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Vettel vs Webber 2012


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#301 goingthedistance

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:23

I read something (don't know whether to trust the source) that Seb could get sanctioned by a suspended ban or a grid penalty for his middle finger gesture and his outburst in an interview after the race, as its breaching some code of conduct in the superlicence.

Has anyone ever been penalised for that, I've seen plenty of middle finger gestures by drivers and nothing done but apparantly the FIA have tightened the rules on bad behaviour on track.



F1 : Sebastian Vettel risks penalty for middle finger tirade at fellow Formula 1 driver

The FIA could sanction Formula One's reigning double World Champion for his behaviour during the recent Grand Prix in Malaysia.

Before calling back marker Narain Karthikeyan a "gherkin" and "idiot" in the wake of their collision, Sebastian Vettel was captured by his on-board camera twice displaying his middle finger to the Indian driver.

"I think he's highly frustrated because he's having a tough season," Karthikeyan told the Deccan Chronicle on Wednesday.

"It's completely unprofessional to blame me for the incident. The derogatory remark only goes to show him in bad light.

"Just because he has a good car, he can't call others an idiot," Karthikeyan continued.

"I have won races in all the previous single seater championships I have participated in so I don't need a certificate from Vettel."

Reports in Germany, including in the Kolner Express, Bild and Die Welt newspapers, claim that Red Bull driver's behaviour may have breached the new stricter code of conduct introduced by FIA president Jean Todt.

The FIA has been contacted for comment.

"He has breached the code of conduct," former Formula 1 driver Marc Surer told Germany's Sky television. "You sign it when you get the license and then you have to behave correspondingly.

"Any behaviour that hurts other people or the sport is an offence," added the Swiss.

Asked what the penalties might be, Surer explained: "Anything from a warning to a license revocation. In this case I think it was quite understandable and there will be a mild punishment, if there is anything."

Hans-Joachim Stuck, however, is slightly less forgiving.

"When you're overtaking, misunderstandings can occur. I think Vettel needs to learn this.

"With him, the curve was always upwards and now it's not the case, and he needs to deal with that," the German legend told the DAPD news agency.

As for Vettel's description of Karthikeyan as a "gherkin", Stuck insisted: "It's better than 'asshole'."

Vettel's attack, however, was sustained, with Kleine Zeitung newspaper now quoting the Red Bull driver as having said: "Maybe Formula One is not the place to learn how to drive."

Stuck responded: "If Sebastian had left more space, it would not have happened. It happens sometimes so it's a racing incident.

"He (Karthikeyan) didn't do it on purpose and it always takes two."

The HRT F1 driver hit back by calling Vettel a "bully", and even David Coulthard, a Red Bull team consultant, defended Karthikeyan.

"He can't make his car invisible," the Scot is quoted as saying by the Mirror.

Also defending Karthikeyan was Force India driver Nico Hulkenberg, who told the Indian press this week: "From what I saw, it was not Narain's fault.

"So I don't really understand why he (Vettel) said all that."

Hukenberg's Force India team-mate Paul di Resta added: "Narain is entitled to do as much on the track in comparison with someone like Vettel.

"Both are Formula 1 drivers and are there to represent their teams."

http://f1sa.com/inde...e...&Itemid=157

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#302 karne

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:37

I read something (don't know whether to trust the source) that Seb could get sanctioned by a suspended ban or a grid penalty for his middle finger gesture and his outburst in an interview after the race, as its breaching some code of conduct in the superlicence.

Has anyone ever been penalised for that, I've seen plenty of middle finger gestures by drivers and nothing done but apparantly the FIA have tightened the rules on bad behaviour on track.


Okay, I don't like Vettel, but that would be ridiculous.

As much as I don't agree with the finger and the cucumber/idiot outburst was not the best, it's called the heat of competition. You can't control emotions of people while they're in the competition. And the past has shown that sticking a microphone under the nose of a player/driver when they've just finished is a REALLY bad idea. I'm sure every Mark and Vettel fan can remember a certain line...

