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Will Massa finish the season with Ferrari? Replacements? [merged]


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Poll: Will Felipe Massa finish the season with Ferrari? (917 member(s) have cast votes)

Will Felipe Massa finish the season with Ferrari?

  1. Yes. (378 votes [41.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.27%

  2. No. (538 votes [58.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.73%

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#1701 Hippo

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 22:41

If I was in charge at Ferrari I'd hire someone like Sutil. Cheap to hire and good in the wet which is always an indicator that he doesn't suck.

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#1702 metz

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 18:08

it's strange to think about when he arrived to F1 and was considered aggressive, fast and exciting

Either you believe all the self hyping PR or you have a bad memory.
His days at Sauber were awful.
After that, for a guy that has spent his entire career in a top car, he has not done enough.
He's a very nice person but everyone knows only the Todt connection keeps him employed.

#1703 Sakae

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 19:04

Massa will finish where he is, and he might even be there next year for lack of better options, as there is no point to replace Massa 1 with Massa clone 2, and LDM doesn’t likes rookies or inexperienced drivers. (So he says). Like it or not, whilst I am not sure what plans are for 2014, but for next year Rosberg could be a good choice for them. He has experience, he might want to leave Mercedes, he can drive well and quietly; all ingredients for heavenly love.

#1704 Lennat

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 21:44

Rosberg would be a perfect number two indeed.

#1705 Disgrace

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 23:28

He will not readily become number two after three years of beating the statistically most successful driver of all time. Ferrari will need someone who is a beggar rather than chooser, i.e Sutil/Kovalainen/Senna.

I'm not sure why there is concern that these drivers will become a "Massa clone" as frankly, Massa is doing so bad that the only possible driver who might have less points in the same car is Karthikeyan.

Edited by Disgrace, 09 August 2012 - 23:29.


#1706 Kraze

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:42

Any driver who values his career would shudder to think about moving to Ferrari after seeing how Ferrari "broke" Massa.

Ferrari's only choices are drivers who drive for backmarkers and I really doubt they are going to do a better job than Massa.

#1707 Ferrari2183

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:42

Any driver who values his career would shudder to think about moving to Ferrari after seeing how Ferrari "broke" Massa.

Ferrari's only choices are drivers who drive for backmarkers and I really doubt they are going to do a better job than Massa.

This is laughable. Ferrari broke Massa? I'm afraid his performances are of his own doing.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 10 August 2012 - 10:42.


#1708 as65p

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:44

Any driver who values his career would shudder to think about moving to Ferrari after seeing how Ferrari "broke" Massa.


Any driver that can be broken that way deserves no better.

#1709 kosmos

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:23

Any driver who values his career would shudder to think about moving to Ferrari after seeing how Ferrari "broke" Massa.


Did Massa "broke" Ferrari's chances to get more titles?.


#1710 Kraze

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:25

This is laughable. Ferrari broke Massa? I'm afraid his performances are of his own doing.



Any driver that can be broken that way deserves no better.



Did Massa "broke" Ferrari's chances to get more titles?.



it is a bit difficult situation for any driver in a team when he knows his team always expects him to perform near nearly as good as his team-mate but under no circumstance will they "allow" him to outperform his team-mate.

I am guessing all this hullabaloo will end when Ferrari fires Massa at the end of this season. Next year, the media and team fans will get a new target (driver).


#1711 Sakae

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:32

He will not readily become number two after three years of beating the statistically most successful driver of all time. Ferrari will need someone who is a beggar rather than chooser, i.e Sutil/Kovalainen/Senna.

I'm not sure why there is concern that these drivers will become a "Massa clone" as frankly, Massa is doing so bad that the only possible driver who might have less points in the same car is Karthikeyan.

Statistically..? Is there any other way? Maybe we can set up a working session with FiA to augment, if not downright replace their scoring system, if you have a few good ideas.

#1712 Ferrari2183

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:35

it is a bit difficult situation for any driver in a team when he knows his team always expects him to perform near nearly as good as his team-mate but under no circumstance will they "allow" him to outperform his team-mate.

