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Vettel vs Webber 2012


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#351 joshb

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:39

Vettel and Webber are great drivers abd i think over the season one of them can take the title in an inferior car to the Mclaren.

My mule dont like people laughin


It may sound like I'm bull$hitting but I reckon a lot of people refuse to rate Mark in an attempt to put Seb down and take away any gloss from his achievements.
I remember those before 09 saying Webber would roast Vettel alive, he would dominate him and get into his head a la Pizzonia and co. Now the same people have gone the opposite.

Whether or not they're good enough to take the title if the car is inferior may only be found out later (though if they do the RB will be a second clear no doubt) but the Mclaren drivers are class acts, as are many of the other drivers and its going to be interesting with RB being the hunters not the hunted.

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#352 sanjiro

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:44

:rolleyes: And how many places did he lose off the startline in Malaysia, Sanjiro?



Dont roll your eyes at me... its rude

He did rather well at Malaysia (do I have to point out that untill the end of 2010 I was a foaming MW fan)
I just have little to NO expectation of him being able to start well in more 1/5th of the races


Edited by ForeverF1, 06 April 2012 - 12:51.
Stay on the topic of Vettel vs Webber.


#353 FPV GTHO

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 16:31

What were the comments from Seb out of interest? Can you link?

Instinctively I would have thought the issue was the oversteer introduced by lack of downforce at the rear. It was said last year multiple times that Vettel coped brilliantly with an understeering car.


IMO you misheard or its just plain wrong. Vettel's strength is his ease at driving with an oversteer balance. Its recognised as being part of a naturally faster driving style and is shared with drivers like Hamilton, Schumacher and Raikkonen. Drivers like Alonso, Kubica and Button dont have that ease with oversteer.

#354 fatd

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 20:08

Vettel has been struggling with the car but he will get there. I've been impressed with Webber so far but can't help but feel the general direction of the team is towards Seb. Just hearing them talk, it's all about developing the car for Seb and his preferences, his strategies are often better and so are the pitstops. It's sad for Mark that he'll lose so many points this year due to strategy and several of the intangibles that have been mentioned before.

Both great drivers but I'd like to see Mark come out on top this year.


i agree with you with the strategies and the pitstops, but i don't think that the car development is towards seb. we get the impression that the team are developing the car more towards seb's likings, but i think it's more because the spotlight falls on him. seb was the one who complained more about the car, hence more questions to the team are asked about 'how are the team doing in solving seb's problems', the media was just highlighting seb more in relation to the car.

#355 sanjiro

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:07

after 2 weeks of winter testing between 2008 and 2009
HM came out and announced SVs way is faster and MW would have to adapt to SV way
2 weeks into 2009 CH announced that MW was having trouble adapting to the way the car was developed
at the end of 2009 HM and CH both announced that SV was the future of the team and that the 2010 car would be developed around SV
Over the 2010 season HM CH and AN made comments about SVs style being the direction of car development.

Now I dont care if this was the right thing for the team to do
Or how vindicated they have been by that move

It still happened and it will continue to happen in 2012
So, MW has a few races at most before they drag his car into SVs sweet spot and MW is struggling again

#356 choyothe

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:29

It may sound like I'm bull$hitting but I reckon a lot of people refuse to rate Mark in an attempt to put Seb down and take away any gloss from his achievements.
I remember those before 09 saying Webber would roast Vettel alive, he would dominate him and get into his head a la Pizzonia and co. Now the same people have gone the opposite.


Whether or not they're good enough to take the title if the car is inferior may only be found out later (though if they do the RB will be a second clear no doubt) but the Mclaren drivers are class acts, as are many of the other drivers and its going to be interesting with RB being the hunters not the hunted.


Of course your not BSing, that's one of the most obvious turn of events we've seen happen here lately. It's the same as Ham-fans attitude change towards Button, but even more extreme. I'd say 95% of the posters saying Mark is a terrible driver care more about how the team-mate battle has made Seb look like than they actually care about what Mark is doing.