#303 Nigol

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:41

I read something (don't know whether to trust the source) that Seb could get sanctioned by a suspended ban or a grid penalty for his middle finger gesture and his outburst in an interview after the race, as its breaching some code of conduct in the superlicence.

Has anyone ever been penalised for that, I've seen plenty of middle finger gestures by drivers and nothing done but apparantly the FIA have tightened the rules on bad behaviour on track.


I've read it changed since 2009 (Hamilton burnout).

#304 iotar

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:41

F1 : Sebastian Vettel risks penalty for middle finger tirade at fellow Formula 1 driver

The FIA could sanction Formula One's reigning double World Champion for his behaviour during the recent Grand Prix in Malaysia.

Before calling back marker Narain Karthikeyan a "gherkin" and "idiot" in the wake of their collision, Sebastian Vettel was captured by his on-board camera twice displaying his middle finger to the Indian driver.

"I think he's highly frustrated because he's having a tough season," Karthikeyan told the Deccan Chronicle on Wednesday.

"It's completely unprofessional to blame me for the incident. The derogatory remark only goes to show him in bad light.

"Just because he has a good car, he can't call others an idiot," Karthikeyan continued.

"I have won races in all the previous single seater championships I have participated in so I don't need a certificate from Vettel."

Reports in Germany, including in the Kolner Express, Bild and Die Welt newspapers, claim that Red Bull driver's behaviour may have breached the new stricter code of conduct introduced by FIA president Jean Todt.

The FIA has been contacted for comment.

"He has breached the code of conduct," former Formula 1 driver Marc Surer told Germany's Sky television. "You sign it when you get the license and then you have to behave correspondingly.

"Any behaviour that hurts other people or the sport is an offence," added the Swiss.

Asked what the penalties might be, Surer explained: "Anything from a warning to a license revocation. In this case I think it was quite understandable and there will be a mild punishment, if there is anything."

Hans-Joachim Stuck, however, is slightly less forgiving.

"When you're overtaking, misunderstandings can occur. I think Vettel needs to learn this.

"With him, the curve was always upwards and now it's not the case, and he needs to deal with that," the German legend told the DAPD news agency.

As for Vettel's description of Karthikeyan as a "gherkin", Stuck insisted: "It's better than 'asshole'."

Vettel's attack, however, was sustained, with Kleine Zeitung newspaper now quoting the Red Bull driver as having said: "Maybe Formula One is not the place to learn how to drive."

Stuck responded: "If Sebastian had left more space, it would not have happened. It happens sometimes so it's a racing incident.

"He (Karthikeyan) didn't do it on purpose and it always takes two."

The HRT F1 driver hit back by calling Vettel a "bully", and even David Coulthard, a Red Bull team consultant, defended Karthikeyan.

"He can't make his car invisible," the Scot is quoted as saying by the Mirror.

Also defending Karthikeyan was Force India driver Nico Hulkenberg, who told the Indian press this week: "From what I saw, it was not Narain's fault.

"So I don't really understand why he (Vettel) said all that."

Hukenberg's Force India team-mate Paul di Resta added: "Narain is entitled to do as much on the track in comparison with someone like Vettel.

"Both are Formula 1 drivers and are there to represent their teams."

http://f1sa.com/inde...e...&Itemid=157

When it comes to these kinds of incidents other F1 drivers (current and past) are usually spot on. Much better source of insight and perspective than emotional fans. They know they can be on the either side sometimes. I remember every single driver said it was Hamilton's fault in Spa 2008. Here for many it's still FIA's conspiracy, same with Japan 2008 and many others.

"From what I saw, it was not Narain's fault." "He can't make his car invisible," "He (Karthikeyan) didn't do it on purpose and it always takes two." Pretty much my arguments. :up:


#305 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:26

Invisible is the wrong word actually. Ethereal is what Narain's car had to be lol :p

#306 goldenboy

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:39

I loved seeing him give NK the finger, couldn't stop laughing for awhile :lol:

well, in the arena of off the cuff actions that turn out to be quite provocative/funny, vettel is dominating mark this year, after having his ass handed to him for awhile now

SV 1 MW 0

#307 joshb

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:43

Okay, I don't like Vettel, but that would be ridiculous.

