Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

Vettel vs Webber 2012


  • Please log in to reply
2134 replies to this topic

#1 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,312 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:31

Couldn't find this year's thread, so here it is! I will not participate as much as the last few years, but may pop in to update scores. I'm very interested to hear people's thoughts on how they will go this season.

Advertisement

#2 orndorf

orndorf
  • Member

  • 379 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:40

1-0 Webber.

Is it true that vettel had KERS and Webber didnt?Its worth atleast .5 around Albert Park.

#3 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,312 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:41

So .. at his home event, Webber pips Vettel by 0.017 and breaks a 9 loss streak in the process.

Qualifying
Webber: 1
Vettel: 0

Edited by slideways, 17 March 2012 - 07:44.


#4 Meanbeakin

Meanbeakin
  • Member

  • 539 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:56

Weirdly enough I was actually happy with Mark's qualifying session, especially as it became apparent Red Bull weren't going to snatch pole. Was a good lap from him considering it was his only one.

Seb hasn't looked comfortable all weekend, I think it's too early to pass judgement on how his season will turn out though. It looks at the least like though the 2011 dominance is gone for 2012.

#5 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:59



Maintain the gap Seb

#6 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,915 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:00

Webber has looked better than Seb all weekend. Could be home race, could be something else, but Seb wasn't able to call on that 'something' he had all last year in Q3... could it have been the EBD?

#7 Brother Fox

Brother Fox
  • Member

  • 5,373 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:04

As above, can someone confirm/deny that Vettel had KERS and Webber didn't?
Not trying to write off Seb after one Qualy, but that's a mega performance by Webber if so

#8 orndorf

orndorf
  • Member

  • 379 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:07

He has gone from being a second quicker at this track last year, to slightly slower this year even though he had KERS and Webber didn't.Strange.

Edited by orndorf, 17 March 2012 - 08:08.


#9 goingthedistance

goingthedistance
  • Member

  • 2,553 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:11

Webber has looked better than Seb all weekend. Could be home race, could be something else, but Seb wasn't able to call on that 'something' he had all last year in Q3... could it have been the EBD?


I was always of the belief that Vettel had a certain, better engine mode that he could call on in quali, because he tended to get more out of the off-throttle EBD than Mark. With those engine modes now banned, well it was interesting wasn't it?

And yes it has been confirmed by Mark on Australian TV that he had no KERS. Vettel just made a mistake apparently. Probably trying too hard to make up time the RBR just didn't have in it.

Edited by goingthedistance, 17 March 2012 - 08:13.


#10 icecream

icecream
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:13

I was always of the belief that Vettel had a certain, better engine mode that he could call on in quali, because he tended to get more out of the off-throttle EBD than Mark. With those engine modes now banned, well it was interesting wasn't it?

And yes it has been confirmed by Mark on Australian TV that he had no KERS. Vettel just made a mistake apparently. Probably trying to hard to make up time the RBR just didn't have in it.



not sure. webber said no KERS in q2, but didn't hear him explicitly say no KERS in q3.

given the result, my guess is they both had it or both didn't.

#11 KateLM

KateLM
  • Member

  • 2,342 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:16

As above, can someone confirm/deny that Vettel had KERS and Webber didn't?
Not trying to write off Seb after one Qualy, but that's a mega performance by Webber if so

Can't confirm it but I think he did - Sky did an interview with him and he didn't say anything, even though he was specifically asked if he wasn't happy with the car. Hill and Brundle both said that Webber didn't have it but nothing about Seb.

#12 goingthedistance

goingthedistance
  • Member

  • 2,553 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:16

No I think Lauda has had it confirmed from RBR that Vettel did have it but made a mistake in Q3 (as Seb said himself) and Mark didn't have it. It's obvious from the sector times if you look, Mark is dropping all his times in the first two sectors.

#13 Brother Fox

Brother Fox
  • Member

  • 5,373 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:18

Maybe I took it wrong or misheard it but it sounded like he confirmed it wasn't in Q2 but didn't specify if it was or wasn't in Q3

Mind you my son was having a sugar high induced meltdown at the time so it may not have got it straight

#14 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,336 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:22

Scruffiest qualy for Seb in ages but credit to Webber, especially if its true about the KERS.
But there's 2 important results to salvage tomorrow, gotta stay close to Mclaren whilst they have the edge and then make it count if it turns around.

