Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

Vettel vs Webber 2012


  • Please log in to reply
2134 replies to this topic

#801 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,338 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:43

As I said, at the same level just on the 3 first races. When Seb will adapt his driving style and find his way (the best thing and most positive thing could happen to a driver), he will outqualify again Mark, like he´s doing since 2009. That´s what I think.

This is possible. But you are being very presumptive.* The team had no reason to fix the Rb7 for webber (and it's just not possible without redesigning it with the integral ebd system), and they have no reason to fix the rb8 for vettel (and they will have to put their thinking caps on, but there is just no way they can make it work just like a true off-throttle blown diffuser car with such system banned).

*Conversely, the RB7 was almost never balanced properly for Webber's style. What use heaps of downforce if the darn thing won't turn properly! :)

The comparison is a pretty clear one for a "There's your problem" exclamation by the fellow with the extremely clean white shirt. Just compare Spain 2010 pole by Webber to Spain 2011 pole lap by Webber. The car had obvious and significant understeer there, and in other tracks other problems...

Advertisement

#802 Stormsky68

Stormsky68
  • Member

  • 1,623 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:51

yah de yah de yah

2012 the gap is .17 to Mark in qually, KERS failure, different tyres and car specs, in addition to the small sample size make this reasonably useless to us in the grand scheme of their time together. Race conditions we've not seen a straight fight between them yet, Seb looks like he's more comfy with the car in race trim, Mark doesn't seem effected either way when the fuel is chucked in.

yah de yah de yah

2012 is next to useless at this stage.


Hmmm are you absolutely sure it is quite fair to dismiss 2012 so arbitarily? Did you choose to dismiss the first 3 races in 2011 when SV was spanking the RB7 and Mark was struggling to get to grips with it? After all its the exact same mirror image isn't it?

(Wouldn't want anyone to be able to accuse you of selective statistics :cool: )

Edited by Stormsky68, 18 April 2012 - 11:52.


#803 Jaybools

Jaybools
  • Member

  • 260 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:55

Hmmm are you absolutely sure it is quite fair to dismiss 2012 so arbitarily? Did you choose to dismiss the first 3 races in 2011 when SV was spanking the RB7 and Mark was struggling to get to grips with it? After all its the exact same mirror image isn't it?

(Wouldn't want anyone to be able to accuse you of selective statistics :cool: )


Vettel isn't getting spanked. They have been around the same positions past 3 races with Mark tending to come out on top but only slightly. Same with quali.

#804 Stormsky68

Stormsky68
  • Member

  • 1,623 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 18 April 2012 - 14:52

Vettel isn't getting spanked. They have been around the same positions past 3 races with Mark tending to come out on top but only slightly. Same with quali.


Yes, your right, I never meant it quite in that way, however that is how it reads. My error.

I should have wrote SV spanking Mark in 2011 with Q3-0 and R3-0, Mark just shading it in 2012 by Q3-0 & R2-1.

But that detracts from the question, which is understanding the reason for selectively excluding data. I'm interested to understand the reasons behind that.....

#805 swiniodzik

swiniodzik
  • Member

  • 606 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 18 April 2012 - 18:46

I don't.

And I look at how the drivers drive the cars. Seb uses lots more wheel movement, and he's like Alonso, almost violent with the wheel when he's initiating the turn-in. . This is not someone who prefers a loose rear. I am not talking about steering corrections due to a loose rear either.

And this year, Seb's problem is that his late braking is not possible. Last year, he braked very late, swung the car across violently and then the EBD kept the rear locked down. The transition to rear grip is not at all "oversteer". Oversteer is really driving a car with the throttle. This year, Seb can't go deep and then engage rear grip technology.

Webber is much more a throttle guy, and uses much less steering wheel. That is fact, because I've looked at the telecasts. *

RBR will get the car back to Seb, no doubt at all. He's doing great considering the car is so much different, and his technique is going to have to change. Those days are over. Still, they did not last for long anyway. In days gone past, Seb'd be stuffed for half the season. But with the simulator, he'll be back any minute now.

