41 replies to this topic

[simonlewisbooks]

The debut of a CATERHAM Grand Prix car brought to mind other small-volume sports car makers who have been associated with F1 teams over the years.
Most, it has to be said, seem to be more in name-only rather than in actual hands-on involvement. And few of them created much in the way of results.

I can think of Venturi (Larrrousse) and Monteverdi (Onyx) in the 90s ISO (Williams) in the 70s Matra, ATS and DeTomaso in the 60s.

There was also Bugatti in the 50s. They had been out of motor sport for many years by that point and must have been a pretty small operation, though with big ideas!

Are there any more?

We could be tempted to add Cooper, Connaught, Alta and Lotus in the 1950s, but they, like Ferrari and Maserati, all seemed to produce road cars as an afterthought to the serious business of going racing .

[Tuboscocca]

The debut of a CATERHAM Grand Prix car brought to mind other small-volume sports car makers who have been associated with F1 teams over the years.
Most, it has to be said, seem to be more in name-only rather than in actual hands-on involvement. And few of them created much in the way of results.

I can think of Venturi (Larrrousse) and Monteverdi (Onyx) in the 90s ISO (Williams) in the 70s Matra, ATS and DeTomaso in the 60s.

There was also Bugatti in the 50s. They had been out of motor sport for many years by that point and must have been a pretty small operation, though with big ideas!

Are there any more?

We could be tempted to add Cooper, Connaught, Alta and Lotus in the 1950s, but they, like Ferrari and Maserati, all seemed to produce road cars as an afterthought to the serious business of going racing .

Simon,

slightly off topic: Eifelland, as producer of caravans??

Regards Michael

[Paolo]

Cisitalia could be in the list, had they actually entered the car.

[David McKinney]

The thread is not restricted to world championship F1, as far as I can see, so Cisitalia qualifies

[simonlewisbooks]

The thread is not restricted to world championship F1, as far as I can see, so Cisitalia qualifies

Spot on David. The non-points races so often gave rise to the most interesting/obscure entries!

[Bjorn Kjer]

Turner ?

[f1steveuk]

The other way around March sold F1 cars to customers, as did Shadow (well one to Graham Hill) so the were small volume producers, and they did build "sports" cars, if you include Can Am in that. Shall I get my coat??

Edited by f1steveuk, 19 March 2012 - 14:57.

[Phil Rainford]

Spyker ??



PAR

[scheivlak]

The debut of a CATERHAM Grand Prix car brought to mind other small-volume sports car makers who have been associated with F1 teams over the years.
Most, it has to be said, seem to be more in name-only rather than in actual hands-on involvement. And few of them created much in the way of results.

I can think of Venturi (Larrrousse) and Monteverdi (Onyx) in the 90s ISO (Williams) in the 70s Matra, ATS and DeTomaso in the 60s.

There was also Bugatti in the 50s. They had been out of motor sport for many years by that point and must have been a pretty small operation, though with big ideas!

Are there any more?

We could be tempted to add Cooper, Connaught, Alta and Lotus in the 1950s, but they, like Ferrari and Maserati, all seemed to produce road cars as an afterthought to the serious business of going racing .

Marussia?

If Matra counts, then why not McLaren

That said, I'm not sure what distinguishes Matra/ATS/De Tomaso from Cooper/Connaught/Alta/Lotus. Maybe you can explain the difference a bit further.

I'm not that sure about Ferrari sports cars being created as an afterthought to the serious business of racing either, but that is another story.

[RogerFrench]

Frazer Nash? Formula 2, anyway.

[arttidesco]

IIRC Darnval might count as a small volume manufacturer certainly smaller than most mentioned here and their badge/logo appeared on the nose of the #29 at the Austrian GP in 1972 :-)

Edited by arttidesco, 19 March 2012 - 16:21.

[arttidesco]

Oh and I forgot Ligier who built city cars and the JS2 Sports Car

[arttidesco]

The other way around March sold F1 cars to customers, as did Shadow (well one to Graham Hill) so the were small volume producers, and they did build "sports" cars, if you include Can Am in that. Shall I get my coatS??

That list might include Lola too if I understand you correctly Steve

[f1steveuk]

That list might include Lola too if I understand you correctly Steve

Art, sometimes I don't understand me!!!

[scheivlak]

The other way around March sold F1 cars to customers, as did Shadow (well one to Graham Hill) so the were small volume producers, and they did build "sports" cars, if you include Can Am in that. Shall I get my coat??

Not before you include BRM then as well

[werks prototype]

Ginetta?

Gordini?

Edited by werks prototype, 19 March 2012 - 17:41.

[BRG]

How about Fittipaldi - there were definitely some VW based road cars sold in Brazil.

[fatbaldbloke]

Aston Martin.

[f1steveuk]

Aston Martin.

Might not qaulify as small production??

[garyfrogeye]

How about McLaren I undertand that they are a low production sports car maker.

[scheivlak]

Ginetta?

A Ginetta F1 car?
That's new to me.

[werks prototype]

A Ginetta F1 car?
That's new to me.

Well, there is a tenuous link. A proposal I think.

[D-Type]

Not F1, but Grand Prix - Veritas and AFM produced sports cars before making single seaters

Scarab must qualify

Did Cegga make a sports car before their unsuccessful Cegga-Maserati F1 car

Do Sauber qualify?

[JtP1]

Might not qaulify as small production??

Aston Martin at the time they built their F1 car, had probably built fewer cars than Caterham.

