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2012 Jenson vs Lewis scorecard


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#3951 Anomnader

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:14

Can we have a default post that pops up in reply to posts like this and explains the purpose of the thread...


Jesus, stop getting your nickers in a twist. Theres no point celebrating on driver over the other, this race was a big let down for both drivers.

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#3952 SuperSoft

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:14

Yes, Lewis put that car where it doesn't belong in qualifying.
And this is why on sunday we are usually disappointed about the lack of pace.
_
Just like Stoner Casey. Superfast in qualifying, but rarely replicate the same times during the race.


Tires.
Tires.
Tires.
Tires.
Tires.
Tires.
Tires.

God I am bored of tires.

#3953 SuperSoft

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:15

Jesus, stop getting your nickers in a twist. Theres no point celebrating on driver over the other, this race was a big let down for both drivers.


Yeah, you're right. Split points for today, yes?

#3954 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:19

Button could've scored some good points today. P7 was easily possible. Turn 1 ruined everything, he was on the wrong side of a flying Perez and a handful of cars passed him on the inside. That was his race, sometimes here they do get decided in the first corner.

#3955 maverick69

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:21

Another clear win for Hamilton. /end

#3956 Anomnader

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:21

Yeah, you're right. Split points for today, yes?


Monaco in the proper points should be made a none points scorer.

#3957 robefc

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:24

Jesus, stop getting your nickers in a twist. Theres no point celebrating on driver over the other, this race was a big let down for both drivers.


still not getting it then.

#3958 spacekid

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:27

Button could've scored some good points today. P7 was easily possible. Turn 1 ruined everything, he was on the wrong side of a flying Perez and a handful of cars passed him on the inside. That was his race, sometimes here they do get decided in the first corner.


Good analysis. Once that happens to you at Monaco its all over.

As Jenson said, its all about quali. Poor weekend from him.

Ham looked solid.

#3959 Anomnader

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:27

still not getting it then.


Lewis came out in front of qualifying and race with Button, if thats a cause of celebration, woopy do. Its nothing to do with not getting it :rolleyes:

If you want to, go ahead I'm not stopping you, just stop being a dick about it.



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#3960 PARAZAR

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:27

Well obviously Hamilton wins it. Is there any question about it? Jenson never stood a chance after the start and then getting stuck behind Kova. Hamilton didn't impress me either, no pace, no moves. Basically every year I get excited about Monaco and then I remember why it bores me.

#3961 hammibal

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:28

Button could've scored some good points today. P7 was easily possible. Turn 1 ruined everything, he was on the wrong side of a flying Perez and a handful of cars passed him on the inside. That was his race, sometimes here they do get decided in the first corner.

But that was also a consequence of only qualifying 12th

#3962 fieraku

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:29

JB needed to do what Hammer did last year.

#3963 PARAZAR

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:30

But that was also a consequence of only qualifying 12th


Yes he qualified badly. Had it been another circuit maybe he could have done sth more.

#3964 Anomnader

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:30

JB needed to do what Hammer did last year.


Problem is, after last year your not allowed to force your way through as you'll get penalised. They finished it last year trying any attempt at overtaking.

#3965 hammibal

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:31

Scorecard:-

Lewis 14 - 4 Jenson

#3966 ForzaGTR

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:31

Well obviously Hamilton wins it. Is there any question about it? Jenson never stood a chance after the start and then getting stuck behind Kova. Hamilton didn't impress me either, no pace, no moves. Basically every year I get excited about Monaco and then I remember why it bores me.


This sums it up for me. The build up to the Monaco GP is great, the vide, the sun, the boats, celebs, GP2 and 3, Practice, quali all fantastic but then the race happens...it's not racing, it's solely down to tyres and strategy. Jenson couldn't even pass a Caterham. Rubbish race.

#3967 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:31

Hard to judge Lewis. Didn't seem like he was fully aware of where he was in the race, which sounded weird. Felt like he could've kept 4th position had he kept up with Alonso, instead Vettel just slipped through. Seemed like he was very concerned about his tyres too with a lot of laps to go but it didn't seem to be bad at all in the end.

#3968 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:32

But that was also a consequence of only qualifying 12th

Was it the consequence for Di Resta who qualified 14th?

#3969 Boxerevo

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:32

I think the race was good,not fault of the race if our team didn't do the best job.