#357 HoldenRT

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:50

after 2 weeks of winter testing between 2008 and 2009
HM came out and announced SVs way is faster and MW would have to adapt to SV way
2 weeks into 2009 CH announced that MW was having trouble adapting to the way the car was developed
at the end of 2009 HM and CH both announced that SV was the future of the team and that the 2010 car would be developed around SV
Over the 2010 season HM CH and AN made comments about SVs style being the direction of car development.

Now I dont care if this was the right thing for the team to do
Or how vindicated they have been by that move

It still happened and it will continue to happen in 2012
So, MW has a few races at most before they drag his car into SVs sweet spot and MW is struggling again

Not necessarily.. it's possible but sometimes cars have ingrained certain traits and/or strengths and weaknesses and sometimes these remain no matter how many updates you throw at a car. It's why some cars are always doomed to be slow (or wear down the tyres too much, or have poor straightline speed etc etc) no matter how many updates they throw at it.

It mightn't even be the car, it might be the regulations changes, or the tyres. Or a combination of all of the above..

Yes the car will come back more towards Seb with future updates but that doesn't mean Webber is screwed by default. Maybe the combination of regs/tyres/car just suits Webber more this season.

#358 iotar

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:56

after 2 weeks of winter testing between 2008 and 2009
HM came out and announced SVs way is faster and MW would have to adapt to SV way
2 weeks into 2009 CH announced that MW was having trouble adapting to the way the car was developed
at the end of 2009 HM and CH both announced that SV was the future of the team and that the 2010 car would be developed around SV
Over the 2010 season HM CH and AN made comments about SVs style being the direction of car development.

Now I dont care if this was the right thing for the team to do
Or how vindicated they have been by that move

It still happened and it will continue to happen in 2012
So, MW has a few races at most before they drag his car into SVs sweet spot and MW is struggling again

I generally agree with one exception. For the first time since mid 2009 RB don't have a dominant car. Even more so, they have some problems, imbalances to sort out. It means two things: very important for RB WCC won't be certain probably for the whole season. So they will need Webber score points constantly, preferably behind Vettel, but in the tight field it won't be as manageable as last season. But yes, situation after Mugello might change - see reason number 4 below.

Funny thing is that: if sound reasons were given that 2011 was strange in terms of drivers performance differences they were labelled excuses. Now after two sub par performances the weirdest possible explanation given are perfectly normal - some made up, unconfirmed low fuel "understeering" is responsible. No, no way. One: it doesn't exists. Why? RB8 is an evolution of RB5-7, the same with Pirellis that suited "adaptable" Vettel better. Two: it doesn't explain anything. There are simpler explanations for Vettel's from, in order of importance:

1. RB is not a dominant car, margin for errors disappeared.

2. Webber is not on a back-foot regarding tyre management and qualifying, see above. In every other respect Webber is the same driver as last season. And one year older.

3. Two GPs is not enough to draw conclusions

4. Very important IMO (although it's only a speculation) They had last minute changes/updates, some problems with a car. That meant no time for custom tailoring the car to Vettel's needs, base set up-wise. You know, general BS like Vettel's way is "faster", which in reality means we prefer him to win. Nothing more, nothing less.

5. Loss of blown diffuser - it gave some advantage to Vettel

6. Here we can add small (I stress small) imbalances like "understeering". Whatever the cause of this is and if it really exists

7. Tracks: China, Bahrain - less technical and easier tracks should suit the king of Singapore and Abu Dhabi more.

8. Just to be honest: Vettel, overrated as he is, can driver better, on average, than that.

#359 choyothe

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:04


...

3. Two GPs is not enough to draw conclusions

....



Then why are you drawing so many?

