32 replies to this topic

[Racegamer]

Greetings All...

I tried this thread under "Historical Research", but received no responses. Maybe someone here can help?

I'm trying to do some comparisons & wonder if anyone has any info on the following:

I want to find out what the approximate top straightaway speed during a race (a car alone - not a slipstreaming car) would have been in 1960 (end of the 2.5 liter era), 1965 (end of the 1.5 liter cars) and 1970 (3.0 liter cars- but wings/aerodynamics are still in their infancy) on a high-speed track (i.e: Monza).

I thought I read somewhere that the 1.5 liter cars would have a hard time hitting 160 mph, but I can't find that reference again.

I can find tons of info on engine BHP, power-to-weight ratios, car weights, etc. I even found mention of a study that talked about increased drag & loss of HP at speed with wings at various angles, but I can't find info on what speeds these cars might have attained.

Not looking for a precise figure, just a ballpark one, at the moment.

Thanks!

Bill W.

[Geoff E]

Dan Gurney's Eagle was clocked at 196mph at Spa in 1967 (somewhat downhill I think).

Edited by Geoff E, 16 March 2012 - 17:15.

[Ray Bell]

This might be a bit of a guide...

At Bathurst there was a timed flying eighth mile, it was there for years and I imagine it was operated by some people experienced in setting it up year after year and reading the findings.

Bill Patterson in a 1959 (David will correct me if I'm wrong...) or thereabouts Cooper with a Climax FPF engine recorded 169.81mph through that flying eighth.

To give you an idea of the relevance of that speed, it was on a very long straight at about three-quarters distance down the straight and was approached with a downhill run. I'm pretty sure the year was 1962, so I think Bill had a 2.5-litre engine in that car. It might not have been a 'factory' 2.5, however, but possibly a locally-made crank etc to bring it up to size.

What I'm saying there is I believe it is possible that Bill was down on power compared to the output of the 'works' 2.5 Climax cars of 1960. Then again, as it was a Formula Libre situation, he might well have been running some good fuel, but I doubt it.

A year later David McKay in a BT4 Brabham with a 2.7-litre Climax engine equalled that speed.

So, as far as judging the maximum speeds of the 1960 2.5 Climax-engined cars goes, this might be a good starting point.

Speeds at Longford were also timed, that was flat with a very long run-up, but out of a tight-ish corner and uphill for some distance. But a good half-mile or more of flat run after the climb. I don't have anything here on those speeds, I think David Shaw might well be able to source Sports Car World reports that will have.

[Roger Clark]

Brabham's Cooper was timed at 182.5mph at Reims in 1959. The 1960 car would have been a little faster with reduced frontal area and perhaps a little more power, but probably not much above 185.

Maximum speed for an open wheeled car varies with the cube root of the ratio between power and frontal area, so a 1961 Cooper, which was essentially the same car with 60% of the power would do about 155.

By 1965, power had increased by about 30% in comparison with 1961, the cars were significantly smaller, though this was balanced to some extent by wider (but smaller diameter) wheels and tyres. They were probably close to the 1959 levels on maximum speed.

All this assumes a straight long enough for speed out of the last corner to be irrelevant and gearing for maximum speed, so Reims, Spa or Monza.

[Ray Bell]

It's telling that Brabham's lap record at Spa was soon enough eclipsed by the 1.5-litre cars...

I think that was 1965, wasn't it?

[Roger Clark]

It's telling that Brabham's lap record at Spa was soon enough eclipsed by the 1.5-litre cars...

I think that was 1965, wasn't it?

Almost five seconds faster in practice. It rained during the race, of course. Gurney's pole position in 1964 was within a second of Brabham's 1960 time. I think this is what we would expect from similar maximum speed and vastly improved road holding.

[D-Type]

In a 1963 book Laurence Pomeroy (Jnr) gives the maximum speed of a F1 car, depending on gearing, as as 145mph (Monaco) to 160mph (Monza) as compared to 1937 figures of 122 mph and 166mph. The difference being explained by comparatively better cornering power not requiring as low gearing at the slower circuits.

[Roger Clark]

Pomeroy's figure for the 1963 cars at Monza seems about right, but Monaco is high. Did the 1937 cars race at Monza?

[David McKinney]

Don't think so. As you know, that year's Italian GP was run at Leghorn

But they would surely have tested at Monza?

