2134 replies to this topic

[abc]

And what about Monaco? I thought Vettel had much better race pace there.

[apoka]

I think they were on different strategies in Monaco, but Vettel could almost have won it or finished P2 starting from P6. Even at the end, the gap was tiny but still 3 positions between him and Mark. Well it's Monaco, so there aren't many opportunities to do something, especially in a one stop race.

[sailor]

Now it does.

LOL

But I actually quite agree that Vettel struggled initially with the car.

But thats testament to his ability to bounce back - makes his 2012 title even more worthy and sweeter.
Same in 2010. After some crashes - put his head down and Bam - title is served

Look at Button - 2012 had car troubles and never recovered.
Look at Lewis - had a few bad crashes in 2011 and let go of the season
Look at Webber - 2010 was all set for title and let his head drop when he couldnt match Seb 's pace

Only Alonso matches Seb in this regard. Resolve and Determination whatever the situation.
Seb edges him though

Edited by sailor, 04 December 2012 - 09:50.

[mnmracer]

And even China is questionable as Webber only passed Vettel on the penultimate lap. It wasn't as though Webber was clearly faster in the race, and in fact, he only finished 2.5 seconds ahead despite being 4 spots ahead on the grid.

And what about Monaco? I thought Vettel had much better race pace there.

Then we just get into a debate about questionable races, which is just unnecessary.
Massa was (pretty clearly) faster than Alonso in 3 races.
Webber was (pretty clearly) faster than Vettel in 3 races.

There, equal.
No "Alonso got everything out of that Ferrari while Vettel slouched" BS.

[choyothe]

I didn't want to drift off topic in the Top 5 Drivers thread so I moved it here.

If you want to go by result;
Malaysia
China
Monaco
Europe
Great Britain
Italy
Brazil

Go by pure pace;
Malaysia
China
Spain
Monaco
Great Britain

That doesn't count like 3 to me.

Even in China and maybe Monaco Webber beat Vettel overall because of him qualifying better, there is no indication of superior pace.

[Kelateboy]

I think they were on different strategies in Monaco, but Vettel could almost have won it or finished P2 starting from P6. Even at the end, the gap was tiny but still 3 positions between him and Mark. Well it's Monaco, so there aren't many opportunities to do something, especially in a one stop race.

They were separated by a mere 1.3s. I remember the race vividly as the 3 guys behind Webber were obviously faster than him, but Monaco being Monaco, there was no way through.

[Dalton007]

It does appear that the biggest difference between the two is that webber chews his tyres much faster, a problem he has had all his career.

I don't think Webber's good enough to win a championship in a team where Vettel is just that bit quicker over a season.

[MortenF1]

I haven't got a list ready for you, Apoka, but I'll see if the urge and initiative comes to me later.
I know Webber was quicker, and/or a match for Vettel's race pace in several races.

[Kelateboy]

I haven't got a list ready for you, Apoka, but I'll see if the urge and initiative comes to me later.
I know Webber was quicker, and/or a match for Vettel's race pace in several races.

There were 20 races this year, so I am sure you would be able to find a few races where Webber was faster than Vettel. This should not be too difficult a task for anyone.

But the last 7 races starting with Singapore, my memories told me that Sebastian had the edge in all those - winnning four on the trot, a 3rd in Abu Dhabi, a 2nd in Austin and a 6th in Brazil in a banged up car.

[apoka]

I haven't got a list ready for you, Apoka, but I'll see if the urge and initiative comes to me later.
I know Webber was quicker, and/or a match for Vettel's race pace in several races.

OK. I went through some races and my conclusion was pretty much that in races he lost points to Webber the problem - from Vettel's point of view - was qualy pace (which took him some races to recover with more confidence in the car and better rear stability). I didn't check all races, but from races both finished Webber was ahead 4 times and Vettel 11 times. I focused on those 4 races (China, Monaco, GB, Brazil).

Head to head live timing links:
http://en.mclarenf-1...=3#.UL5ChtGoI-o
http://en.mclarenf-1...=3#.UL5CbNGoI-o
http://en.mclarenf-1...=3#.UL5CcdGoI-o
http://en.mclarenf-1...=3#.UL5CdtGoI-o

In China, Webber qualified better and they were on different strategies in the race. In Monaco, Webber also qualified better, but Vettel was close to P2 (maybe even P1) and at least I would say Webber was not faster in terms of race pace (3 cars behind him seemed faster, but it's Monaco after all). In GB, Webber qualified ahead and kept the gap roughly constant. I think that was his best race. In Brazil, Webber qualified ahead and finished ahead, but I'd say Vettel was still much better on race pace.