As much as I don't agree with the finger and the cucumber/idiot outburst was not the best, it's called the heat of competition. You can't control emotions of people while they're in the competition. And the past has shown that sticking a microphone under the nose of a player/driver when they've just finished is a REALLY bad idea. I'm sure every Mark and Vettel fan can remember a certain line...


Ah, the millions waking up to the f-bomb!

#308 Supersleeper

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 21:50

F1 : Sebastian Vettel risks penalty for middle finger tirade at fellow Formula 1 driver

So you can beat people within an inch of their life and still get a race sanctioned - but you raise your middle finger and you get banned, fined or reprimanded?

The FIA - an eternal spring of hypocrisy.

As a fan it's disappointing to see the idea of a sanction being floated for a driver, essentially, showing that they are passionate about what they do. Though it does explain the more recent culture of F1 being an entirely dispassionate sport plagued by pettiness.

#309 Brother Fox

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 23:10

What will Horner's response be?

"The FIA didnt win, Sebastian Vettel lost"


#310 Melbourne Park

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 00:12

So you can beat people within an inch of their life and still get a race sanctioned - but you raise your middle finger and you get banned, fined or reprimanded?

The FIA - an eternal spring of hypocrisy.

As a fan it's disappointing to see the idea of a sanction being floated for a driver, essentially, showing that they are passionate about what they do. Though it does explain the more recent culture of F1 being an entirely dispassionate sport plagued by pettiness.


On the other hand, the driver's don't tell their fans much anyway. They really lie all the time, and don't even convey the problems their car is having, or the problems their team is having, or their own problems either. The closest we get to reality is when a driver lets his guard down, and that is rare. The drivel at the end of every race by the winner makes me sick: I'd like to thank all the guys in the factory who worked so hard to make this car what it is, and thanks to all the team here, etc etc etc." What a load of pre rehearsed nonsense all that stuff is.

It's pathetic to see Mark Webber holding the truth back too ... but he wants his drive, and he wants the 8-15 million they pay him every season. So he zips it too. Hamilton was extremely pissed after the Melbourne race, so we had to watch him totally zip it too ... he just sat their and practiced the techniques he's been taught, to shut up and hold it all in. Oh for the days when Senna would attack another driver after the race.

These days, they'd probably impose fines from the FIA and have to pay $20,000 for health professionals for consulting for Mika Häkkinen's crying in his helmut after his McLaren car left the track. And of course, Mika was a protected species inside McLaren, but team McLaren would never admit to it - just ask David Coultard about that. Wouldn't it have been nice for Alonso to have thanked his team for telling Sauber/Ferrari not to win the Malaysian race.

IMO Kimi is the closest to being straight, because he says the least, and there's something bazaar about his expression - it has the ring of truth.

The fact is that the drivers are paid millions, and they get professionally trained to bullshit, and to say nothing with any content. So when someone gives the bird, while I praise it, its simply unprofessional.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 29 March 2012 - 00:34.


#311 lbennie

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 00:13

yeah, not a fan of this.

what's wrong with drivers showing a bit of passion?

also gives the fans something to talk about :D


its all getting too PC and sterile.



#312 Mohawkk

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 01:36

During or straight after the race is understandable, but wasnt vettle still banging on about it the next day.
NK was just defending himself.
I would love to see Vettel in a HRT for 3-4races

#313 karne

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:30

Ah, the millions waking up to the f-bomb!


It was midafternoon for us :up:

#314 LoudHoward

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:31

"From what I saw, it was not Narain's fault." "He can't make his car invisible," "He (Karthikeyan) didn't do it on purpose and it always takes two." Pretty much my arguments. :up:


"Fact: Causing a collision with Car 1 Sebastian Vettel" "Reason: Self-explanatory"

Pretty much my argument :up:

Edited by LoudHoward, 29 March 2012 - 03:31.