[Cavalier53]

265 kph was announced for the Lotus 49, when Graham Hill had completed his pole position lap of 1.24.6 on its' debut at Zandvoort in 67. I would guess that was measured at the start/finish line, so still aro. 200 m before the start of the braking zone, all from memory.

Although longer then nowadays, not a straight of the length mentioned above!

Of course, this was before wings, and I seem to remember speeds remained similar for quite a number of years despite the increase in DFV power with the advent of wings.

[D-Type]

Pomeroy's figure for the 1963 cars at Monza seems about right, but Monaco is high. Did the 1937 cars race at Monza?

This came from a chapter about gear ratios rather than top speed as such and he uses Monaco and Monza as examples of twisty slow circuits and fast circuits. He tabulates maximum and minimum speeds in all 4 gears as
1st gear - 60mph & 73 mph
2nd gear - 93.5mph & 114 mph
3rd gear - 96 mph & 132 mph
4th gear 122mph & 166 mph
He then goes on to say:
"... So, on the [V8] BRM for example, an engine speed of 10, 000rpm would normally equal: 40-70 mph on first gear; 85-100 mph on second gear; 100-125 mph on third gear; 125-145 mph on fourth gear; 145-160 mph on fifth gear"

[Roger Clark]

This came from a chapter about gear ratios rather than top speed as such and he uses Monaco and Monza as examples of twisty slow circuits and fast circuits. He tabulates maximum and minimum speeds in all 4 gears as
1st gear - 60mph & 73 mph
2nd gear - 93.5mph & 114 mph
3rd gear - 96 mph & 132 mph
4th gear 122mph & 166 mph
He then goes on to say:
"... So, on the [V8] BRM for example, an engine speed of 10, 000rpm would normally equal: 40-70 mph on first gear; 85-100 mph on second gear; 100-125 mph on third gear; 125-145 mph on fourth gear; 145-160 mph on fifth gear"

I think you're referring to The Racing Car Explained, but I can't see where he says that the 1963 cars reached 145mph at Monaco.

[Roger Clark]

Don't think so. As you know, that year's Italian GP was run at Leghorn

But they would surely have tested at Monza?

Mercedes certainly did but I don't know what configuration of circuit they used. Denis Jenkinson, in his book on the W125, gives a lap time about 10 seconds longer than Rosemeyer achieved in the 1936 Grand Prix. That race had as many chicanes as the modern circuit and a left turn half way along the straight to Vedano to bring them onto the back straight of the banked circuit and the Curva Sud.

However, I'm sure that the maximum speeds at Tripoli and AVUS would have been at least as high as they could have achieved at Monza.

Edited by Roger Clark, 18 March 2012 - 07:20.

[D-Type]

I think you're referring to The Racing Car Explained, but I can't see where he says that the 1963 cars reached 145mph at Monaco.

Yes, that's the book. He states "145mph - 160mph in fifth gear" which implies a maximum speed in 5th of 145 mph with "Monaco" gearing. He does not say (and neither did I) that they actually attained that speed at Monaco.

Edited by D-Type, 18 March 2012 - 18:09.

[nmansellfan]

I put together an excel file of the top speed recorded each year from the 1950 - 2010 GP seasons Bill, a couple of years ago. There are some gaps where I hadn't got any info, and some of the data I couldn't verify myself, but I can post it here if you want. Makes for some interesting stat reading in a quiet hour!

Edited by nmansellfan, 19 March 2012 - 12:44.

[Racegamer]

To nmansellfan:

I would LOVE to see that file! If you don't want to have to convert it & paste it into a forum post, maybe you could Email it to me?

Also, thanks Very Much to everyone who has participated on this thread, I really appreciate it.

Bill W.

[nmansellfan]

To nmansellfan:

I would LOVE to see that file! If you don't want to have to convert it & paste it into a forum post, maybe you could Email it to me?

Also, thanks Very Much to everyone who has participated on this thread, I really appreciate it.

Bill W.

Hi Bill, PM me your email address and I'll send you the file, as the forum code for inputting a table has beaten me hands down!