Webber's weight loss has helped him too, its not an insignificant change. It can't be good for him though, and I reckon he may get sick this year.

If people doubt about the late entry issues of Seb, just read what RBR have publicly said.



* OK OK ... its opinion substantiated by fact ... IMO ... etc ;)


As for reading what Red Bull said:

http://www.motorspor...ore-than-vettel

The latest issue of Germany's Auto Motor und Sport magazine quotes Webber, 33, as admitting that he is enjoying the narrower and more durable 2010 tyres provided by sole supplier Bridgestone.

"The new generation of tyres better suit my driving style," he confirmed.

"The fronts do not bite as extremely and the rears have better lateral stability. Sebastian prefers it the other way around," added Webber.


http://news.bbc.co.u...one/9127533.stm

Though Vettel has generally had the upper hand in outright pace, the difference is much smaller than 2009 when he trounced Webber 15-2 in qualifying.

"I think that is about the front tyre being less powerful this year and that has made the car a bit less nervous on corner entry and so possibly that helps Mark's side more than Sebastian's," Newey commented.


-----

Here you have it straight from the horse's mouth. In general, more front grip suits Vettel, more rear grip suits Webber.

Some of your observations are spot on but I think the conclusions are wrong. Late braking and big steering wheel movements can't be the approach of somebody who likes a looser rear? Hamilton is a classic late braker who thrives under a looser rear, so it's not that black and white. First of all I don't like the words 'likes' or 'prefers', it's better to use 'copes' or 'utilizes' as I'd imagine every driver prefers a neutral-handling car, with that neutral state being subjective. For one it would be a slighty looser rear, for the other the opposite.

But coming back to Seb vs. Mark. From my observations of their onboards it seems that - and these thoughts are very simplified for the sake of making a point - Webber indeed begins turning a little bit earlier with less initial steering lock. Vettel starts with more initial steering done more abruptly which 'induces' over-steer and this gives him the needed direction change done quicker with Webber still busy with his steering. As a result, Seb has the car pointed at the apex earlier and is back on the gas earlier. That was the case last year.

This use of over-steer to hurry up the direction change is the more successful the more powerful the EBD is. The off-throttle EBD suited Vettel because with it he could just add more front wing which allowed him to lean on the front into the corners nicely, without worrying about the rear stepping out. Now he can't run the grippy front end and lean on it on corner entry because the rear gets too twitchy with no extra grip from the EBD. That's why he's complained about an unstable rear this year, not because he as a driver can't cope with one as good as Webber but because he's tried to drive the car the way he did so successfully last year, which now doesn't work.

So ergo, in my opinion Seb lost his advantage on corner entry and Mark gained on corner exit when the EBD kicks in and makes the car more under-steery which is more Webber territory. As I said, it's counter-intuitive but the new exhaust and mapping rules may overall just be playing to the strengths of those drivers like Webber who are more, not less dependent on a stable rear.

#806 LoudHoward

LoudHoward
  • Member

  • 1,306 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:10

But that detracts from the question, which is understanding the reason for selectively excluding data. I'm interested to understand the reasons behind that.....


I posted the data for qually, you can make of it what you will. I already posted the reasons why I feel it's difficult to use, you can disagree with them if you want, it doesn't bother me. I think we can use it to make some predictions about the rest of this year, but 3 clouded (in terms of head-to-head between them) races at this stage don't overrule what I've seen 3 years of just yet, even if deep down I'd love to call Mark a better qualifier than Senna because of it.


#807 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 568 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 18 April 2012 - 21:05

It was a rare sight seeing the 2 RBR drivers actually scrapping for position during a race.


I think Newey and Company needed data on the two routes and the only way to get that relevent data would be for both to go Flat Out. Maximum To The End. Anything else - i.e. one of them backing off - would corrupt the data and the evaluation process would be compromised.

Bahrain will be similar: Two routes (for the final time). Flat Out. Maximum Attack Mode. No Holds Barred. No Quarter Asked - No Quarter Given....Just don't hit each other.

Love it!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 18 April 2012 - 21:08.