I am guessing all this hullabaloo will end when Ferrari fires Massa at the end of this season. Next year, the media and team fans will get a new target (driver).

Massa's predicament is of his own doing. While his teammate is out winning races he is fighting with the midfield and sometimes lower. When Alonso arrived on the scene Massa was allowed to challenge but since then he himself hasn't been close.

I still maintain that if Massa can keep himself in contention in the early going the team won't have to resort to these measures as was the case in early 2010. But as it is they have no option because his form fluctuates horribly.

#1713 Kraze

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:37

Statistically..? Is there any other way? Maybe we can set up a working session with FiA to augment, if not downright replace their scoring system, if you have a few good ideas.


check Germany 2010 grand prix, its a proof that Massa "was not allowed" to outperform his "superior" team-mate.

#1714 Ferrari2183

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:42

check Germany 2010 grand prix, its a proof that Massa "was not allowed" to outperform his "superior" team-mate.

Yes. But by that time Alonso had already stamped his authority. You can't have a driver who performs once every 3 races taking points off a driver who is more likely to challenge on a consistent basis. It makes no sense!

The goal of the team is to win not one but "both" championships, and this is not going to happen when the slower driver takes points off the other whenever he is the mood.

#1715 Disgrace

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:43

check Germany 2010 grand prix, its a proof that Massa "was not allowed" to outperform his "superior" team-mate.


Check Australia 2010, Massa was very much allowed to outperform Alonso. The difference being that at this point, Massa was still seen as a credible championship challenger, and went on to lead it after Malaysia.

His early 2010 form is almost enough for me to suggest his 2009 accident has very little to do with his current form, for it has been by far his best since his return and he has only become worse.

Edited by Disgrace, 10 August 2012 - 12:44.


#1716 Jovanotti

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:46

The goal of the team is to win not one but "both" championships, and this is not going to happen when the slower driver takes points off the other whenever he is the mood.

You'll never win both championships with a driver that only scores when he's in the mood...

#1717 Ferrari2183

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:51

You'll never win both championships with a driver that only scores when he's in the mood...

Indeed, but does that mean you must sacrifice the drivers championship as well?

#1718 Cool Beans

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:58

Indeed, but does that mean you must sacrifice the drivers championship as well?

With a slow driver the team has no chance of WCC. That's where they get money from and it's the target they aim for. You have a better chance of WCC if both drivers are top of the field, minimizes the damage from when one driver inevitably DNF's or has a shit weekend.

#1719 Kraze

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 13:00

it has been by far his best since his return and he has only become worse.


interestingly, another driver (who Ferrari decided to fire) also suffered a similar syndrome. But right now, he's hogging all the limelight with his impressive return.


Indeed, but does that mean you must sacrifice the drivers championship as well?


please remind me how many championship Ferrari won in 2010(or since then)?




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#1720 RealRacing

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 13:01

Yes. But by that time Alonso had already stamped his authority. You can't have a driver who performs once every 3 races taking points off a driver who is more likely to challenge on a consistent basis. It makes no sense!

The goal of the team is to win not one but "both" championships, and this is not going to happen when the slower driver takes points off the other whenever he is the mood.


And you are not going to have a motivated driver, i.e. capable of scoring good points for the WCC, if you don't allow him to fight with his teammate for the WDC. IMO Ferrari are being unrealistic, either they continue with their clear No. 1, No. 2 policy, which gives them an advantage for the WDC, or they let them race for a better shot at the WCC. To expect that a driver who is told to be a No. 2 performs at his best level is unrealistic.

#1721 Kraze

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 13:03

With a slow driver the team has no chance of WCC. That's where they get money from and it's the target they aim for. You have a better chance of WCC if both drivers are top of the field, minimizes the damage from when one driver inevitably DNF's or has a shit weekend.


they just swapped the positions during the race and the WCC points would have remained the same even if they didnt.

Edited by Kraze, 10 August 2012 - 13:04.


#1722 Ferrari2183

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 13:27

interestingly, another driver (who Ferrari decided to fire) also suffered a similar syndrome. But right now, he's hogging all the limelight with his impressive return.




please remind me how many championship Ferrari won in 2010(or since then)?

