986/7, 1988/89 and 2006/7). They are the precedent for my observation that a two teams within a team situation could develop. I never said they would not fall out. That is your assumption. Why are you asking me for evidence to support your assumption?

By the way, one example is Prost and Lauda 1984.

No. It isn't.
I didn't make any assumptions.
My point is that 2 drivers from one team clear at the front is rare.
Two drivers from one team who haven't fallen out clear at the front is almost unprecedented in modern times.
Claiming to know what Mclaren would have to do about pit-stops if that situation develops is just silly.

#381 Masenco

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:33

Yep Jenson was better today, but it doesn't change the fact that they should have brought lewis in no matter that Jenson has first dibs, he was losing time, if it was the other way round, Jenson would either come in or be brought in, they need to sort themselves out, get bloody Pat in!!!


I agree, would have loved to see what would have happened if Lewis was brought in earlier :)

#382 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:34

1996 I think. Damon and Jacques didn't fall out.

Ta. That's a good one.
Don't suppose you know how they ran their pit-stops? :D

#383 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:38

The fact that neither you nor Hammibal have come up with a suggestion points to it not being all that easy - not if you want to be fair to both drivers.
I'm not saying it's impossible - just that writing 'this is rubbish' without suggesting something better doesn't advance the discussion.


But the current situation is already unfair,the only fair logic would be not gifting points to your rivals,but earn maximum points for the team. Unless you think a 1-3 with SV 2nd is fairest than a 1-2 with SV 3rd,regardless of order.



#384 Coral

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:38

lol Here we go again . Yes jenson got 2 wins first in 2010 but who came within the title that year Lewis did. Now what ive bolded is on point ,Mclaren is Buttons team now End of. As a blatent hamy fan i can see this :| Mclaren policy of equal treatment is no more i dont give a **** what they say . They screwed him over in the race today and it WILL happen again. He is NOT gonna sign a new contract . They have been steadily declining Lewis as a 2nd driver . After what happened last year there putting all there energy into Button as he's more level headed. I will admit Jenson is the better driver for now ,Mclaren know this so Lewis will bring in the WCC . EVERYONE saw this conspiracy shit happening last year now its happening again look on the mclaren thread , there going mad on there :lol:


I totally agree with every word. I have seen this coming since Melbourne 2010. Jenson and McLaren took to each other like a duck to water...Jenson's cool, media-friendly demeanour suits McLaren's corporate image down to the ground. Lewis is just too emotional and reactionary for his own good...he burned his bridges at McLaren long ago IMO. It's ironic that Lewis is now in the position that Alonso was in 2007. And of course Alonso is another emotional type. Lewis must leave McLaren...how I would love to see him partner Alonso at Ferrari, as unlikely as that may be.

#385 flyer121

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:39

Great drive by Jense.....

I have to confess that I m one of the many who had doubts over his abilities, which are increasingly put to bed one by one!

#386 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:40

Ta. That's a good one.
Don't suppose you know how they ran their pit-stops? :D


I'll see if I can find the season review and get back to you. I can remember that they one-stopped in Melbourne. Jacques led from Damon. Damon pitted 2nd and jumped Jacques in the stops, emerging right in from of Jacques, only for Jacques to retake the lead at T3. But remember that was early in the refuelling era on control Goodyears, so the dynamics of pit-stop strategy were different.

#387 Sinceref189

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:40

Did we? Are they?

Or is it a select few posters?

I don't know what people were expecting but, obviously its a shock for them. I knew this year was going to be close Lewis will have to dig deep and bring out his A game.


Anyway I look forward to Malaysia


Ummmmmm Malaysian (tyres) few races with bad pit stops Monaco,singapore (Qualifying) Silverstone (under fueled car) And no doubt he will have to dig deep mate but I can't see in these after race briefings conversations must get heated between Lewis ,his engineer and Mclaren . How is he meant to perform consistantly when his team keep ****ing him over

Edited by Sinceref189, 18 March 2012 - 11:44.


#388 fabr68

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:41

Being gun-ho and all out does not cut it in Formula 1 anymore. It is all about driver skill and control now. Button got the upper hand in that department today.