#808 Silver Surfer

Silver Surfer
  • Member

  • 89 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 18 April 2012 - 23:23

http://www.f1zone.ne...-bahrain/13569/


Sebastian Vettel’s 2012 struggle looks set to continue for now.

It has emerged that, despite the reigning back-to-back champion preferring the launch version of the RB8, Red Bull has decided that Vettel will drive the latest specification of the car’s exhaust layout in Bahrain this weekend.

In China, the team allowed Vettel to go back to the previous spec, while Mark Webber qualified better and finished higher with Adrian Newey’s latest developments.

“He can’t get the confidence he needs with the car,” admitted Dr Helmut Marko on Austrian Servus TV, “and this makes him make uncharacteristic mistakes.”

Nonetheless, Red Bull has decided that the ‘Webber-specification’ exhaust is the right way forward.

“We will go on with the Mark Webber car,” Marko confirmed.

As for why the team’s Australian driver feels more comfortable in the updated car, Marko surmised: “Mark is less sensitive to the (car’s) behaviour.

“He just needs four wheels, but it’s different for Vettel,” he said.


So I have :

Qualifying:
Mark 3 Seb 0


Race:
Mark 2 Seb 1

Zingers:

Marko 1 Seb 0 :rotfl:

#809 LukeM

LukeM
  • Member

  • 960 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 19 April 2012 - 00:38

2009 the qually gap was around .25 to Seb for the season, this get's confused with a couple of factors, primarily Sebs inexperience, Marks injury and race fuel in qually. If you look at the points, fuel corrected times and incidents that happened throughout this year, I give a slight edge (maybe a tenth, maybe two) to Seb over a lap, while Marks race pace was on par with Seb's and his race craft better. I think this was their closest season as it was Mark that had the bad luck.

2010 the overall qually gap for the year was a touch under .2 to Seb - Marks one lap pace probably didn't improve relative to Seb, just that the fuel was gone so we got a "truer" figure. Seb got the bad luck this season, and was the better driver over the year, won more races, more poles, won the championship etc etc. Lost a lot of points from mechanical issues.

2011 the qually gap is about .4 - in qually, race conditions about the same imo. Mark could gun it to get somewhere near Seb's race pace at times, but generally wrecked his tyres doing it.

2012 the gap is .17 to Mark in qually, KERS failure, different tyres and car specs, in addition to the small sample size make this reasonably useless to us in the grand scheme of their time together. Race conditions we've not seen a straight fight between them yet, Seb looks like he's more comfy with the car in race trim, Mark doesn't seem effected either way when the fuel is chucked in.

So, the stats for their time together are pretty much:

Qualifying (from F1 Stats):
Seb - 42
Mark - 13

Races with both finished:
Seb - 31
Mark - 13

Points:
Seb - 768
Mark - 597.5

Wins:
Seb - 20
Mark - 7

Podiums:
Seb - 36
Mark - 27

Championships:
Seb 2
Mark 0

So, why exactly is it so odd that I think Seb has 2-3 tenths over Mark? Every single year they've been together Seb has won more, beaten Mark in qualifying and finished ahead of Mark in points.

2009 you've got basically the same difference between them that I mention, 1-3 tenths, and then mention Mark was quicker at "some circuits" after that. Hurray?

Then you've got Mark being quicker on raw pace up to Valencia 2010 by 1-2 tenths, yet the average was .14 to Seb (I removed Malaysia from the average 'cause different tyres, you may take that into account if you wish), and Seb was up 5:4 in qually. Some advantage over Seb that Mark had there.

2011 you've just dismissed because why not.

2012 is next to useless at this stage.

So yeh, I have the gap around 2-3 tenths, smaller and reversed some of the time, larger at other times. I think you'd find most people thing that Seb is the faster driver (all conditions being qually, race, dry or wet), and they'd probably put it in the kind of range I mentioned plus or minus a tenth or whatever. Up to this point, that is basically the only conclusion you can reach, look at the stats, unless what they're an exact match and Mark just hasn't been trying? Maybe Mark has been the faster of the two for the last 3 years but he just really likes hearing the German anthem? Nah, I don't think so...


the stats have been definintely towards Seb and without a doubt he has more raw speed than Mark, not even the die hardest of Webber fans would dispute this. However the gap over the 3 odd years on an average is closer than 0.3. If we factor in 2009 as you said with Webbers leg woes they were about even if you factor in his race pace.