#3970 robefc

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:33

Lewis came out in front of qualifying and race with Button, if thats a cause of celebration, woopy do. Its nothing to do with not getting it :rolleyes:

If you want to, go ahead I'm not stopping you, just stop being a dick about it.


I think who's being a dick is up for debate, maybe I'll start a thread so we can discuss it.

In the meantime this is the versus thread and it's fairly obvious who performed better this weekend. Posts like your original post are just tiresome, as if people can't discuss the topic of the thread because it wasn't a great result for either driver.

Edited by robefc, 27 May 2012 - 14:33.


#3971 Thunderbolt

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:34

Basically every year I get excited about Monaco and then I remember why it bores me.


it's the same for me :lol:
however mclaren hasn't the pace and button was unlucky at the start! then button hasn't great still in overtake. these're the reasons of awful button's race! no more to add...


#3972 P123

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:35

I was surprised yesterday in Q3 to see the Ferraris and Lotus behind...... today sort of balanced things back up. 5th not so bad, especially when considering that Button spent all race fighting a Caterham, and even fell a couple of seconds behind it early on. Makes you wonder what has gone wrong at McLaren regarding their race day pace.

#3973 ForzaGTR

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:36

I just wonder what could have happened last year had Lewis not allowed so many off track issues affect his racing. I still think Red Bull had the edge, but could Lewis have gotten closer to Seb than Jenson did?

#3974 Alx09

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:36

Hamilton didn't impress me either, no pace, no moves.

Perhaps you know, it's related to the car? I think the McLaren belonged at max around 8th place in pace today.

#3975 Anomnader

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:36

I think who's being a dick is up for debate, maybe I'll start a thread so we can discuss it.

In the meantime this is the versus thread and it's fairly obvious who performed better this weekend. Posts like your original post are just tiresome, as if people can't discuss the topic of the thread because it wasn't a great result for either driver.


Then stop trying to make something off it, being bullying and trying cause trouble against someone who doesn't have a issue with either button or Lewis :down:
Its an opinion that wasn't aggressive against any poster or any driver. :down:

Go find someone else to rag

#3976 robefc

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:37

Hard to judge Lewis. Didn't seem like he was fully aware of where he was in the race, which sounded weird. Felt like he could've kept 4th position had he kept up with Alonso, instead Vettel just slipped through. Seemed like he was very concerned about his tyres too with a lot of laps to go but it didn't seem to be bad at all in the end.


Given the pace of the other cars 5th seems a pretty good result.

Given his quali result it's a bit disappointing, not sure there was anything he could do about alonso, he was so quick when lewis pitted and I don't think Lewis could have stayed out longer.

Not making sure lewis pushed to try and not let vettel overtake is just bizarre...unless they were worrying themselves sick about tyre wear as usual.

I definitely don't like the relationship between lewis and his engineer, I don't know who's fault it is but it needs to be sorted out and if it can't be they need a new engineer (or, if lewis leaves he needs to sort out a better relationship with his new one!).

JB's race ruined at the start obviously.

#3977 hammibal

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:39

Yes he qualified badly. Had it been another circuit maybe he could have done sth more.

Well its more critical at Monaco but not making Q3 at any circuit is not ideal

#3978 P123

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:43

Not making sure lewis pushed to try and not let vettel overtake is just bizarre...unless they were worrying themselves sick about tyre wear as usual.


I think they did. After all the front 4 had pitted they were much slower than Vettel for a good number of laps, and then their pace picked up. LH was hanging on by his fingernails to that 20/21s gap for half a dozen laps or so, and even Alonso was slowly falling back to being consumed by Vettel too. Fortunately for him Vettel's tyres went off.

#3979 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:43

Given the pace of the other cars 5th seems a pretty good result.

Given his quali result it's a bit disappointing, not sure there was anything he could do about alonso, he was so quick when lewis pitted and I don't think Lewis could have stayed out longer.

Not making sure lewis pushed to try and not let vettel overtake is just bizarre...unless they were worrying themselves sick about tyre wear as usual.

I definitely don't like the relationship between lewis and his engineer, I don't know who's fault it is but it needs to be sorted out and if it can't be they need a new engineer (or, if lewis leaves he needs to sort out a better relationship with his new one!).

JB's race ruined at the start obviously.