#389 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:43

I'll see if I can find the season review and get back to you. I can remember that they one-stopped in Melbourne. Jacques led from Damon. Damon pitted 2nd and jumped Jacques in the stops, emerging right in from of Jacques, only for Jacques to retake the lead at T3. But remember that was early in the refuelling era on control Goodyears, so the dynamics of pit-stop strategy were different.

Oh I know, I wasn't really being serious - not that it wouldn't be interesting to know.
It just seems daft that someone 'knows' how Mac will have to change their pit strategies if the car really is much better than the rest.

#390 gricey1981

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:44

All about Jenson today. Is one of his better tracks though. Hamilton seemed to be losin out in sector 2.

Gonna be a tight season. Hopefully Lewis can get his head around being beat here and come back stronger. There will be plenty of opportunities.

Great result for Jenson and not the end of the world for Lewis. Vettel was lucky to get 2nd

Edited by gricey1981, 18 March 2012 - 11:44.


#391 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:44

But the current situation is already unfair,the only fair logic would be not gifting points to your rivals,but earn maximum points for the team. Unless you think a 1-3 with SV 2nd is fairest than a 1-2 with SV 3rd,regardless of order.

I really don't want to argue with you on this. Really, really.

I just want to read your suggestion for a better system, rather than how crap it was today.

#392 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:46

Oh I know, I wasn't really being serious - not that it wouldn't be interesting to know.
It just seems daft that someone 'knows' how Mac will have to change their pit strategies if the car really is much better than the rest.


Fair enough. But 1996 is a somewhat forgotten season in some ways. If this year does indeed turn into a fight between Jenson and Lewis then it would make a very good case study.

#393 Anomnader

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:46

Ummmmmm Malaysian (tyres) few races with bad pit stops Monaco,singapore (Qualifying) Silverstone (under fueled car) And no doubt he will have to dig deep mate but I can't see in these after race briefings conversations must get heated between Lewis ,his engineer and Mclaren . How is he meant to perform consistantly when his team keep ****ing him over


You forgot Austrialia last year, bringing him for tyres when they was okay and everyone watching know it was wrong

#394 Alondra

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:47

Fantastic drive by Jenson - well done!

#395 trogggy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:48

Fair enough. But 1996 is a somewhat forgotten season in some ways. If this year does indeed turn into a fight between Jenson and Lewis then it would make a very good case study.

I agree.
TBH I just don't see this year turning out that way, after watching the race today. I don't mind if I'm wrong on that though.

#396 stairpotato

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:49

This is certainly a great start to the season for JB. Christian Horner said that he thought Jenson would be their biggest competitor this year - and on this performance who'd argue with that?

#397 GlenP

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:50

A great win from Button, with outstanding pace when he needed it, especially after the restart.

Obviously Lewis should have been second and was unlucky with the sc, but he didn't have the pace of Button at any time, I thought.

BTW; excellent job by McLaren.

#398 fieraku

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:50

Being gun-ho and all out does not cut it in Formula 1 anymore. It is all about driver skill and control now. Button got the upper hand in that department today.


And that explains Hamilton's "I have no clue" response when asked why he was slow, and Buttons "I love F1 atm,etc etc"

Lewis hasn't coped with it,he's had one to many ''mysterious slow'' races,Ham may have been a lot of things,but never slow.JB will destroy him if he doesn't get a grip.


#399 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:52

Ta. That's a good one.
Don't suppose you know how they ran their pit-stops? :D


That is really the question.

By the way, the incident that seems to me to relate a little more to the current dilemma was Ralf and Montoya in France in 2003 (I believe). Montoya pitted believing that he would have two laps with new tyres/low fuel before Ralf stopped. However, Ralf's pit called him in the next lap and held off Montoya. Hence, the pit stop strategy for each driver was decided independently and basically treated the team-mate exactly as if he were a driver for another team.

I don't know if they fell out over it, but Montoya was very miffed at the team (unjustifiably IMO).

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#400 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:53

No. It isn't.
I didn't make any assumptions.
My point is that 2 drivers from one team clear at the front is rare.
Two drivers from one team who haven't fallen out clear at the front is almost unprecedented in modern times.
Claiming to know what Mclaren would have to do about pit-stops if that situation develops is just silly.


Then you have my examples from an earlier post. Why did you ask for more?