Of course, I may have missed races in which Webber finished behind Vettel, but may have had better race pace, but I can't recall any from memory. I didn't check all races as that would take quite some time (live timing does not show everything - you also need to remember details on the race). Maybe someone can do a comprehensive analysis, but so far my conclusion is that Vettel was "on it" in terms of race pace all season, but didn't really have the confidence and right setup to shine in qualy initially.

Edited by apoka, 04 December 2012 - 21:24.

[MortenF1]

...haven't gone through any races myself, but thinking back the impression is that Webber has indeed been on Vettel's toes more than just China, GB and Monaco.

[Kelateboy]

OK. I went through some races and my conclusion was pretty much that in races he lost points to Webber the problem - from Vettel's point of view - was qualy pace (which took him some races to recover with more confidence in the car and better rear stability). I didn't check all races, but from races both finished Webber was ahead 4 times and Vettel 11 times. I focused on those 4 races (China, Monaco, GB, Brazil).

In China, Webber qualified better and they were on different strategies in the race. In Monaco, Webber also qualified better, but Vettel was close to P2 (maybe even P1) and at least I would say Webber was not faster in terms of race pace (3 cars behind him seemed faster, but it's Monaco after all). In GB, Webber qualified ahead and kept the gap roughly constant. I think that was his best race. In Brazil, Webber qualified ahead and finished ahead, but I'd say Vettel was still much better on race pace.

I will give Brazil to Sebastian.

After the safety car, the main differences between Sebastian and Mark were the pitstops. Sebastian had an extra pitstop, and a very lengthy 4th pitstop, whereas Webber had a trouble free pit stop timed at 21.006s. Sebastian 3rd and 4th pitstops were 21.256s and 28.932s - Sebastian lost 29.182s on the post safety-car pitstops alone. Given that Sebastian was only trailing Webber by 16.398s before the 2nd safety car period (Lap 69), I am of the opinion that he had a better race pace in that GP despite struggling on the primes when the track was drying out.

[eronrules]

Briatore joins Montezemolo in criticising Schumacher

Italian Briatore, who was team boss when Schumacher won his first two titles with Benetton in the mid-90s, agrees with his fellow Italian Montezemolo.

“The way he (Schumacher) behaved in Brazil was not good. His preference was that Red Bull beats Ferrari,” said Briatore.

“The only one who helped Ferrari was Webber,” he added, referring to Vettel’s Red Bull teammate Mark Webber, who is in Briatore’s management stable.

i don't know how a manager can promote his driver this way, webber must be really desperate to get fired from RB and join ferrari ... but there you go folks

Edited by eronrules, 06 December 2012 - 11:58.

[MortenF1]

Omg.

[Kelateboy]

Briatore joins Montezemolo in criticising Schumacher

i don't know how a manager can promote his driver this way, webber must be really desperate to get fired from RB and join ferrari ... but there you go folks

I am sure looking back, Webber would have liked to do it a bit more subtlely and differently.

Luckily Sebastian went on to win the WDC. Otherwise, Webber's action could have come back and haunted him with the Red Bull's management.

[sailor]

I am sure looking back, Webber would have liked to do it a bit more subtlely and differently.

Luckily Sebastian went on to win the WDC. Otherwise, Webber's action could have come back and haunted him with the Red Bull's management.

Briatore is an idiot.

Even if he felt that Webber helped Alonso - he doesnt have to shout about it .

[gillesthegenius]

If true, this peice of info makes the taste of Seb's victory even more sweeter. Well done Seb. Way to go you wundakid.

[goldenboy]

If true, this peice of info makes the taste of Seb's victory even more sweeter. Well done Seb. Way to go you wundakid.

It's briatores opinion that webber didn't exactly do vet any massive favours not that webber had an arrangement with ferrari or he was trying to get a seat with them or anything.

[Alfisti]

Omg.

Mark did have an absolute shocker. Why he got himself in those situations is beyond me.

[Sakae]

This thread should die, like the genuine rivalry died. A few months ago.

Webber will not play supporting role | P. Elizalde

"I don't go there thinking I've got to be playing a team role as such. I'm there for myself,...

Briatore | GMM

...“The only one who helped Ferrari was Webber,” (In Brazil 2012)...

Has genuine rivalry actually ever existed?

[H2H]

Briatore is Briatore so I would touch anything he says only with the proverbial barge pole. In any case it is a bit of a mystery why he is still Marks manager, guess he plays his cards well. Overall his personal influence can not be good.

"I don't go there thinking I've got to be playing a team role as such. I'm there for myself, to get the best results possible and to do that I need to be part of the team

He certainly did not play much the team role as such in the last races. I prefer it that way, but of course it makes winning an WDC for the team sometimes quite a bit more difficult.