[xj13v12]

If the question is terminal speed LJK Setright mentions some in his book The Grand Prix Car 1954-1966. He says that the 2.5 litre Cooper of Brabham was timed at 182.5 mph at Reims while the Lotus 18 made 185. The 3 litre Repco-Brabham only reached 172 although it could pull 185 when assisted by a tow in the slipstream of the Ferrari. The book goes into great detail about the effects of aerodynamics/drag of both car and tyres but also how the new tyre construction created more rolling resistance which reduced the top speed of the more powerful cars of 1966.
Speeds of 165 mph are mentioned in "The Limit" referring in particular to the Ferraris of Hill and Von Trips on some circuits but up to a doubtful 180 mph at others so the question of accurate speeds for the 1.5 litre cars is not really answered.
Indy car of similar technology but greater power were pulling 190-195 mph by 1966.

[D-Type]

And don't forget Pomeroy's point that top speed depends on gearing. I think Reims saw the highest speeds on the long straights, but because of the sharpness of the corners a lower average speed over a lap than Spa. I don't know, but I suspect the gearing may have been higher for Reims.

[xj13v12]

And don't forget Pomeroy's point that top speed depends on gearing. I think Reims saw the highest speeds on the long straights, but because of the sharpness of the corners a lower average speed over a lap than Spa. I don't know, but I suspect the gearing may have been higher for Reims.

Right without doubt. When the Hewland transaxle came along the ability to change every gear ratio meant that the interim gears could be easily set to maximise torque out of corners or peak revs in a gear prior to braking as well as getting top gear maximised for the particlular circuit. Other boxes had that ability to a point but not as simple as the Hewland. The ZF was much more difficult and diff ratio changes were a common way of changing the gearing of the entire box. I don't know much about the Colloti but 5 speeds became common around that time. When determining the ratios to be used for a circuit the top gear was arbitrated by the car's maximum (based on power/drag) on that particular main straight. Reims was very long, Monaco very short. "The Limit" talked of 120 mph there so clearly the gearing was completely different from circuit to cicuit.
The theoretical maximum took into account the availablity of slip streaming as over revving could mean pulling an extra 800 rpm for example. Monza was a good example of that and Gethin's famous win there saw him use an extra 1,000 rpm briefly owing to the use of slipstream. In the Brabham example there was a 13 mph difference between unassisted and slipsteam top speed at Reims. Today in historic racing it is common for me to use 3 different top gears for different circuits with intermediates changed accordingly, that's with wing cars. The pre-wing cars might have had a greater disparity between top speeds at different circuits. Wings generate so much drag that the top speed is partly determined by the wing settings balanced to optimise handling over the full circuit. There is a trade off between possible top speed and useful cornering downforce. That's why today's cars are not substantially quicker at top speed than cars of the 60s, top speed does not yield best lap times.
This is also why the most idiotic question an interviewer can ask is "how fast does your car go?" The answer is "as fast as a given circuit will allow me".
If someone wanted to post an example of a Hewland ratio chart you would see how many options are available.

[Racegamer]

Greetings All...

Thanks so much to everyone for their input. I totally understand the relationship between circuit "type" (Monaco vs. Spa) and gearing for functionality and efficiency: no need to set your gear ratios for the car to hit 180mph if the max speed you can reach (based on the length of the straight & the speed you have exiting the corner into the straight) is only 165mph, regardless of gearing.

I was (and am still) very interested in the actual speeds cars reached at Spa, Reims, etc. vs. Monaco or Watkins Glen. It helps put into perspective, for me, the evolution of the Grand Prix car... Going from the late 50's (bigger cars, 2.5 liter engines, relatively primitive tires, etc.) to the mid-60's (small engines but lighter cars with less frontal area, smaller diameter tires, but wider, etc.), into the 3 liter era (not much more weight than in 1965, vastly greater power, even wider tires, and so on). I'm sure the 1.5 liter cars lapped as fast as they did (compared to the 2.5's) due to faster, more efficient, cornering - as well as the technological developments in chassis & suspension design. By the end of the 60's, the introduction of aerodynamic aids would certainly have inhibited top speed; but, I'm sure, the cornering speeds were terrifying high (and constantly increasing) compared to the earlier cars.