Don't think he could've done anything about Alonso either, Alonso was in godmode in the lead that one lap. I just heard Lewis' radio call to his engineer 'should've kept me updated'. It's weird, it just sounds weird how that can happen. I think McLaren tried to make him push more but I also heard Lewis at some point saying 'at this race we'll wear out the tyres too quickly' and that made him drop the gap to Alonso/Rosberg. Either way, their relationship is definitely strange. But somehow I can just imagine Jenson in that situation being on the radio with questions like 'What tyres is Vettel on", "What times is Vettel doing" etc. etc. For Lewis it was a complete surprise Vettel came out in front of him, and later on in the race he asked 'what position am I in?', not even realizing he was in 5th. Huh?

Speedwise though, hard to complain about Lewis. He did well to keep up because it definitely didn't look like McLaren was the car to have, especially in traction zones.

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#3980 robefc

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:44

I think they did. After all the front 4 had pitted they were much slower than Vettel for a good number of laps, and then their pace picked up. LH was hanging on by his fingernails to that 20/21s gap for half a dozen laps or so, and even Alonso was slowly falling back to being consumed by Vettel too. Fortunately for him Vettel's tyres went off.


Lewis's radio suggests they didn't?

And there's no way they were going flat out then surely, they were all in tyre conservation mode were they not? I think it was before vettel stopped that macca told him to drive to a delta to ensure he got to the end.

Edited by robefc, 27 May 2012 - 14:45.


#3981 hunnylander

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:44

Button has been kovalained.

Button has been kovalained.™


...on a new level. :(

No offence to anyone (with that slogan), I like JB and respect him both as a person and driver. This car is troublesome and problematic/sensitive with the tyres. Not an excuse, but JB's problems have technical reasons behind them too.

Edited by hunnylander, 27 May 2012 - 14:46.


#3982 anti

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:47

Comparison of the drivers Jenson Button VS Heikki Kovalainen Race Monaco GP 2012 (link)

facepalm

#3983 P123

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:48

Lewis's radio suggests they didn't?

And there's no way they were going flat out then surely, they were all in tyre conservation mode were they not? I think it was before vettel stopped that macca told him to drive to a delta to ensure he got to the end.


I thought I heard LH complain that the pace was too hot, that the tyres wouldn't last?

At that stage I doubt they were all happy to give SV such a pace advanatage and allow him the gap. He was on target to usurp all but his teammate. There is no way they were all sitting back relaxed about when SVs tyres would go off.

#3984 hammibal

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:49

Was it the consequence for Di Resta who qualified 14th?

Your still at extra risk plus often driving for minor points

#3985 robefc

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 14:52

Don't think he could've done anything about Alonso either, Alonso was in godmode in the lead that one lap. I just heard Lewis' radio call to his engineer 'should've kept me updated'. It's weird, it just sounds weird how that can happen. I think McLaren tried to make him push more but I also heard Lewis at some point saying 'at this race we'll wear out the tyres too quickly' and that made him drop the gap to Alonso/Rosberg. Either way, their relationship is definitely strange. But somehow I can just imagine Jenson in that situation being on the radio with questions like 'What tyres is Vettel on", "What times is Vettel doing" etc. etc. For Lewis it was a complete surprise Vettel came out in front of him, and later on in the race he asked 'what position am I in?', not even realizing he was in 5th. Huh?

Speedwise though, hard to complain about Lewis. He did well to keep up because it definitely didn't look like McLaren was the car to have, especially in traction zones.


He never knows what position he is in!

I think he needs a particular type of engineer who can give him the info he needs/wants and understands what info that is, what can be withheld and how/when to speak to lewis.

It's not necessarily the engineer's fault but I'm sort of taking lewis as a given and that it's the engineer who needs to work around that. I don't think lewis is ever going to be a jenson or alonso type driver when it comes to strategy etc, that's potentially a weakness but not necessarily with the right engineer.

I do get the feeling the team and/or his engineer pick and choose what to tell Lewis and don't always get it right. On the other hand maybe it's not easy, Lewis is complaining he can't get to the end at a certain pace so maybe they then don't tell him about vettel...

But that's where I think an engineer could have said look lewis, everyone else is on the same tyres, do your best to look after them and we'll see how we go, if you have problems it's likely they will too.

#3986 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:00

Button has been kovalained.™


...on a new level. :(

No offence to anyone (with that slogan), I like JB and respect him both as a person and driver. This car is troublesome and problematic/sensitive with the tyres. Not an excuse, but JB's problems have technical reasons behind them too.