[MortenF1]

Mark did have an absolute shocker. Why he got himself in those situations is beyond me.

Only the start was questionable IMO.

But why is Briatore sounding like Todt did, when he was at Ferrari, crying that no-one really helped Ferrari?! No-one has this as their obligation, and certainly not Webber.
...and I don't believe he tried to help Alonso during the Brazilian GP.

[encircled]

[MortenF1]

There isn't really enough activity in this thread, so you've wasted your money on popcorn...

[encircled]

I love popcorn anyway so it's not wasted..

Speaking of which, anybody has seen Mark's interview in F1 Racing?

Edited by encircled, 07 December 2012 - 11:00.

[Alfisti]

Only the start was questionable IMO.

The start did not bother me too much, it was going three wide at the re-start, i mean for the love of god Mark.

[MortenF1]

What, when they were side-by-side with Kobayashi? I can't see what the problem was there really, as obviously Webber didn't want to end up behind a top-speed demon like the Sauber. Not his fault that Vettel overshot his braking point in the wet.

[krapmeister]

What, when they were side-by-side with Kobayashi? I can't see what the problem was there really, as obviously Webber didn't want to end up behind a top-speed demon like the Sauber. Not his fault that Vettel overshot his braking point in the wet.

Frankly, I think Mark just misjudged the tow he got from the 2 cars ahead of him, there was a bit of spray around so he probably didn't realise how close he was to Seb and when he did he went wide on the outside to avoid making any contact.

[Kelateboy]

Frankly, I think Mark just misjudged the tow he got from the 2 cars ahead of him, there was a bit of spray around so he probably didn't realise how close he was to Seb and when he did he went wide on the outside to avoid making any contact.

Yup, he finally bailed out, which was the right decision to make. But my opinion is he should not have attempted that move in the 1st place.

[goldenboy]

Frankly, I think Mark just misjudged the tow he got from the 2 cars ahead of him, there was a bit of spray around so he probably didn't realise how close he was to Seb and when he did he went wide on the outside to avoid making any contact.

yep, vettel was slow, webber went by and when he thought it was too close to vettel he got right out of the way. It was a restart and he was trying to avoid being overtaken by a quick sauber and avoid overtaking a slow vettel. The more I look at it the more fine it looks especially considering he took the outside line.

some ppl being a bit harsh on him I think. Especially considering he got right out of the way and gave him a place at one point!

[goldenboy]

Yup, he finally bailed out, which was the right decision to make. But my opinion is he should not have attempted that move in the 1st place.

he was trying to avoid being overtaken by koba and vet was slow. Not a whole lot of time at a restart and it's against an F1 drivers nature to just sit there and allow someone to overtake (koba). So you are saying he should have just slowed himself down behind vet who had a crap restart and let koba sail by both of them? What he did in the end was completely fine, vettel is a top driver, he can handle a car on his outside (especially considering it ended up driving away from him on purpose when it got close).

so what should he have done?

[eronrules]

http://www.planetf1....top-Seb-leaving

The 68-year-old also weighed in on Mark Webber's Red Bull career, saying the reigning World Champs are "lucky" to have a driver of his caliber teaming up with Vettel.

"In some races he can show his full potential," Mateschitz said.

"It is difficult for him to come up against Sebastian, but the team guarantees equal material and treatment for both drivers.

"When Mark is in his best shape, he is even hard for Sebastian to beat. We are lucky we have two real number ones."

poor old mark ...

P.S to the mods, please change the title to 'vettel vs webber - 2013'

Edited by eronrules, 12 March 2013 - 01:52.

[lbennie]

High praise from the boss, indeed.

He's right. We are the only team to have 2 drivers capable of multiple race wins per season.
Definitely the strongest driver lineup on the grid at the moment

[Brother Fox]

Damn it, when i saw this thread come up I thought there'd been a re-count on last years points



and this is the 2012 thread.
If you want a 2013 thread start it

Edited by Brother Fox, 12 March 2013 - 03:06.

[Sakae]

http://www.planetf1....top-Seb-leaving

The 68-year-old also weighed in on Mark Webber's Red Bull career, saying the reigning World Champs are "lucky" to have a driver of his caliber teaming up with Vettel.

"In some races he can show his full potential," Mateschitz said.

"It is difficult for him to come up against Sebastian, but the team guarantees equal material and treatment for both drivers.

"When Mark is in his best shape, he is even hard for Sebastian to beat. We are lucky we have two real number ones."

Pre-emptive strike, and Webber is left to his driving. No more double talk.