#315 bourbon

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:39

During or straight after the race is understandable, but wasnt vettle still banging on about it the next day.


I think Seb was done on Sunday. Narian finished Wednesday.

NK was just defending himself.
I would love to see Vettel in a HRT for 3-4races


Vettel would do his best - that is what he does on the track.

Edited by bourbon, 29 March 2012 - 03:49.


#316 GreenMachine

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:58

"Fact: Causing a collision with Car 1 Sebastian Vettel" "Reason: Self-explanatory"

Pretty much my argument :up:



That is only half the story.

Scene: RedBull motorhome, post race debrief.
Cast: HM, CH, SV, MW, et al

CH: Good race Mark. Sorry about the delay in the pits, but we couldn't give you an unsafe release.
MW: No problem, I could see it was chaotic. (to himself) At least I finished in front of that little...
CH: You were doing nicely there Seb, how did you let NK get so close to you?
HM: Yeah, how many times have I told you to stay clear of the (insert selection of choice Austrian expletives) backmarkers, you never know when those (insert more Austrian expletives) will do something stupid!
MW: Yeah, tell me about it!
SV: ...

:rotfl:

#317 lbennie

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:19

exactly, it was NK's fault.
but seb should have given him more space to allow for the stupidity that might occur.

especially in conditions like that, with so many variables floating around.



#318 HoldenRT

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:28

Hate these long gaps between races. 3 weeks is way too long. Way too much talking and not enough racing. The last few pages of this topic have been complete and utter BS.

#319 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:24

exactly, it was NK's fault.
but seb should have given him more space to allow for the stupidity that might occur.

especially in conditions like that, with so many variables floating around.

NK was being lapped (again...) He should have moved out of the way.

That said, even with a car on which Vettel hardly did any test due to reliability issues, and one on which he is certainly not comfortable at (qualifying with the hard rubber despite of the lack of grip induced by the tyres), he seems to still have the upper hand on Webber for race day. When (if?) SV gets a bit more comfortable in the car, it will be game over (again) for Mark.

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#320 Supersleeper

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 20:12

The fact is that the drivers are paid millions, and they get professionally trained to bullshit, and to say nothing with any content.

Given that the F1 media has become "fashionably facile" - it's become pointless for teams/drivers to speak their minds. The first thing we get is some wannabe journo on a GMM "7 stories a day" site punching out some B/S headline that has little to do with the content of a conversation.

There's a thread in here started by a poster who didn't get past the headline before jumping off the deep end.

10 spoken words or less is about the standard that the average F1 fan can deal with theses days. Fewer are taking to time to read what is said before understanding what is said and being able to draw any sensible conclusion from it.

Fake moral outrage is the fashion - encouraged by people who know so little, that they just join in.

Little wonder teams/drivers/personnel take so little time to provide content when "journalists" in the sport are unable to digest it, don't have the skills to convey it and know so little fundamentally of it that they've got no idea what their subject content should be. The village idiot is running the village, and until that changes - interviews will remain as facile as the journalists who report them.

There are some notable exceptions - thankfully.

#321 Black Widow

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 20:50

Given that the F1 media has become "fashionably facile" - it's become pointless for teams/drivers to speak their minds. The first thing we get is some wannabe journo on a GMM "7 stories a day" site punching out some B/S headline that has little to do with the content of a conversation.

There's a thread in here started by a poster who didn't get past the headline before jumping off the deep end.

10 spoken words or less is about the standard that the average F1 fan can deal with theses days. Fewer are taking to time to read what is said before understanding what is said and being able to draw any sensible conclusion from it.

Fake moral outrage is the fashion - encouraged by people who know so little, that they just join in.

Little wonder teams/drivers/personnel take so little time to provide content when "journalists" in the sport are unable to digest it, don't have the skills to convey it and know so little fundamentally of it that they've got no idea what their subject content should be. The village idiot is running the village, and until that changes - interviews will remain as facile as the journalists who report them.

There are some notable exceptions - thankfully.