2010 again was mega close, you only need to know that Webber led most of the championship, and won alot of races, and look at the qualifying gap's that the 2 were evenly matched that year.

2011 was a landslide to Seb, Mark battled to get up to speed with the tyres and was probably extremely deflated from 2010. His persona all year was that way up until he realized he was defeated and focused ahead for 2012.

This year is a role reversal from 2011 so far, so lets assume that Mark will continue beating Seb for the majority of the year than the conclusion leads to these 2 are extremely close.


#810 Bartel

Bartel
  • Member

  • 887 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 19 April 2012 - 00:46

Well well, this thread is hotter than the Button vs hamilton thread! WORLD FIRST!

#811 Black Widow

Black Widow
  • Member

  • 647 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 19 April 2012 - 00:54

So I have :

Qualifying:
Mark 3 Seb 0


Race:
Mark 2 Seb 1

Zingers:

Marko 1 Seb 0 :rotfl:

So that is unfair SS.

There are only 20 races this season.

Marko's Zingers will surely outnumber that.

Edited by Black Widow, 19 April 2012 - 01:01.


#812 Silver Surfer

Silver Surfer
  • Member

  • 89 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:02

So that is unfair SS.

There are only 20 races this season.

Marko's Zingers will surely outnumber that.



That is the truth!! :lol:

#813 LoudHoward

LoudHoward
  • Member

  • 1,306 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:15

This year is a role reversal from 2011 so far, so lets assume that Mark will continue beating Seb for the majority of the year than the conclusion leads to these 2 are extremely close.


Well, that's what I was doing, I was generating an average. I think Seb had a bit over Mark in 2009 but Marks race craft was relatively excellent, in pace though I think Seb had a tenth or two. 2010 Seb still had a tenth or two, and then 2011 he was pushing half a sec. Thus, 2-3 tenths is roughly where I end up, it's not a science by any means though, and everyone knows there are various factors that effect this, however we can only work with what we've got.

As for 2012, willing to wait and see what happens, hopefully you're right, though I'm not going to make such an assumption such as the above to override what we've actually seen. If it happens, then I'll re-evaluate as it does.

#814 LukeM

LukeM
  • Member

  • 960 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:19

I think your 2010 data is a bit messed up as I am not sure where you get your numbers from? Mark got multiple poles in '10 and also had maybe 5-6 races where they were within 0.1 of each other. Apart from that I agree with your other years, and considering 2011 and 2012 cancel each other out in a sense the gap is very close..

#815 LukeM

LukeM
  • Member

  • 960 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:24

just had a look to make sure my memory was right :

http://www.dlg.speed...010/f12010.html

mega close :)

#816 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,235 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:41

The team had no reason to fix the Rb7 for webber (and it's just not possible without redesigning it with the integral ebd system), and they have no reason to fix the rb8 for vettel

Webber is winning the championship in the RB8 is he?

#817 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 1,819 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:10

Webber is winning the championship in the RB8 is he?


he's not far off, in what is a much less competitive car this year.

#818 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,235 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:30

Yes, a lot less competitive car. What RB will do is whatever is going to make them competitive. Im not sure Im getting my point across here, the contest between the drivers is not the teams concern, it is the contest against other teams. They are going to do what they feel is going to get them wins, anything less is a crisis for them at this point. Webber (or Vettel) coming second in the championship is a loss for them. If they see a route to getting one of them to the championship then they are going to take it, with scant regard for the feelings of the other (whichever it is).

I find it highly unlikely that the best improvement in the cars ultimate pace is going to be found by doing something that suits vettel while making life harder for webber.. but if so then so be it.

#819 v@sh

v@sh
  • Member

  • 698 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:44

Yes, a lot less competitive car. What RB will do is whatever is going to make them competitive. Im not sure Im getting my point across here, the contest between the drivers is not the teams concern, it is the contest against other teams. They are going to do what they feel is going to get them wins, anything less is a crisis for them at this point. Webber (or Vettel) coming second in the championship is a loss for them. If they see a route to getting one of them to the championship then they are going to take it, with scant regard for the feelings of the other (whichever it is).