Nice to know the overrated Vettel will find it easier on less technical, easier tracks such as China and Bahrain, though. :rolleyes:

PS: RB7 wasn't dominant overall when you're talking about only the races (when Qs significance has dropped massively since the start of 2011). Not when it's the 2nd fastest car in 4-5 races and tied fastest (or impossible to tell) in other half a dozen. F2002 and 2004, now those were truly dominant cars.

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#360 FPV GTHO

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:45

Not necessarily.. it's possible but sometimes cars have ingrained certain traits and/or strengths and weaknesses and sometimes these remain no matter how many updates you throw at a car. It's why some cars are always doomed to be slow (or wear down the tyres too much, or have poor straightline speed etc etc) no matter how many updates they throw at it.

It mightn't even be the car, it might be the regulations changes, or the tyres. Or a combination of all of the above..

Yes the car will come back more towards Seb with future updates but that doesn't mean Webber is screwed by default. Maybe the combination of regs/tyres/car just suits Webber more this season.


One thing is right though, and that is Vettel's driving style is faster in theory than Webber's.

As for the updates, my suspicion is that the team is more focused with Vettel's direction than Webber's, but i think so far they havent really screwed Webber anywhere except perhaps last year getting into a panic and using up one of their curfew exceptions after Vettel wasnt getting on with the Nurburgring-Hungary update despite his massive lead. Even the 2010 Valencia engine maps that suited Vettel wouldve made the car overall faster.

This years regs though definately do suit Webber more. Whilst the less rear downforce should in theory benefit Vettel, the manner in which it was achieved in 2011 seemed to disadvantage Webber by removing his throttle control under braking. If theyre still blowing somewhere in the rear end Webber might be able to claw back something like he did early 2010. The qualifying balance of the car is suiting Webber at the moment but that is shifting during the race, but Webber is still racing fast. The square tyres also seem to suit Webber with their heat up and wear.

#361 Melbourne Park

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:04

after 2 weeks of winter testing between 2008 and 2009
HM came out and announced SVs way is faster and MW would have to adapt to SV way
2 weeks into 2009 CH announced that MW was having trouble adapting to the way the car was developed
at the end of 2009 HM and CH both announced that SV was the future of the team and that the 2010 car would be developed around SV
Over the 2010 season HM CH and AN made comments about SVs style being the direction of car development.

Now I dont care if this was the right thing for the team to do
Or how vindicated they have been by that move

It still happened and it will continue to happen in 2012
So, MW has a few races at most before they drag his car into SVs sweet spot and MW is struggling again


and no wonder ... this is the first car that Webber has even fitted into. In previous seasons, he's been black and blue getting out of the car. Newey an aero guy, famous for it if you do not know, and Seb is a little guy, which Newey wanted. Webber never had a show. Even the balance of the cars was designed around a lighter driver - a separate issue that also stuffed Webber. Webber's become anorexic in appearance this year - he's lost 3 kg evidently. Not that you'd look at him. If the competition had ballasted seats and driver with a set centre of gravity and a weight of 74 kg, then F1 would have a lot more quality in its driving ranks, due to the huge amount of talent that is excluded because they are not competitive in go-carts. Which F1 cars now resemble as far as driver size goes. T1's become a jockey competition. The miracle is that Webber still has pace.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 08 April 2012 - 01:06.


#362 LoudHoward

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:47

What a perfect use of the word miracle...

#363 goldenboy

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:09

and no wonder ... this is the first car that Webber has even fitted into. In previous seasons, he's been black and blue getting out of the car. Newey an aero guy, famous for it if you do not know, and Seb is a little guy, which Newey wanted. Webber never had a show. Even the balance of the cars was designed around a lighter driver - a separate issue that also stuffed Webber. Webber's become anorexic in appearance this year - he's lost 3 kg evidently. Not that you'd look at him. If the competition had ballasted seats and driver with a set centre of gravity and a weight of 74 kg, then F1 would have a lot more quality in its driving ranks, due to the huge amount of talent that is excluded because they are not competitive in go-carts. Which F1 cars now resemble as far as driver size goes. T1's become a jockey competition. The miracle is that Webber still has pace.

where did you hear that webber fits better into the RB8? Not trying to argue, just hadn't heard it yet and was surprised by that. Also hadn't heard about how it affects him during the race getting beat up a bit by the small cockpit, but makes sense I suppose.