You are just being obtuse now. Alonso would have been 7 points worse off had they not done the swap. The team gave him a better chance at winning the championship.

And you are not going to have a motivated driver, i.e. capable of scoring good points for the WCC, if you don't allow him to fight with his teammate for the WDC. IMO Ferrari are being unrealistic, either they continue with their clear No. 1, No. 2 policy, which gives them an advantage for the WDC, or they let them race for a better shot at the WCC. To expect that a driver who is told to be a No. 2 performs at his best level is unrealistic.

It has been done before. If motivation is the deciding factor then it is not Ferrari with the problem but rather Massa. He can't have poor results and the odd good one while still expecting the team to keep allowing him to hinder his teammate in order to keep him motivated. Motivation in this game should be a given. He is not driving for HRT.

It is the same situation McLaren are in now and Button's insistance on equal treatment until he is mathematically out of contention might just end up biting the team in the ass. If I were Hamilton I would be putting the pressure on the team already.

#1723 Jovanotti

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 13:39

Indeed, but does that mean you must sacrifice the drivers championship as well?

No, but it means that No.1 unevitably will be beaten by No.2 occasionally - which is absolutely fine from the team perspective. Whether Ferrari/Alonso are ready/willing to allow this situation to happen is a different question, but imho it'd be the best for everyone involved at Ferrari.

#1724 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 13:44

Reminder;

Will Massa finish the season with Ferrari? Replacements?

The merits (or otherwise) of team leaders, #1 drivers etc can be discussed in the many other threads dedicated to those matters.

#1725 kosmos

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 13:53

To expect that a driver who is told to be a No. 2 performs at his best level is unrealistic.


I guess we should expect from Webber to perform at Massas level too. The only difference is that the team is supporting Massa and giving opportunities that probably he doesn't deserve at this point. He started 2011 and 2012 with a clean slate and he has done nothing, his performance is so poor that the number 2 excuses is no longer applicable.


#1726 zottzell

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 14:57

Any driver who values his career would shudder to think about moving to Ferrari after seeing how Ferrari "broke" Massa.

Ferrari's only choices are drivers who drive for backmarkers and I really doubt they are going to do a better job than Massa.


Massa's getting payed €10m, I recon that would be an incentive for a lot of aspiring drivers even if they would just get a second driver position.
Even if Massa's replacement would be required to relinquish the spot to Alonso in every race, they would still help bring home the WCC to Ferrari and thereby cementing a spot in the Formula 1 circus. Not to mention that there's always the odd chance they could match or even out drive Alonso and maybe put themself in the position to replace him in a couple of years.

I think Ferrari should give Massa a couple more chances and if he doesn't improve they should try to replace him before the end of the season if they got an replacement lined up.

Edited by zottzell, 10 August 2012 - 14:59.


#1727 rossbrawn

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 15:02

Some food for thought: Massa qualified just over half a tenth slower than Alonso at Hungary. Compare that to the start of the year.

#1728 Wander

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 15:08

Some food for thought: Massa qualified just over half a tenth slower than Alonso at Hungary. Compare that to the start of the year.


Hooray, if only he beat Alonso in a qualifying session or two, we could say that he's back to just 2011 levels of suck.

#1729 Cool Beans

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 17:25

Some food for thought: Massa qualified just over half a tenth slower than Alonso at Hungary. Compare that to the start of the year.

That's interesting. How long should Ferrari keep bleeding money to facilitate Massa's self discovery mission? Ferrari is paying 20-30 million a year in salary and lost bonuses to have Felipe try and find himself again at their wheel.

If they had a driver who would have scored a meager 82 points instead of the 25 Felipe's gathered against Alonso's 164 they would be leading the WCC. That would mean a fat slice from the 700 million dollar prize money vs their current 4th place.

Sacking him and paying the extra 4 million for a decent driver would be the most financially sound thing to do.

#1730 dau

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 18:40

Either you believe all the self hyping PR or you have a bad memory.
His days at Sauber were awful.[...]