#15 orndorf

orndorf
  • Member

  • 379 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:22

Yea looking at the sector times Webber had no KERS.

Its bizarre that after 2 years they still cant get it right.

#16 goingthedistance

goingthedistance
  • Member

  • 2,553 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:36

Scruffiest qualy for Seb in ages but credit to Webber, especially if its true about the KERS.
But there's 2 important results to salvage tomorrow, gotta stay close to Mclaren whilst they have the edge and then make it count if it turns around.


Watching the onboards Seb looked to be struggling more than Mark, though I think it was more a case of Seb trying too hard and not letting the car come to him. Mark looked calmer.

#17 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,336 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:56

Watching the onboards Seb looked to be struggling more than Mark, though I think it was more a case of Seb trying too hard and not letting the car come to him. Mark looked calmer.


from the limited onboards of Seb in Q3, last sector of his first run was scruffy, then he said he made an error early on in his 2nd lap

#18 goingthedistance

goingthedistance
  • Member

  • 2,553 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:59

from the limited onboards of Seb in Q3, last sector of his first run was scruffy, then he said he made an error early on in his 2nd lap


Yeah, I was talking about the session as a whole. I think Seb was really pushing the car, in Q1 he had quite a moment!

#19 ImDDAA

ImDDAA
  • Member

  • 3,226 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:00

Scruffiest qualy for Seb in ages but credit to Webber, especially if its true about the KERS.
But there's 2 important results to salvage tomorrow, gotta stay close to Mclaren whilst they have the edge and then make it count if it turns around.


I think the new regs with the lack of grip he's used to will be a big change for him, he's really developed his style over the past 2 years and now things have changed a bit. I still think Vettel is the analytical type of driver who will soon find out how to rectify any problems he may have but of course it's all conjecture at this point because we've only seen one qualifying session - race pace might be far better.

Advertisement

#20 gowebber

gowebber
  • Member

  • 431 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:17

Yep no KERS for Mark, Seriously RBR WTF!!!?? This has been going on for a year!! This is what pisses me off, the average punter and esp Webber bashers sometimes don't see these issues and just think Mark is driving like a bit of a muppet when really behind the scenes things like this are costing him dearly at times. This happened quite alot in the first few races for Mark last year. Cmon RBR ffs fix it!!

------------------------------------------------

Mark Webber, who qualified fifth: "We are aware where we need to improve and that's something which we will look at. I don't know what happened to Seb on his last lap, it looks like he made a mistake. I didn't have Kers either but I'm satisfied with the job I did in Q3. It was one run and not a bad lap. The pace to the front was not overly surprising. You take your hat off to people who have done a reasonable job."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/17396714


Edited by gowebber, 17 March 2012 - 09:23.


#21 orndorf

orndorf
  • Member

  • 379 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:22

Whatever mistake Vettel made it didnt cost him .5 of a second thats for sure.

Webber would of just about stuck it on pole with KERS.Such a shame.

#22 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,915 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:24

from the limited onboards of Seb in Q3, last sector of his first run was scruffy, then he said he made an error early on in his 2nd lap


Lots of his runs this weekend have been scruffy, so accounting the qualifying showing to a mistake isn't quite the full picture.

#23 Siperoth

Siperoth
  • Member

  • 321 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:34

Yep no KERS for Mark, Seriously RBR WTF!!!?? This has been going on for a year!! This is what pisses me off, the average punter and esp Webber bashers sometimes don't see these issues and just think Mark is driving like a bit of a muppet when really behind the scenes things like this are costing him dearly at times. This happened quite alot in the first few races for Mark last year. Cmon RBR ffs fix it!!


Is like they are doing it on purpose just for the first races so Seb can take an advantage. Irritating at least. But it seems that when the car isn't a clear frond runner Seb can't do it as easy.
I wonder if the exhaust stuff benefited his driving too.