Theoretical top speed really isn't what I was wondering about (how fast will your car go?). I am interested in the whole picture of race car development during this time. Tires, suspension, chassis, etc. were all evolving at a fantastic pace; and how this facilitated an underpowered F1 car in 1963 to exit the Parabolica at a fast enough speed to allow it to hit the speeds it DID manage at the time fascinates me. My favorite period of F1 is 1958 - 1968 & the whole top speed question was a starting point for me in trying to quantify the performance differences (in all aspects) between these eras. There seems to be tons of info on car specifications: weight, BHP, suspension type, etc. but very little on the speeds actually reached. I'd really love to compile a map of each circuit used at the time showing speeds reached at various parts of each circuit (exiting each corner, just before braking, and so on) by cars from these 3 eras. In fact, I think it would be absolutely awesome to be able to show where cars of each era changed gears at each circuit!

I saw several books quoted from various posters here that I'll have to look into acquiring... Anyone have other titles that they recommend?


Again, thanks for all the reponses and for sharing your thoughts and experiences. You guys are great!

Bill W.

[xj13v12]

Greetings All...

Thanks so much to everyone for their input. I totally understand the relationship between circuit "type" (Monaco vs. Spa) and gearing for functionality and efficiency: no need to set your gear ratios for the car to hit 180mph if the max speed you can reach (based on the length of the straight & the speed you have exiting the corner into the straight) is only 165mph, regardless of gearing.

I was (and am still) very interested in the actual speeds cars reached at Spa, Reims, etc. vs. Monaco or Watkins Glen. It helps put into perspective, for me, the evolution of the Grand Prix car... Going from the late 50's (bigger cars, 2.5 liter engines, relatively primitive tires, etc.) to the mid-60's (small engines but lighter cars with less frontal area, smaller diameter tires, but wider, etc.), into the 3 liter era (not much more weight than in 1965, vastly greater power, even wider tires, and so on). I'm sure the 1.5 liter cars lapped as fast as they did (compared to the 2.5's) due to faster, more efficient, cornering - as well as the technological developments in chassis & suspension design. By the end of the 60's, the introduction of aerodynamic aids would certainly have inhibited top speed; but, I'm sure, the cornering speeds were terrifying high (and constantly increasing) compared to the earlier cars.

Theoretical top speed really isn't what I was wondering about (how fast will your car go?). I am interested in the whole picture of race car development during this time. Tires, suspension, chassis, etc. were all evolving at a fantastic pace; and how this facilitated an underpowered F1 car in 1963 to exit the Parabolica at a fast enough speed to allow it to hit the speeds it DID manage at the time fascinates me. My favorite period of F1 is 1958 - 1968 & the whole top speed question was a starting point for me in trying to quantify the performance differences (in all aspects) between these eras. There seems to be tons of info on car specifications: weight, BHP, suspension type, etc. but very little on the speeds actually reached. I'd really love to compile a map of each circuit used at the time showing speeds reached at various parts of each circuit (exiting each corner, just before braking, and so on) by cars from these 3 eras. In fact, I think it would be absolutely awesome to be able to show where cars of each era changed gears at each circuit!

I saw several books quoted from various posters here that I'll have to look into acquiring... Anyone have other titles that they recommend?


Again, thanks for all the reponses and for sharing your thoughts and experiences. You guys are great!

Bill W.

I wasn't suggesting that you were only interested in what top speed was so please don't take offence at my comment. Surprisingly it is still the most asked question I get when people see one of my cars. What will it do? Australian T.V. did an interview with Sir Jack Brabham in the Australian Stories series and first question was "how fast did your car go Jack?" Bloody embarassing.

The Limit cites rising speeds often, Go Like Hell covers the period well centering on LeMans cars Ford GT and Ferrari but also Surtees time at Ferrari F1. I would think that Motorsport and Autosport race reports of the period would mention terminal speeds but there was a tendency to focus on average lap speed, quite rightly.
I will look through for other titles which give detail on increasing speeds of the period, pity they didn't have telemetry and no one pushes those cars at race speeds today to get an idea although (ignoring superior tyres available now) I would think it a simple exercise to fit a unit to an historic F1 car at Goodwood today. Maybe someone has already done it? I know that the lightweight E-Type guys have done it.
The other reasonable avenue is to get someone familiar with the Playstation game Grand Prix Legends which uses tracks as they were and apparently very accurate representations of handling and top speeds according to actual owners of some of those cars who have used the game with sophisticated cockpits/controls.
I am just as interested as you are having already read much of what is available.
I haven't fitted my telemetry box to my pre-wing car yet but I know those cars have a completely different feel to the wings and slicks cars. "Slippery"! One can clearly feel the lack of drag compared to the later cars.