No, he's right. Massa was thought of as fast and aggressive, but also inconsistent and crash-prone. He was also not far off Heidfeld in his rookie season - i know some people don't rate Nick, but iirc you're not one of them. Far from "awful" in any case.

#1731 rossbrawn

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 18:49

Hooray, if only he beat Alonso in a qualifying session or two, we could say that he's back to just 2011 levels of suck.


I don't understand posts such as these: Massa's had good pace for quite a few races now; circumstances just haven't fall into place for him, one way or another.

Massa had his own problems with the car at the start of the year, which he admitted. However, at Monaco he found a good setup which has lead to an up-turn in form.

That's interesting. How long should Ferrari keep bleeding money to facilitate Massa's self discovery mission? Ferrari is paying 20-30 million a year in salary and lost bonuses to have Felipe try and find himself again at their wheel.

If they had a driver who would have scored a meager 82 points instead of the 25 Felipe's gathered against Alonso's 164 they would be leading the WCC. That would mean a fat slice from the 700 million dollar prize money vs their current 4th place.

Sacking him and paying the extra 4 million for a decent driver would be the most financially sound thing to do.


One could argue Ferrari are to some extent, partially responsible for Massa's poor form. However I do agree that, Massa shouldn't take home the same pay-packet he is at the moment.

Now that Ferrari have solved his issues with the car, he should have the final half of this season to prove he still has it; albeit to play second fiddle. If not, it might be time to bow-out.

#1732 george1981

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 19:33

One thing that has just occured to me was that I've always rated Alonso to be a much better racer than qualifer, the opposite of Vettel who's always seemed to be a better qualifer than racer IMO. I would have said Massa is also more of a qualifier than a racer, he's done well when he's been able to lead from the front but has struggled in the pack.
With that in mind the difference in qualifying between Alonso and Massa is remarkable.

Edited by george1981, 10 August 2012 - 19:33.


#1733 RealRacing

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:29

It has been done before. If motivation is the deciding factor then it is not Ferrari with the problem but rather Massa. He can't have poor results and the odd good one while still expecting the team to keep allowing him to hinder his teammate in order to keep him motivated. Motivation in this game should be a given. He is not driving for HRT.

It is the same situation McLaren are in now and Button's insistance on equal treatment until he is mathematically out of contention might just end up biting the team in the ass. If I were Hamilton I would be putting the pressure on the team already.


My point is that Ferrari should ask themselves what is more important to them, the WCC or the WDC. The way they function now, the WDC is easier, but, IMO even with a driver contributing more than Massa is now, the WCC is more elusive. I believe if you let both drivers fight it out until the latest possible point in the championship, the competition itself will do wonders to bring in better WCC points than if one of the drivers only has a supporting role from early on. Motivation in this sport is given by more than money and telling a driver that he's No. 2 will, IMO, have a very counterproductive effect in terms of commitment to the team.

#1734 Konsta

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:04

My point is that Ferrari should ask themselves what is more important to them, the WCC or the WDC. The way they function now, the WDC is easier, but, IMO even with a driver contributing more than Massa is now, the WCC is more elusive. I believe if you let both drivers fight it out until the latest possible point in the championship, the competition itself will do wonders to bring in better WCC points than if one of the drivers only has a supporting role from early on. Motivation in this sport is given by more than money and telling a driver that he's No. 2 will, IMO, have a very counterproductive effect in terms of commitment to the team.


I politely disagree. For a WDC chase to be "easy", one has to have a team-mate who is capable of stealing points from one's closest rivals. That differs actually quite little from what is required in a successful WCC campaign. With Flippy Ferrari are losing both since his journey of finding his inner-racer has amounted to nothing. Stupid Ferrari!!

#1735 MDL

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 16:58

Personally, I think Schumi should go back to Ferrari, dump Mercedes and give it a go with Freddie...

What's he got to lose? IF Alonso beats him down, well he'll know it's time to go spend his money.

Massa is a lost cause. Shame, so close to winning a WDC.


#1736 puxanando

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 17:06

Personally, I think Schumi should go back to Ferrari, dump Mercedes and give it a go with Freddie...