I find it highly unlikely that the best improvement in the cars ultimate pace is going to be found by doing something that suits vettel while making life harder for webber.. but if so then so be it.


Exactly, that will be more their priority. I find it funny when people post that this driver is a great developer of the car etc. because drivers aren't engineers. They just relay the feedback of what the car is doing so engineers can go and make it faster.

If one driver has a particular driving style gels well with the car that gives them the better ultimate lap time for those regulations, then they are more likely to head into that direction of development as we saw last year with Vettel - even though we know management prefer to build the car around Vettel anyway. Webber knew this the moment pre-season testing started last year and his driving style wasn't suited either to the tires or the car.

RBR will still accomodate to try and build the car around Vettel - as his request to go back to the pre-season car (his request, not Adrian's as Horner said since Adrian said in his BBC interview that it was Seb's request) - but if it deemed slower there is no point for them to continue down that path and he will have to live with it.

Also, I don't think Vettel's troubles are as big as people are making it out to be. Qualifying pace he has been a bit behind Webber but not by much, likewise the races he has had a bit of luck, better strategies and being on the right tire has helped him. If Webber sorts out his starts - which we've been saying forever - he would be in contention of higher places and the gap to Vettel would be much smaller (last year) or bigger (this year).

Advertisement

#820 Melbourne Park

Melbourne Park
  • Member

  • 19,062 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:52

Yes, a lot less competitive car. What RB will do is whatever is going to make them competitive. Im not sure Im getting my point across here, the contest between the drivers is not the teams concern, it is the contest against other teams. They are going to do what they feel is going to get them wins, anything less is a crisis for them at this point. Webber (or Vettel) coming second in the championship is a loss for them. If they see a route to getting one of them to the championship then they are going to take it, with scant regard for the feelings of the other (whichever it is).

I find it highly unlikely that the best improvement in the cars ultimate pace is going to be found by doing something that suits vettel while making life harder for webber.. but if so then so be it.


Great post. :up:

I presume the 'crisis" would not effect the owner though ... who knows its difficult to stay on top every year.

I wonder too, whether RBR's contractual situation with Vettel effects things. For instance, if his contract has to be renewed for next year, sometimes teams like to show a driver that they are not God. If you know what I mean ...

Edited by Melbourne Park, 19 April 2012 - 05:01.


#821 sanjiro

sanjiro
  • Member

  • 1,887 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:52

I find it highly unlikely that the best improvement in the cars ultimate pace is going to be found by doing something that suits vettel while making life harder for webber.. but if so then so be it.



and yet....

By Monaco in 2010 MW was able to smash the field in the RB6
When the changes were made to the EBD and engine mapping that brought the car to SV... neither of them were able to smash the field.
They kept winning but just like Turkey McLaren were never far away.
Whilst no armchair analysis is particularly valid, what we saw then was,
a change made to suit SV that just happened to slowed MW down quite significantly.
Points made about SVs chassis dont explain why MW was now slower relative to the rest of the field ( having dominated the 2 previous races)

Even though it looks like RBR will move forward with the newer exhaust, I have no doubt the the focus of its development will be (as will all RBR development from 2009) based on improving SVs situation NOT MWs

From early arguments on this forum winter of 2009 to today fans keep playing down the impact and influence HM has on the team
What HM says will be, will be and there are 3 years of evidence to back this up.
Can you EVER imagine RBR making such a significant change to the car at such short notice and great cost (time and cash) to help MW ?
In 2011 it was not until the last 3 races before they would even let MW use the 2010 start procedure he was comfortable with after an entire year of piss poor starts.

P.S. some have suggested that MW was the reason RBR didnt go with a KERS system in when the other teams did.
Given how @#$% their KERS was when they finally used it, I would bet it was more to do with the RBR KERS blowing chunks than ballast issues for MW

Edited by sanjiro, 19 April 2012 - 04:57.