#364 iotar

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:52

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98698

Here we go again. Newey:

In order to evaluate our most recent upgrades, we will run two different specifications of the RB8 in China on Friday. Based on feedback and preference shown by both drivers, Mark will test an updated evolution of the set-up used for the Malaysian GP, while Sebastian will run a pre-season specification. We will then compare the results."

...and then we'll chose the one that Vettel prefers, because you know... Vettel's way is "faster" (for him).

#365 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:30

...and then we'll chose the one that Vettel prefers, because you know... Vettel's way is "faster" (for him).

They could just force Vettel to use the latest spec I guess.
But Webbo was also allowed to use old start settings to be fair. All sounds quite reasonable. :)

#366 Melbourne Park

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:37

where did you hear that webber fits better into the RB8? Not trying to argue, just hadn't heard it yet and was surprised by that. Also hadn't heard about how it affects him during the race getting beat up a bit by the small cockpit, but makes sense I suppose.


Webber on our TV telecast for the Melbourne GP. And he's always very guarded and avoids being critical about things ... but since its fixed I guess he said it.

There's been various reports about his bruising issues and chassis fit issues. Strangely when he raced with cracked ribs after falling of his bicycle (first time he had ridden it since his major crash in Tasmania's "Webber Challenge"), he was criticised for the story getting out! Either way, he's gonna get criticised for letting out any negatives on the RB machines, or for that matter, any issues he has or had with them.

I find the secrecy and covering up of the real issues and what is going on inside teams, a huge bore. Now it seems mostly bulldust, run by marketing gurus who are fanatical about image and the marketing spin all aimed at benefiting their incomes and the bottom line. And also of course, stopping their competition from learning anything. We don't find out about the real car issues until the season is over, and sometimes its years later. In a so called "development" class of racing - which it barely is IMO - such bulldust puts me off the whole thing IMO.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 12 April 2012 - 01:39.


#367 bourbon

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:25

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98698

Here we go again. Newey:

In order to evaluate our most recent upgrades, we will run two different specifications of the RB8 in China on Friday. Based on feedback and preference shown by both drivers, Mark will test an updated evolution of the set-up used for the Malaysian GP, while Sebastian will run a pre-season specification. We will then compare the results."

...and then we'll chose the one that Vettel prefers, because you know... Vettel's way is "faster" (for him).


I imagine they are seeking a spec for Seb that allows him to feel more balanced in the car. Perhaps he felt more comfortable with the earlier spec, while Mark has been feeling more comfortable with the progressions.

#368 Kelateboy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:46

I imagine they are seeking a spec for Seb that allows him to feel more balanced in the car. Perhaps he felt more comfortable with the earlier spec, while Mark has been feeling more comfortable with the progressions.

There was not much data garnered from the last 2 days of winter testing in Spain, and in Malaysia for them to decide which version to be used as the benchmark for further development. Hopefully it stays dry in China because Red Bull needs some serious test data.

#369 karne

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:39

I imagine they are seeking a spec for Seb that allows him to feel more balanced in the car. Perhaps he felt more comfortable with the earlier spec, while Mark has been feeling more comfortable with the progressions.


And at the end of the day, if it had been Mark who didn't like the car, he would have been told to suck it up and get on with it, both by the team and this BB.