And the headline for that............

VILLAGE IDIOT CONDEMNS FECES ON TRACK

:rotfl:

P.S. Couldn't agree with you more!

#322 Melbourne Park

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 16:53

Given that the F1 media has become "fashionably facile" - it's become pointless for teams/drivers to speak their minds. The first thing we get is some wannabe journo on a GMM "7 stories a day" site punching out some B/S headline that has little to do with the content of a conversation.


It's not the media that is at fault, which I think you are pointing to. The prime fault is the desire for the teams to protect their technology. This results in drivers - and other team members - not being able to be straight.


Edited by Melbourne Park, 31 March 2012 - 16:54.


#323 LoudHoward

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:11

It's not the media that is at fault, which I think you are pointing to. The prime fault is the desire for the teams to protect their technology. This results in drivers - and other team members - not being able to be straight.


Come on it's not that either, it's because the money comes from sponsorship and TV revenues, when the drivers speak their minds the PC brigades come knocking. The post race press conferences are so hugely bland, and it's not because they aren't talking about the steepness of the pressure gradient on their diffuser lol...

#324 FPV GTHO

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:28

I think you can make a solid case on it being for keeping the sponsors happy. Perhaps the teams should twist that to their favour when arguing for more TV money. If theyre not as reliant on their own sponsorship they can let loose a bit more, speak their mind and maybe open up a bit in more ways than one.

Edited by FPV GTHO, 01 April 2012 - 07:40.


#325 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 15:11

Is this Webber's best ever start to an F1 season? I think it might be, especially after the first couple of meetings. Two 4ths with a better placing in the standings over an extremely highly-rated teammate.

And he's not even in the fastest/co-fastest car at the moment!

Interesting.

Not to get Mark's die-hard fan's backsides into a tizzy ... but how long will this last against Herr Vettel? Can he make it last now that the EBD regs have 'come towards him'?

#326 goingthedistance

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 15:31

I doubt it will last as Horner has already said there are developments in the pipeline to get Seb back on track. Team doesn't operate around Mark, it operates around Seb. If their needs happen to coincide maybe these developments will be okay for Mark.

I think Seb is struggling with front grip in particular - maybe the loss of the flexi wing and serious rake have been as big a factor as the EBD?

#327 KateLM

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 15:51

Is this Webber's best ever start to an F1 season? I think it might be, especially after the first couple of meetings. Two 4ths with a better placing in the standings over an extremely highly-rated teammate.

And he's not even in the fastest/co-fastest car at the moment!

Interesting.

Not to get Mark's die-hard fan's backsides into a tizzy ... but how long will this last against Herr Vettel? Can he make it last now that the EBD regs have 'come towards him'?

I think it is, but after the starts he's made to the past 3 seasons that really isn't saying much in all honesty.

If he continues his trend of coming on strong in the opening European rounds then he could be a real threat to Vettel. But that would have to happen because Vettel will get to grips with the new regs sooner or later - and I would bank on it being the former.

#328 Alfisti

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 16:04

it'll fall apart when w eget to fiddly Tilke tracks, ones with way too many pointless turns. i.e. Bahrain.

#329 goingthedistance

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 16:23

it'll fall apart when w eget to fiddly Tilke tracks, ones with way too many pointless turns. i.e. Bahrain.


Yeah Mark always has a shocker at Bahrain, I wouldn't be surprised if this year was worse than most as the Red Bulls will have a battle on their hands to be competitive at such an engine track (back to old layout again this year). Mind you, there's a good chance that GP won't happen again.

Edited by goingthedistance, 02 April 2012 - 16:23.


#330 Melbourne Park

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:21

I doubt it will last as Horner has already said there are developments in the pipeline to get Seb back on track. Team doesn't operate around Mark, it operates around Seb. If their needs happen to coincide maybe these developments will be okay for Mark.

I think Seb is struggling with front grip in particular - maybe the loss of the flexi wing and serious rake have been as big a factor as the EBD?