#822 Melbourne Park

Melbourne Park
  • Member

  • 19,062 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 19 April 2012 - 04:57

Fact is Sanjiro that all teams behave that way, except it seems, for McLaren. And even they buried DC IMO.

I have no problem whatsover in the team favouring Seb. Because they are a business, and Seb is great for them. Good racing drivers are prima donnas ... but why isn't Webber? Because he did not come from a culture that had an avenue to an early F1 drive. Eventually he got there though, and now Webber is getting paid many millions, and he has a top car at last. He's simply delighted to be there.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 19 April 2012 - 04:59.


#823 sanjiro

sanjiro
  • Member

  • 1,887 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:00

Fact is Sanjiro that all teams behave that way, except it seems, for McLaren. And even they buried DC IMO.

I have no problem whatsover in the team favouring Seb. Because they are a business, and Seb is great for them. Good racing drivers are prima donnas ... but why isn't Webber? Because he did not come from a culture that had an avenue to an early F1 drive. Eventually he got there though, and now Webber is getting paid many millions, and he has a top car at last. He's simply delighted to be there.



I dont have a problem with it either.
Clearly nor does MW or he would not have signed on year after year.
Many people here however are arguing that this is NOT what RBR do

#824 Brother Fox

Brother Fox
  • Member

  • 4,650 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:06

and yet....

By Monaco in 2010 MW was able to smash the field in the RB6
When the changes were made to the EBD and engine mapping that brought the car to SV... neither of them were able to smash the field.
They kept winning but just like Turkey McLaren were never far away.
Whilst no armchair analysis is particularly valid, what we saw then was,
a change made to suit SV that just happened to slowed MW down quite significantly.


To get ahead in Formula 1 you need to make two steps forward, because your competitors will be making one too.
I think the quote belongs to Peter Sauber, and its more paraphrasing than quoting, but the gist is there. We will never know but maybe without the changes their little winning margin would have become a little loosing margin?
Did it slow Webber down, or just affect their gap to McLaren??


#825 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,235 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:17

By Monaco in 2010 MW was able to smash the field in the RB6

Mark will always do too well at monaco, like kubica. the car needed to be faster at ALL circuits.

#826 sanjiro

sanjiro
  • Member

  • 1,887 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:32

Mark will always do too well at monaco, like kubica. the car needed to be faster at ALL circuits.


What like MW did well in Monaco 2011 ?

#827 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 1,819 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:52

What like MW did well in Monaco 2011 ?


well he's average'd 4.5 there in qualifying since he left jag. including the 2011 blow out.

tells you all you need to know when you look at what hes been driving there.





#828 sanjiro

sanjiro
  • Member

  • 1,887 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:10

well he's average'd 4.5 there in qualifying since he left jag. including the 2011 blow out.

tells you all you need to know when you look at what hes been driving there.


I was going to point out how you are both missing my point (deliberately I have no doubt)
But to be honest I just dont care enough.

MW is not and has NEVER been the focus of RBR development since the start 2009
Anyone sho says otherwise is just fooling themselves or trying to fool others.

#829 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 1,819 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:33

guilty as charged (about missing your point).

I must admit, I only read the last past on here before replying, so missed the context completely.

I agree.

#830 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,338 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:40

MW is not and has NEVER been the focus of RBR development since the start 2009
Anyone sho says otherwise is just fooling themselves or trying to fool others.

Of course.

#831 LoudHoward

LoudHoward
  • Member

  • 1,306 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:48

just had a look to make sure my memory was right :

http://www.dlg.speed...010/f12010.html

mega close :)


Don't forget to add in 60-70 points for Seb's mechanical failures, I don't recall Mark having any that cost him? Oh, maybe 2 points for Canada qually? :wave:

Sanjiro, when did RBR introduce EBD mapping in 2010?

#832 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 1,819 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:53

Don't forget to add in 60-70 points for Seb's mechanical failures, I don't recall Mark having any that cost him?


that's what happens when one driver gets all the fresh bits first loud :p



#833 LukeM

LukeM
  • Member

  • 960 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:20

Don't forget to add in 60-70 points for Seb's mechanical failures, I don't recall Mark having any that cost him? Oh, maybe 2 points for Canada qually? :wave:

Sanjiro, when did RBR introduce EBD mapping in 2010?