#370 Melbourne Park

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:17

And at the end of the day, if it had been Mark who didn't like the car, he would have been told to suck it up and get on with it, both by the team and this BB.


but ... there's nothing wrong with that. Webber is paid many millions, while most F1 drivers have to pay a minimum of 5 million Euro, per annum, for their drives. Webber is "on easy street", and he's knows that after F1, the pay cheques are going to be a fraction of what he's getting now, at least from his driving skills. And if Webber won this year's WDC, it would make Seb look like Tiger does now (the once almost invincible golfer). I suspect too, that Lewis Hamilton's marketing appeal has been diminished due to Jenson. RBR won't let that happen to Seb, the Group has too much invested in Seb's "brand". F1 is a business at the end of the day.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 12 April 2012 - 08:19.


#371 joshb

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:20

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98698

Here we go again. Newey:

In order to evaluate our most recent upgrades, we will run two different specifications of the RB8 in China on Friday. Based on feedback and preference shown by both drivers, Mark will test an updated evolution of the set-up used for the Malaysian GP, while Sebastian will run a pre-season specification. We will then compare the results."

...and then we'll chose the one that Vettel prefers, because you know... Vettel's way is "faster" (for him).


Why can't they just let the drivers use what they prefer? Let Mark use the upto date version he likes and let Seb use the version he prefers

and @MelbournePark, surely who gives a toss about Vettel's 'brand'. He isn't a marketing tool, he's a racing driver. why do they feel the need to make 'Brand Vettel'??? its pathetic.
Of course having Vettel as a driver will bring in more of his supporters and more mechandise sales etc. Of course if Webber managed to beat Vettel (or even beat him to the title) it would be a big hit for Vettel to take but things like that can happen, but I can't for the life of me think that they'll shun Webber to preserve Vettels brand of success.

Edited by joshb, 12 April 2012 - 08:26.


#372 bonjon1979a

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:21

Why can't they just let the drivers use what they prefer? Let Mark use the upto date version he likes and let Seb use the version he prefers


development. Where do you put your resources? Developing the car from the version Seb prefers or the one mark does. They can't run two programmes concurrently.

#373 mymemoryfails

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:36

development. Where do you put your resources? Developing the car from the version Seb prefers or the one mark does. They can't run two programmes concurrently.


Yet isn't that what they say they are doing in China?

mymemoryfails

#374 Zava

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:37

Yet isn't that what they say they are doing in China?

mymemoryfails

they're testing different solutions as they are/seem not sure about which one is better, not developing two totally different cars.

Edited by Zava, 12 April 2012 - 08:37.


#375 sanjiro

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:41

development. Where do you put your resources? Developing the car from the version Seb prefers or the one mark does. They can't run two programmes concurrently.



They could.
RBR choose not to.
McLaren last year mentioned several times the extent to which they had separate development programs for LH and JB ( 2 drivers with VERY different styles).
Some teams make the effort (apparently Williams used too) and some teams dont (like Ferrari RBR and Renault)

It matters not.
MW will do ok for a while and then the car will move away from him.

#376 iotar

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:34

They could just force Vettel to use the latest spec I guess.
But Webbo was also allowed to use old start settings to be fair. All sounds quite reasonable. :)


It sounds faaar from reasonable:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/98727

"The reigning world champions introduced a Sauber-style exhaust layout for the final two days of pre-season testing at Barcelona, but Vettel has not been as happy with that configuration as the version used at the beginning of testing.

Although the team is convinced that the update package delivers an improvement in laptime, it has elected to experiment with a different configuration for Vettel in Shanghai on Friday to try and understand the situation better.

And then this:
"Obviously we will then look at the data and then draw our own conclusions from there."

Horner added that he expected the data to show that the version run by Webber is better - but the team was not yet 100 per cent convinced.


Translation: better version is not better for Vettel so they waste time to recheck it.

Edited by iotar, 12 April 2012 - 11:41.


#377 iotar

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:39

I mean, they can't run two different configurations. Even testing them side by side with two cars and different drivers seems to be very expensive. Looks like "Vette's way" is not the faster one this time.