#24 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,336 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:37

I think the new regs with the lack of grip he's used to will be a big change for him, he's really developed his style over the past 2 years and now things have changed a bit. I still think Vettel is the analytical type of driver who will soon find out how to rectify any problems he may have but of course it's all conjecture at this point because we've only seen one qualifying session - race pace might be far better.


well also he is a driver who builds up and builds up for the lap in qualy, but with the rain yesterday it disrupted his preferred routine, like korea 2011. hopefully they can keep the tyres well and hoping the lotus and mercs are hard on their tyres.

#25 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,336 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:40

Whatever mistake Vettel made it didnt cost him .5 of a second thats for sure.

Webber would of just about stuck it on pole with KERS.Such a shame.


not sure about that but quite possibly 3rd, and right in the thick of it. makes a big difference if he were to make a good start

#26 george1981

george1981
  • Member

  • 848 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:40

I was always of the belief that Vettel had a certain, better engine mode that he could call on in quali, because he tended to get more out of the off-throttle EBD than Mark. With those engine modes now banned, well it was interesting wasn't it?

And yes it has been confirmed by Mark on Australian TV that he had no KERS. Vettel just made a mistake apparently. Probably trying too hard to make up time the RBR just didn't have in it.


From my recollection there was discussion back in early 2010 Redbull had developed the blown diffuser but hadn't changed the engine mapping so the performance from the diffuser wasn't always there. Mark Webber was meant to have a different throttle technique which could get more advantage out of the EBD than Vettel could. After a few races Redbull working with Renault managed to change the engine mapping so that the exhaust was nearly always feeding the diffuser which was when Vettel's performances over Webber began to improve.
Fast forward to this year, although EBD's are banned and the exhausts aren't meant to have much of an affect on aero the teams especially Redbull are still using the exhaust gas.
However the engine maps are banned so whatever performance gain is coming from the exhaust now isn't constant. It could be that Mark Webber's throttle technique is coming into affect here and he can get more from the exhaust than Vettel.

Of course the Mark Webber throttle technique story from 2010 could be BS. Mark Webber's form dropped midway through the year and some suspected Redbull were deliberately sabotaging him so he didn't outshine Vettel.

#27 FPV GTHO

FPV GTHO
  • Member

  • 850 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:42

Those saying 0.5s for KERS need to take into account RBR's KERS is rumoured to only be ~60kw, not the permissable 80kw.

#28 FPV GTHO

FPV GTHO
  • Member

  • 850 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:49

hopefully they can keep the tyres well and hoping the lotus and mercs are hard on their tyres.


It could happen, even if we simply see McLaren and Red Bull go with 2 stops and Mercedes and Lotus go with 3. I personally hope Red Bull dont try something like a split strategy. I dont really see the need, but they might come out with some line about maximising their chances or keeping the drivers apart through the race.

#29 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,612 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:51

Couldn't find this year's thread, so here it is! I will not participate as much as the last few years, but may pop in to update scores. I'm very interested to hear people's thoughts on how they will go this season.


Well I think after last year, fans of both drivers couldn't be bothered to start it :lol:

Anyway, despite Webber being 5th on the grid - what is it about that number and Webber at Albert Park? - if he didn't have KERS as well then he's done a pretty good job, and should be happy. Certainly Seb is struggling with the reduced grip on the RB8, and is probably just overdriving it a bit atm - I imagine that he will adjust his driving a bit to suit given a bit more time with the car - but it is looking like the gap between the two has closed a bit from last year. I think RBR has a bit of a fight on their hands this year, and it will be interesting to see how the developments go on the car and how they suit each driver...

#30 goingthedistance

goingthedistance
  • Member

  • 2,553 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:55

Renault: "Apologies to Mark who suffered from a KERS issue during qualifying; he could have been P2 or P3, so it’s a big shame."

#31 orndorf

orndorf
  • Member

  • 379 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:59

Atleast RBR are on the pace if u take KERS in to consideration.Race tomorrow will be fascinating.

#32 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,615 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:05

Great lap by Mark. I knew while watching it, that it was a good one but now with knowing that KERS was lacking, just makes it even better. Very neat and tidy like the Webber of old (when he'd do well).. and also this is during a time when others seem to be sliding around more.

#33 LoudHoward

LoudHoward
  • Member

  • 1,318 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:11

Hopefully they can get Marks KERS sorted for tomorrow - he did a good lap, it would've been nice to see him 4-odd tenths better off that's for sure.