I think we were talking about more raw pace, not mechanical failures.

#834 LoudHoward

LoudHoward
  • Member

  • 1,306 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:27

I think we were talking about more raw pace, not mechanical failures.


Well, you posted the link and I was responding to that. I was hoping we might go off on a glorious tangent!

#835 Stormsky68

Stormsky68
  • Member

  • 1,623 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:53

I posted the data for qually, you can make of it what you will. I already posted the reasons why I feel it's difficult to use, you can disagree with them if you want, it doesn't bother me. I think we can use it to make some predictions about the rest of this year, but 3 clouded (in terms of head-to-head between them) races at this stage don't overrule what I've seen 3 years of just yet, even if deep down I'd love to call Mark a better qualifier than Senna because of it.


I'm no trying to start a row, but I do disagree.

You are excluding the 2012 races in any SV MW comparison as they are 'clouded' because SV is struggling with the car and MW is not.

My point is that there have been times over the last 4 years which have also been 'clouded' for other reasons, including where MW has struggled with the car and SV has not.

You can't selectively exclude some 'clouded' data, you need to exclude it all or none, otherwise the statsistics are skewed.

Edited by Stormsky68, 19 April 2012 - 07:54.


#836 SennaBoys

SennaBoys
  • Member

  • 58 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:34

Well Seb didn't damage "his" as such, it broke off the mountings of it's own accord. But, well, someone was going to get screwed through no fault of their own so there'd be an argument about it either way really. Kinda sucks they didn't have more wings, but nice to know the team pushes hard.

I tell ya, when I saw Marks nose in the air I thought the fronts were going to fly off when he landed, like Malaysia '08 with DC or maybe Buemi at the end of the main straight! Was hell relieved! Glad he got to go on and get Seb, was an epic move, the little jink just before the braking zone to make Seb jink just as he'd want to commit, awesome! :D


Fully agree, it's a shame Red Bull didn't have more front wings, it could have saved them a lot of grief and bad press but they are pretty agressive in their car deleoplement so I suppose at times, they cut time lines pretty thin.

Yeah right, I was also thinking about what happened to Petrov when he went airbourne with his steering wheel/column came off in his hands. We were treated to some great racing right throughout the field last weekend. it should be very interesting to see how the battle goes forward both overall and the inner team battles :up:

#837 LoudHoward

LoudHoward
  • Member

  • 1,306 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:52

I'm no trying to start a row, but I do disagree.

You are excluding the 2012 races in any SV MW comparison as they are 'clouded' because SV is struggling with the car and MW is not.

My point is that there have been times over the last 4 years which have also been 'clouded' for other reasons, including where MW has struggled with the car and SV has not.

You can't selectively exclude some 'clouded' data, you need to exclude it all or none, otherwise the statsistics are skewed.


I didn't exclude 2012 from any of the stats I posted, and yer I don't give 2012 the same weight in my analysis as 2011, 2010 or 2009. Nowhere near it, and nor should I, I can't think of any reason why I would? LukeM is talking as though 2012 is cancelling out 2011 already, geesh we've had three races, ones been wet and the other one they had different spec cars!

It has nothing to do with who is struggling or who isn't - it's just we haven't seen enough and then on top of that what we have seen is rubbish when it comes to a true comparison. If you think you have, then all power to you.

Edited by LoudHoward, 19 April 2012 - 08:53.


#838 FPV GTHO

FPV GTHO
  • Member

  • 836 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:58

Fact is Sanjiro that all teams behave that way, except it seems, for McLaren. And even they buried DC IMO.

I have no problem whatsover in the team favouring Seb. Because they are a business, and Seb is great for them. Good racing drivers are prima donnas ... but why isn't Webber? Because he did not come from a culture that had an avenue to an early F1 drive. Eventually he got there though, and now Webber is getting paid many millions, and he has a top car at last. He's simply delighted to be there.