[nmansellfan]

Grand Prix Legends, while being one of the best PC sims ever, is a little inaccurate in places with it's power outputs for each of the cars from the 1967 seaons it's based on, and the low speed grip. It's pretty darn good though still! In the sim, I can get an Eagle Weslake to creep just over 200mph at the old Spa before Masta and before Stavelot, with the Lotus 49 a little slower, and the Ferrari 312/67, Honda RA300, Brabham BT24, BRM P115 and Cooper T86 slightly slower, usually in that order, all without slipstreaming. (I'm sure your thinking some of those models never ran at Spa in '67 and your right!) I'm not the best sim driver in the world by any means though, but I do drive it as close as I can to how it should be with the equipment I have - right foot braking, no speedshifting, etc.

I have read somewhere that Jim Clark (Michael Olivers Lotus 49 book?) at Spa in '67 was timed at 193mph, hitting the rev limiter (a new fangled device on the DFV at the time), and describing it as 'like hitting a brick wall', indicating there was more speed to come, but a ratio change meant a whole ZF gearbox change IIRC? I've also read somewhere that Jochen Rindt's wingless Lotus 72 was geared for 205mph at Monza that fateful day.

What car do you run xj13v12? No sim can ever give the feeling of driving a real racing car - mores the pity, looking at my bank balance...

[xj13v12]

Grand Prix Legends, while being one of the best PC sims ever, is a little inaccurate in places with it's power outputs for each of the cars from the 1967 seaons it's based on, and the low speed grip. It's pretty darn good though still! In the sim, I can get an Eagle Weslake to creep just over 200mph at the old Spa before Masta and before Stavelot, with the Lotus 49 a little slower, and the Ferrari 312/67, Honda RA300, Brabham BT24, BRM P115 and Cooper T86 slightly slower, usually in that order, all without slipstreaming. (I'm sure your thinking some of those models never ran at Spa in '67 and your right!) I'm not the best sim driver in the world by any means though, but I do drive it as close as I can to how it should be with the equipment I have - right foot braking, no speedshifting, etc.

I have read somewhere that Jim Clark (Michael Olivers Lotus 49 book?) at Spa in '67 was timed at 193mph, hitting the rev limiter (a new fangled device on the DFV at the time), and describing it as 'like hitting a brick wall', indicating there was more speed to come, but a ratio change meant a whole ZF gearbox change IIRC? I've also read somewhere that Jochen Rindt's wingless Lotus 72 was geared for 205mph at Monza that fateful day.

What car do you run xj13v12? No sim can ever give the feeling of driving a real racing car - mores the pity, looking at my bank balance...

That's good info and much along the lines I expected.
The day I was watching people using top quality G.P. Legends they included actual owners of some of the real cars. They commented how realistic the handling and accelaration were. I think they were at the 'ring. I haven't found a sim yet that was remotely like a real car but if I do I will buy it.
If you message me I will tell you which cars I have raced, none of them F1.

[xj13v12]

Racegamer, you might be interested in 2 recent books XJ13 and Ultimate E-Type which have exactly what you are looking for, albeit sportscars, from test days at Goodwood, LeMans etc. These show terminal and interim speeds, Crown wheel and pinion ratios, tyre sizes etc. In sports car racing at that time, particularly at LeMans, peak speed for the long straight was of paramount importance and many books refer to car speeds and the increase in those top speeds during the 50s and 60s culminating in the unheard of speed of the Ford GT and then Porsche 917.
I am sure similar detailed information exists in books on F1 cars of the period but I am yet to find them. From the car set up point of view the teams would have used the longest gear the car could pull at each track to reach maximum power of the engine. However people often think this is the be all and end all of the gearing but that's not the case. Even back then they were realising that torque wins races not necessarily b.h.p. The 1966 season is an excellant case in point. Power to weight was the aim of the designer Ron Tauranac and usable torque. If you read the development of the Cosworth DFV you will note its early draw backs and how it was both achievable b.h.p. AND improved torque characteristics which made it such a great engine after some development.
In 1967 Hulme had that advantage with the Repco-Brabham and it was his accelaration or pull out of corners that left his competitors reeling. By the time they caught him it was time to brake and corner. From everything I have read it looks like the Brabham with Repco power was one of the slowest cars in a straight line measuring peak speed. However the accelaration through the gears was probably the best in the field.
Nevertheless your research is valid and hopefully someone will soon post some test data from some of the teams from the time.