Had you actually respected Jenson as a person and a driver, you wouldn't write the sentence "Button has been kovalained", on two different occasions. Well at least you got me to bite. :up:

#3987 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:00

Your still at extra risk plus often driving for minor points

True, Di Resta had extra risk indeed. Now what were we talking about.

Edited by Lights, 27 May 2012 - 15:00.


#3988 Towny

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:01

I thought lewis did well considering that the mclaren is struggling in the traction zones. Shame about button but what can you do on a circuit like monaco when strategy is king.

#3989 revlec

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:03

It's not necessarily the engineer's fault but I'm sort of taking lewis as a given and that it's the engineer who needs to work around that. I don't think lewis is ever going to be a jenson or alonso type driver when it comes to strategy etc, that's potentially a weakness but not necessarily with the right engineer.


I think this is not true.
ALO and BUT did have their engineers too. You talk like they were racing only by looking at pit boards and their delta times.
Today before the race, the Italian TV have shown a screen in the Ferrari box where they see GPS times of all the drivers on the track and inform both ALO and MAS in real time about the gaps(not the laptimes).

Lewis engineering team is just poor at it.

Edited by revlec, 27 May 2012 - 15:04.


#3990 jjcale

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:09

Don't think he could've done anything about Alonso either, Alonso was in godmode in the lead that one lap. I just heard Lewis' radio call to his engineer 'should've kept me updated'. It's weird, it just sounds weird how that can happen. I think McLaren tried to make him push more but I also heard Lewis at some point saying 'at this race we'll wear out the tyres too quickly' and that made him drop the gap to Alonso/Rosberg. Either way, their relationship is definitely strange. But somehow I can just imagine Jenson in that situation being on the radio with questions like 'What tyres is Vettel on", "What times is Vettel doing" etc. etc. For Lewis it was a complete surprise Vettel came out in front of him, and later on in the race he asked 'what position am I in?', not even realizing he was in 5th. Huh?

Speedwise though, hard to complain about Lewis. He did well to keep up because it definitely didn't look like McLaren was the car to have, especially in traction zones.


LH is LH ... but you would think the engineer/team would have figured out how to work with him by now.

#3991 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:10

He never knows what position he is in!

I think he needs a particular type of engineer who can give him the info he needs/wants and understands what info that is, what can be withheld and how/when to speak to lewis.

It's not necessarily the engineer's fault but I'm sort of taking lewis as a given and that it's the engineer who needs to work around that. I don't think lewis is ever going to be a jenson or alonso type driver when it comes to strategy etc, that's potentially a weakness but not necessarily with the right engineer.

I do get the feeling the team and/or his engineer pick and choose what to tell Lewis and don't always get it right. On the other hand maybe it's not easy, Lewis is complaining he can't get to the end at a certain pace so maybe they then don't tell him about vettel...

But that's where I think an engineer could have said look lewis, everyone else is on the same tyres, do your best to look after them and we'll see how we go, if you have problems it's likely they will too.

To be fair though, this subject hasn't been issued in some time, although perhaps that's because it got overshadowed by the pitcrew...

About a year ago it was a common complaint, but I figured they worked on it and solved it. This year it hasn't been that bad if I remember correctly. But based on the communication I don't know what was going on. On the same note, the pitwall sadly didn't reveal much communication with Jenson either, but both were badly informed about the rain as well on several occasions, constantly saying stuff like "there could be opportunities for us" which never ever really come true. In general I feel McLaren is always trying to paint a too positive picture on the radio, and that's getting a bit tiring lately.

I remember, after Hamilton complained about Vettel passing him, they told Lewis "Still 31 laps left, a lot of racing to go". Are you frickin kidding me? :confused: It's done and dusted, what were they smoking.

But would you want Hamilton to have an engineer like Smedley them, talking him through the race like he's some baby? "Ok Felipe, the thing is that Vettel is on the harder tyres, and he used to be a bit faster but lately he's being a little slower than us, blablablalba" :D

#3992 Boxerevo

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:12

Drivers do not like someone talking with them all the time when racing.

But this is a thing only Lewis and his team can get perfect,none said here is plausible,we really don't know enough to give an opinion.

#3993 hunnylander

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:13

Had you actually respected Jenson as a person and a driver, you wouldn't write the sentence "Button has been kovalained", on two different occasions. Well at least you got me to bite. :up:

It's just a short creative expression to describe what I have seen happening. It, in itself, doesn't detail or analyze the happening.