Whatever the outcome it's just a hint of how RB operates when it comes to driver's preferences. Just imagine if it were the other way round. They wouldn't waste a second.

Edit:

Missed this gem:
He also confirmed that it would be possible for the team to switch Vettel's exhaust configuration to the newer version for Saturday morning if it was deemed better, but there would be no plan for Webber to revert back to the older concept if it shows some advantage for his world champion team-mate.

:lol:

I was wrong, they can run two different configs but only for Vettel. This is too funny.

Edited by iotar, 12 April 2012 - 11:53.


#378 PoleMan

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:57

I mean, they can't run two different configurations. Even testing them side by side with two cars and different drivers seems to be very expensive. Looks like "Vette's way" is not the faster one this time.

Whatever the outcome it's just a hint of how RB operates when it comes to driver's preferences. Just imagine if it were the other way round. They wouldn't waste a second.

Edit:

Missed this gem:
He also confirmed that it would be possible for the team to switch Vettel's exhaust configuration to the newer version for Saturday morning if it was deemed better, but there would be no plan for Webber to revert back to the older concept if it shows some advantage for his world champion team-mate.

:lol:

I was wrong, they can run two different configs but only for Vettel. This is too funny.


Yeah! The bolded leaves no doubt as to what Red Bull consider "equality" between teammates. :cool:

#379 icecream

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:03

seems reasonable to me. vettel is the reigning 2x world champion. he is the future of rbr. he is their number 1 driver.



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#380 KateLM

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:11

seems reasonable to me. vettel is the reigning 2x world champion. he is the future of rbr. he is their number 1 driver.

There are two championships. It's stupid to jeopardise the WCC by deliberately not letting one driver run a faster spec, especially as they don't have the outright fastest car this year.

That said, I suspect that Webber is already comfortable that the newer spec is the quicker one for him, even if it doesn't turn out to be for Vettel. But they shouldn't have a shortage of old parts so I don't see the point of not having the option as a back-up. They really do shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to the favouritism allegations.

#381 iotar

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:25

seems reasonable to me. vettel is the reigning 2x world champion. he is the future of rbr. he is their number 1 driver.

1. He prefers the slower version. "Slower" you understand? Like in tenths of a second compared to McLaren. This is the target, not "make sure Vettel is faster than Webber". They are convinced it's not better but testing it nevertheless. You can't pretend it's not a weird situation or a problem for the team. No one else would do that. See Ferrari, for example.

2. Fine, but forget about equal equipment claim, nevermind the equal treatment.

3. If they're doing it on such a major and costly level imagine what happens in every different, smaller area.

#382 karne

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:52

Missed this gem:
He also confirmed that it would be possible for the team to switch Vettel's exhaust configuration to the newer version for Saturday morning if it was deemed better, but there would be no plan for Webber to revert back to the older concept if it shows some advantage for his world champion team-mate.


:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

No words. Simply no words right now. Except: F*CK. YOU. RED. BULL.


seems reasonable to me. vettel is the reigning 2x world champion. he is the future of rbr. he is their number 1 driver.


And he's also a spoiled brat who's throwing a temper tantrum because the car is not the fastest anymore.

If RBR are going to do it, then SAY IT. SAY MARK IS NUMBER 2. DON'T KEEP ON WITH THIS "EQUAL" BULLSH*T. DON'T TREAT US LIKE WE'RE DUMB.

#383 icecream

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:54

1. He prefers the slower version. "Slower" you understand? Like in tenths of a second compared to McLaren. This is the target, not "make sure Vettel is faster than Webber". They are convinced it's not better but testing it nevertheless. You can't pretend it's not a weird situation or a problem for the team. No one else would do that. See Ferrari, for example.

2. Fine, but forget about equal equipment claim, nevermind the equal treatment.

3. If they're doing it on such a major and costly level imagine what happens in every different, smaller area.



1. perhaps it is weird, but if their no. 1 driver feels more comfortable with an older spec part, i don't think its completely crazy to reassess development directions.