Obviously the dream was that the rule changes would steer the intra-team battle towards Mark, as well as the additional rear mechanical grip aiding his style, one qually doesn't make a summer but it's a positive start.

#34 sanjiro

sanjiro
  • Member

  • 1,895 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:13

nice drive by MW, good to see him happier with the car then 2011.
I fully expect to see him drop 4 places at the start and that's assuming he is NOT involved in any first/second corner shenanigans.
Clearly RBR are on the back foot atm, it will be interesting to see if AN can pull a rabbit out of the hat during the season (not something he has often been able to do).

SV kicking @#$% up hill looking for that extra pace all weekend.
It will be interesting to see if he can adapt to this over the year (MW couldn't last year )

#35 LiJu914

LiJu914
  • Member

  • 1,776 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:16

Great effort by Mark. I think it will also boost his morale to be in front in the 1st Quali-session of the year.

#36 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,703 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:31

Renault: "Apologies to Mark who suffered from a KERS issue during qualifying; he could have been P2 or P3, so it’s a big shame."


The Renault KERS is worth that much..... I don't think so

#37 DILLIGAF

DILLIGAF
  • Member

  • 3,209 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:34

Yep no KERS for Mark, Seriously RBR WTF!!!?? This has been going on for a year!! This is what pisses me off, the average punter and esp Webber bashers sometimes don't see these issues and just think Mark is driving like a bit of a muppet when really behind the scenes things like this are costing him dearly at times. This happened quite alot in the first few races for Mark last year. Cmon RBR ffs fix it!!

------------------------------------------------

Mark Webber, who qualified fifth: "We are aware where we need to improve and that's something which we will look at. I don't know what happened to Seb on his last lap, it looks like he made a mistake. I didn't have Kers either but I'm satisfied with the job I did in Q3. It was one run and not a bad lap. The pace to the front was not overly surprising. You take your hat off to people who have done a reasonable job."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/17396714


:up: Totally agree about RBR's KERS issues, they should have had it sorted by now ffs!! May well have cost Mark a couple of grid places today. ):

#38 karne

karne
  • Member

  • 2,040 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:38

I fully expect to see him drop 4 places at the start and that's assuming he is NOT involved in any first/second corner shenanigans.


That would depend. Are they going to let him use the preferred clutch/start settings this year? Remember, once he got the 2010 one into last year's car, his starts improved out of sight.

Superb lap. I knew watching it that it was a great lap - he looked very smooth and assured. Vettel looked like he was panicking a lot.

#39 silverstonegeneral

silverstonegeneral
  • Member

  • 85 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:54

redbulls kers is only worth a few tenths,and vettel is struggling because his car isnt glued to the track like it was last season,which means he's having to work harder to keep it on track.
and the mistakes are from pushing too hard,but thats what happens,ask lewis.
mark can handle the new redbull better than vettel at the moment,and i think mark likes these tyres more than the tyres of last season which he struggled with.
mark should be very strong competition for vettel this season if he's allowed to be.

Advertisement

#40 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 March 2012 - 13:00

Well I think after last year, fans of both drivers couldn't be bothered to start it :lol:

Anyway, despite Webber being 5th on the grid - what is it about that number and Webber at Albert Park? - if he didn't have KERS as well then he's done a pretty good job, and should be happy. Certainly Seb is struggling with the reduced grip on the RB8, and is probably just overdriving it a bit atm - I imagine that he will adjust his driving a bit to suit given a bit more time with the car - but it is looking like the gap between the two has closed a bit from last year. I think RBR has a bit of a fight on their hands this year, and it will be interesting to see how the developments go on the car and how they suit each driver...


I agree with that. It is a bit of a shame for Mark that he is further away from the podium then in the last years, and that he won't have many chances left to get that podium here. He did a good job without the KERS while Seb struggled for once.

Edited by H2H, 17 March 2012 - 13:01.


#41 Callahan

Callahan
  • Member

  • 594 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 18 March 2012 - 00:27

I know it's only round 1 but, if the body language and comments from both drivers is any indication, Mark is pretty happy with were he's at the moment and is giving off positive vibes every time he is interviewed. Seb seems to be fairly reserved and definitely doesn't like the car in it's present configuration. Will be interesting to what happens in Malaysia at a more normal circuit but here at least, Mark seems in a good place.