No good idea! Schumi wouldn't feel good seing that Fernando now is the teamleader there.....
Perez beside the spaniard would be a lot better......


#1737 rossbrawn

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 17:09

Personally, I think Schumi should go back to Ferrari, dump Mercedes and give it a go with Freddie...


As much as I'd like to see that happen, it won't; the turmoil such a decision would cause, would be unfathomable.

Edited by rossbrawn, 12 August 2012 - 17:10.


#1738 Lennat

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 17:35

A Schumi/Ferrari reunion would be AMAZING...

He won't stand a chance against Alonso, but he might win a race or two. :)

#1739 metz

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 21:35

No, he's right. Massa was thought of as fast and aggressive, but also inconsistent and crash-prone. He was also not far off Heidfeld in his rookie season - i know some people don't rate Nick, but iirc you're not one of them. Far from "awful" in any case.

Sorry, but Massa was awful in his first year.
Have a look at a sample.

If half the points is not far off, :well:
He was a rookie with many rookie mistakes.
Fast , maybe in qualifying but hardly the race
Aggressive, yes, and ended in tears.
His entire career he was never good in traffic.
Even in his best year, 2008, he needed to be up front to make anything happen.
I have never, ever, heard any other team express an interest in him.
Nevertheless, he is a nice person, and I find his current situation a bit sad.

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#1740 BruisedLee

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 00:16

He had one good year with a very good car in a season where aero and lasting tires made almost impossible to overtake. Qualifying was 80% of the race. That he was able to fight for the championship until the last race is testament of what was wrong with F1 during these years.

#1741 AlexS

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:42

I wonder if in F1 there have been such difficulty to adapt in past.
This year we have Button, Schumacher only now seem to do something, Massa is what we know already ... Another example example in MotoGP, Rossi didn't suddenly started to be a crap rider. So there must be something fundamental in way a car or motorcycle behaves that makes some drivers unable to extract the maximum.

#1742 kraduk

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:33

It would be a bit crazy, but Buemi has just announced he has a new drive for next season. However its not with a back marker he claims, so assuming hes counting Caterham as a back marker where could that possibly be? Macca No, Red Bull obviously not, Mercedes doubt it as they would more likely take Di Resta or the Hulk 1st if schumi was retiring, Sauber doesnt seem likely, nor Lotus they seem to happy with their drivers, STR would be to big a u turn.

THat leaves williams or ferrari. He is still friendly with Dieter from what i have read so maybe he is willing to pay for him to goto williams which is a possibility. However could he be going to Ferrari as a stop gap until they can either get Vettel, or Perez is ready as he seems hesitant at present? I'm not saying he is as good as Massa but you could argue hes not significantly worse and maybe the team are just after a change to freshen things up. He would also fit in as a real number 2 quite well.

Edited by kraduk, 14 August 2012 - 08:35.


#1743 puxanando

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:45

And Barrichellos future is unknown till yet. Ferrari speaking of an experienced pilot...........

#1744 Buttoneer

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:39

Off topic discussion about Ferrari #1 status has been moved to its own thread;

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=172684

This thread is for discussion of whether Massa will leave and who should replace him.

#1745 Sakae

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 19:04

Hmm this is a surprise (at least for me); haven't seen this coming at all even as much as an outside consideration.

http://www.telegraph...to-Ferrari.html




#1746 dutra

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:11

Massa is a good #2... driver...

Edited by dutra, 18 August 2012 - 09:15.


#1747 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:14

Hmm this is a surprise (at least for me); haven't seen this coming at all even as much as an outside consideration.

http://www.telegraph...to-Ferrari.html


Old news

#1748 Sakae

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:45

Old news

I can't see that relationship working anyway, despite that Kimi is perceived to be a cool individual.

#1749 puxanando

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:49

Massa is a good #2... driver...


No he isn't! Look the constructure-points of ferrari!


#1750 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:53

Massa is a good #2... driver...


Not this season. He is a pretty worthless #2 driver this season not to mention #1 driver.

But he will finish the season with Ferrari to go back to the original thread question.