The greatest loss of grip has been at the back of the cars, not the front. IMO its rear grip that is upsetting him. Last year, the RBR's rear was glued to the road, and early power down in the RBR was a significant advantage. Now the cars are twiching in the rear - I can see it on the track. Although they still have more rear grip than almost all others, maybe the best perhaps. It's a rear grip issue, and compounded by the tyre issues as well IMO, and perhaps things to do with the throttle.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 05 April 2012 - 02:22.


#331 krea

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:46

Is this Webber's best ever start to an F1 season? I think it might be, especially after the first couple of meetings. Two 4ths with a better placing in the standings over an extremely highly-rated teammate.

And he's not even in the fastest/co-fastest car at the moment!

Interesting.

Not to get Mark's die-hard fan's backsides into a tizzy ... but how long will this last against Herr Vettel? Can he make it last now that the EBD regs have 'come towards him'?


If Vettel has the same race speed like in the last two races it could be in China

#332 andrewr

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:29

If Vettel has the same race speed like in the last two races it could be in China

Maybe, but I don't think his race pace has been clearly superior to Webber's in the last two races. (With the exception of getting to the first corner in a reasonable time, lol)

Edited by andrewr, 05 April 2012 - 05:33.


#333 FPV GTHO

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:15

The greatest loss of grip has been at the back of the cars, not the front. IMO its rear grip that is upsetting him. Last year, the RBR's rear was glued to the road, and early power down in the RBR was a significant advantage. Now the cars are twiching in the rear - I can see it on the track. Although they still have more rear grip than almost all others, maybe the best perhaps. It's a rear grip issue, and compounded by the tyre issues as well IMO, and perhaps things to do with the throttle.


I dont think hes bothered by the lack of rear grip. I think hes struggling with the understeer balance of the car during qualifying that disappears on scrubbed tyres.

#334 choyothe

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:06

Maybe, but I don't think his race pace has been clearly superior to Webber's in the last two races. (With the exception of getting to the first corner in a reasonable time, lol)


Agreed, I'd say their race pace overall has been pretty equal, it's in the intangibles (starts, pouncing with good overtakes on important points, crew doing better pit stops) Vettel has been able to put himself in front of Webber from the grid posittions. I really hope Seb gets a good feel for the car in China so they can both start putting pressure on Mcs throughout the weekend.

#335 Dunder

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:41

I dont think hes bothered by the lack of rear grip. I think hes struggling with the understeer balance of the car during qualifying that disappears on scrubbed tyres.


I would broadly agree with that.


#336 joshb

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 16:10

Agreed, I'd say their race pace overall has been pretty equal, it's in the intangibles (starts, pouncing with good overtakes on important points, crew doing better pit stops) Vettel has been able to put himself in front of Webber from the grid posittions. I really hope Seb gets a good feel for the car in China so they can both start putting pressure on Mcs throughout the weekend.


Yeah, watching the 2 macca's dice for the title will almost be as 'boring' as watching Seb win every other race. Its just that scenario where they can race the mclarens but by the end of the first lap they may not have the track position to be able to do so. It may take till the 2nd or 3rd stint to get past Mercs and Lotus cars, by which time Mclarens can manager the pace well out in front.
I'm still massively optimistic for both RB drivers, as long as when it comes to the crunch Seb gets the results.

#337 goingthedistance

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 17:56

The greatest loss of grip has been at the back of the cars, not the front. IMO its rear grip that is upsetting him. Last year, the RBR's rear was glued to the road, and early power down in the RBR was a significant advantage. Now the cars are twiching in the rear - I can see it on the track. Although they still have more rear grip than almost all others, maybe the best perhaps. It's a rear grip issue, and compounded by the tyre issues as well IMO, and perhaps things to do with the throttle.


My post was based on comments from Seb himself. Obviously losing the EBD is the biggest change but that means less rake, which means more understeer.

#338 handel

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 19:37

My post was based on comments from Seb himself. Obviously losing the EBD is the biggest change but that means less rake, which means more understeer.


What were the comments from Seb out of interest? Can you link?