[ellrosso]

I've found a few top speeds from Longford - not quite in the same league as Spa or Reims by the sounds of it but interesting nontheless. 1959 had Arnold Glass topping out at 157 mph in the Maserati 250F. Brabham and Mildren shared fastest speeds in Cooper Climax and Cooper Maserati respectively at 157.9 in 1960.
1961 had a big jump with Brabham doing 168.5 in the T53 Cooper Climax. Surtees and Brabham shared 171 in 1962 (both Cooper Climax 2.5 mounted). Speeds hovered around the 170 mark till 1968 when Clark and G Hill topped 176 in the Lotus 49 Cosworth's. Amon did 182 in the Ferrari P4 that year. As Ray mentioned the flat part of the Flying Mile was only around 1/2 mile so the run-up wasn't the same as Reims for example. Wind could also be a major factor too

[Paul Taylor]

If the question is terminal speed LJK Setright mentions some in his book The Grand Prix Car 1954-1966. He says that the 2.5 litre Cooper of Brabham was timed at 182.5 mph at Reims while the Lotus 18 made 185. The 3 litre Repco-Brabham only reached 172 although it could pull 185 when assisted by a tow in the slipstream of the Ferrari. The book goes into great detail about the effects of aerodynamics/drag of both car and tyres but also how the new tyre construction created more rolling resistance which reduced the top speed of the more powerful cars of 1966.

 

According to Wikipeda, Brabham's slipstream gains at Reims in 1966 were 13 km/h rather than 13 mph. Source seems to be Brabham - The man and the machines by Colin Pitt.

 

Which is correct?

[Roger Clark]

The Motor Racing report on the 1966 French GP says: “While Brabham was getting his tow from Bandini, he was able to touch 182 miles an hour down the Thillois straight, but when he got out of the Ferrari slipstream his maximum speed dropped to 174 mph”. The 8mph is equivalent to 13kmph. 
 

in the same magazine a month later, LJK Setright wrote: “In fact you may recall that Brabham commented in the pages after the French Grand Prix that his maximum speed on the Reims was slightly lower than in earlier years, although when he had the benefit of a tow from a Ferrari it did rise to over 180 mph.”  If Setright is referring to the Jack Brabham column, he doesn’t actually say that. He refers to trying to get a tow from Bandini during practice but not getting much benefit. He does say of Spa: “That year (1960) with a 2 1/2 litre Climax giving something like 60 horsepower less than the Repco V8 this year, we were able to touch 178 miles an hour. This year, the highest speed I could show was 172 miles an hour”.  

 

I wouldn’t take everything Setright wrote as the unvarnished truth.  

[Ray Bell]

It's pretty hard to get the 'unvarnished truth', of course...

 

Drivers might make statements, they might misread the tacho or even not be quite in touch with changes in gear ratios.

 

Additionally, if the car was geared to do, say, 195mph it might have trouble going as quickly as if it were geared to do 180.

 

That said, they should be on top of those things by the end of the first practice session...

[Roger Clark]

It's pretty hard to get the 'unvarnished truth', of course...

 

Drivers might make statements, they might misread the tacho or even not be quite in touch with changes in gear ratios.

 

Additionally, if the car was geared to do, say, 195mph it might have trouble going as quickly as if it were geared to do 180.

 

That said, they should be on top of those things by the end of the first practice session...

I suspect Jack Brabham was better than most.

[mariner]

I think the whole "top speed" discussion went sideways once wings arrived as  extra drag so less top speed was usually the best trade off for lap time.

 

 

Going back to pre wings the same thing was true to some extent as well. In his 1966 interview  with Motor magazine Colin Chapman was extremely forthcoming about the development of the Lotus 25/33 and said despite all the extra Climax power from FI and  4 valve heads the top speed hardly rose due to wider tyres with softer compounds.

Edited by mariner, 27 March 2022 - 12:59.

[Bloggsworth]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Fangio was said to have topped 200mph in a V16 BRM - sounds unlikely to me.

[Ray Bell]

At Albi, if I recall...

 

If not 200, at least very close to it.