It may have many different meanings and contexts, theoretically, even sabotaging/hindering JB or just shit happens for whatever reasons to anyone.

I was defending JB a couple of weeks ago, even I was mistaken to be a JB fan by some, and 'attacked' for it etc.

I know how I feel towards JB, misinterpreting my stupid words won't change that. I'm not an antifan of JB. I just like to invent stupid words and slogans in many subject without any evil intentions. Just for fun. It's a 'feature' of me. I'm watching and foruming about F1 for fun. :)

Sorry, but I can't uninvent that slogan. It's an intellectual property too. :p

Cheers!

Edited by hunnylander, 27 May 2012 - 15:16.


#3994 robefc

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:15

But would you want Hamilton to have an engineer like Smedley them, talking him through the race like he's some baby? "Ok Felipe, the thing is that Vettel is on the harder tyres, and he used to be a bit faster but lately he's being a little slower than us, blablablalba" :D


:lol:

I would like to think there's a happy medium somewhere.

Regarding the rain, the massive focus on the weather on F1 is driving me nuts, not just mclaren, everyone is fixated by it and it never bloody arrives when they predict it if at all! I reckon they'd be much better off just running theur strategy and reacting to actual events rather than trying to guess.

#3995 fieraku

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:18

I think this is not true.
ALO and BUT did have their engineers too. You talk like they were racing only by looking at pit boards and their delta times.
Today before the race, the Italian TV have shown a screen in the Ferrari box where they see GPS times of all the drivers on the track and inform both ALO and MAS in real time about the gaps(not the laptimes).

Lewis engineering team is just poor at it.

With 5laps to go,says it all really.


Pit to Lewis: “We're currently in fifth. First place is 2s ahead.”

“What position am I in?”

#3996 Clatter

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:21

in this way he can have a new car (new engine, new gearbox, new frame) at next race...


He could have had those anyway. The gearbox is the only thing he gets to change for free.

#3997 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:22

It's just a short creative expression to describe what I have seen happening. It, in itself, doesn't detail or analyze the happening.

It may have many different meanings and contexts, theoretically, even sabotaging/hindering JB or just shit happens for whatever reasons to anyone.

I was defending JB a couple of weeks ago, even I was mistaken to be a JB fan by some, and 'attacked' for it etc.

I know how I feel towards JB, misinterpreting my stupid words won't change that. I'm not an antifan of JB. I just like to invent stupid words and slogans in many subject without any evil intentions. Just for fun. I'm watching and foruming about F1 for fun. :)

Sorry, but I can't uninvent that slogan. It's an intellectual property too. :p

Cheers!

Strange hobby, but fair enough then. Keep up the fun.

#3998 Lights

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:26

:lol:

I would like to think there's a happy medium somewhere.

Regarding the rain, the massive focus on the weather on F1 is driving me nuts, not just mclaren, everyone is fixated by it and it never bloody arrives when they predict it if at all! I reckon they'd be much better off just running theur strategy and reacting to actual events rather than trying to guess.

Well in this case, I felt like it was just a way of giving their drivers hope. Like, you're not in the position you want to be in, but hey, look on the bright side, there's rain to come! Opportunities! etc.

Had the rain arrived McLaren would have only reacted to it in the wrong way though. Although Red Bull would've had the most damage as they had 2 drivers up front.

#3999 hammibal

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:31

I think they did. After all the front 4 had pitted they were much slower than Vettel for a good number of laps, and then their pace picked up. LH was hanging on by his fingernails to that 20/21s gap for half a dozen laps or so, and even Alonso was slowly falling back to being consumed by Vettel too. Fortunately for him Vettel's tyres went off.



I thought I heard LH complain that the pace was too hot, that the tyres wouldn't last?

At that stage I doubt they were all happy to give SV such a pace advanatage and allow him the gap. He was on target to usurp all but his teammate. There is no way they were all sitting back relaxed about when SVs tyres would go off.

Well it was his teammate controlling the pace at the front so read into that what you want

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#4000 Obi Offiah

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 15:32

With 5laps to go,says it all really.


Pit to Lewis: “We're currently in fifth. First place is 2s ahead.”

“What position am I in?”

I don't understand that communication. Andy has just told Lewis he is in fifth, so why would Lewis respond asking to know what position he is in.