Instinctively I would have thought the issue was the oversteer introduced by lack of downforce at the rear. It was said last year multiple times that Vettel coped brilliantly with an understeering car.

#339 Cavani

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 20:21

i think you can call seb The EBD champion. or the high rake grippy rear end champion

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#340 bourbon

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 21:44

i think you can call seb The EBD champion. or the high rake grippy rear end champion


I think we'll stick with Youngest Double World Champion since it is most accurate.

There are various issues with the car that Seb has raised, some of which Mark has seconded. Everything on this BB is guesses beyond the minimal stated fact (as to the affect and degree on their driving), so it is just a fun exercise to guess what is going on. Meaning it isn't possible to reach conclusions (or conjure valid titles) or get at the truth.;)

I think both drivers will grow toward the car as it comes to them as the season progresses. That is the natural order of things. Sometimes it happens quickly, other times, more slowly. The EBD was and old regulation we have kissed goodbye, like many others. However, you have to think that those which are added or remain have to be integrated into the new driving style. So it isn't just about what is lost, it is also about additions and what remains.

Edited by bourbon, 05 April 2012 - 21:46.


#341 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:31

I think we'll stick with Youngest Double World Champion since it is most accurate.

+1.


#342 sanjiro

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:40

Both of SVs WDC are more valid to me than LHs WDC (handed to him by a VERY questionable move by Toyota)

But...
Cars change and the changes dont suit all drivers.

Its early days yet, and RBR have not had a chance to fix/tweak or alter the car much from its first Friday run in Australia.

If they can sort the car out, it will be SV who comes out on top for one simple reason.
EVEN if MW out Qed SV in every race this year it will not make up for dropping 4 places before T1.

#343 AFistfulofEastwood

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:48

Vettel and Webber are great drivers abd i think over the season one of them can take the title in an inferior car to the Mclaren.

My mule dont like people laughin

#344 karne

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:54

Both of SVs WDC are more valid to me than LHs WDC (handed to him by a VERY questionable move by Toyota)


What? Glock was on slicks on a progressively wetter track. He did everything he could. Hamilton and Vettel were on inters. Of course they were ridiculously faster. The very fact that Glock DIDN'T stop for inters was what put Hamilton behind him in the first place.

EVEN if MW out Qed SV in every race this year it will not make up for dropping 4 places before T1.


:rolleyes: And how many places did he lose off the startline in Malaysia, Sanjiro?

#345 Dunder

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:58

Both of SVs WDC are more valid to me than LHs WDC (handed to him by a VERY questionable move by Toyota)

But...
Cars change and the changes dont suit all drivers.

Its early days yet, and RBR have not had a chance to fix/tweak or alter the car much from its first Friday run in Australia.

If they can sort the car out, it will be SV who comes out on top for one simple reason.
EVEN if MW out Qed SV in every race this year it will not make up for dropping 4 places before T1.


What was the questionable move by Toyota?

#346 karne

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:01

What was the questionable move by Toyota?


The conspiracy theorists believe that Glock deliberately moved over to give Hamilton the title.

#347 AFistfulofEastwood

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:03

The conspiracy theorists believe that Glock deliberately moved over to give Hamilton the title.


If this is true then Mclaren and Toyota need to be fined and Hamilton stripped of his title.

#348 ForeverF1

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:08

Lewis Hamilton and Toyota have nothing to do with this thread. Please stay on the topic of Vettel vs Webber.

#349 redbullrb8

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:08

In a few races time vettel will be back to winning form.


#350 Cult

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:34

Vettel has been struggling with the car but he will get there. I've been impressed with Webber so far but can't help but feel the general direction of the team is towards Seb. Just hearing them talk, it's all about developing the car for Seb and his preferences, his strategies are often better and so are the pitstops. It's sad for Mark that he'll lose so many points this year due to strategy and several of the intangibles that have been mentioned before.

Both great drivers but I'd like to see Mark come out on top this year.

Edited by ForeverF1, 06 April 2012 - 12:42.
Removed portion about Toyota.