[arttidesco]

Art, sometimes I don't understand me!!!

[helioseism]

Well, in my mind, there is an Italian outfit in F1 that is a small-volume sports car maker...

[Allan Lupton]

We could be tempted to add Cooper, Connaught, Alta and Lotus in the 1950s, but they, like Ferrari and Maserati, all seemed to produce road cars as an afterthought to the serious business of going racing .

Connaught started with sports cars, developed from the Lea-Francis Sports. They, the L types, were of course sports-racing cars but, as was the custom of the time, were roadworthy and driven to and from the races. From memory there were six of them, and of course the Lea-Francis engine was developed almost beyond recognition into the engine for the Formula 2 A type. They later produced a couple of AL/SR sports-racers that had more in common with the A type than with the earlier sportscars.

ETA Alta and Lotus, too, started with sports cars

Edited by Allan Lupton, 20 March 2012 - 09:08.

[simonlewisbooks]

I think the key difference here is 'sports cars' for the road and 'sports-racing cars' (Connaught, Cooper etc) primarily intended for the track.

And while in some cases F1 teams had built one-off or prototype road cars the question is : Did they put them into actual production as such? The McLaren M6GT for example?

Marque by marque I'd say

Ferrari started off with sport-racing cars and single seaters. The road cars grew, almost grudgingly from what I read, out of neccesity and customer pressure
Maserati ditto
Lotus probabaly much the same - I guess the 6 was the first one not intended purely as a trials or sport-racing car?
Connaught Only really made Sports-racers, never seriously marketed as road cars
Cooper ditto
Scarab ditto
Sauber surely sports racers only prioer to F1?

On the other hand...

Alta Built pukka road cars plus racing cars
Matra ditto
Aston Martin ditto
Frazer Nash ditto
Turner ditto
Spyker ditto (in name at least)
Ligier There were road cars prior to the F1 team? An certainly subsequently.

The questionable ones would be...

ATS I think the F1 cars came first and did they do proper road cars? Or just sports-racers?
de Tomaso I think the F1 car (one/two - off?) came some years before the road cars?
Fittipaldi interesting - didn't know they'd marketed any road cars. Tell us more!
Marrussia Now to prove my ignorance, I genuinely had no idea that was even a brand of car! I thought it was just a sponsor's name!

Any more spring to mind? Or any of the above you'd take issue with (I won't be offended, this is just for fun)?

[Stephen W]

Aston Martin.

Might not qaulify as small production??

Compared to Ford they will!

Well, in my mind, there is an Italian outfit in F1 that is a small-volume sports car maker...

That would be FIAT then!

Of course one has to differentiate between Road Legal sports cars and Racing Sports cars so would Porsche count?

[simonlewisbooks]

would Porsche count?

Depends on your definition of small-volume really. Porsche, like Aston, might not have been a volume maker of cars at the time (although both are now!) but they were pretty seriously established high quality makers of thoroughbred road cars before getting into F1...unlike some of the others

[Sharman]

If it is pushed to th ultimate conclusion one would have to nominate Elva via Trojan to McLaren

[arttidesco]

I think the key difference here is 'sports cars' for the road and 'sports-racing cars' (Connaught, Cooper etc) primarily intended for the track.



The questionable ones would be...

de Tomaso I think the F1 car (one/two - off?) came some years before the road cars?


Any more spring to mind? Or any of the above you'd take issue with (I won't be offended, this is just for fun)?

Wow ! the 1962 de Tomaso F1 was news to me the year before the Vallelguna

I still think Darnval should be in this list they produced at least one road car and at least one sports racer, complete with Repco power around the time of their involvement with the Darnval Connew Racing Team

[arttidesco]

Where do Williams and Jordan fit in to this scheme of things the 3800 Clio Williams and 500 Civic Jordan's are relatively small volumes by Renault and Honda Standards ?

[simonlewisbooks]

Middlebridge...
Owners at one time of both Brabham and Middlebridge (nee Reliant) Scimitar.

I should have remembered them earlier, being a former SE5A owner myself.

[BRG]

Fittipaldi interesting - didn't know they'd marketed any road cars. Tell us more!

After further delving, I think I got it wrong. The Fittiapldi brothers did build karts and some sports racers, but not apparently any road cars. I had long had half an idea that they had built some VW based kit-car type products, but I think I misunderstood the true facts. Sorry for trailing a red herring across the thread!

[arttidesco]

After further delving, I think I got it wrong. The Fittiapldi brothers did build karts and some sports racers

and not least the fearsome Fittipaldi 3200 VW Bimotor

[RStock]

OSCA

[simonlewisbooks]

OSCA

Did they do normal road cars or, like Cooper and Connaught, sports-racers intended mostly for competition work?

[wenoopy]

Berardo Taraschi ran(briefly) one of his 750 cc Giaur sports cars with wings removed and a supercharged added in the 1954 Formula 1 Rome GP. I gather it was singularly unimpressive, and he soon reappeared in an old V12 Ferrari variously modified over the next 3 seasons in minor Italian F1 races.

Giaur and its predecessors Giannini and Urania were small sports cars which were certainly run in road events in Italy.

[D-Type]

I think what was originally intended was those who made sports cars before producing GP cars. Which then led to the sub division into road cars and sports racers, which can be a bit of a grey area.

[David McKinney]

That's not what the opening post says

[Tuboscocca]

If it wasn't already mentioned ALPINE (France) ...made a F1 A350.

Regards Michael