We did see Ferrari support Massa in 2008 though, even though their mega acquisition in Raikkonen had even taken the previous years title.

#839 David1976

David1976
  • Member

  • 809 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:59

As for reading what Red Bull said:


But coming back to Seb vs. Mark. From my observations of their onboards it seems that - and these thoughts are very simplified for the sake of making a point - Webber indeed begins turning a little bit earlier with less initial steering lock. Vettel starts with more initial steering done more abruptly which 'induces' over-steer and this gives him the needed direction change done quicker with Webber still busy with his steering. As a result, Seb has the car pointed at the apex earlier and is back on the gas earlier. That was the case last year.

This use of over-steer to hurry up the direction change is the more successful the more powerful the EBD is. The off-throttle EBD suited Vettel because with it he could just add more front wing which allowed him to lean on the front into the corners nicely, without worrying about the rear stepping out. Now he can't run the grippy front end and lean on it on corner entry because the rear gets too twitchy with no extra grip from the EBD. That's why he's complained about an unstable rear this year, not because he as a driver can't cope with one as good as Webber but because he's tried to drive the car the way he did so successfully last year, which now doesn't work.

So ergo, in my opinion Seb lost his advantage on corner entry and Mark gained on corner exit when the EBD kicks in and makes the car more under-steery which is more Webber territory. As I said, it's counter-intuitive but the new exhaust and mapping rules may overall just be playing to the strengths of those drivers like Webber who are more, not less dependent on a stable rear.


This is exactly how I see it.

Advertisement

#840 Stormsky68

Stormsky68
  • Member

  • 1,623 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:58

I didn't exclude 2012 from any of the stats I posted, and yer I don't give 2012 the same weight in my analysis as 2011, 2010 or 2009. Nowhere near it, and nor should I, I can't think of any reason why I would? LukeM is talking as though 2012 is cancelling out 2011 already, geesh we've had three races, ones been wet and the other one they had different spec cars!

It has nothing to do with who is struggling or who isn't - it's just we haven't seen enough and then on top of that what we have seen is rubbish when it comes to a true comparison. If you think you have, then all power to you.


So your statistics and therefore analysis is skewed then

#841 Brother Fox

Brother Fox
  • Member

  • 4,650 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 20 April 2012 - 02:50

Posted Image


From the photoshop thread ... with absolutely all credit to amjs :up:

Too good not to share with this crowd

#842 MP422

MP422
  • Member

  • 1,710 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 20 April 2012 - 03:05

Posted Image


From the photoshop thread ... with absolutely all credit to amjs :up:

Too good not to share with this crowd


Love it !! :love: :love:

#843 Melbourne Park

Melbourne Park
  • Member

  • 19,062 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:12

Posted Image


From the photoshop thread ... with absolutely all credit to amjs :up:

Too good not to share with this crowd


Hilarious.

:rotfl: :lol: :clap:

#844 fatd

fatd
  • Member

  • 800 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:00

^ Webber's expression is priceless!!

#845 GreenMachine

GreenMachine
  • Member

  • 756 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:23

^ Webber's expression is priceless!!


FP1 results might lead to some re-editing of this photo ... :rolleyes:

#846 Brother Fox

Brother Fox
  • Member

  • 4,650 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:27

They're giving points for FP now are they

#847 sanjiro

sanjiro
  • Member

  • 1,887 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:40

They're giving points for FP now are they



Nope :)

and MW is not suddenly 0.9s slower than SV in the RB8
However...
This is NOT a track MW does well at.


#848 fatd

fatd
  • Member

  • 800 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:43

FP1 results might lead to some re-editing of this photo ... :rolleyes:


i'd gladly take the honor but I guess we'll have to wait a bit later for that :smoking:

#849 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,191 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:04

Nope :)

and MW is not suddenly 0.9s slower than SV in the RB8
However...
This is NOT a track MW does well at.


A best of 6th, how come?
A bit too much point 'n' squirt?



#850 GeoffR

GeoffR
  • Member

  • 481 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:28

So do we know which version of the RB8 Vettel is using this weekend - new 'Webber' exhaust one of the older one he used in China?