#42 LukeM

LukeM
  • Member

  • 966 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 18 March 2012 - 00:58

its a shame Mark is now in the best state of mind of his life and driving wonderfully and they do not have the best car. Timing is everything :) What I like is that alot more teams are in the mix now, and I do believe from the rumors and also from FP2 laps that Red bull will be MUCH better in race trim and potentially may be able to do 1 stop less than Mercedes at least. Gonna be fun to watch :D

#43 Melbourne Park

Melbourne Park
  • Member

  • 19,237 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 18 March 2012 - 01:05

The cars have an oversteering characteristic this so far, due to less rear grip. Hence the change in various driver relativities ie Button v Hamilton (although who knows about tyre wear but Button doesn't like loose rear ends) and MSC looks better too IMO. Get the rear grip back, and SV will be in front again of MW. Although MW has lost a few kg this year - he has dangerously (IMO) low levels of fat now, and he looks gaunt in his face and appears quite anorexic. Still, the weight he reckons makes a difference. I think too they have further worked on getting Webber into the cockpit better. The talk about starting tech between seasons has been on - we'll see if it makes a difference or not. I reckon it will. Someone always goes off at the first corner, I am not sure who starts on the right side this year?

Anyhows, an iPhone post and that's it for today. The weather is great and quite balmy. The track might be somewhat cool come mid race. I suspect the RBRs will go well with their tyres too ... I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 18 March 2012 - 01:07.


#44 flyer121

flyer121
  • Member

  • 4,570 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 18 March 2012 - 01:09

Yep no KERS for Mark, Seriously RBR WTF!!!?? This has been going on for a year!! This is what pisses me off, the average punter and esp Webber bashers sometimes don't see these issues and just think Mark is driving like a bit of a muppet when really behind the scenes things like this are costing him dearly at times. This happened quite alot in the first few races for Mark last year. Cmon RBR ffs fix it!!

------------------------------------------------

Mark Webber, who qualified fifth: "We are aware where we need to improve and that's something which we will look at. I don't know what happened to Seb on his last lap, it looks like he made a mistake. I didn't have Kers either but I'm satisfied with the job I did in Q3. It was one run and not a bad lap. The pace to the front was not overly surprising. You take your hat off to people who have done a reasonable job."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/17396714



Have to agree... How hard can it be?



#45 FloorIt

FloorIt
  • Member

  • 51 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 18 March 2012 - 01:18

i really hope mark could score more points than seb and be ahead of him in championship table since abu dhabi 2010 ,
and this kers issue is pathetic seriously ? after all these testing and 3 practice sessions and 2 qualifying sessions , the kers didn't work ? its either a very very bad luck for mark or red bull doesnt want him ahead of seb

#46 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,312 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:13

its a shame Mark is now in the best state of mind of his life and driving wonderfully and they do not have the best car. Timing is everything :)


I think that's a bit of a reach to say after a few FP laps and one quali session. Let's wait and see how the race and next few events unfold.

#47 LukeM

LukeM
  • Member

  • 966 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:21

or red bull doesnt want him ahead of seb




#48 FPV GTHO

FPV GTHO
  • Member

  • 850 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:53

Maybe Webber's simply in a better state of mind because Vettel appears to be unhappy and he can sense an opportunity to get points on him? Maybe just the local atmosphere?

It does seem though since the RB6 and the EBD engine maps, whenever they make adjustments and it favours Vettel that Webber seems to lose a bit, and vice versa when Vettel struggles with an update.

#49 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,312 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:45

Vettel takes the first race point with a strong drive to climb 4 positions and split the McLarens. Disappointing race from Webber in front of his home crowd, again. At least Schumi's retirement avoided him finishing fifth again!

Edit: found this applet from the Button Hamilton thread
Posted Image

Edited by slideways, 18 March 2012 - 08:48.


#50 goingthedistance

goingthedistance
  • Member

  • 2,553 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:50

Finishing 1.9 seconds behind Vettel is not a disaster surely. I thought it was a good recovery. Didn't abuse the tyres which was very reassuring, had arguably better pace than Vettel in the times he was in clean air.