2. what they say and what they do are different things. what they say will always be marketing/publicity BS. we all know this.

3. well.. yes.


#384 bonjon1979a

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 13:06

They could.
RBR choose not to.
McLaren last year mentioned several times the extent to which they had separate development programs for LH and JB ( 2 drivers with VERY different styles).
Some teams make the effort (apparently Williams used too) and some teams dont (like Ferrari RBR and Renault)

It matters not.
MW will do ok for a while and then the car will move away from him.


They couldn't develop two completely different cars which is what you would have with such a fundamentally different exhaust solutions and remain competitive with both. Mclaren nor any other team has had such a thing that I can remember anyway.

Clever interview by Webber, praising Newey essentially saying you'd be a fool to go against what he's saying which ultimately is what Vettel's doing in wanting to revert back to the old spec exhaust.

http://www.skysports...7667055,00.html



#385 sosidge

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 14:18

So Vettel says he is unhappy with the balance of the car and wants to try an older, and according to the team, SLOWER exhaust solution.

And people are still trying to spin this into some kind of "Red Bull are screwing Webber" scenario?

Crazy.

Vettel has the balls to say he doesn't like the car and wants to try something different. He should be applauded for that.

#386 Zava

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 14:38

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

No words. Simply no words right now. Except: F*CK. YOU. RED. BULL.

it is obvious Webber is happy with the new version, why would he even want to change back?
you can interpret that message as well as "Webber has no plans to revert back blabla"

#387 iotar

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 14:48

So Vettel says he is unhappy with the balance of the car and wants to try an older, and according to the team, SLOWER exhaust solution.

And people are still trying to spin this into some kind of "Red Bull are screwing Webber" scenario?

Crazy.

Vettel has the balls to say he doesn't like the car and wants to try something different. He should be applauded for that.


I think you missed the whole point.

The goal is to find the best possible set up for the team. This is not "which driver prefers which exhaust" exercise [or at least it shouldn't be]. It's way too big and costly an exercise. Even with all their resources they can't just go back to old exhaust or even check it just because one driver prefers it. And they can't freely chose one for one driver and a second for the other.

The way Horner describes it hints strongly that the new package is not a problem, which suggests other reasons. They committed to the new one - one of the reasons they can both run it but only one driver can use the old.

Although I agree with the point someone made earlier that it's RB so nothing they say can be trusted.



#388 iotar

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 14:57

If I had to guess:

1. the chances of reverting to the old exhaust are v. small, minimal for Vettel/China

2. one of the reasons they're doing it is to find out why the new config doesn't work for Vettel while the old did, that's what a direct comparison is for, collect the data and see what can be done

#389 flyer121

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 15:45

If I had to guess:

1. the chances of reverting to the old exhaust are v. small, minimal for Vettel/China

2. one of the reasons they're doing it is to find out why the new config doesn't work for Vettel while the old did, that's what a direct comparison is for, collect the data and see what can be done


Exactly and if the old config is really slower then going back would be foolhardy whether or not it suits Vettel.

Vettel can adapt but if they are stuck with a slower benchmark for further development , they would lose any hope of the title(s) this very moment - its such a tight field!

#390 flyer121

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 15:51

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

No words. Simply no words right now. Except: F*CK. YOU. RED. BULL.




And he's also a spoiled brat who's throwing a temper tantrum because the car is not the fastest anymore.

If RBR are going to do it, then SAY IT. SAY MARK IS NUMBER 2. DON'T KEEP ON WITH THIS "EQUAL" BULLSH*T. DON'T TREAT US LIKE WE'RE DUMB.


Gotta love your posts :)
Relax , the newer is the faster one for Webber - its only Vettel who is experimenting !

BTW - Do you really get this animated while typing ?

#391 FlashMaster

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 16:13

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

No words. Simply no words right now. Except: F*CK. YOU. RED. BULL.


Drama, drama, drama. Mark's just faster with the new spec. But I guess that's not acceptable for the conspiracy theorists.

#392 HoldenRT

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 17:15

I don't see the big deal IMO.. not yet anyway.

Mark is sitting pretty at the moment.. breathe Webber fans, breathe.

#393 iotar

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 18:50

I don't see the big deal IMO.. not yet anyway.

Mark is sitting pretty at the moment.. breathe Webber fans, breathe.

Yes, but the RB drivers situation and its implications are more interesting than ever. And RB is RB, is Marko, is Mateschitz. Nothing is straightforward.

Before the season even started they basically "fired" Webber for 2013. Marko, Horner, Mateschitz - everyone was saying who should take a place at RB - a new talent from their young drivers program. It was easy last season with Webber struggling to plan that and even throw some remarks from Vergne about how he would have done no worse than him.

Everything is set up perfectly. Another season of Vettel and RB in front and Webber probably better but in a manageable position. With one of the TR's drivers to be promoted in 2013. And look what a surprise. Not only McLaren is in front but also Webber is outqualifying Vettel. Marko's quest to find reasons/excuses and to solve it has begun. New exhaust is the answer, for now.

Even if it won't last, if they have to fight for WCC, situation when Webber beats Vettel from time to time is inevitable. Even if he gets beaten but is close on pace justifying replacing him will be not easy. That's why every neutral should be rooting for Mark, just to fireworks at RB.




#394 LoudHoward

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 00:49

They were trying different specs in Malaysia, it's not a massive deal all of a sudden?

#395 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:11

it is obvious Webber is happy with the new version, why would he even want to change back?
you can interpret that message as well as "Webber has no plans to revert back blabla"


Yes that's how I read it too.

I think a few of my fellow Webber fans have put a spin on a comment that was pretty innocuous.

Having said that, the overall point many are making is correct - Vettel's not happy, so they're back-to-backing parts and whichever Vettel prefers is the way the car will be developed. And if that effects Webber's performance and results, tough.


#396 lbennie

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:22

so this all basically confirms mark is more comfortable with an unstable rear end? like the start of 2010 before the off throttle blowing was sorted?



#397 sanjiro

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:18

so this all basically confirms mark is more comfortable with an unstable rear end? like the start of 2010 before the off throttle blowing was sorted?



All we can be sure of is that when in 2009 HM said MW like his car set up like SV, so the fact that SV was the focus of development would have no negative impact on MW...
HE WAS MAKING @#$% UP

#398 lbennie

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:31

mark averaging around half a second quicker while both lapping on options at the moment. hard to tell anything from that though with the track drying out like this.

Edited by lbennie, 13 April 2012 - 03:32.


#399 Zava

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:33

mark averaging around half a second quicker while both lapping on options at the moment. hard to tell anything from that though with the track drying out like this.

according to Vettel on the radio DRS wasn't working.

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#400 DILLIGAF

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:49

I mean, they can't run two different configurations. Even testing them side by side with two cars and different drivers seems to be very expensive. Looks like "Vette's way" is not the faster one this time.

Whatever the outcome it's just a hint of how RB operates when it comes to driver's preferences. Just imagine if it were the other way round. They wouldn't waste a second.

Edit:

Missed this gem:
He also confirmed that it would be possible for the team to switch Vettel's exhaust configuration to the newer version for Saturday morning if it was deemed better, but there would be no plan for Webber to revert back to the older concept if it shows some advantage for his world champion team-mate.

:lol:

I was wrong, they can run two different configs but only for Vettel. This is too funny.


:lol: Another foot-bullet from CH. He'd really be better off saying nothing.

Mark seems happy with the newer set up whilst it seems Seb isn't convinced. But after FP i think Seb will realise the newer configuration is indeed quicker & both he & Mark will end up running the same exhaust anyway. No big deal really imho.